Could you stop ZOS from killing the PvP in this game?

Rhodghard · August 15

ZOS, I’m really going to speak for many of the game's PvP players; I’ll go through the points one by one.:

1- We are tired of so many "ball groups" that ordinary players can`t do absolutely nothing against, And you guys at ZOS keep favoring them time and again with an endless array of sets, shields, healing stacks, and so on ETC ...

2- Could you ZOS balance the PvP classes? Is that too much to ask? Some are completely broken while others are useless; in the end, everyone runs the same setup and the same class. It's really boring. As far as I'm concerned, it's fine if we all start on absolutely equal footing and let player skill decide the outcome

PD: I won't lie to you, there is and has been a huge number of players who have stopped playing this game, and honestly, given the situation, that doesn't surprise me; but the truth is, I at least am still here, hoping that things will change someday.

Lately, I don't even feel like logging in anymore, because I always run into the two points I already mentioned, and I always end up doing the same thing: closing the game.

Tigor · August 15

And also the AI stirred bots need to go. They are not needed.

ceruulean · August 15

Vengeance campaign is available if you're tired of ballgroups and wildly imbalanced classes and skills.

StrandedMonkey · August 15

ceruulean wrote: »

Vengeance campaign is available if you're tired of ballgroups and wildly imbalanced classes and skills.

bandaid on a gunshot wound

Taarente · August 16

There are some legitimate criticisms here, but can we separate those from claims being presented as facts?

Ball groups are extremely strong when well organised. I don’t think anybody seriously disputes that. But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing against them” simply isn’t true. You can use siege and healing/shield reduction, avoid stacking where they can bomb you, spread out, defend the objective, destroy their forward camps, take their resources, or simply stop chasing them around a tower. You do not have to wipe a ball group to make it ineffective.

Major Defile, for example, currently reduces both healing received and damage-shield strength. There are therefore mechanics specifically designed to pressure high-healing/high-shield builds. (ESO-Hub.com)

Likewise, saying ZOS continually favours ball groups or is simply “killing PvP” ignores what has actually happened in 2026.

Update 50 made Vengeance permanent, gave it a population cap three times that of normal Cyrodiil campaigns, and introduced the PvP Veterancy system covering Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds. ZOS also explicitly said it would monitor population and queues following the campaign changes. (Elder Scrolls Online)

Update 51 is currently making further PvP-specific combat changes. The present PTS changes include reductions to Dragonknight burst specifically in PvP, adjustments to Necromancer, Warden and other combat mechanics, and ZOS explicitly says it is continuing to monitor feedback and make targeted adjustments. (Elder Scrolls Online)

That doesn’t mean those changes are necessarily good or that PvP balance is perfect. It demonstrates that “ZOS is doing nothing” or “ZOS only favours ball groups” is not an objective description of what is happening.

“Everyone runs the same setup and the same class” is another assertion that would need evidence. There are metas, certainly. There have always been metas. That is very different from everyone playing the same class/build.

And finally:

“there is and has been a huge number of players who have stopped playing this game”

Possibly. ESO is twelve years old. But where is the evidence that a “huge number” have left PvP specifically because of ball groups and class balance? ZOS does not publish player-churn data broken down by someone’s reason for leaving.

There are also still Cyrodiil queues. A queue doesn’t prove that PvP as a whole is thriving — population caps matter — but it does demonstrate that at those times demand for that campaign exceeds its available capacity. ZOS itself acknowledged that population and queues were something it was monitoring after Update 50. (Elder Scrolls Online)

So I think the defensible argument is:

“I don’t enjoy the current ball-group/healing meta and I don’t think class balance is good.”

Fair enough. That’s an opinion worth discussing.

But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing”, “everyone runs the same class”, “ZOS continually favours ball groups”, and “huge numbers have left because of this” aren’t facts merely because they’re stated emphatically.

