Combat Updates – Update 51 PTS

Arunei · August 16

MSattrtand wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

They didn’t seem to consider this or care when destroying werewolf sustain which ergo directly affects ‘werewolf bash weaving’ as well.

I loved the skill expression despite it being 1-bar.

For the love of Eights, can you stop writing about Werewolf sustain in PvE? I'm tired of parsing.

I'm double-bash-weaving for the whole fight. My sustain is perfectly fine with green food and tri-stat potions.

If you want to double-bash-weave with green food and armour potions, well, you can, but that's not a good idea. But it's technically possible.

Double-bash-weaving on 6-mil dummy, so only my own sustain. Green food, tri-stat potions. Sustain is bad. Do not double-bash-weave in groups that can't even provide the Orb.

And no, you can't sustain double-bash-weaving on Mag Werewolf, like any other Mag spec. And yes, once again I'm talking only about PvE.

Your Stam parses mean nothing when one of the big reasons the Stam cost increase is a problem is BECAUSE Mag builds' sustain will be ass. A Trial Dummy providing you every relevant buff also doesn't apply to solo content when the only buffs you're getting are from your own Skills and Gear.

tomofhyrule · August 16

Arunei wrote: »

Trial Dummy providing you every relevant buff also doesn't apply to solo content when the only buffs you're getting are from your own Skills and Gear.

And here is the crux of most balancing issues.

If you balance against every person being solo, then groups are OP. If you balance against groups, then soloists are left in the dust.

Which is the right answer?

GeneralGrundmann · August 16

Don't know if this is "the" right answer.

It depends what you would like to compare.

Comparing trial builds for dps = 21m dummy

Comparing solo builds for dps = 6m dummy

Any other comparisons are more difficult if not impossible. Healing for example.

A trial build dps might slot zero self heals because he gets all the healing it needs from the group.

A solo build needs healing skills or relies only on pale order.

Balancing a game like this is for all situations is impossible, especially cross-comparisons.

LadyGP · August 16

Whats happening right now with OSR is insane..

This little cllip right here, how decisions are made, is something ZoS should take directly to the heart, inject in their veins, whatever it needs. The way decisions are being made right now are.... all over the place.

https://youtu.be/SVgcOWPU6k0?si=1aKFvmoUcpkxj3YE&t=788

Because they won't click the link I'm sure I'll type it all out.

Context: Leading from the heart.

"It doesn't feel safe. It feels safe to have numbers making decisions for you. I think as soon as you get lost in that you're not really making decisions anyway.. you're just letting consequences roll out of data points.. which is unfortunate."

"I think for us leading with heart is the only thing we can do really well."

Look at what the very first thing he did when he became CEO.... I'll wait.

- xcatguy

Wuuffyy · August 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Trial Dummy providing you every relevant buff also doesn't apply to solo content when the only buffs you're getting are from your own Skills and Gear.

And here is the crux of most balancing issues.

If you balance against every person being solo, then groups are OP. If you balance against groups, then soloists are left in the dust.

Which is the right answer?

Fully optimized groups are pulling 230-250k (I've seen those group CMXs in actual content with my own eyes). Worry about the little guy (solo/small scale) and make sure less of it affects the big guy (big groups/large scale) when possible... but definitely focus on the little guy first.

Werewolf sustain nerfs? They smash the competition and leave sorc as the only viable option to maintain werewolf sustain and it 'feel good'. Little Jimmy turning into a NB werewolf or turning into a werewolf from a magden is destroyed yet 'The Wolfinator' is over here chugging along still on sorc next patch based on my own PTS insight.

Anyone with a unique IA sustain wolf build- hurt deeply.

Anyone with a 4-man PvE tank built for self-sustain- hurt deeply.

Anyone on a mag build outside of parsing on 'da 21m dummy and/or a fully optimized group- hurt deeply.

Sustain nerfs were for PvP, geared towards 'overbearing werewolf issues' yet leaves Conservation of Energy unchecked and trickles down to each facet of PvE and off-meta PvP uniquely.

Arunei · August 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Trial Dummy providing you every relevant buff also doesn't apply to solo content when the only buffs you're getting are from your own Skills and Gear.

And here is the crux of most balancing issues.

If you balance against every person being solo, then groups are OP. If you balance against groups, then soloists are left in the dust.

Which is the right answer?

The right answer in this case would be trying several things they seem unwilling to do:

1) Adjust CoE because it's overtuned regardless but is especially busted on WW. Increasing the Stam cost is just going to drive everyone to playing Sorcs for it. And mind you I don't PvP much at all and one of the characters I play is a Sorc, so I'm not saying to lower CoE because I want to see Sorc nerfed. I want to see other things NOT get nerfed because it's too strong.

2) Make WW Skills cost whatever your highest resource is. That way at least Mag WWs would still be able to sustain because the Skills would cost Mag (though the heal should swap to a Stam Skill in this case if they could do that).

