MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

How is the moderator allowing this bait? Literally made zero points in the discussion and just added bait. And wings might be powerful, but let's stop pretending:

0. Sorcs aren't OP in nearly every context of the game, or what was said about it and WW isn't true

1. That DK is the only class that a Sorc might encounter in PvP

2. That Sorcs currently aren't mobile siege engines capable of escaping no matter what because DoT damage isn't a threat anymore

3. Saying a ranged setup vs. DK is an easy matchup in open world is also a poor comparison because most open world DK builds lack speed, lack gapclosers, etc. -- this is a general observation over 1000s of fights on PC NA and EU. Most are not running gap closers. Actually , the majority of PvP players aren't.

This makes skills like streak / BoL extremely powerful in that context when the only counter it has isn't really being slotted.

Now we can argue that is player behavior and build decisions at work, but it doesn't discount the reality that in this current patch and the next one there really isn't anything challenging sorc mobility, esp. considering the previous counters were DoT damage and high damage ranged skills (which no really only exist on sorc go figure).

It's literally the same issue as DK: you have to be one to counter one. And yet sorc players come here and spew insults at others pointing it out?

I don't want to get started on sorc, because if I do it will deffo result in a nerf. So please, keep the bait and insults down because if not then we have to start speaking in-depth about sorc and you know where it will lead to: a nerf. That's why you guys are defending it so hard with bait instead of an actual argument.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

Fengrush is correct and this response to him just feels like rage bait/ insults that are attempting to skirt the rules. Fengrush is entirely correct about sorc. It needs a nerf and I fear Sorc will get WW nerfed more than it should be

As bait as that response was to him, and it is, Fengrush's comment that was being responded to wasn't entirely accurate. CoE is locked behind a class mastery, meaning you have to be full sorc to get it. That isn't a big sacrifice if something is outright broken and allows you to perform better than you otherwise would going an alternative, but while it is strong compared to the sustain of most classes, it's not even the best in the game.

DK, the class it is being juxtaposed to, is just better outright. CoF, DK's unique resource return from the ardent flame line isn't tied to any class mastery, so it can be accessed by any class that wants to use it. I'm not going to compare CoE to CoF if the user had the same resource pool, if I did, CoF would win by a mile, so instead I'll take a sorc running around 50k mag and getting 1k mag back per cast, to a DK running only 25k stam.

I will even use the nerfed values of CoF on PTS, never mind the actual value on live that is even stronger. CoF returns 12% every 2 seconds over 4 seconds, it also restores an initial 12% just for pressing the skill, so 3 ticks in 4 seconds. If you want to hit the breakeven point of 1,000 per second, all you would have to do is cast CoF at around half stamina. If you cast CoF when your stamina pool is completely empty, even though it doesn't snapshot, it would still average around 2,000 stamina returned a second. At around 10,000 stamina left, which is still 40% of your resource pool, it's restoring around 1,200 per second. Keep in mind, this is the nerfed version on PTS, and its on a 25,000 stamina pool DK which I am comparing with a 50,000 mag pool, and it still beats it in these scenarios. Now, CoE doesn't have to be casted, but like I said, CoF can be used by anyone and it even deals damage at the end of it's duration. This is just the resources returned on a base skill, DK still has access to class masteries beyond this. The benefit to sorc is being able to do this mostly self sustained damage from afar, but like was mentioned earlier, DK has the ability to press wings and mitigate a huge portion of that damage.

When sorc gets "reworked" this will be a different conversation, but based on balance at this current moment, or even what's on PTS, while players may want sorc to get a small adjustment in it's sustain, DK has greater potential sustain while not even being tied to a class mastery. I have said this before on other threads, but double dipping into landslide on DK if you decide to go pure DK, is a much stronger alternative than sorc. Sorc just excels in a lower skill ceiling, or uncoordinated play, where people can be at range and apply pressure, which causes players to panic since they don't know how to deal with it.

