Sorcs Need Nerfs in PVP Same as DK and WW

XVestigeXx · August 21

I know a lot of you are going to to say "Oh nooo don't nerf, only buff the lower classes" etc etc but I really don't care about that opinion for two reasons: 1. Power creep is a real problem with that philosophy and 2. Its a lot easier to nerf down one class than buff up four.

On top of this sorc is in the power creep range and has been overperforming for at least 2 years now. They simply have everything without giving up anything. There are hordes of sorcs everywhere on live servers now especially that DK and WW are getting their much needed nerfs. (though it could be said Sorc's class masteries were what was enabling WW to be so OP).

Sorc has some of the most burst damage and pressure in the game, more than even NB about the same as dk pre nerf AND it can deal that dmg at range, its tankier than most classes, Its the most mobile class in the game. It has the best unblockable and undodgeable stun in the game. It has infinite sustain, The best passives on par with DK, and the best class masteries Better than DK.

On top of this Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds possible on it that are so much better than anything possible on any of the other 4 classes that its such an outlier it needs hammered back down along with DK and WW. Like the dot sorcs for instance, its just the same old same old thing where you build tanky, let your dot procs do the damage and kill everything and if someone does try to burst you just streak away and hit your new burst heal from scribing that sorc should not have.

Sorc's whole thing was it was very strong in most aspects but lacked a burst heal unless they went with the pet. Now people just use the wield soul burst heal and i don't think sorc having access to this is fair without a rebalance to the rest of the class or some buffs to the other scribed abilities.

Sorc having healing soul is like giving non-templar classes cleansing ritual as a scribed ability

Seriously, this would be like giving NB a fantastic cleanse. This needs to be looked at

To reiterate, I don't care about this "don't nerf, only buff" mentality because I think its shortsighted and not well thought out nor good for the game and will eventually detract from the overall fun from playing pvp. If everyone ends up having infinite sustain, one shot damage, and invincibility, then the game will not be fun and we are getting pretty close to this with the reworks and sorcs current state.

Please nerf sorc too Zos

XVestigeXx · August 21

Just realized I posted this in general and not Public test server feedback. I guess it doesn't matter as i don't see how to delete this and move it there or if its even a big deal either way. Anyway thanks for coming to my TED talk

BardokRedSnow · August 21

"Nooo dont nerf" is what I would say normally. Now though with yet another nerf thread coming up instead I'm just saying to everyone, I told you so. It never ends.

Its like when you're shaving your beard and you took a little too much off on one side, so you try and even it out on the other, except now that side looks too low, and you keep going until you ruin your beard, or you stop and leave it be.

The forums here always choose to keep cutting.

In my opinion they should undo the dk and werewolf nerfs and just keep sorc strong, and then bring up a class or two with class masteries periodically instead of undoing the very point of the class refreshes which is to undermine and and dismantle the subclass meta.

If they cant do that, sorc being nerfed is pretty much inevitable

Firstmep · August 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

"Nooo dont nerf" is what I would say normally. Now though with yet another nerf thread coming up instead I'm just saying to everyone, I told you so. It never ends.

Its like when you're shaving your beard and you took a little too much off on one side, so you try and even it out on the other, except now that side looks too low, and you keep going until you ruin your beard, or you stop and leave it be.

The forums here always choose to keep cutting.

In my opinion they should undo the dk and werewolf nerfs and just keep sorc strong, and then bring up a class or two with class masteries periodically instead of undoing the very point of the class refreshes which is to undermine and and dismantle the subclass meta.

If they cant do that, sorc being nerfed is pretty much inevitable

I personally don't think combating the power creep introduced by subclassing/class refresh/masteries is to inject even more power creep.

As it pertains to DK, I would prefer a more dot oriented approach for pvp, over stacking burst.
The whole fire/dragon based identity of dk screams burning to me, not flashy explosions layered on top of each other.