3) Make CoE require a Sorc Skill be used to activate.

4) Disable CoE when a player is transformed while in Cyro/IC/BGs.

5) Make the increase smaller, say the Stam Skills cost 1.5k Stam instead, rather than going up as high as.they have.

6) Make use of Battle Spirit more and add the Stam Skill cost increases there instead of to WW overall where it will also affect PvE, which they've said they're happy in the past with where PvE WW was so why do something that nerfs it?

LadyGP · August 16

We need more on the 6 or more group stacking for PVP nerfs. It's absolutely out of control. Yes, ball groups should have a place in this game but there comes a point where it is so out of balanced you're pushing everyone away besides the ball groups.

Stop letting ballgroups kill your game ZoS. You know there has been a problem for years, we know there has been a problem. Cap dps, more nerfs for shield stacking, whatever you need to do... figure it out.

- xcatguy

soldierofzion82 · August 16

"Seething Fury (Molten Whip’s buff) is now halved in PvP, reducing how deadly their burst combos can be."

Halving the burst combo is a little harsh. How about knocking it down to 75% of what it was? 50% seems excessive.

Just a consideration... I mean, if I have to swap to slapping people as a DK Vampire Lord then okay. I will continue to bring pain to the NBs and Sorcs that try to run away from me.

It's always this or that. Can't please everyone. I get it, but this seems a tad extra when DK DPS isn't wanted in PVE group content. Got to leave us at least one area of the game where we can shine besides PVE tanking.

The class refresh for DK has been amazing. Looking forward to the others. Keep up the great work!

Wuuffyy · August 16

soldierofzion82 wrote: »

"Seething Fury (Molten Whip’s buff) is now halved in PvP, reducing how deadly their burst combos can be."

Halving the burst combo is a little harsh. How about knocking it down to 75% of what it was? 50% seems excessive.

Just a consideration... I mean, if I have to swap to slapping people as a DK Vampire Lord then okay. I will continue to bring pain to the NBs and Sorcs that try to run away from me.

It's always this or that. Can't please everyone. I get it, but this seems a tad extra when DK DPS isn't wanted in PVE group content. Got to leave us at least one area of the game where we can shine besides PVE tanking.

The class refresh for DK has been amazing. Looking forward to the others. Keep up the great work!

It is 75%. So you have base whip which was 100% and original buff was 100%; now 50% buff instead.

So 150% instead of 200% which equates to 75%. Very good change consider>>

That knocks the 41k whip from the video to 30k. My corro/onslaught whips from 27k to about 20k (again, 2-3 defensive sets depending on if you count Mono). My non-corro onsalught whips from 15-19k to about 11-14k. Which are all appropriate.

soldierofzion82 · August 16

Wuuffyy wrote: »

soldierofzion82 wrote: »

"Seething Fury (Molten Whip’s buff) is now halved in PvP, reducing how deadly their burst combos can be."

Halving the burst combo is a little harsh. How about knocking it down to 75% of what it was? 50% seems excessive.

Just a consideration... I mean, if I have to swap to slapping people as a DK Vampire Lord then okay. I will continue to bring pain to the NBs and Sorcs that try to run away from me.

It's always this or that. Can't please everyone. I get it, but this seems a tad extra when DK DPS isn't wanted in PVE group content. Got to leave us at least one area of the game where we can shine besides PVE tanking.

The class refresh for DK has been amazing. Looking forward to the others. Keep up the great work!

It is 75%. So you have base whip which was 100% and original buff was 100%; now 50% buff instead.

So 150% instead of 200% which equates to 75%. Very good change consider>>

That knocks the 41k whip from the video to 30k. My corro/onslaught whips from 27k to about 20k (again, 2-3 defensive sets depending on if you count Mono). My non-corro onsalught whips from 15-19k to about 11-14k. Which are all appropriate.

Thanks for breaking that down better for me. You're right. The way it is stated in the notes will probably create a knee jerk reaction for many players not as savvy with the numbers, but the change is ultimately fine. It probably won't stop people from crying for getting owned by DKs, but no one likes to lose. And I lose plenty! LOL

Anoko_Medivh · 12:53AM

Sorc mastery is a massive part of the wolf problem and as others have stated - it hasn’t been addressed. Even worse, you’re going to force wolves to play Sorc for the sustain masteries. They all do this anyways! Sorc is by far the best class for WW and will become the only viable class with the changes. The WW damage and healing need to be addressed more than the sustain.

Sorc sustain is absolutely broken. It’s not just wolves that are a problem - the amount of times a Sorc streaks 3-5 times in a row is extremely frustrating in PvP. This was never anyone’s intent but the cost increase penalty is voided with current Sorc sustain from class mastery.

Regarding the 50% nerf to molten whip, that’s worse than it was for the past several years. At least revert it back to 60%…..

soldierofzion82 · 5:13AM

Anoko_Medivh wrote: »

Regarding the 50% nerf to molten whip, that’s worse than it was for the past several years. At least revert it back to 60%…..