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. No pure sorc is utilizing their class kit to get grotesque damage unless they utilize the stuff outside of their class kit. Watch their class masteries get nerfed and they go back to being pea shooters like we always have been. I've been a sorc main forever, and these people who see stuff from the outside don't get that the one sorc method to make them do stuff isn't even because they're a sorc. It's just because their class masteries are a crutch to prop up the absolutely *** skills they were given.

And now we have to use those *** skills for another 6 months, with the inevitable nerf coming to turn us yet again into pea shooters with infinite sustain. I don't see how Sorcs are strong when all we can do is stay alive and shoot peas. I feel like it's more about how we can be good *tanks* but dealing damage? Absolutely not. Especially to those not wanting to utilize blood for blood.

And I'm not moving the goalposts here but, if we are only able to kill other classes that aren't WWs or sorcs or Dks, maybe sorcs aren't the problem, aye? Maybe it's just that the developers made a mistake releasing class refreshes one at a time, and now everyone has to suffer on their mistake.

Warden rework isn't happening until Jan 2027. It is likely that sorc rework won't happen until this time next year.

CoolAsh wrote: »

.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. Sorcerer is strong precisely because it has **Streak, and maybe Crit Surge and Hurricane**. You’re right about that. Sorcerer has not only its incredible passives and Class Mastery, but also these extremely powerful skills.

Have you actually looked at Arcanist’s offensive skills? Its skill kit is barely enough to put together a normal PvP build. Most Arcanists you see right now are running burst builds that rely heavily on skills from other skill lines.

Every class has some skills that are simply not viable in PvP. This isn’t something unique to Sorcerer.

Right now, the NO.1 player on the Kill/Death leaderboard in PC/NA Battlegrounds is a Sorcerer. That player is a pure Sorcerer—not a Werewolf build, and he is not using the Vampire spammable either.

Sorcerer’s skill damage is definitely not low. At this point, I’m actually getting annoyed whenever I hear the sound effect of that Sorcerer damage skill, because it means I’m about to lose a huge chunk of health even while blocking.

Sorcerer’s sustained pressure is simply very strong: attack your opponent from range, and when they get close, Streak away while continuing to attack during the time they spend trying to close the distance.

Dragonknight is obviously very strong in the current patch as well, but DK builds are almost entirely built around Heart of Flame and the Whip. When it comes to build diversity, Sorcerer is arguably number one among all classes. Ranged Sorcerer, melee Sorcerer, burst Sorcerer... there are a lot of different ways to play it.

Sorcerer wasn’t exactly struggling even before Class Mastery was introduced.

Some people have brought up Warden’s **Wings** as evidence that Warden is strong. But you have to remember that you can still be hit while using Wings to escape, whereas Streak can simply avoid a lot of incoming damage altogether. In that sense, isn’t Streak effectively another form of projectile damage mitigation?

By the same logic, any other class that builds Streak is essentially doing the same thing as a class that builds Heart of Flame. That means these kinds of universally powerful skills should also be subject to nerfs.

So you also admit that sorc is one of the only classes that has a leg up on DKs and WWs not because of their power, but because of their class masteries and the proxy of other classes being unbuffed? You would rather see Sorc join the other classes and not have a leg to stand on while DK and WW continue to take the reigns? Because that is essentially what most folks in the forums seem to want. Is backwards refresh changes.

This isnt a Sorc problem, it has never been a Sorc problem. This is simply a smear campaign by current DKs, and former Warden charmers and former gankers because they dont want to see Sorc have a leg to stand on. I completely disagree that their skills are powerful, I have been using this class since it came out and there was only one era, pre crystal frag nerf, where sorc burst damage was good. Just because people play melee and dont know how to counter a Sorc doesnt make sorc broken. Instead, there should just be more ranged counters. There should also be a stam negate, but thats another argument for another day.

Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes, so now the question becomes, what classes would you be happy being decent in PvP until all the refreshes are out? because it will always be select fews and other people will constantly complain that it isnt their class that is dragonborn. Its always the same case when Sorc has one build thats useful against the meta builds, nerf them into obscurity, because the developers clearly hate them. We are even *** in PvE, because all we have is a disgusting parse that doesnt really worrk on real content.