Rhodghard · August 16

Personally, I just can't be bothered with ball groups; I don't fight them, and I don't want to. They’re a hassle—they tire me out and bore me—so I always just head somewhere else

And a player with years of experience like me—no matter how good they are—knows they won't make a dent in them; you could hit them with 50 Siege shots and not lower their health at all, given their massive shields and healing stacks, combined with a huge max health pool. If you deal 20k damage but they’re healing 50k per second, you tell me how you're supposed to kill them—and you know that perfectly well if you PvP regularly

To the people trying to take down those "ball groups," I’d say: just let it go. Leave the area, let them keep killing NPCs, and if they’re capturing a castle or whatever, just let them have it. If you run into another one, do the same thing—go somewhere else instead of engaging them. Bore them to death

The reality is that the average PvP player doesn't want "ball groups" around because they break the game—I mean, they literally break the game and leave you helpless. I know it, veteran players know it, and even newcomers know it; so if everyone knows this, why do they keep favoring them?

It’s not hard to deduce that you’re a member of some "ball group," because it makes no sense for you to come to the defense of this, knowing the situation

I remember there used to be three active PvP campaigns, but now there’s only one—Grayhost; the other two are dead. That’s my proof—coming from someone who’s been here since 2015—and you can’t deny it if you weren’t around back then,
all of them fulled

Turtle_Bot · August 16

ceruulean wrote: »

Vengeance campaign is available if you're tired of ballgroups and wildly imbalanced classes and skills.

Absence of ball groups? yes.
Absence of bad balance? no.

NB and DK are still the undisputed kings of vengeance (NB for solo/small scale due to invis that has a burst heal attached, DK for Xv1 and zergs because chains is too strong in groups when there's so little speed/mobility options).

JohnRingo · August 16

Taarente wrote: »

There are some legitimate criticisms here, but can we separate those from claims being presented as facts?

Ball groups are extremely strong when well organised. I don’t think anybody seriously disputes that. But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing against them” simply isn’t true. You can use siege and healing/shield reduction, avoid stacking where they can bomb you, spread out, defend the objective, destroy their forward camps, take their resources, or simply stop chasing them around a tower. You do not have to wipe a ball group to make it ineffective.

Major Defile, for example, currently reduces both healing received and damage-shield strength. There are therefore mechanics specifically designed to pressure high-healing/high-shield builds. (ESO-Hub.com)

Likewise, saying ZOS continually favours ball groups or is simply “killing PvP” ignores what has actually happened in 2026.

Update 50 made Vengeance permanent, gave it a population cap three times that of normal Cyrodiil campaigns, and introduced the PvP Veterancy system covering Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds. ZOS also explicitly said it would monitor population and queues following the campaign changes. (Elder Scrolls Online)

Update 51 is currently making further PvP-specific combat changes. The present PTS changes include reductions to Dragonknight burst specifically in PvP, adjustments to Necromancer, Warden and other combat mechanics, and ZOS explicitly says it is continuing to monitor feedback and make targeted adjustments. (Elder Scrolls Online)

That doesn’t mean those changes are necessarily good or that PvP balance is perfect. It demonstrates that “ZOS is doing nothing” or “ZOS only favours ball groups” is not an objective description of what is happening.

“Everyone runs the same setup and the same class” is another assertion that would need evidence. There are metas, certainly. There have always been metas. That is very different from everyone playing the same class/build.

And finally:

“there is and has been a huge number of players who have stopped playing this game”

Possibly. ESO is twelve years old. But where is the evidence that a “huge number” have left PvP specifically because of ball groups and class balance? ZOS does not publish player-churn data broken down by someone’s reason for leaving.

There are also still Cyrodiil queues. A queue doesn’t prove that PvP as a whole is thriving — population caps matter — but it does demonstrate that at those times demand for that campaign exceeds its available capacity. ZOS itself acknowledged that population and queues were something it was monitoring after Update 50. (Elder Scrolls Online)

So I think the defensible argument is:

“I don’t enjoy the current ball-group/healing meta and I don’t think class balance is good.”

Fair enough. That’s an opinion worth discussing.

But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing”, “everyone runs the same class”, “ZOS continually favours ball groups”, and “huge numbers have left because of this” aren’t facts merely because they’re stated emphatically.

10 year plus ESO PvP GH player here. I have never participated in a Ball Group but I can assure you, they are NOT invincible. What they ARE is the apex predator of a mature PvP game and the end product of years of increasingly sophisticated theory crafting, coordination, and optimization. Simple evolution. However I grow weary of everyone conceding that nobody has a chance against them.

