MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

How is the moderator allowing this bait? Literally made zero points in the discussion and just added bait. And wings might be powerful, but let's stop pretending:

0. Sorcs aren't OP in nearly every context of the game, or what was said about it and WW isn't true

1. That DK is the only class that a Sorc might encounter in PvP

2. That Sorcs currently aren't mobile siege engines capable of escaping no matter what because DoT damage isn't a threat anymore

3. Saying a ranged setup vs. DK is an easy matchup in open world is also a poor comparison because most open world DK builds lack speed, lack gapclosers, etc. -- this is a general observation over 1000s of fights on PC NA and EU. Most are not running gap closers. Actually , the majority of PvP players aren't.

This makes skills like streak / BoL extremely powerful in that context when the only counter it has isn't really being slotted.

Now we can argue that is player behavior and build decisions at work, but it doesn't discount the reality that in this current patch and the next one there really isn't anything challenging sorc mobility, esp. considering the previous counters were DoT damage and high damage ranged skills (which no really only exist on sorc go figure).

It's literally the same issue as DK: you have to be one to counter one. And yet sorc players come here and spew insults at others pointing it out?

I don't want to get started on sorc, because if I do it will deffo result in a nerf. So please, keep the bait and insults down because if not then we have to start speaking in-depth about sorc and you know where it will lead to: a nerf. That's why you guys are defending it so hard with bait instead of an actual argument.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

Fengrush is correct and this response to him just feels like rage bait/ insults that are attempting to skirt the rules. Fengrush is entirely correct about sorc. It needs a nerf and I fear Sorc will get WW nerfed more than it should be

As bait as that response was to him, and it is, Fengrush's comment that was being responded to wasn't entirely accurate. CoE is locked behind a class mastery, meaning you have to be full sorc to get it. That isn't a big sacrifice if something is outright broken and allows you to perform better than you otherwise would going an alternative, but while it is strong compared to the sustain of most classes, it's not even the best in the game.

DK, the class it is being juxtaposed to, is just better outright. CoF, DK's unique resource return from the ardent flame line isn't tied to any class mastery, so it can be accessed by any class that wants to use it. I'm not going to compare CoE to CoF if the user had the same resource pool, if I did, CoF would win by a mile, so instead I'll take a sorc running around 50k mag and getting 1k mag back per cast, to a DK running only 25k stam.

I will even use the nerfed values of CoF on PTS, never mind the actual value on live that is even stronger. CoF returns 12% every 2 seconds over 4 seconds, it also restores an initial 12% just for pressing the skill, so 3 ticks in 4 seconds. If you want to hit the breakeven point of 1,000 per second, all you would have to do is cast CoF at around half stamina. If you cast CoF when your stamina pool is completely empty, even though it doesn't snapshot, it would still average around 2,000 stamina returned a second. At around 10,000 stamina left, which is still 40% of your resource pool, it's restoring around 1,200 per second. Keep in mind, this is the nerfed version on PTS, and its on a 25,000 stamina pool DK which I am comparing with a 50,000 mag pool, and it still beats it in these scenarios. Now, CoE doesn't have to be casted, but like I said, CoF can be used by anyone and it even deals damage at the end of it's duration. This is just the resources returned on a base skill, DK still has access to class masteries beyond this. The benefit to sorc is being able to do this mostly self sustained damage from afar, but like was mentioned earlier, DK has the ability to press wings and mitigate a huge portion of that damage.

When sorc gets "reworked" this will be a different conversation, but based on balance at this current moment, or even what's on PTS, while players may want sorc to get a small adjustment in it's sustain, DK has greater potential sustain while not even being tied to a class mastery. I have said this before on other threads, but double dipping into landslide on DK if you decide to go pure DK, is a much stronger alternative than sorc. Sorc just excels in a lower skill ceiling, or uncoordinated play, where people can be at range and apply pressure, which causes players to panic since they don't know how to deal with it.

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

@CoolAsh I am not going to reply to multiple posts on mobile. So I’m trying to summarize.

I don’t enjoy BGs. I do enjoy Cyrodiil though. The builds for each type of PvP is different. I cannot comment on sorcs in BGs because I have no recent experience with it. So if Sorc were OP in BGs they might not be in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is rarely 1v1 or in my case usually 1v10 or more. Hard to be OP in that situation.

You say my personal information on sorcs in Cyrodiil is not relevant, yet your personal information on BGs is. Do you not see the double standard here? You said yourself that you don’t play in Cyrodiil. You can’t make a decision about them by watching someone else’s video, that’s laughable.

If the devs are to make a determination on the effectiveness of sorcs they would have to evaluate both BGs and Cyrodiil to make a decision. BGs aren’t everything. The few times I have played them in the past, I kept getting grouped with or played against the same players over and over again. Hardly anyone played them on my server.

If you want to continue to focus only on BGs and ignore Cyrodiil completely again, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I play cyrodiil and BGs. Ive played sorc, ww, and dk. Sorc is enabling ww and sorc builds to have endless sustain and full offensive setups.