Leave sorc alone. I am still having to use wretched vitality or rokska in no cp PvP if I put all attribute points into health.

Yes, buff nightblade, necro and anything not dk. Nightblade getting only 5% crit damage is weak.

Arcanist class masteries seemed of no help for PvP.

Unsure on warden and necro but don’t be cutting their buffs in half by battle spirit.

The masteries for sorc are good. But if they nerf them people will just go back to subclassing. And sorc is heavily penalised with less damage for not spotting sorc skills.

CoolAsh wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. Sorcerer is strong precisely because it has **Streak, and maybe Crit Surge and Hurricane**. You’re right about that. Sorcerer has not only its incredible passives and Class Mastery, but also these extremely powerful skills.

Have you actually looked at Arcanist’s offensive skills? Its skill kit is barely enough to put together a normal PvP build. Most Arcanists you see right now are running burst builds that rely heavily on skills from other skill lines.

Every class has some skills that are simply not viable in PvP. This isn’t something unique to Sorcerer.

Right now, the NO.1 player on the Kill/Death leaderboard in PC/NA Battlegrounds is a Sorcerer. That player is a pure Sorcerer—not a Werewolf build, and he is not using the Vampire spammable either.

Sorcerer’s skill damage is definitely not low. At this point, I’m actually getting annoyed whenever I hear the sound effect of that Sorcerer damage skill, because it means I’m about to lose a huge chunk of health even while blocking.

Sorcerer’s sustained pressure is simply very strong: attack your opponent from range, and when they get close, Streak away while continuing to attack during the time they spend trying to close the distance.

Dragonknight is obviously very strong in the current patch as well, but DK builds are almost entirely built around Heart of Flame and the Whip. When it comes to build diversity, Sorcerer is arguably number one among all classes. Ranged Sorcerer, melee Sorcerer, burst Sorcerer... there are a lot of different ways to play it.

Sorcerer wasn’t exactly struggling even before Class Mastery was introduced.

Some people have brought up Warden’s **Wings** as evidence that Warden is strong. But you have to remember that you can still be hit while using Wings to escape, whereas Streak can simply avoid a lot of incoming damage altogether. In that sense, isn’t Streak effectively another form of projectile damage mitigation?

By the same logic, any other class that builds Streak is essentially doing the same thing as a class that builds Heart of Flame. That means these kinds of universally powerful skills should also be subject to nerfs.

So you also admit that sorc is one of the only classes that has a leg up on DKs and WWs not because of their power, but because of their class masteries and the proxy of other classes being unbuffed? You would rather see Sorc join the other classes and not have a leg to stand on while DK and WW continue to take the reigns? Because that is essentially what most folks in the forums seem to want. Is backwards refresh changes.

This isnt a Sorc problem, it has never been a Sorc problem. This is simply a smear campaign by current DKs, and former Warden charmers and former gankers because they dont want to see Sorc have a leg to stand on. I completely disagree that their skills are powerful, I have been using this class since it came out and there was only one era, pre crystal frag nerf, where sorc burst damage was good. Just because people play melee and dont know how to counter a Sorc doesnt make sorc broken. Instead, there should just be more ranged counters. There should also be a stam negate, but thats another argument for another day.

Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes, so now the question becomes, what classes would you be happy being decent in PvP until all the refreshes are out? because it will always be select fews and other people will constantly complain that it isnt their class that is dragonborn. Its always the same case when Sorc has one build thats useful against the meta builds, nerf them into obscurity, because the developers clearly hate them. We are even *** in PvE, because all we have is a disgusting parse that doesnt really worrk on real content.

“Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes.”

That statement itself implies that Sorcerer already had the ability to counter them before the rework. So if Sorcerer was already capable of doing that before the refresh, what happens after the refresh? The real question is: **why does Sorcerer have to be the only class capable of doing it?**

I want to see the gap between all classes become smaller, rather than having three strong options and only nerfing two of them.

