U51 Feedback Thread for Classes and Abilities

Wuuffyy · August 16

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

Not to mention the added drawback of the only on-demand wep/spell heal causing you to take up to 12% increased damage. This is literally a double-whammy... smol heal and make-more-squish.

Chrlynsch · August 16

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

I’ve always thought Hircine’s Rage should have been a HoT. As the aggressive morph, giving it a Vigor-style heal would let you pre-cast it and maintain pressure instead of only using it reactively.

It would also create a much better risk/reward dynamic. I like the idea of Rage increasing damage taken by both you and your target because it makes the ability feel like an actual kiss/curse from Hircine. But if we’re increasing the risk, I think it should also increase your healing done.

Imagine activating Rage at full health and getting increased damage, healing, and damage taken. You become significantly more threatening, but you're also giving your opponent a bigger window to punish you. That feels much more appropriate for an aggressive werewolf morph.

At the very least, the HoT ticks could generate Blood Hunger or Fury, giving the ability some interaction with the larger werewolf resource system.

Hircine’s Fortitude already has Major Vitality and naturally fills the defensive/survival role. Rage, by comparison, mostly gives you more damage while also making your enemies hit harder. That makes its survival value feel underwhelming from almost every angle.

More broadly, I think there’s a lot of room to make Fury, Rampage, and Blood Hunger more intricate and dynamic. Even the werewolf passives could be designed in ways that create different resource-management playstyles and give each wolf more meaningful build possibilities.

Werewolf already has a unique identity. I think leaning harder into the powerful-but-dangerous blessing/curse concept could make the entire skill line much more interesting without simply pushing its numbers higher

Gupitoos · August 16

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.

After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

NxJoeyD · August 16

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.

After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

acanca · August 16

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.

After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

Not only that but also calling toning down core of flame sustain from 45% missing resources to 36% missing resources '' ruining its sustain''. I had to check the notes again to see if i missed something ...

Whats crazy is dk sustain is so good that 36% is probably still way too much. We'll have to check and see tomorrow though.

NovelliESO · August 16

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Gupitoos wrote: »

Even after the layoffs, estimates suggest ZOS may still have somewhere around 224–281 employees. Obviously, not every single one of those people works on combat or class balance, but we’re still talking about a sizeable development studio. At this point, it’s difficult to accept “lack of resources” as an excuse for the state of class balance. With proper organisation, priorities and enough people actually assigned to combat, the major class reworks could be completed in a relatively short period of time (a month even). Instead, it often feels like the problem is productivity and priorities. Like many large companies, it’s very easy for inefficiency to creep in and for people to get away with producing far less than they realistically could.

And that’s what makes the direction of ESO so frustrating. It increasingly feels as though the priority is simply to milk an established game rather than seriously improve it, and frankly, that feeling hasn’t appeared overnight. It’s been building for the better part of a decade.

Look at what has happened with Dragonknight.

DK was arguably one of the weakest classes during the subclass meta. To compete, you had DKs running ridiculous setups involving sets like Pyre and Relequen, where essentially the sets were playing the game rather than the class or the player. ZOS finally reworked DK, only to turn around and hammer it again by ruining its sustain and destroying it’s Molten Whip damage, which you know, it can be blocked anyways. Flame lash is the only good change, this thing had no reason being so busted in PVP.

Meanwhile, look at what they’re allowing elsewhere.

Werewolves can still benefit from class masteries while having enormous damage, extremely strong healing and an incredibly effective one-bar playstyle. Sorcerer, somehow continues escaping the treatment DK receives despite having some incredibly strong passives (actually strongest ones by far), infinite sustain, huge burst potential and one of the strongest mobility tools in PvP: Streak.

Streak is just ridiculous. Teleport has no room in a PvP game. With the sustain available through subclassing/masteries, Sorcs can now spam it until Jesus’s second coming while maintaining tremendous pressure as it can do 10k+ damage. Oh it’s also unblockable and undodgeable

And this is where the balancing decisions start feeling completely backwards.

Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes for less experienced players to get value from while simultaneously having an extremely high level of effectiveness in experienced hands. Yet rather than properly addressing the things that make Sorc oppressive, ZOS repeatedly seems to hit classes capable of challenging it. Whether that’s because Sorc has a huge player population, because changing it would upset too many players, or for some other reason, people can draw their own conclusions. But the result is the same: the balancing decisions on this post make increasingly little sense.

The state of ESO PvP is beyond disappointing.

The skill ceiling feels increasingly compressed. Gear, sets, CP and whatever the current overtuned interaction happens to be have far too much influence compared with individual mechanical skill. When sets and passive interactions are doing so much of the work, winning stops feeling like you outplayed somebody and starts feeling like you brought the better spreadsheet. In plain words, PvP is about gear and cp.

And now we’re apparently supposed to accept a situation where Sorcs, a class that hasn’t been reworked yet can have far better sustain than DKs, deliver damage faster and better, maintain enormous mobility through Streak, while DK gets its sustain and one of its defining offensive abilities knocked down again.

After years of this cycle, these latest changes may finally be the point where it’s simply time to move on to another game. ESO PvP could be so much better than this, which is exactly what makes watching these decisions happen over and over again so frustrating.

It’s painfully obvious too, that the people responsible for those changes and the shambles of the PVP state since subclassing, just test these changes casually and not competitively.

@ZOS_Kevin do you or anyone thats part of the PVP combat team, play PVP competitively ?

Streak is strong but Streak has proper downsides which make it fine:

Streak is only 15m in range whereas most other gap closers are 22m in range, meaning that if a Sorc Streaks away from an attacker they're not necessarily out of range.

Streak has a progressive cost, so every time a player casts it the costs increases by 33%. Even with CoE, spamming Streak is going to eat into a players pool because CoE doesn't deliver that much resource. The CoE passive definitely makes Streak more viable to cast repeatedly than it used to be but it's still not a free-for-all to just Streak spam across the map.

Streak is undodgeable and unblockable but it's not totally unavoidable. Some of the more powerful mobility skills in the game like RaT or DK & Warden's wings, all provide Expedition. Movement speed buffs are a common method of damage and status mitigation.

A player with movement speed can sometimes avoid the stun of Streak by simply strafe moving since Sreak has a wind up animation after it's cast, before the Streak takes place. Streak is a linear commitment so if a player can quickly move off sides they can potentially avoid the stun if they have enough distance between them and the caster.

Streak also doesn't provide any I-frames so Sorcs casting the skill aren't immune from damage or status effects.

Streak is a solid skill and has plenty of effectiveness but it's not as though there aren't other strong mobility skills in combat.

Not only that but also calling toning down core of flame sustain from 45% missing resources to 36% missing resources '' ruining its sustain''. I had to check the notes again to see if i missed something ...

Whats crazy is dk sustain is so good that 36% is probably still way too much. We'll have to check and see tomorrow though.

It is still much too high, but its better than nothing.

VinnyGambini · August 16

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

Fully agree, ZOS please check consercation of energy, literally every single WW is a sorcerer because of this passive. @ZOS_Kevin please check.

SugaComa · August 17

As a console player I can't test the Templar changes

From reading through posts ZOS Are Making My Templar Ideas!

Two Update 51 Templar changes match suggestions I previously posted on the ESO forums, and I’m genuinely excited to see them entering the game.

Balanced Warrior—only seven years for approval!

Back in February 2019, I suggested:

«“They should be class passives for having X number of class skills on your bar…”»

Balanced Warrior will now reward Templars for slotting Templar abilities, scale alongside armour and have no cap.

It took seven years, but we got there!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457874/do-you-like-whilst-slotted-bonus-on-active-skills

Aetheric Lancer—down to six months!

In February 2026, I complained that its activation circle appeared beneath bosses or inside “the roaring blue flames of hell” instead of somewhere useful:

«“Why aren’t you playing at my feet?”»

Update 51 will make the area generate directly on the stationary Templar.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/688997/wrathsun-is-close-to-decent-but-its-mechanics-are-hard-to-build-around

So ZOS have reduced their response time from seven years to six months. That’s incredible progress!