By the way. To all you GH Ball Groups out there. Up yours.

Divine1976 · August 16

Ball groups are a good example of players optimizing the fun out of something

Fighting them is mind numbingly boring and really not worth the time/frustration. You can usually tell when a Ball is near when the server starts lagging

If an evening looks to be dominated by ball groups. I usually go play something else as gaming should be fun

Tigor · August 16

JohnRingo wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

There are some legitimate criticisms here, but can we separate those from claims being presented as facts?

Ball groups are extremely strong when well organised. I don’t think anybody seriously disputes that. But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing against them” simply isn’t true. You can use siege and healing/shield reduction, avoid stacking where they can bomb you, spread out, defend the objective, destroy their forward camps, take their resources, or simply stop chasing them around a tower. You do not have to wipe a ball group to make it ineffective.

Major Defile, for example, currently reduces both healing received and damage-shield strength. There are therefore mechanics specifically designed to pressure high-healing/high-shield builds. (ESO-Hub.com)

Likewise, saying ZOS continually favours ball groups or is simply “killing PvP” ignores what has actually happened in 2026.

Update 50 made Vengeance permanent, gave it a population cap three times that of normal Cyrodiil campaigns, and introduced the PvP Veterancy system covering Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds. ZOS also explicitly said it would monitor population and queues following the campaign changes. (Elder Scrolls Online)

Update 51 is currently making further PvP-specific combat changes. The present PTS changes include reductions to Dragonknight burst specifically in PvP, adjustments to Necromancer, Warden and other combat mechanics, and ZOS explicitly says it is continuing to monitor feedback and make targeted adjustments. (Elder Scrolls Online)

That doesn’t mean those changes are necessarily good or that PvP balance is perfect. It demonstrates that “ZOS is doing nothing” or “ZOS only favours ball groups” is not an objective description of what is happening.

“Everyone runs the same setup and the same class” is another assertion that would need evidence. There are metas, certainly. There have always been metas. That is very different from everyone playing the same class/build.

And finally:

“there is and has been a huge number of players who have stopped playing this game”

Possibly. ESO is twelve years old. But where is the evidence that a “huge number” have left PvP specifically because of ball groups and class balance? ZOS does not publish player-churn data broken down by someone’s reason for leaving.

There are also still Cyrodiil queues. A queue doesn’t prove that PvP as a whole is thriving — population caps matter — but it does demonstrate that at those times demand for that campaign exceeds its available capacity. ZOS itself acknowledged that population and queues were something it was monitoring after Update 50. (Elder Scrolls Online)

So I think the defensible argument is:

“I don’t enjoy the current ball-group/healing meta and I don’t think class balance is good.”

Fair enough. That’s an opinion worth discussing.

But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing”, “everyone runs the same class”, “ZOS continually favours ball groups”, and “huge numbers have left because of this” aren’t facts merely because they’re stated emphatically.

10 year plus ESO PvP GH player here. I have never participated in a Ball Group but I can assure you, they are NOT invincible. What they ARE is the apex predator of a mature PvP game and the end product of years of increasingly sophisticated theory crafting, coordination, and optimization. Simple evolution. However I grow weary of everyone conceding that nobody has a chance against them.

By the way. To all you GH Ball Groups out there. Up yours.

The ballgroups have been there from the beginning. There is no evolution in that at all. Those players don't care about the game performance at all. Exploiting space poverty instead of using the possibility to create unique intelligent builds that make the game interesting. They are not pvp players at all, just copycats and followers not knowing that it will lead to inside thinking and erosion of one's own identity. Resulting in boredom and leaving the game. They are losing any sense of community.

Vengeance gives new players a chance to play pvp, who do have a gap in collecting CP and gear and can't catch up with rusted players. As a sandbox. The different approach is less complex and easier to explain. Perfect for those who enjoy the idea to be part of something new and out of the box.