Why not look at it from the opposite perspective? Right now, players have to deal with three strong options: Sorcerer, Dragonknight, and Werewolf. After the update, they would only have to deal with one strong option: Sorcerer. Is that really what you want to see?

I’m playing Sorcerer myself now, so I understand very well what makes it strong.

If ESO could maintain a class balance cadence similar to WoW, where every class gets a chance to become the strongest for a short period and the top spot rotates between classes, players who main weaker classes wouldn’t be as likely to quit simply because their class remains weak for a long time.

Besides, we already know that Dragonknight and Werewolf are going to be nerfed. So nerfing Sorcerer would simply make the gap between all three of these classes and the other classes smaller. How does this suddenly become “Sorcerer will be completely unplayable” whenever Sorcerer players talk about it?

When hybrid builds were first introduced, almost every serious duelist would incorporate a Sorcerer skill line into their build. Doesn’t that tell you something about how strong Sorcerer was?

Why don’t you try playing some other classes before discussing whether Sorcerer is actually strong? Try a pure Templar, pure Necromancer, pure Arcanist, and then compare them with a pure Sorcerer.

Every person who argues against nerfing Sorcerer focuses almost exclusively on Dragonknight and Werewolf. Doesn’t that actually prove how irrelevant the weaker classes have become?

That’s why I said earlier: maybe ZOS should just delete all the other classes and leave Sorcerer, Werewolf, and Dragonknight. Or just leave Sorcerer.

People are always extremely sensitive whenever the word “nerf” comes up. That is also part of how ESO ended up with its current level of power creep—the game has continually catered to players’ ever-increasing expectations for power.

You believing that Sorcerer shouldn’t be nerfed isn’t going to change my mind. If ESO continues to handle class balance this way, more and more players will eventually make their own choices.

And I’ll make mine too.

I never said I don't believe sorc should be nerfed, my opinion is actually more egregious. I think they should remove the refreshes entirely and go back to right after the subclassing update in terms of balance. And then give us all the refreshes(as well as the ones they took away) when they finish working on the last one instead of releasing them one by one. Going things the current method is clearly making all players exhausted, even the ones using the refreshed classes. It's also giving them more work, as they have to balance the in between, so they kinda messed themselves up doing it this way. It'll be a horrible battle of buff nerf cycles everytime the player base isn't happy with a classes power level if they continue doing it one by one. And the people who have the refreshed classes will be the ones attempting to nerf other classes, as we clearly see right now.

But alas, we are already stuck in this hole. I genuinely guarantee that sorc will not be the most oppressive after this update, the DKs will still reign supreme. The DK nerfs are not that aggressive in my honest opinion. Werewolves as well still to an extent.

Sorc hasn't been great since they nerfed them into the ground 10+ updates ago. I had to make my sorc competitive before class mastery with subclassing, because they play like *** with their only good skill line being Storm Calling(which is mostly a defensive and healing line, because mages wrath nowadays is kinda bad) and one singular skill called crystal frags from one other line. AND you can only exploit them through one methodology. They're not good just because some great player is good with the class. Thats not how you measure a classes strengths.

Sorc is good at mobility, defense, and sustain. The other stuff only happens on a REALLY REALLY GOOD sorc player, because that's how class expertise should reward those that practice using the class.

If you're not good with sorc, you get punished. That's how it should be.

On the other hand, you only get moderately slapped on the wrist with the current DK if you're not good with a DK

You only get punished a tiny bit if you're not good with werewolf.

And if you play any of the other classes well.. yeah you get punished just for existing. Save for warden, they're still formidable sometimes.

It's so unhinged to me that people want to bring down the ceiling of the best players, but refuse to acknowledge when classes power outweighs their punishments. Sorcs balanced against its own detriment. It doesn't have oppressive power like DK, it just has all sustain. How does all sustain equal strength? It doesn't. The Sorc hate is unfounded, by people who just get annoyed by having to fight one. It was the same kind of vibe towards when Templar was formidable. It is the same kind of hate I see towards Werewolves.