Granted the changes may not be me exact recommendations but if they keep improving at this rate, they should have my entire blueprint ready by the time the full Templar refresh arrives.

I just hope I haven’t forgotten anything…

Oh, yes: the passive that automatically kills Purples in Cyrodiil. I’m sure that one is already awaiting approval. ☀️

Zyaneth_Bal · August 17

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

You can’t nerf ww by nerfing conservation of energy because it’s not a ww skill.
If it’s rly that much of an issue then ww shouldn’t be able to benefit from class masteries at all, problem solved, no need to gut everything. Now you can play ww on every class equally, exactly what all of you are asking for.

VinnyGambini · August 17

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

You can’t nerf ww by nerfing conservation of energy because it’s not a ww skill.
If it’s rly that much of an issue then ww shouldn’t be able to benefit from class masteries at all, problem solved, no need to gut everything. Now you can play ww on every class equally, exactly what all of you are asking for.

Problem is not solved cuz conservation of energy still exist, and gives sorc unfair advantage. By nerfing conservation of energy 2 prblems will be solved with one update.

actosh · August 17

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

Fully agree, ZOS please check consercation of energy, literally every single WW is a sorcerer because of this passive. @ZOS_Kevin please check.

Disable classpassives for ww altogether.

ioResult · August 17

HazelnutSquash wrote: »

From my point of view, sorc and nightblade have unique PvP playstyles while everything else falls into the same (boring) brawler category. Also, no, I did not see this coming. Unlike DK, WW, and to some extent sorcs by their sustain passive, nightblade is not actually in a competitive spot in PvP.

Exactly! All of these "I play Nightblade" people are all brawlers. They're not really Nightblades. They've spent a decade floating between classes, whatever ZOS inadvertently made the cheese brawler build of the update. All they do is brawl. They don't know how to play any other play style. Face tank, run around rocks or trees, back bar heal and be a tank until resources fill back up. Press the one button scripted to do their whole burst combo. Repeat. It's all they know how to do and they design the exact same setup for whatever class has the cheese of the month. Take away Rallying Cry and whatever burst combo ZOS didn't figure out to be over-tuned for the patch and their build fails. Same every update.

But ZOS targets stealth play every single patch because PvDoor specialists, the clutch the meta brawlers and ball groupers all complain to ZOS when they died in Cyrodiil because they were careless and forgot to look for stealthies. If this extends to the devs themselves when they venture out of their trials and dungeons into open world PvP, I guess it could explain why anything involving stealth is targeted every single patch. It's a high risk high reward play style. You used to know who was on a "1vX" build and on their back bar so you would definitely not target them, because if you did, you'd die. But now this invulnerability extends to pretty much everyone now in Cyrodiil who isn't new to PvP. The builds are all on video sites for anyone to copy.

So now everyone has stacked to the sky shields plus 35, 40, 45, 50K health, and can press one skill to heal them to full after a player with 18K health that is chock full of damage, pen, and crit just emptied their full burst onto their target while they were just sitting on their horse in the middle of a field. The target dismounts, hit 1-2 skills and they're healed to full and have shields up.

It's like a friggin space ship game now. "Shields up to full power!" The funniest is to watch two people come across each other in Cyrodiil, face tank each other for 5 to 10 minutes straight, and then just give up and walk away. this happens so much now and we just sit there in stealth at distance and laugh. This is the state of open world PvP now in Cyrodiil.

But instead of fixing that, now ZOS wants to give at least two zero cooldown, constant uptime abilities to players so no one has to ever get caught unawares and die because of their lack of situational awareness in open world PvP. Is this an oversight? Or is it by choice? How stealth abilities and mechanics have been nerfed over the past 6 years might be a clue. Who knows?

Panderbander · August 17

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

You can’t nerf ww by nerfing conservation of energy because it’s not a ww skill.
If it’s rly that much of an issue then ww shouldn’t be able to benefit from class masteries at all, problem solved, no need to gut everything. Now you can play ww on every class equally, exactly what all of you are asking for.

Tell me you don't play werewolf without telling me you don't play werewolf.