Sorcs are way overtuned and need to be adjusted. The alternative is boosting the sustain of every other class. Its difficult to play a sorc for more than 5 minutes and not see how ridiculous their sustain and survival is while pushing out grotesque damage from range with the highest mobility.

Theyre more oppressive than DKs to small scale players due to their unending survival if well played.

If well played. I think this is the point. I have seen a few sorcs, less than the number of fingers on one hand, that play the class extremely well in Cyrodiil. DKs and WW are all strong, and there are many of them, groups of them in fact. Sorc just climbed out of the horrid pet sorc build meta that I refused to play for so long, which wasn’t very meta at all. Hopefully the devs will see that the class is not OP when played without WW and not put it back into the trash bin like before. Streak just frustrates and annoys players and they don’t want to have to deal with the one skill sorcs have that requires others to break free, when DK has many skills that seem to do this, and WW has an aoe skill that can affect many players at once.

Someone else has already stated how Warden wings are more OP than Streak.

I dont think youre getting a good analysis of gameplay on your environment to be fair. Sorc has been great. Its top on the food chain with current pts changes.

@Fengrush You could not be more wrong. If you are playing a DK, which you are, you can press wings and mitigate this "grotesque" ranged damage by 50%. Sorc has to be pure sorc to achieve this sustain, and that's all they really gain, good sustain. DK is strong regardless of if it's a pure DK or you subclass into it and gets insane sustain from a slottable skill that's on the same line as whip . WW sustain shouldn't even be spoken about, it isn't good because of sorc, it's good because the costs of the skills are so low at the moment. You can be any class and have little to no sustain issues on WW right now.

You haven't really been able to perform near the top for a while, so I understand if your understanding of the game has been fading in concurrence with your skill, but DK is in a much better spot at this current moment. Are you just not pressing your wings on DK? Are you forgetting to hit Core of Flame and hold block? Are you running something other than whip? Are you trying to run trappings of invigoration on DK and lacking the damage needed to kill the sorc? There could be plenty of issues, but a DK vs. a ranged sorc should be an easy matchup unless you unbound your abilities and you are playing ESO with an eye tracker.

This is the thing I keep seeing. Stamsorc may be what people refer to when they say sorcs are powerful, but skills in the pure sorc class kit are really garbage. Especially if you're a Magsorc, you're basically scraping the bottom of the class barrel with this stuff. Especially when people understand that winning PVP is just a matter of playing it right with the right burst damage skills. Sorcerer may be good on a 1v1 with someone who isn't a sorc or a dk or a ww, but it really makes it obvious Sorcerer is suffering when matched up with the most broken classes in the game this meta.

Sorcerer class masteries are strong, yes, but that *is* the point because the class has really *** damage output on its own. It has bad skills in most of its trees and only a few skills that people actually use. Some stuff, like crit charge, is only good in PVE because everyone runs crit resist in PvP. All sorc has is streak, Crystal frags, curse, ward, and hurricane. It has to be propped up by scribed skills and weapon skills as well as skills from other non-class lines. It has to be propped up by gear. It has to be propped up by many things because it is missing a lot. All the skills do is tickle people unless you're using Crystal frags, and if you're not pushing sorc with the right gear, those Crystal frags still tickle people and you can't get proper burst damage even with that, weapon spam ables, AND daedric curse.

Yet you can face a DK as a sorc using full ward, maxed health, max resistances and still get deleted by multiple 11k whips in a row even post heals. Yet you can get spam locked from a WW and play a war of attrition against them for 4 hours because you can't do anything but tickle them.

Yet "Sorcs are broken"

Buncha hoity toity bs posturing in this thread and Sorcerer will always get the *** end of the stick.

Yeah the sorcs skills are all garbage except for streak, and maybe crit surge and hurricane. All the offensive skills suck. Thats why you see pure sorcs either playing werewolf or using the vampire spammable.

Exactly. No pure sorc is utilizing their class kit to get grotesque damage unless they utilize the stuff outside of their class kit. Watch their class masteries get nerfed and they go back to being pea shooters like we always have been. I've been a sorc main forever, and these people who see stuff from the outside don't get that the one sorc method to make them do stuff isn't even because they're a sorc. It's just because their class masteries are a crutch to prop up the absolutely *** skills they were given.

And now we have to use those *** skills for another 6 months, with the inevitable nerf coming to turn us yet again into pea shooters with infinite sustain. I don't see how Sorcs are strong when all we can do is stay alive and shoot peas. I feel like it's more about how we can be good *tanks* but dealing damage? Absolutely not. Especially to those not wanting to utilize blood for blood.

And I'm not moving the goalposts here but, if we are only able to kill other classes that aren't WWs or sorcs or Dks, maybe sorcs aren't the problem, aye? Maybe it's just that the developers made a mistake releasing class refreshes one at a time, and now everyone has to suffer on their mistake.

Warden rework isn't happening until Jan 2027. It is likely that sorc rework won't happen until this time next year.