But there is one thing we can agree on, all other classes should be brought up to their level. I don't care about them being harder to delete with the refreshed classes, but you need to give player choice in how they fight, and there is only three player choices right now out of seven that make you formidable in PvP.

In terms of power creep? *** it, they won't fix the actual issue which is scaling up difficulty every new dungeon and trial update, so just go full send if they don't want to stop scaling up difficulty based on the score pushers being good at the game.


This game punishes good players. It punishes knowledgeable players. This is why so many people have left, and will continue to leave.

Faltasë wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. Sorcerer is strong precisely because it has **Streak, and maybe Crit Surge and Hurricane**. You’re right about that. Sorcerer has not only its incredible passives and Class Mastery, but also these extremely powerful skills.

Have you actually looked at Arcanist’s offensive skills? Its skill kit is barely enough to put together a normal PvP build. Most Arcanists you see right now are running burst builds that rely heavily on skills from other skill lines.

Every class has some skills that are simply not viable in PvP. This isn’t something unique to Sorcerer.

Right now, the NO.1 player on the Kill/Death leaderboard in PC/NA Battlegrounds is a Sorcerer. That player is a pure Sorcerer—not a Werewolf build, and he is not using the Vampire spammable either.

Sorcerer’s skill damage is definitely not low. At this point, I’m actually getting annoyed whenever I hear the sound effect of that Sorcerer damage skill, because it means I’m about to lose a huge chunk of health even while blocking.

Sorcerer’s sustained pressure is simply very strong: attack your opponent from range, and when they get close, Streak away while continuing to attack during the time they spend trying to close the distance.

Dragonknight is obviously very strong in the current patch as well, but DK builds are almost entirely built around Heart of Flame and the Whip. When it comes to build diversity, Sorcerer is arguably number one among all classes. Ranged Sorcerer, melee Sorcerer, burst Sorcerer... there are a lot of different ways to play it.

Sorcerer wasn’t exactly struggling even before Class Mastery was introduced.

Some people have brought up Warden’s **Wings** as evidence that Warden is strong. But you have to remember that you can still be hit while using Wings to escape, whereas Streak can simply avoid a lot of incoming damage altogether. In that sense, isn’t Streak effectively another form of projectile damage mitigation?

By the same logic, any other class that builds Streak is essentially doing the same thing as a class that builds Heart of Flame. That means these kinds of universally powerful skills should also be subject to nerfs.

So you also admit that sorc is one of the only classes that has a leg up on DKs and WWs not because of their power, but because of their class masteries and the proxy of other classes being unbuffed? You would rather see Sorc join the other classes and not have a leg to stand on while DK and WW continue to take the reigns? Because that is essentially what most folks in the forums seem to want. Is backwards refresh changes.

This isnt a Sorc problem, it has never been a Sorc problem. This is simply a smear campaign by current DKs, and former Warden charmers and former gankers because they dont want to see Sorc have a leg to stand on. I completely disagree that their skills are powerful, I have been using this class since it came out and there was only one era, pre crystal frag nerf, where sorc burst damage was good. Just because people play melee and dont know how to counter a Sorc doesnt make sorc broken. Instead, there should just be more ranged counters. There should also be a stam negate, but thats another argument for another day.

Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes, so now the question becomes, what classes would you be happy being decent in PvP until all the refreshes are out? because it will always be select fews and other people will constantly complain that it isnt their class that is dragonborn. Its always the same case when Sorc has one build thats useful against the meta builds, nerf them into obscurity, because the developers clearly hate them. We are even *** in PvE, because all we have is a disgusting parse that doesnt really worrk on real content.

“Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes.”

That statement itself implies that Sorcerer already had the ability to counter them before the rework. So if Sorcerer was already capable of doing that before the refresh, what happens after the refresh? The real question is: **why does Sorcerer have to be the only class capable of doing it?**

I want to see the gap between all classes become smaller, rather than having three strong options and only nerfing two of them.

Why not look at it from the opposite perspective? Right now, players have to deal with three strong options: Sorcerer, Dragonknight, and Werewolf. After the update, they would only have to deal with one strong option: Sorcerer. Is that really what you want to see?