Every single "problematic" werewolf in pvp out there is using sorcerer because CoE provides so incredibly much value. Those that aren't using sorc can and are stam/mag checked relatively easily. The culprit isn't werewolf, it's the damn passive like we've been saying since day 1 of the U50 pts.

Wuuffyy · August 17

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Werewolf Skill Cost Changes

The changes feel like an attempt to balance Conservation of Energy by increasing the cost of skills on Werewolf.

And i guess it does make a certain sense, sorcerer werewolf is a problem due to having an overabundance of sustain in pvp.

But this change feels terrible on Arcanist Werewolf, Warden Werewolf, Templar Werewolf, Nightblade Werewolf, DragonKnight Werewolf and Necromancer Werewolf.

So while it does somehow bring sorcerer Werewolfs sustain in line (though not even that well), it prevents the vast majority of classes from using Werewolf in pvp.

The changes to Hircine's Fortitude also feel like an attempt to bring werewolfs potential for healing more in line with other builds. But again most of the healing for a werewolf, specially a sorcerer werewolf comes from Rip and Tear and again Conservation of Energy.

This means the nerfs won't affect Sorcerer Werewolf with Conservation of Energy much as they will be able to sustain and heal relatively well with Conservaton of Energy and Rip and Tear and in the meanwhile none of the other classes will be able to use werewolf for pvp.

In my opinion this will require an other nerf further down the line because the werewolf changes miss the mark for the most part.

In my opinion the cost changes for werewolf should be reverted, rip and tear healing nerfed and hircines fortitude buffed to compensate. And finally, conservation of energy should have its healing and sustain reduced with battle spirit active.

Because the werewolf changes are very reasonable when viewed with conservation of energy sorcerer ww in mind but when wieved as 'pure' ww changes, they make the archetype borderline unplayable while leaving the biggest problem with the archetype, that being the healing on rip and tear and sorcerer conservation of energy class mastery, alone.

I actually 100% agree with the assessment here. Nerf Conservation of Energy (it's not just problematic on werewolves) and reallocate healing power from the passive Rip and Tear into Hircine's Fortitude/Rage.

I'd argue in addition to the reallocation that Hircine's Rage requires additional scaling. There's no reason I should have 6k+ WD and still see Fortitude pulling better numbers when the build is clearly leaning towards damage at that point. The current system just incentivises high health even more.

You can’t nerf ww by nerfing conservation of energy because it’s not a ww skill.
If it’s rly that much of an issue then ww shouldn’t be able to benefit from class masteries at all, problem solved, no need to gut everything. Now you can play ww on every class equally, exactly what all of you are asking for.

This doesn’t exactly accomplish that either. You essentially force every player on werewolf back to subclsssing (the same 3 to maybe 5 lines at that).

So we go from having identity in our class to none what-so-ever.

With that being said, I’d rather the kit function and if them undoing the nuclear sustain changes that also affect PvE means they instead reduce/zero masteries for PvP- then I say go ahead and nuke masteries for werewolf in PvP.

Right now as it stands, everyone will be a sorc next patch (because Sorc is clearly the ‘over the top’ problem they were hunting for) and then it will be hit with more blanket nerfs when werewolf ‘still sustains too well’ anyway.

Solariken · August 17

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

ArctosCethlenn · August 17

NovelliESO wrote: »

It is still much too high, but its better than nothing.

They should at least knock another 3 or 4% rss off per tick while battle spirit is active. probably change HOF's healing back to missing health from max, too.

Kazajhan · August 17

I was thinking about the effect of the Werewolf stamina costs on endgame PvE, after hearing some verbal discussions in my guild.

Werewolf is very effective in PvE veteran trials. I mean, I'm not playing that well, so I could improve my DPS, but it's certainly viable.

Pounce as a gap closer is going to be...way too expensive. I use Pounce to "stay on target" in fights where the boss teleports around. I describe my style as "leaping"; I use a gap closer on almost every class I play. Pounce went from 4,016 to 1,071 in Update 50 to ease Werewolf play, and the current increase is too high. Think balance, not teeter-totter.

Rending Claws / Bloodclaw is my best AoE attack, and group leaders want AoE attacks slotted and used. 235% increase in cost is just way too much.