Last Mayhem was a failure and contra-productive as Vengeance should have been leading to encourage new players to come back, now the ballgroups have been feeding on bad performance. Not a good showcase.

imPDA · August 16

Tigor wrote: »

The ballgroups have been there from the beginning. There is no evolution in that at all. Those players don't care about the game performance at all. Exploiting space poverty instead of using the possibility to create unique intelligent builds that make the game interesting. They are not pvp players at all, just copycats and followers not knowing that it will lead to inside thinking and erosion of one's own identity. Resulting in boredom and leaving the game. They are losing any sense of community.

Ironic but you are part of Decimations, or you identify yourself as "12-people small scale" now?

CoolAsh · August 16

Tigor wrote: »

JohnRingo wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

There are some legitimate criticisms here, but can we separate those from claims being presented as facts?

Ball groups are extremely strong when well organised. I don’t think anybody seriously disputes that. But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing against them” simply isn’t true. You can use siege and healing/shield reduction, avoid stacking where they can bomb you, spread out, defend the objective, destroy their forward camps, take their resources, or simply stop chasing them around a tower. You do not have to wipe a ball group to make it ineffective.

Major Defile, for example, currently reduces both healing received and damage-shield strength. There are therefore mechanics specifically designed to pressure high-healing/high-shield builds. (ESO-Hub.com)

Likewise, saying ZOS continually favours ball groups or is simply “killing PvP” ignores what has actually happened in 2026.

Update 50 made Vengeance permanent, gave it a population cap three times that of normal Cyrodiil campaigns, and introduced the PvP Veterancy system covering Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds. ZOS also explicitly said it would monitor population and queues following the campaign changes. (Elder Scrolls Online)

Update 51 is currently making further PvP-specific combat changes. The present PTS changes include reductions to Dragonknight burst specifically in PvP, adjustments to Necromancer, Warden and other combat mechanics, and ZOS explicitly says it is continuing to monitor feedback and make targeted adjustments. (Elder Scrolls Online)

That doesn’t mean those changes are necessarily good or that PvP balance is perfect. It demonstrates that “ZOS is doing nothing” or “ZOS only favours ball groups” is not an objective description of what is happening.

“Everyone runs the same setup and the same class” is another assertion that would need evidence. There are metas, certainly. There have always been metas. That is very different from everyone playing the same class/build.

And finally:

“there is and has been a huge number of players who have stopped playing this game”

Possibly. ESO is twelve years old. But where is the evidence that a “huge number” have left PvP specifically because of ball groups and class balance? ZOS does not publish player-churn data broken down by someone’s reason for leaving.

There are also still Cyrodiil queues. A queue doesn’t prove that PvP as a whole is thriving — population caps matter — but it does demonstrate that at those times demand for that campaign exceeds its available capacity. ZOS itself acknowledged that population and queues were something it was monitoring after Update 50. (Elder Scrolls Online)

So I think the defensible argument is:

“I don’t enjoy the current ball-group/healing meta and I don’t think class balance is good.”

Fair enough. That’s an opinion worth discussing.

But “ordinary players can do absolutely nothing”, “everyone runs the same class”, “ZOS continually favours ball groups”, and “huge numbers have left because of this” aren’t facts merely because they’re stated emphatically.

10 year plus ESO PvP GH player here. I have never participated in a Ball Group but I can assure you, they are NOT invincible. What they ARE is the apex predator of a mature PvP game and the end product of years of increasingly sophisticated theory crafting, coordination, and optimization. Simple evolution. However I grow weary of everyone conceding that nobody has a chance against them.

By the way. To all you GH Ball Groups out there. Up yours.

The ballgroups have been there from the beginning. There is no evolution in that at all. Those players don't care about the game performance at all. Exploiting space poverty instead of using the possibility to create unique intelligent builds that make the game interesting. They are not pvp players at all, just copycats and followers not knowing that it will lead to inside thinking and erosion of one's own identity. Resulting in boredom and leaving the game. They are losing any sense of community.

Vengeance gives new players a chance to play pvp, who do have a gap in collecting CP and gear and can't catch up with rusted players. As a sandbox. The different approach is less complex and easier to explain. Perfect for those who enjoy the idea to be part of something new and out of the box.

Last Mayhem was a failure and contra-productive as Vengeance should have been leading to encourage new players to come back, now the ballgroups have been feeding on bad performance. Not a good showcase.

