Let Templar Double Dip Balanced Warrior

madmufffin · August 12

While at this point having seen/run the math, it looks like this change to Balanced Warrior is a small net gain for plar vs the old variant in all but the most extreme PVE scenarios, it doesn't change the fact the class is still being outright nerfed with the class passive change. To account for the huge loss in self-sourced raw weapon/spell damage, there's no reason for plar to not get both buffs from Balanced Warrior: 3%/6% and the 1% sum of your combined resistances. This still leaves plar at a loss of self-sourced damaged overall, but at least does something to fix the gap while also leaning into the thematic value of this armor concept the combat team is trying to attribute to plar (still makes more sense on dk).

Plar is the only class that is bottom of the barrel for both PVE and PVP (ignoring Arc because they deserve it after a two year run of complete dominance in PVE). Templar simply isn't good right now, and giving them an extra 500 weapon/spell damage even in a group environment where a DK is providing minor brutality to cover the loss of minor sorcery isn't going to magically break metas or even make them close to top dog in either format. With what works out to about a 10% damage increase according to quick maths, it'll probably compete with Sorc for top parse on a parse dummy, but without access to disease damage that won't change anything in a raid environment and won't close the gap with Sorc and DK in PVP. The class is bad and is getting nerfed no matter how you look at it, so toss them a bone.

This all simply is to address one single aspect of the class that has been taken away for no reason. It doesn't change the fact that, as a whole, Templar will remain in an underwhelming spot with all around bad damage and defensive passives, a lack of access to meaningful buffs and debuffs, the worst class shield in the game, and absolutely horrid sustain that only Warden would envy. All I ask is that you reconsider these changes and acknowledge the severity of losing the ability to self-source a 10% spell damage increase. Having Balanced Warrior do both buffs won't break the game, won't break the class, and certainly won't change the oppressive metas present in both game modes at the moment.

acanca · August 12

Honestly yea.

Keep the 6% as is and tack on a weapon damage buff based on armor.

It worked fine for dk and their 10% tacked on.

Why not for templars?

Firstmep · August 12

I'd still like judgement brand to give full value in pvp, as it stands it's the only truly offensive mastery we have and it's also the worst in pvp for some reason.

Like bastion of light is actually really strong, and then you can choose between guardian or bright harbinger and the rest are utter garbo.

madmufffin · August 12

Firstmep wrote: »

I'd still like judgement brand to give full value in pvp, as it stands it's the only truly offensive mastery we have and it's also the worst in pvp for some reason.

Like bastion of light is actually really strong, and then you can choose between guardian or bright harbinger and the rest are utter garbo.

Yeah it would be nice to be able to go double damage masteries like everyone else is able to should the desire

Jabbs_Giggity · August 12

Firstmep wrote: »

I'd still like judgement brand to give full value in pvp, as it stands it's the only truly offensive mastery we have and it's also the worst in pvp for some reason.

Like bastion of light is actually really strong, and then you can choose between guardian or bright harbinger and the rest are utter garbo.

The problem with judgement is that it's double dipping again in PVP still. Halved in PVP, then halved again by Battle Spirit.

This definitely needs to get fixed. Class Masteries IMO should be exempt from being halved or effected by Battle Spirit in PVP. This was kinda the whole point to incentivizing pure class building.

madmufffin · August 12

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I'd still like judgement brand to give full value in pvp, as it stands it's the only truly offensive mastery we have and it's also the worst in pvp for some reason.

Like bastion of light is actually really strong, and then you can choose between guardian or bright harbinger and the rest are utter garbo.

The problem with judgement is that it's double dipping again in PVP still. Halved in PVP, then halved again by Battle Spirit.

This definitely needs to get fixed. Class Masteries IMO should be exempt from being halved or effected by Battle Spirit in PVP. This was kinda the whole point to incentivizing pure class building.

I think the NB passives are too strong to exist in an unaltered state in PVP. I don't think anything else really merits being nerfed by Battle Spirit though.

Thal · August 12

Yes, mentioned the same concept in a similar thread.

Acknowledges the issue, leaves Templar open to future changes in the rework but mildly addresses a short term power issue.

Fully agree. Will break nothing from a power balance perspective

madmufffin · August 12

Thal wrote: »

Yes, mentioned the same concept in a similar thread.