Maybe I'm not losing my mind. LOL

pinkpom · 10:03AM

DK can use powerful skills other than Molten Whip.
If you think Molten Whip is weak, you should just use a skill other than Molten Whip.
However, I think you will probably keep using Molten Whip.
Molten Whip is strong even if its damage is halved.

themaddaedra · 10:10AM

Plectro wrote: »

Endgame PvE player here. Seeing the Pummeling Goliath changes is very disappointing I really hope these changes will not go through to live servers.

I personally have been enjoying the double-bash rotation a lot. I've been playing this game for almost 7 years now and I can genuinely say the current patch is the most fun I've had in ESO in all that time, partly also because of how enjoyable I find the double bash necro rotation. It's been such a breath of fresh air after spending so long beaming on arcanist.

Double bash weaving is a bit more complex than other rotations but not as tricky as it might initially seem. Pummeling Goliath is a strong ultimate that comes with some significant downsides and I would strongly argue against the proposed changes. Having a double-bash rotation adds interesting variety to the gameplay options. I would also like to point out that just looking at logs and how this class is performing will show very biased results for these reasons:

- Goliath is normally played by players who are already good at the game. If you had these players play other classes, they will likely perform just as well, or at least very close to it
- Many endgame players choose not to play other classes because they are either less interesting, or perform slightly worse, so the stats in logs are very skewed towards Goliaths. This is a very important thing to take note of when looking at logs. In the past I've seen Templar DDs copy healer setups from top-performing logs, because they thought it was good for Templar DPS. While the truth was that high-end groups just didn't play templar as it was slightly worse than other classes and a scorepush group's healer in a support setup (Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's) did more damage than average templar damage dealer
- Nightblades and Sorcerers for single target fights in PvE perform just as well as Necromancers with Goliath, if not better in many cases. Goliath strength is AoE and immobile fights
- Non-goliath Necromancer still performs very well, just a few k DPS behind Goliath, the issue is, as I mentioned above, many top-players just don't play non-goliath enough to showcase the strength. Here's an example run we did with an endgame group on Bahsei HM (1 min 17 s fight), which is one of few fights where you don't want to interrupt the boss. So we decided to stop using Goliath, to avoid interrupting Bahsei's channel. This is single target DPS on the boss:
#1 is non-goliath
#2 is goliath
#3 is non-goliath

As you can see player #1 is even higher DPS (Gopher) than the Goliath player (me), simply because he's a more experienced player and does the rotation well.

Pummeling Goliath ult has some significant downsides, which is:
- Stamina Drain is very high and players are usually forced into stamina recovery food. Even with it, it's often hard to sustain
- The ult is expensive and ult generation stops in Goliath transformation which lasts for 20 seconds. This means players can't benefit from sets like Pillager, Cryptcannon, and Minor + Major Heroism buffs during that time. In order to get the best out of Goliath, the group needs to coordinate around Goliath timers, which is tricky. Without this coordination, Goliath does not perform as well. For this reason as well, ults like meteor, you might be able to get 2-3 meteors off, which comes close in performance
- The high health gain makes some Health% mechanics very difficult or even impossible. Such as vSE HM Yaseyla's ice tombs or vOC HM curses on second boss. This makes the ultimate not viable for some fights.
- Bash cannot be queued up and this means the time before a bash goes through is tied to ping. This hurts players with high ping. Generally bash cooldown is about 333 ms, but players with higher ping will need to wait longer. This makes 2 bashes per GCD impossible for players who are playing around 200 ping or more

tl;dr: If you want to nerf Goliath damage, I think that's reasonable, but do not remove the double-bash rotation as it is what makes necromancers so fun to play and many endgame players agree with this. Goliath is not performing much higher than other ults, it's just that the logs do not reflect this fact well, because top players only play Goliath.

People who do not enjoy double-bashing can still play meteor Necro or other classes and perform very well. Let us keep double-bash for those who enjoy it. If you want to make the rotation more enjoyable, fix the issue with bash cooldown being tied to ping so that players with high ping can have an easier time double-bashing.

Agree and disagree. I agree that removing the doube bash gameplay entirely is a very bad decision and hinders the fun people are having with it. There should be a better solution like reducing damage on a consequent bash.

I disagree that experienced players will have as much dps with other classes as they have with bashcro. This is easily confirmable through logs. Same players (like Alduin, yourself, Curry etc few i checked) will often have 30k+ more ST damage on longer fights, while in shorter fights this goes up to 70k+ range with their necros compared to their nbs. Keep in mind this is ST, where NB is supposed to be very strong. When it comes to aoe fights or fights that require cleave, necro is straight up ahead not even comparable. Specific conditions obviously apply to specific fights, but that's just been the case all over this patch. Any logs filtered to damage done to bosses will likely have 30+ necros in the first 40 ranks.

So i think a damage nerf is based, but not through a cooldown.