I’m playing Sorcerer myself now, so I understand very well what makes it strong.

If ESO could maintain a class balance cadence similar to WoW, where every class gets a chance to become the strongest for a short period and the top spot rotates between classes, players who main weaker classes wouldn’t be as likely to quit simply because their class remains weak for a long time.

Besides, we already know that Dragonknight and Werewolf are going to be nerfed. So nerfing Sorcerer would simply make the gap between all three of these classes and the other classes smaller. How does this suddenly become “Sorcerer will be completely unplayable” whenever Sorcerer players talk about it?

When hybrid builds were first introduced, almost every serious duelist would incorporate a Sorcerer skill line into their build. Doesn’t that tell you something about how strong Sorcerer was?

Why don’t you try playing some other classes before discussing whether Sorcerer is actually strong? Try a pure Templar, pure Necromancer, pure Arcanist, and then compare them with a pure Sorcerer.

Every person who argues against nerfing Sorcerer focuses almost exclusively on Dragonknight and Werewolf. Doesn’t that actually prove how irrelevant the weaker classes have become?

That’s why I said earlier: maybe ZOS should just delete all the other classes and leave Sorcerer, Werewolf, and Dragonknight. Or just leave Sorcerer.

People are always extremely sensitive whenever the word “nerf” comes up. That is also part of how ESO ended up with its current level of power creep—the game has continually catered to players’ ever-increasing expectations for power.

You believing that Sorcerer shouldn’t be nerfed isn’t going to change my mind. If ESO continues to handle class balance this way, more and more players will eventually make their own choices.

And I’ll make mine too.

I never said I don't believe sorc should be nerfed, my opinion is actually more egregious. I think they should remove the refreshes entirely and go back to right after the subclassing update in terms of balance. And then give us all the refreshes(as well as the ones they took away) when they finish working on the last one instead of releasing them one by one. Going things the current method is clearly making all players exhausted, even the ones using the refreshed classes. It's also giving them more work, as they have to balance the in between, so they kinda messed themselves up doing it this way. It'll be a horrible battle of buff nerf cycles everytime the player base isn't happy with a classes power level if they continue doing it one by one. And the people who have the refreshed classes will be the ones attempting to nerf other classes, as we clearly see right now.

But alas, we are already stuck in this hole. I genuinely guarantee that sorc will not be the most oppressive after this update, the DKs will still reign supreme. The DK nerfs are not that aggressive in my honest opinion. Werewolves as well still to an extent.

Sorc hasn't been great since they nerfed them into the ground 10+ updates ago. I had to make my sorc competitive before class mastery with subclassing, because they play like *** with their only good skill line being Storm Calling(which is mostly a defensive and healing line, because mages wrath nowadays is kinda bad) and one singular skill called crystal frags from one other line. AND you can only exploit them through one methodology. They're not good just because some great player is good with the class. Thats not how you measure a classes strengths.

Sorc is good at mobility, defense, and sustain. The other stuff only happens on a REALLY REALLY GOOD sorc player, because that's how class expertise should reward those that practice using the class.

If you're not good with sorc, you get punished. That's how it should be.

On the other hand, you only get moderately slapped on the wrist with the current DK if you're not good with a DK

You only get punished a tiny bit if you're not good with werewolf.

And if you play any of the other classes well.. yeah you get punished just for existing. Save for warden, they're still formidable sometimes.

It's so unhinged to me that people want to bring down the ceiling of the best players, but refuse to acknowledge when classes power outweighs their punishments. Sorcs balanced against its own detriment. It doesn't have oppressive power like DK, it just has all sustain. How does all sustain equal strength? It doesn't. The Sorc hate is unfounded, by people who just get annoyed by having to fight one. It was the same kind of vibe towards when Templar was formidable. It is the same kind of hate I see towards Werewolves.

But there is one thing we can agree on, all other classes should be brought up to their level. I don't care about them being harder to delete with the refreshed classes, but you need to give player choice in how they fight, and there is only three player choices right now out of seven that make you formidable in PvP.