Acknowledges the issue, leaves Templar open to future changes in the rework but mildly addresses a short term power issue.

Fully agree. Will break nothing from a power balance perspective

With Templar's lack of prominent passives or buffs/debuffs, a chunk of weapon/spell damage that just effectively almost replaces the amount that was just taken from it won't fundamentally change anything. Even if you put it in conjunction with a DK giving back that old damage source, it's still not going to zero to hero a class that's in the gutter atm.

Radiate77 · August 12

Yup, agree 100%.

We are still net negative on high w/s dmg builds… something we are trapped into as a Templar in PvP.

All of our healing strength comes from weapon/spell damage… and healing is our only survival tool as we don’t have the benefit of an escape skill and our Extended Ritual is useless in today’s game.

As much as I hate Class Mastery as a concept, Templar’s best one is a flat 600 w/s damage… that should speak volumes about how harmful Prism’s change is to the class as a whole.

madmufffin · August 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Yup, agree 100%.

We are still net negative on high w/s dmg builds… something we are trapped into as a Templar in PvP.

All of our healing strength comes from weapon/spell damage… and healing is our only survival tool as we don’t have the benefit of an escape skill and our Extended Ritual is useless in today’s game.

As much as I hate Class Mastery as a concept, Templar’s best one is a flat 600 w/s damage… that should speak volumes about how harmful Prism’s change is to the class as a whole.

Meanwhile another class that won't be named gets 20% more damage if they be brawlin for 50s, 10% more shields, 10% more healing, major berserk, major protection, and just yoinked the only access to the buff that Templar has had since its inception... cool stuff. Glad we get 3k resistances and a nice like 70 damage buff from the new Balanced Warrior...

Ardriel · August 13

I agree 100%. That would be the best solution. If they already say that “…we've heard a lot of feedback about how the loss of Weapon and Spell Damage in solo application is felt, as well as the class lagging a little further behind others. This won't solve those problems entirely, but this should at least give a slight boost to help out the class…
Why skimp on the buffs? It’ll be ages before the class refresh. They can always change it then, if necessary.
I just wrote that in the other post above, too.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Yup, agree 100%.

We are still net negative on high w/s dmg builds… something we are trapped into as a Templar in PvP.

All of our healing strength comes from weapon/spell damage… and healing is our only survival tool as we don’t have the benefit of an escape skill and our Extended Ritual is useless in today’s game.

As much as I hate Class Mastery as a concept, Templar’s best one is a flat 600 w/s damage… that should speak volumes about how harmful Prism’s change is to the class as a whole.

Meanwhile another class that won't be named gets 20% more damage if they be brawlin for 50s, 10% more shields, 10% more healing, major berserk, major protection, and just yoinked the only access to the buff that Templar has had since its inception... cool stuff. Glad we get 3k resistances and a nice like 70 damage buff from the new Balanced Warrior...

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Literally read the statement in Bold above.

If you seriously let this one slip, you 100% should expect player engagement to decline and I would LOVE to sit in on the board meeting for that one...

Luneca · August 13

Something has to happen as the changes they have made simply don't account for the fact that not every templar is able to stack resistances on every build to even take advantage of their "fix" -- it's literally just killing build diversity even more.

Balancing with a group environment in mind is also faulty logic when the game has solo arenas and content that doesn't have a full group to utilize any benefit that might exist.

I don't consider a conditional advantage a buff, especially when the other classes are not being subject to those kinds of conditions in order to get benefit and power from their passives and overall class power budget.

When a condition exists for one class to exert its old power, but not the others, I will call it a nerf.

madmufffin · August 13

Luneca wrote: »

Something has to happen as the changes they have made simply don't account for the fact that not every templar is able to stack resistances on every build to even take advantage of their "fix" -- it's literally just killing build diversity even more.

Balancing with a group environment in mind is also faulty logic when the game has solo arenas and content that doesn't have a full group to utilize any benefit that might exist.

I don't consider a conditional advantage a buff, especially when the other classes are not being subject to those kinds of conditions in order to get benefit and power from their passives and overall class power budget.

When a condition exists for one class to exert its old power, but not the others, I will call it a nerf.