As WW has shown you can have a high pressure dot kit that is more than capable of feeling like burst damage, albeit in the forms of bleeds for example.

Another thing is sustain, the difference in sustain between the top classes and the rest is absolutely insane rn, and the issue I have with COF for example that by its nature it lends itself towards permablocking. We have been down that road before when heavy armor was much stronger than it is now, I personally didn't find that meta fun either.

But tbh the first thing I'd like to see being reigned is health scaling effects for pvp, specifically heals and shields.
I still remember in the old days in.pve endgame when we had to have an actual tank healer dedicated, and it was the expectation from tanks that they survive thru mitigation mostly.
The amount of self healing thru max HP has really skyrocketed, and if newer endgame encounters are tailored around that, then i think that's a flaw in design.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · August 21

It's a lot easier to remove Subclassing and revert the DK back to 3 roles again too. So it matches the other 6 Classes. That would be a good place to start.

Its a self inflicted problem stemming from the same people over and over again. Everything you nerf, will just require more nerfs by this logic. The problem now is, if this continues with the refreshes, everything you nerf will break up nearly every role on every character because they've been separated on account of the broken cherry picking Subclassing system. It's already spilled over into PvE as usual and people are fed up with it. Just like with Shattered Path.

11 Years of nerfs have not created balance. And they never will. Targeting every reworked Class, like the 2 that aren't even 6 months old is not a good selling point for everyone who is fed up with their characters having been destroyed. And everyone can now see what is happening that their reworks are being gutted because people like you died and don't like what killed them. If this is what will happen to every reworked Class, people will not stay with Eso. Nerfs are absolutely disastrous for the game.

Another point is, maybe it's easier to just eliminate PvP because they aren't the majority of the game population. Nerfs are taking the fun away from everyone who enjoys WW. From everyone who enjoys DK. Not just in PvP, in PvE now too because of it. Nerfs will never be good for the game. And now you want to upset people who like Sorcerer? Who is next, Templars? Then who, Necros? The nerfs need to stop.

Radiate77 · August 21

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

… The problem now is, if this continues with the refreshes, everything you nerf will break up nearly every role on every character because they've been separated on account of the broken cherry picking Subclassing system...

11 Years of nerfs have not created balance. And they never will. Targeting every reworked Class, like the 2 that aren't even 6 months old is not a good selling point for everyone who is fed up with their characters having been destroyed. And everyone can now see what is happening that their reworks are being gutted because people like you died and don't like what killed them. If this is what will happen to every reworked Class, people will not stay with Eso. Nerfs are absolutely disastrous for the game.

Sounds like we’ve not had balance in all of those 11 years, so remind me again how Subclassing had anything to do with it? Wasn’t that introduced two years ago? What about the other 9 years that we’ve had singular class metas where 6/7 classes were completely dead-to-rights in PvE or PvP?

Last I checked there was always a trade-off when Subclassing. You lose passives to gain passives. You lose actives to gain actives.

Refreshing all seven of the starter classes was bound to happen with or without Subclassing, as the game would never find any semblance of balance while classes were an identity mess, with DLC ones being Skill Line divided by role and base game classes having an amalgam of roles interjected into each Line.

At the end of these Refreshes, the game will be more balanced than it ever could have been, with or without Subclassing, so stop shamelessly coming after the system just because it gives you the “ick”.

XVestigeXx · August 21

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

It's a lot easier to remove Subclassing and revert the DK back to 3 roles again too. So it matches the other 6 Classes. That would be a good place to start.

Its a self inflicted problem stemming from the same people over and over again. Everything you nerf, will just require more nerfs by this logic. The problem now is, if this continues with the refreshes, everything you nerf will break up nearly every role on every character because they've been separated on account of the broken cherry picking Subclassing system. It's already spilled over into PvE as usual and people are fed up with it. Just like with Shattered Path.