Please consider at least moderating the changes. Thanks.

DrMedBorn · August 17

From the latest patch notes “ Fixed an issue where if you performed a light attack with a Two-Handed weapon in first person view, you would occasionally be pushed into third person view temporarily.”

Omfg finally, thank you!!!🙏

Militan1404 · August 17

Solariken wrote: »

Balanced Warrior changes are pretty neat. BUT, Templar is already a little overloaded defensively, so to make room for the new Balanced Warrior, please consider nerfing Living Dark heal a wee bit.

Are you really asking for templar nerfs allready? And what whats make living dark so op i am realy curious to know??Templar has no mobility and and no sustain and one of the worst delayed burst of all classes, and if its supposed to be the stand your ground class it needs to be tanky as heck. compare that to sorc that has all the things templar lacks. And also with plar you could even go 12k wep and spell dmg and ti wouldnt make a diffrence becouse of how badly most of the skills scale with it.

Compare living dark to vigor and tell me why would anyone use living dark instead of vigor if you nerf it more?

And read the changes again? Its a big nerf to templar, not a buff

HazelnutSquash · August 17

ioResult wrote: »

It's a high risk high reward play style. You used to know who was on a "1vX" build and on their back bar so you would definitely not target them, because if you did, you'd die. But now this invulnerability extends to pretty much everyone now in Cyrodiil who isn't new to PvP. The builds are all on video sites for anyone to copy.

So now everyone has stacked to the sky shields plus 35, 40, 45, 50K health, and can press one skill to heal them to full after a player with 18K health that is chock full of damage, pen, and crit just emptied their full burst onto their target while they were just sitting on their horse in the middle of a field. The target dismounts, hit 1-2 skills and they're healed to full and have shields up.

10 years ago nightblades, mostly stamblades tbh, were dangerous. They were squishy, they were killable, but I found you had to match your game to their playstyle. Your brain needed to speed up. Nightblades were said to have a learning curve and high skill ceiling. To an extent, they brought that learning curve with them, if you ended up in a 1v1 with one. You had to play like them. You ended up feeling squishy, due to their high damage, while they were naturally squishy, if they specced for such damage. You arguably had to master the game more in terms of base game mechanics, blocking, dodge rolling, and decision speed than against other classes. Even more so, if you were ganked, of course.

These days, when a nightblade tries that, it so easily ends badly for the nightblade. I've lately played a "Dragdenplar", an AOE burst build. Good build, albeit not the tankiest brawler. Sure, the nightblade that attacked me chunked a fair bit out of me. However I could sit back, block a little and rattle off my AOE combo, knowing full well that I'm tankier than them, that my burst would hit through any dodge rolls (unlike theirs), and that Heart of Flame would heal me as part of the combo. Merciless Resolve technically does the same, but whatever it is, relative nightblade damage just isn't "there" when you consider how squishy they typically get to achieve their damage.

I am not saying that winding back the clock is what the game needs, by the way. I'm just musing on where we've ended up. I think there is an alternative way to balance the game, which includes bringing sustain back into the equation. I actually liked the last Vengeance test. Not Vengeance as it is now, on live, but Vengeance with set bonuses. Not perfect, but the resource game was back. You could die, if you didn't manage those properly. It felt more like the game old, but with high enough health that you wouldn't die immediately to a gank.

madmufffin · August 17

I really don't understand why the armor aspect of Balanced Warrior was dialed back so far with this incremental. What's the point of "uncapping" it when you have to have 70k resistances and 4 Templar skills just to hit the old value now. At 1% + 75 per Templar skill it at least made the class not feel like it has been kneecapped by the loss of minor sorcery. With this calc, you're better off just running a fighter's guild skill 99% of the time.

Radiate77 · August 17

Balanced Warrior needs to scale more aggressively, earlier on.

At present; this thing is terrible.

madmufffin · August 17

Radiate77 wrote: »

Balanced Warrior needs to scale more aggressively, earlier on.

At present; this thing is terrible.