If the solution to a class losing a bunch of it's self-source damage is "just be in a group with a DK", it's a terrible solution. As of now this is an outright nerf to the class that had no reason to even be in consideration for a nerf. If the plan is to just let the class be dead until the refresh in 2 years, then communicate that so we can all stop wasting on time.

Firstmep · August 13

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

madmufffin · August 13

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

Elendildur · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

madmufffin · August 13

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

Elendildur · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

madmufffin · August 13

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

And what about for overland, pvp, and dungeon groups not built around a dk? You can't balance around over organized 12 man content. This is an outright nerf to the Templar class when it was an underperformer in both PVE and PVP as is.

Firstmep · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

And what about for overland, pvp, and dungeon groups not built around a dk? You can't balance around over organized 12 man content. This is an outright nerf to the Templar class when it was an underperformer in both PVE and PVP as is.

In pvp this is a net gain in stat for almost every build, even if you take into account losing minor sorcery. As for overland and small group pve, it is still a net gain in overall spell damage since illuminate provides extra armor now which translates into extra spell damage.
There are some very specific scenarios like wearing full light armor where it may be a net decrease, but that's about it.

ceruulean · August 13

In U50 solo templar has 16% wpn/spell dmg from passive buffs currently. At 3125 damage, you will get 500 wpn and spell dmg. You don't need to mess with CP, Minor Resolve, or armor weights to reach 3.2k dmg. Just play class and use a Dawns Wrath skill.

In U51 solo templar will get 500 MAX flat wpn/spell dmg. And that's assuming you're medium or heavy armor. Screw all the light armor players and newbies with low CP. Enforce stale medium armor meta even more.

How is this a buff to solo templars? Why should I rely on DK in party to achieve max potential?

Arcanist doesn't have spell damage party buff but the class is easy to play, whereas templar is harder to play.

DK has magma shell and can reach high IA arcs better than templar.

Extra resistances isn't going to make templar more worth to play when it has to make tradeoffs for sustain, skill selection (class mastery only works on solar barrage slotted, or templar skills, so no more dizzying swing builds), and mobility/defense.

On Vestige difficulty, you have to roll dodge. Resistances and extra healing don't help with one-shots.

In PVP, the majority of people are running Onslaught and Corrosive which ignores resistances.

It's either rework templar entirely, or give it damage for being clunky.

madmufffin · August 13

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

And what about for overland, pvp, and dungeon groups not built around a dk? You can't balance around over organized 12 man content. This is an outright nerf to the Templar class when it was an underperformer in both PVE and PVP as is.

In pvp this is a net gain in stat for almost every build, even if you take into account losing minor sorcery. As for overland and small group pve, it is still a net gain in overall spell damage since illuminate provides extra armor now which translates into extra spell damage.
There are some very specific scenarios like wearing full light armor where it may be a net decrease, but that's about it.

In no way shape or form is it a net gain. In mostly medium armor, you sit at 4k wd/sd pretty normally on plar unbuffed. Minor sorcery alone gives you 400 from that. Balanced Warrior gives you 240 without taking in account buffs impacting your base damage to be multiplied. That is a bare minimum of 640 damage with a minimal contribution into building raw damage. For the new calc you can net more wd/sd from Balanced Warrior, but have to build for it a bit and still don't reach the level of minimal return on Balanced Warrior + minor sorcery. That's a 30% difference on bare bones low investment plar. I have 4018 wd/sd on my 5L/2M healplar in ritual mundus unbuffed on a rock in Rawl'kha right now.

madmufffin · August 13

ceruulean wrote: »

In U50 solo templar has 16% wpn/spell dmg from passive buffs currently. At 3125 damage, you will get 500 wpn and spell dmg. You don't need to mess with CP, Minor Resolve, or armor weights to reach 3.2k dmg. Just play class and use a Dawns Wrath skill.

In U51 solo templar will get 500 MAX flat wpn/spell dmg. And that's assuming you're medium or heavy armor. Screw all the light armor players and newbies with low CP. Enforce stale medium armor meta even more.

How is this a buff to solo templars? Why should I rely on DK in party to achieve max potential?

Arcanist doesn't have spell damage party buff but the class is easy to play, whereas templar is harder to play.

DK has magma shell and can reach high IA arcs better than templar.