11 Years of nerfs have not created balance. And they never will. Targeting every reworked Class, like the 2 that aren't even 6 months old is not a good selling point for everyone who is fed up with their characters having been destroyed. And everyone can now see what is happening that their reworks are being gutted because people like you died and don't like what killed them. If this is what will happen to every reworked Class, people will not stay with Eso. Nerfs are absolutely disastrous for the game.

Another point is, maybe it's easier to just eliminate PvP because they aren't the majority of the game population. Nerfs are taking the fun away from everyone who enjoys WW. From everyone who enjoys DK. Not just in PvP, in PvE now too because of it. Nerfs will never be good for the game. And now you want to upset people who like Sorcerer? Who is next, Templars? Then who, Necros? The nerfs need to stop.

This is a disingenuous and rage bait post imo. I mean really? I say Sorc needs to be tamped down a bit and now you want to remove PvP and attack my gameplay? Really childish. The sorc nerfs are needed. I would nerf sorc and limit subclassing as a whole personally to only one subclassed skill line

StackonClown · August 21

'I died' - please nerf

XVestigeXx · August 21

StackonClown wrote: »

'I died' - please nerf

You are downplaying the truth because it would negatively effect your ego being carried by a class even though it would be positive for every other customer who doesn't play a sorc. Perfect example of accusing others of what you are guilty of

Zyaneth_Bal · August 21

Keep out! Biohazard!

RedMamba · August 21

No buff other classes not nerfs are needed

LadyGP · August 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

"Nooo dont nerf" is what I would say normally. Now though with yet another nerf thread coming up instead I'm just saying to everyone, I told you so. It never ends.

Its like when you're shaving your beard and you took a little too much off on one side, so you try and even it out on the other, except now that side looks too low, and you keep going until you ruin your beard, or you stop and leave it be.

The forums here always choose to keep cutting.

In my opinion they should undo the dk and werewolf nerfs and just keep sorc strong, and then bring up a class or two with class masteries periodically instead of undoing the very point of the class refreshes which is to undermine and and dismantle the subclass meta.

If they cant do that, sorc being nerfed is pretty much inevitable

Just remove subclassing from PvP.

Easy.

IncultaWolf · August 21

StackonClown wrote: »

'I died' - please nerf

Nerf whatever kills me in pvp 🤡

CalamityCat · August 21

So after months of calls for DKs and WWs to be nerfed, they get nerfed and now sorc is the new strongest class. So obviously they need a nerf now lol. I'm genuinely laughing at this, because it was entirely predictable that we'd end up here. Sorcs were obviously strong, but PvPers were determined to get DKs and WWs nerfed anyway. Now it's "aaaargh sorcs are everywhere!!" Seriously, what else was going to happen?

I think it's better to buff the weaker classes so there are choices in what we use to fight the strongest builds. Not topple one meta class and then crown another then another ad nauseum. I don't see how the nerf cycle is the best way forward.

If we nerf sorcs now, what is everyone going to use to fight the newly refreshed warden when it goes live? You'll probably create a meta for existing wardens if you take out sorcs and DKs with nerfs. I remember all the previous crying about charm, so might I suggest being careful what you wish for here?

XVestigeXx · August 21

CalamityCat wrote: »

So after months of calls for DKs and WWs to be nerfed, they get nerfed and now sorc is the new strongest class. So obviously they need a nerf now lol. I'm genuinely laughing at this, because it was entirely predictable that we'd end up here. Sorcs were obviously strong, but PvPers were determined to get DKs and WWs nerfed anyway. Now it's "aaaargh sorcs are everywhere!!" Seriously, what else was going to happen?

I think it's better to buff the weaker classes so there are choices in what we use to fight the strongest builds. Not topple one meta class and then crown another then another ad nauseum. I don't see how the nerf cycle is the best way forward.

If we nerf sorcs now, what is everyone going to use to fight the newly refreshed warden when it goes live? You'll probably create a meta for existing wardens if you take out sorcs and DKs with nerfs. I remember all the previous crying about charm, so might I suggest being careful what you wish for here?