All they needed to do was give the old 6% and then 1% of your armor sum. There's no reason we had to get this watered down overly wordy version of it. If you build a bunch of resistances, your naturally wd/sd goes down hurting your 6%. If you build for max wd/sd for the 6%, you lose the value of the 1% portion. It's not like you can feasibly stack both. Templar getting a juiced wd/sd passive isn't going to magically fix the classes laundry list of issues.

Firstmep · August 17

Balanced warrior: same build, I gained over 7k armor and about 200 spell damage. Not really the offensive buff I was hoping for. I like the flat spell damage gained for Templar abilities but altogether it's a very minor offensive buff and a fairly large defensive one.

acanca · August 17

Sustain Changes on Core of Flame

With the current changes its possible to basically perma block with around 26k stamina.

My sustain permanently blocking 6+ mobs for around 2.5 minutes is stable at around 25%.

I took around 300 hits in around 2.5 minutes, which caused around 1-2 times for block to drain stamina per second. This is less than the maximum 3 times activation per second but around on par with what you would experience during combat unless absolutely swarmed.

So in conclusion, the changes are absolutely noticeable and definitely a step in the right direction but the sustain from core of flame is still way too strong. Perma blocking is still absolutely possible with just this skill without sacrificing much, by just shuffling some magicka into stamina.

This skill remains too strong for pvp and the missing resources restored with core of flame and its morphs should imo be reduced from 12% to 10% with battle spirit active.

Dk has several other tools for sustain with combustion, storm voice, booming voice, resolute defense passives and masteries. Not to mention this is all without sustain food or sets. This skill absolutely does not need giving this much sustain still.

Firstmep · August 17

Balanced warrior:

My suggestion for this passive is this: Increases your armor by 2% and your weapon and spell damage by 3% and 2% per templar ability slotted.
This solves 2 things: it simplifies the passive and unlinks armor for damage.
In pve with the current pts iteration slotting fighters guild passives is still a net gain over templar abilities, assuming around 20k armor which is very obtainable even for dps players.
This would break even for spell damage at 3 templar skills over 3 fighters guild abilities, so you would have more freedom.
For pvp you can enjoy some extra armor and weapon damage and you won't feel forced to build into excessive amounts of armor for a tiny damage increase.

Radiate77 · August 17

*Per Templar ability slotted* is bad design

We should be encouraging build diversity not forcing everyone to play the same way.

Firstmep · August 17

Radiate77 wrote: »

*Per Templar ability slotted* is bad design

We should be encouraging build diversity not forcing everyone to play the same way.

I mean sure but that's the direction they seem to be headed.
I suspect it is to promote class identity above all else, and to combat subclassing.

Freelancer_ESO · August 17

Could the Special Necromancer Bash occur once per second when bashing but, the rest of the time let the player use the regular bash?

I think sometimes a player might either miss their bash or bash early and be unable to interrupt something with the full cooldown.

I'm not sure the scaling on the Templar ability setup is a good idea.

Most of the builds I've had in ESO aside from tanks have generally not maxed out on armor unless they were PvP or Tank slanted so, the passive would not naturally be doing much work.

My impression in my brief fiddling with it is that you can probably make annoying PvP build with it to a degree (It'll possibly be annoying to have someone use Beserker Rage on someone and get a bunch of weapon/spell damage out of it along with tons of armor) but, the PvE impact might be a bit limited beyond making tanks do a bit more damage and helping players in optimized groups out a bit.

While you can get a ridiculously high amount of armor with the +14% armor that also bolsters the amount of weapon and spell damage, the armor going that high is pretty useless in PvE and the weapon/spell damage doesn't really make up for the losses in other areas trying to reach those values. Many of the sets that scale off physical/spell resistance aren't good enough to be worth the losses.

Panderbander · August 17

The Balanced Warrior changes now mean Templar werewolves (already nerfed by the cost increases that only really affect non-sorc werewolves) will be losing out on the 6% armor and weapon damage they currently enjoy as a templar werewolf on live. In return they will receive a whole 132 weapon and spell damage at 33k armor. On live they get 360 weapon damage at 6k base weapon damage, and nearly 2k extra armor at 33k resistance.

Yet another indirect nerf that will be pushing yet more werewolves to sorc with its overpowered masteries.