Extra resistances isn't going to make templar more worth to play when it has to make tradeoffs for sustain, skill selection (class mastery only works on solar barrage slotted, or templar skills, so no more dizzying swing builds), and mobility/defense.

On Vestige difficulty, you have to roll dodge. Resistances and extra healing don't help with one-shots.

In PVP, the majority of people are running Onslaught and Corrosive which ignores resistances.

It's either rework templar entirely, or give it damage for being clunky.

There's also been no clarification if the bonus takes into account your base armor or if it adjusts according to debuffs. If you're gonna get your passive nuked every time you get major/minor breached and/or hit with alkosh in pvp, that just makes it even worse.

Firstmep · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

And what about for overland, pvp, and dungeon groups not built around a dk? You can't balance around over organized 12 man content. This is an outright nerf to the Templar class when it was an underperformer in both PVE and PVP as is.

In pvp this is a net gain in stat for almost every build, even if you take into account losing minor sorcery. As for overland and small group pve, it is still a net gain in overall spell damage since illuminate provides extra armor now which translates into extra spell damage.
There are some very specific scenarios like wearing full light armor where it may be a net decrease, but that's about it.

In no way shape or form is it a net gain. In mostly medium armor, you sit at 4k wd/sd pretty normally on plar unbuffed. Minor sorcery alone gives you 400 from that. Balanced Warrior gives you 240 without taking in account buffs impacting your base damage to be multiplied. That is a bare minimum of 640 damage with a minimal contribution into building raw damage. For the new calc you can net more wd/sd from Balanced Warrior, but have to build for it a bit and still don't reach the level of minimal return on Balanced Warrior + minor sorcery. That's a 30% difference on bare bones low investment plar. I have 4018 wd/sd on my 5L/2M healplar in ritual mundus unbuffed on a rock in Rawl'kha right now.

Literally what I wrote about it being a decrease in light armor.

madmufffin · August 13

Well this is something at least

ceruulean · August 13

madmufffin wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

In U50 solo templar has 16% wpn/spell dmg from passive buffs currently. At 3125 damage, you will get 500 wpn and spell dmg. You don't need to mess with CP, Minor Resolve, or armor weights to reach 3.2k dmg. Just play class and use a Dawns Wrath skill.

In U51 solo templar will get 500 MAX flat wpn/spell dmg. And that's assuming you're medium or heavy armor. Screw all the light armor players and newbies with low CP. Enforce stale medium armor meta even more.

How is this a buff to solo templars? Why should I rely on DK in party to achieve max potential?

Arcanist doesn't have spell damage party buff but the class is easy to play, whereas templar is harder to play.

DK has magma shell and can reach high IA arcs better than templar.

Extra resistances isn't going to make templar more worth to play when it has to make tradeoffs for sustain, skill selection (class mastery only works on solar barrage slotted, or templar skills, so no more dizzying swing builds), and mobility/defense.

On Vestige difficulty, you have to roll dodge. Resistances and extra healing don't help with one-shots.

In PVP, the majority of people are running Onslaught and Corrosive which ignores resistances.

It's either rework templar entirely, or give it damage for being clunky.

There's also been no clarification if the bonus takes into account your base armor or if it adjusts according to debuffs. If you're gonna get your passive nuked every time you get major/minor breached and/or hit with alkosh in pvp, that just makes it even worse.

I went on PTS and tested in a duel. On the Balanced Warrior passive, the value goes down when I'm debuffed with Weakness to Elements (Major Breach). However, my weapon and spell damage doesn't change on my stat sheet. So I'm not sure how this passive contributes to weapon and spell damage, or if it's affected by Brutality buffs, but I can confirm the tooltip value on the passive goes down.

madmufffin · August 13

ceruulean wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

In U50 solo templar has 16% wpn/spell dmg from passive buffs currently. At 3125 damage, you will get 500 wpn and spell dmg. You don't need to mess with CP, Minor Resolve, or armor weights to reach 3.2k dmg. Just play class and use a Dawns Wrath skill.

In U51 solo templar will get 500 MAX flat wpn/spell dmg. And that's assuming you're medium or heavy armor. Screw all the light armor players and newbies with low CP. Enforce stale medium armor meta even more.

How is this a buff to solo templars? Why should I rely on DK in party to achieve max potential?