In terms of power creep? *** it, they won't fix the actual issue which is scaling up difficulty every new dungeon and trial update, so just go full send if they don't want to stop scaling up difficulty based on the score pushers being good at the game.


This game punishes good players. It punishes knowledgeable players. This is why so many people have left, and will continue to leave.

Do you think two people only end up fighting each other for a long time in Revenge? It’s actually not uncommon for two players to fight for 30 minutes outside of Revenge as well. That’s a problem caused by healing and resource sustain being far too strong.

I once had a fight that lasted more than ten minutes with someone in Cyrodiil during the Gray Host campaign. It was incredibly boring. I eventually lost, of course, because I got distracted. It’s basically like a fighting game, except it’s a fighting game with something called “builds.” The strategy ultimately boils down to probing, defending, and waiting for the opponent to make a mistake. I find that kind of gameplay incredibly boring, and it gets repetitive after playing it for a while.

The point of Revenge is to slow down the pace of killing—that slower pace you were talking about. I still remember how quickly I was killed the first time I ever played PvP as a new player. And honestly, that kill speed can easily discourage new players from getting into PvP, because you keep dying before you even have a chance to understand how PvP works.

Slowing the pace down gives players more room to explore other combat strategies. I still really enjoy seeing players use things like terrain kills and other creative tactics. I don’t think new players should have absolutely no chance of defeating veterans. If a new player comes up with a clever strategy, they should have a chance to succeed. Put simply, **I like games that reward thinking; I don’t particularly enjoy games that are purely tests of reaction speed.**

I agree with you that Revenge isn’t very fun when there aren’t enough players. That’s exactly why I think ZOS went in the wrong direction from the beginning. Revenge should have been designed as an **arena mode, or even a Battleground-style mode**, rather than being tied to Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil’s map is simply too large and too flat.

On top of that, I don’t think ESO’s Battleground maps are particularly well designed either. One reason people keep focusing on kill/death ratios in Battlegrounds is that the maps themselves often don’t really serve the objectives.

Take Capture the Flag, for example. The flags are basically just placed on the ground like road signs, without much additional terrain design around them. There could be much more verticality and terrain variation built around objective locations. ESO really should learn from games that have designed genuinely interesting Battleground maps.

I also think many people quit for a different reason than what you described. It’s because the meta keeps failing to rotate toward the classes they actually enjoy playing. They don’t want to spend their time being target practice for people playing the current meta.

The people who actually leave are often those who consistently have a poor gameplay experience. As for highly skilled players, they can simply switch to whatever the current meta class is whenever necessary.

That’s why I don’t see class balance as a punishment. **It’s necessary for player balance.**

But whatever. They’ve already decided not to nerf Sorcerer in U51. As someone who also plays Sorcerer, I’m not personally losing anything from that decision. I just don’t like seeing one class become overwhelmingly dominant. Beating other players simply because I’m using an overtuned class doesn’t give me any sense of accomplishment.

Faltasë wrote: »

CoolAsh wrote: »

.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. Sorcerer is strong precisely because it has **Streak, and maybe Crit Surge and Hurricane**. You’re right about that. Sorcerer has not only its incredible passives and Class Mastery, but also these extremely powerful skills.

Have you actually looked at Arcanist’s offensive skills? Its skill kit is barely enough to put together a normal PvP build. Most Arcanists you see right now are running burst builds that rely heavily on skills from other skill lines.

Every class has some skills that are simply not viable in PvP. This isn’t something unique to Sorcerer.

Right now, the NO.1 player on the Kill/Death leaderboard in PC/NA Battlegrounds is a Sorcerer. That player is a pure Sorcerer—not a Werewolf build, and he is not using the Vampire spammable either.

Sorcerer’s skill damage is definitely not low. At this point, I’m actually getting annoyed whenever I hear the sound effect of that Sorcerer damage skill, because it means I’m about to lose a huge chunk of health even while blocking.