I also enjoy seeing interesting and creative gameplay in PvP. Earlier, in a 4v4 Battleground, I got hit by a skill that someone launched that was kind of like a rubber ball, which knocked me off a cliff and killed me. That kind of terrain-based kill was actually pretty fun. Unfortunately, the current Battleground design doesn’t leave much room for players with this kind of creativity to shine.

I think one reason it’s difficult for **Revenge** to gain momentum is simply that Cyrodiil itself is so huge. You often have to spend a long time traveling just to find a fight, and if you happen to run into a large group of players, you can also get killed very easily.

So I have an idea: **introduce a Deathmatch Battleground specifically for Revenge**—a true PvP arena.

In this mode, there wouldn’t be unkillable tanks or healers with endless healing, there wouldn’t be one-shot kills, and there wouldn’t be situations where two players fight for 30 minutes without either side being able to finish the other.

Everyone would have to carefully manage their **Magicka, Stamina, Health, and skill usage**. If you fail to manage your resources and abilities properly, you would simply have to watch yourself gradually get worn down and killed.

It could support **1v1, 2v2, or 3v3**. And balancing the classes for Revenge should also be somewhat easier in this kind of controlled environment.

I think this could be quite beneficial to the continued development and progression of the Revenge mode.

ceruulean · August 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Vengeance campaign is available if you're tired of ballgroups and wildly imbalanced classes and skills.

Absence of ball groups? yes.
Absence of bad balance? no.

NB and DK are still the undisputed kings of vengeance (NB for solo/small scale due to invis that has a burst heal attached, DK for Xv1 and zergs because chains is too strong in groups when there's so little speed/mobility options).

Well people can complain and play in Blackreach and Grayhost or log off or play Vengeance.

Goregram1 · August 17

Random thought ZOS could limit team UI/Numbers alot of the sets an skills only are shareable if people are in your group that these ball groups stack an abuse

reazea · August 17

Goregram1 wrote: »

Random thought ZOS could limit team UI/Numbers alot of the sets an skills only are shareable if people are in your group that these ball groups stack an abuse

For at least six to seven years now we've been begging ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking. But they haven't even tried. They've just given lip service and insisted "they're working on it".

Elendir2am · August 17

JohnRingo wrote: »

10 year plus ESO PvP GH player here. I have never participated in a Ball Group but I can assure you, they are NOT invincible. What they ARE is the apex predator of a mature PvP game and the end product of years of increasingly sophisticated theory crafting, coordination, and optimization. Simple evolution. However I grow weary of everyone conceding that nobody has a chance against them.

By the way. To all you GH Ball Groups out there. Up yours.

The current strength of the ball group is not the result of theory crafting, but rather the opposite. It is the result of the systematic elimination of any counterplay.
For years we created various builds that could threaten BG. And all of these builds were almost immediately eliminated during the new update by ZOS.
BG always liked to pretend how they were able to adapt to everything. Yet I had to create a new build against BG several times a year, not because adaptation, but because nerf hammer.

Nerfing is definitely not crafting.

Luneca · August 17

reazea wrote: »

Goregram1 wrote: »

Random thought ZOS could limit team UI/Numbers alot of the sets an skills only are shareable if people are in your group that these ball groups stack an abuse

For at least six to seven years now we've been begging ZOS to limit heal and shield stacking. But they haven't even tried. They've just given lip service and insisted "they're working on it".

The funny part is that aren't some shields already limited? For instance, can't you only have only one healing ward on? Or did they remove that restriction recently? Sure seems like they didn't. And yet the other shields...

Rhodghard · August 17

It’s no wonder new players stop doing PvP when they run into that kind of crap; I’m not surprised at all.

Just the other day, I ran into a "ball group" attacking, and I thought, "You know what? I’m done with these people," so I went elsewhere—only to find two more "balls" attacking another spot. There was nothing to be done, especially with the massive lag they were causing. I just said, "Forget this," and closed the game because I wasn't having any fun; I mean, what’s the point of staying?

Rhodghard · August 17

I urge people that when they see a group like this, they should leave and abandon them; they'll eventually go somewhere else or wait for boredom to kill them.