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

RedMamba · August 21

Buff Warden, Templar, Necro, Arcanist and NB before anymore nerfs.

XVestigeXx · August 21

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

Why should I go hump a test dummy to get you your spreadsheet when anybody who plays pvp knows what I'm saying to be true? Besides the sorcs who just like that their class is meta
[edited to remove quote]

hoangdz · August 21

XVestigeXx wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

Why should I go hump a test dummy to get you your spreadsheet when anybody who plays pvp knows what I'm saying to be true? Besides the sorcs who just like that their class is meta

Who said hump a test dummy? All my tests are done vs actual players of various skill levels, and I am asking you to do the same. Go duel every Sorc and DK, record your duels, post the CMX data of each duel and include their DPS/top damage sources.

If you cannot provide that, then your claims are baseless and purely emotional. The only thing I would agree with you is that Conservation of Energy's healing output is busted. Everything else is a non-issue and purely solvable by being better at the game.
[edited to remove quote]

Major_Mangle · August 21

RedMamba wrote: »

Buff Warden, Templar, Necro, Arcanist and NB before anymore nerfs.

Nah, extreme outliers regardless of who they belong to should be adjusted instead of just throwing the "Hurr durr buff everything to absurdity". Constant power-creep is what got the game in the current mess it´s in (for both PvE and PvP).

XVestigeXx · August 21

Major_Mangle wrote: »

RedMamba wrote: »

Buff Warden, Templar, Necro, Arcanist and NB before anymore nerfs.

Nah, extreme outliers regardless of who they belong to should be adjusted instead of just throwing the "Hurr durr buff everything to absurdity". Constant power-creep is what got the game in the current mess it´s in (for both PvE and PvP).

Yep. The problem is most people don't take the long view or have any vision for what the balance should actually be or the implications of just buffing everything constantly over and over again until everyone is a walking demigod. I think a good example of power creep is Destiny 2 and how crazy powerful players got in that game at the end. But many ESO players honestly don't even know whats good for them and whats not. Add into this the problem with zos not knowing either and you get the current state of the game

aLi3nZ · August 21

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

IncultaWolf · August 21

CalamityCat wrote: »

So after months of calls for DKs and WWs to be nerfed, they get nerfed and now sorc is the new strongest class. So obviously they need a nerf now lol. I'm genuinely laughing at this, because it was entirely predictable that we'd end up here. Sorcs were obviously strong, but PvPers were determined to get DKs and WWs nerfed anyway. Now it's "aaaargh sorcs are everywhere!!" Seriously, what else was going to happen?

I think it's better to buff the weaker classes so there are choices in what we use to fight the strongest builds. Not topple one meta class and then crown another then another ad nauseum. I don't see how the nerf cycle is the best way forward.

If we nerf sorcs now, what is everyone going to use to fight the newly refreshed warden when it goes live? You'll probably create a meta for existing wardens if you take out sorcs and DKs with nerfs. I remember all the previous crying about charm, so might I suggest being careful what you wish for here?

Honestly I thought that was the direction zos was going with these class refreshes. For months I never thought DK needed nerfs when I saw how strong werewolf was and could compete against it. I figured eventually every reworked class would feel as strong but with the layoffs and delays I guess we're back to this endless cycle of nerfs.

IncultaWolf · August 21

RedMamba wrote: »

Buff Warden, Templar, Necro, Arcanist and NB before anymore nerfs.

Too late. Coming for sorc nerfs next 🤫

NovelliESO · August 21

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

I agree for the most part, and have made a pretty similar argument. Having such strong resource gain in CoF that isn't even locked behind a class mastery is much more powerful. The biggest argument people make when they realize the math on CoE vs. CoF isn't what they initially thought, is that sorc still has streak and frag. but every single sorc who will kite with streak has to deal some sort of ranged damage and a lot of it is mitigated directly with DK's overloaded wings, not to mention whip is much harder to reactionarily dodge than frag.