Sorcerer’s sustained pressure is simply very strong: attack your opponent from range, and when they get close, Streak away while continuing to attack during the time they spend trying to close the distance.

Dragonknight is obviously very strong in the current patch as well, but DK builds are almost entirely built around Heart of Flame and the Whip. When it comes to build diversity, Sorcerer is arguably number one among all classes. Ranged Sorcerer, melee Sorcerer, burst Sorcerer... there are a lot of different ways to play it.

Sorcerer wasn’t exactly struggling even before Class Mastery was introduced.

Some people have brought up Warden’s **Wings** as evidence that Warden is strong. But you have to remember that you can still be hit while using Wings to escape, whereas Streak can simply avoid a lot of incoming damage altogether. In that sense, isn’t Streak effectively another form of projectile damage mitigation?

By the same logic, any other class that builds Streak is essentially doing the same thing as a class that builds Heart of Flame. That means these kinds of universally powerful skills should also be subject to nerfs.

So you also admit that sorc is one of the only classes that has a leg up on DKs and WWs not because of their power, but because of their class masteries and the proxy of other classes being unbuffed? You would rather see Sorc join the other classes and not have a leg to stand on while DK and WW continue to take the reigns? Because that is essentially what most folks in the forums seem to want. Is backwards refresh changes.

This isnt a Sorc problem, it has never been a Sorc problem. This is simply a smear campaign by current DKs, and former Warden charmers and former gankers because they dont want to see Sorc have a leg to stand on. I completely disagree that their skills are powerful, I have been using this class since it came out and there was only one era, pre crystal frag nerf, where sorc burst damage was good. Just because people play melee and dont know how to counter a Sorc doesnt make sorc broken. Instead, there should just be more ranged counters. There should also be a stam negate, but thats another argument for another day.

Sorc is only good by proxy of being the only defense against refreshed classes, so now the question becomes, what classes would you be happy being decent in PvP until all the refreshes are out? because it will always be select fews and other people will constantly complain that it isnt their class that is dragonborn. Its always the same case when Sorc has one build thats useful against the meta builds, nerf them into obscurity, because the developers clearly hate them. We are even *** in PvE, because all we have is a disgusting parse that doesnt really worrk on real content.

“This is simply a smear campaign by current DKs, and former Warden charmers and former gankers because they don’t want to see Sorc have a leg to stand on.”

I think this argument is fundamentally flawed. Why is it that whenever someone talks about nerfing Sorcerer, people immediately assume it’s some kind of conspiracy by other players?

There are plenty of complaints about Dragonknight and Werewolf on the forums as well. Should we then say that those complaints are a conspiracy by Sorcerer players to gang up on Dragonknights and Werewolves?

If a class really wasn’t strong, people simply wouldn’t complain about it this much. It’s like how people complain about healers having too much healing, but you rarely see people complaining that healers have too much offensive power.

I have accounts for every class except Necromancer and Dragonknight, and I’ve leveled all of them to max. I’ve played PvP on all of them. So am I also secretly conspiring with other players to frame Sorcerer just because I think Sorcerer is strong?

Amazing. I didn’t even realize I was part of the conspiracy.

“Sorcs balanced against its own detriment.”

You could replace “Sorcs” in that statement with literally any other class, and the argument would still make sense.

If balance changes aren’t allowed to negatively affect highly skilled players, then what happens to new players? Does this game not need new players anymore?

Every competitive game needs to put some limits on the advantages of highly skilled players. Without ordinary players forming the foundation of the player base, how can you even demonstrate that the highly skilled players are actually highly skilled?

That’s why balancing power levels is even more important for protecting the experience of ordinary players. If players of other classes keep leaving, eventually there will be nothing left but Sorcerers fighting among themselves.

**That’s what I mean when I say players need balance too.**

The U51 nerf to Dragonknight’s power is roughly comparable to reducing the distance of Sorcerer’s Streak by 15–25%.

So based on the U51 balance changes ZOS has announced, I agree with some of the other people on the forum: **Sorcerer is going to pull far ahead of the other classes.**