MorallyBipolar · August 17

Rhodghard wrote: »

It’s no wonder new players stop doing PvP when they run into that kind of crap; I’m not surprised at all.

Just the other day, I ran into a "ball group" attacking, and I thought, "You know what? I’m done with these people," so I went elsewhere—only to find two more "balls" attacking another spot. There was nothing to be done, especially with the massive lag they were causing. I just said, "Forget this," and closed the game because I wasn't having any fun; I mean, what’s the point of staying?

Not all groups are ball groups. Seems you might be misattributing the label to some groups.

Just_Attivi · August 17

Not all groups are ball groups. But it is getting harder and harder to distinguish since every group is just a blob of health now, due to many factors. These factors affect much of the PVP environment, largely in a negative way imo. This is definitely not an exhaustive list, theres TONS of smaller issues too, broken mechanics, odd interactions, etc. But the broadest problems imo are:
- Health scaling: With coordinated groups, getting enough buffs to damage/procs is easy, and sustain is a joke with minimal comp, so individual investment into anything but health becomes a detriment for group play. Add in that most (all?) shields can scale off of max health, and several actual heals scale off of max health, even without "being a ball" groups become near unkillable (not impossible though). Honestly, at least in PVP, no heals nor shields should scale off health, though caps for shields being max health based was a good call and should stay. Bring back max resource value to at least some roles, reintroducing having to balance stats and not just being blobs of HP.
- Shields are spammable. I know theyre introducing shield cap reduction based on group size soon, but again, if I have 50k health, and can spam shields endlessly due to free sustain, so my shield is 'only' 30k.. still just a blob. Shields need the ramping cost like streak imo. This introduces the need for more tools besides vigor and shield spamming, leading to players needing to actually play a role/class. Yes, this might hurt the sorcerer trying to 1vX, but if balance was introduced throughout the game, the same blob of players chasing said solo sorc wouldnt be giant sponges, skilled play could dispatch opponents quicker, so reliance on spamming that shield repeatedly would lessen. (this applies to more than just sorc, they are just the easiest example).
- Hybridization.... I didnt really start PVPing until after it, so I didnt get to truly experience it, and honestly hybridization helped me get into PVP as a newbie, because it was easier to play. however, after really learning to PVP and understanding mechanics, as mediocre as I may be at them with my latency, I can see just how much the skill ceiling was lowered with hybridization. While I know hybridization will never be undone at this point, I do think separating Damage and healing to be based on weapon damage and max stat respectively, would again, introduce the reliance on people needing to play roles and invest into what theyre doing, not just be a blob of Health. 1vXers and small mans would need to find that balance they need too, and im sure people will complain about whatever meta that introduces.

This definitely isnt everything, and I know theres counterpoints to some of this, but with the alternative being "lets get tiers of siege to do more damage for our siege simulator- I mean Vengeance," I think these 3 points would dramatically alter PVP in a positive way. Block tanks Existed before this current state of the game, so people who just want to stand on flags and siege and be near unkillable still can. Damage dealers wouldnt be unkillable if they want to invest in damage (though comp groups would still get all the buffs, letting them beef up more). Healers wouldnt double as tanks (though comp groups would still get all the buffs, so healers would still be tanky ish). Shielders would be the target to start breaking a ball group, since theyd need to invest in max mag/stam, letting there be some strategy besides "lets all spam Trample and hope it hits before they move." This would also stop 1-4 players from holding entire zergs hostage in a keep, because its so easy to be near unkillable but still have huge burst in the current state of the game. I love trying to 1vX, and attempted so without the current meta and rarely relying on 'proc cheese' , just as a frame of my perspective. But its a little ridiculous how beefy everyone is right now. reduce the ease of beefiness, let skill expression shine. Players who refuse to learn to block or dodge or play defensively or time burst or heavy attack for resources should be at a disadvantage, no doubt that years of experience to master builds and timings should be important in a 'competitive' setting, but the degree to which people can survive right now against dramatically outnumbered odds and damage sources, my mediocre self included, is a bit ridiculous.

Anyway, its coffee hour and Im rambling, i dont even know if this is on topic with OP, just reading ball group comments. Rabble rabble rabble, please stop pushing the high health meta, ty.