WuffyCerulei · August 21

I will be firm when I say this: Sorcerer’s essentially been the same for years, albeit the class’s strength fluctuates depending on what small handful of changes happen in a patch. “Nerf sorc” has been a constant thing I’ve seen for pretty much a decade. There’s been a multitude of nerfs that always bring sorc down a notch. Streak used to be undodgeable. Shields used to last like 20 seconds and stacking Hardened Ward with the light armor shield made them unkillable. Shields also used to not be critable and didn’t have a health cap. Rune Cage used to deal a crap ton of damage on top of being an undodgeable AND unblockable stun.
The counter’s pretty much been the same: eat up their stamina. A decent melee build generally dunks on most sorcs, aside from the sweaty ones who only live in PVP. If a sorc streaks away, no one said you have to chase them too. A lot of sweats want you to chase them so they can pull you away from the group.
Now I must ask: how do you expect PVE will be affected by nerfing sorc into the ground? It wouldn’t be good, based off what I’ve seen in the past 10 years. PVE’s pretty much always suffered because PVPers scream the loudest, though fortunately they’re not completely listening to PVPers most now (not discounting the prevalence of DKs and WWs in PVP rn, I’m not blind). A lot of changes in the past really gutted PVE builds and diversity because PVPers tend to whine the loudest and most often. Why not give possible examples on using Battle Spirit or the target being a Player over just screaming for blanket nerfs? Like I’m getting tired of this, grandpa.

XVestigeXx · August 21

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I will be firm when I say this: Sorcerer’s essentially been the same for years, albeit the class’s strength fluctuates depending on what small handful of changes happen in a patch. “Nerf sorc” has been a constant thing I’ve seen for pretty much a decade. There’s been a multitude of nerfs that always bring sorc down a notch. Streak used to be undodgeable. Shields used to last like 20 seconds and stacking Hardened Ward with the light armor shield made them unkillable. Shields also used to not be critable and didn’t have a health cap. Rune Cage used to deal a crap ton of damage on top of being an undodgeable AND unblockable stun.
The counter’s pretty much been the same: eat up their stamina. A decent melee build generally dunks on most sorcs, aside from the sweaty ones who only live in PVP. If a sorc streaks away, no one said you have to chase them too. A lot of sweats want you to chase them so they can pull you away from the group.
Now I must ask: how do you expect PVE will be affected by nerfing sorc into the ground? It wouldn’t be good, based off what I’ve seen in the past 10 years. PVE’s pretty much always suffered because PVPers scream the loudest, though fortunately they’re not completely listening to PVPers most now (not discounting the prevalence of DKs and WWs in PVP rn, I’m not blind). A lot of changes in the past really gutted PVE builds and diversity because PVPers tend to whine the loudest and most often. Why not give possible examples on using Battle Spirit or the target being a Player over just screaming for blanket nerfs? Like I’m getting tired of this, grandpa.

Because I thought it was a given when I wrote the title "Sorcs Need Nerfs in PVP Same as DK and WW" that it would not effect pve. I don't want any pvp changes to hurt pve and I want all nerfs to be pvp only

XVestigeXx · August 21

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

CalamityCat · August 21

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

XVestigeXx · August 21

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

Why can't the refreshed classes be refreshed in a balanced state and not wildly OP like DK was? Why is the starting point Being something thats in the clouds compared to the rest of the classes?

RedMamba · August 21

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

Why can't the refreshed classes be refreshed in a balanced state and not wildly OP like DK was? Why is the starting point Being something thats in the clouds compared to the rest of the classes?

Week 3 PTS is already over and they rarely make changes after that. You just need to move until U52.

Adrastus · August 21

this guy has to b

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

i thought this was the plan, bc if they constantly nerf without updated/temporary class mastery whats the point of rework other than to have better graphic visuals.... unless the plan was to make sure you cant animation cancel things at all on the low.

op is a rage baiter always asking for nerfs