Arcanist doesn't have spell damage party buff but the class is easy to play, whereas templar is harder to play.

DK has magma shell and can reach high IA arcs better than templar.

Extra resistances isn't going to make templar more worth to play when it has to make tradeoffs for sustain, skill selection (class mastery only works on solar barrage slotted, or templar skills, so no more dizzying swing builds), and mobility/defense.

On Vestige difficulty, you have to roll dodge. Resistances and extra healing don't help with one-shots.

In PVP, the majority of people are running Onslaught and Corrosive which ignores resistances.

It's either rework templar entirely, or give it damage for being clunky.

There's also been no clarification if the bonus takes into account your base armor or if it adjusts according to debuffs. If you're gonna get your passive nuked every time you get major/minor breached and/or hit with alkosh in pvp, that just makes it even worse.

I went on PTS and tested in a duel. On the Balanced Warrior passive, the value goes down when I'm debuffed with Weakness to Elements (Major Breach). However, my weapon and spell damage doesn't change on my stat sheet. So I'm not sure how this passive contributes to weapon and spell damage, or if it's affected by Brutality buffs, but I can confirm the tooltip value on the passive goes down.

Very interesting. Hopefully it's just the output for Balanced being reactive and not an actual reduction relative to incoming debuffs. That would be depressing.

madmufffin · August 13

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Elendildur wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Thr 2 things I'd like to see is the scaling for this passive to be increased to 1.5% and the cap increased to 750.
Second please remove the battle spirit nerf from judgement brand, we still have plenty of pts time to test if it really is somehow too strong.

I still don't think that's near enough damage to account for the loss of minor sorcery. Would like to see Judgement Brand get a look at full power in PVP though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/comment/8519488/#Comment_8519488

Someone's already crunched the numbers, and the new value for Balanced Warrior is a buff over the old one, unless you have abnormally low resists

Yes for the changes to balanced warrior it's a small buff. That's why I said "to account for the loss of minor sorcery" which is 10% damage buff.

In a trial group, you'll almost certainly have a Dragonknight to provide Minor Brutality, which means losing Minor Sorcery isn't even a factor. Even in smaller groups, DKs are popular enough that it's decently likely you'll have one

And what about for overland, pvp, and dungeon groups not built around a dk? You can't balance around over organized 12 man content. This is an outright nerf to the Templar class when it was an underperformer in both PVE and PVP as is.

In pvp this is a net gain in stat for almost every build, even if you take into account losing minor sorcery. As for overland and small group pve, it is still a net gain in overall spell damage since illuminate provides extra armor now which translates into extra spell damage.
There are some very specific scenarios like wearing full light armor where it may be a net decrease, but that's about it.

In no way shape or form is it a net gain. In mostly medium armor, you sit at 4k wd/sd pretty normally on plar unbuffed. Minor sorcery alone gives you 400 from that. Balanced Warrior gives you 240 without taking in account buffs impacting your base damage to be multiplied. That is a bare minimum of 640 damage with a minimal contribution into building raw damage. For the new calc you can net more wd/sd from Balanced Warrior, but have to build for it a bit and still don't reach the level of minimal return on Balanced Warrior + minor sorcery. That's a 30% difference on bare bones low investment plar. I have 4018 wd/sd on my 5L/2M healplar in ritual mundus unbuffed on a rock in Rawl'kha right now.

Literally what I wrote about it being a decrease in light armor.

Light armor and heavy armor both contribute nothing to raw weapon damage on live right now, so not sure how this is relevant. The point is you get 4k weapon damage pretty easily atm, which makes your combined weapon damage from Balanced Warrior and Minor Sorcery a good deal higher in all situations than the new Balanced Warrior and no Minor Sorcery. That being said, they've clearly made adjustments based off the above image I posted, so now we must see how that all plays out.

madmufffin · August 17

Spent all weekend very excited after the midweek update just to get this need a math degree nonsense... With 25k of each resistance and 6 templar skills front barred this is only 650 damage. You got that from minor sorcery alone in PVE content.

Militan1404 · August 17

madmufffin wrote: »

Spent all weekend very excited after the midweek update just to get this need a math degree nonsense... With 25k of each resistance and 6 templar skills front barred this is only 650 damage. You got that from minor sorcery alone in PVE content.

Yeah and you get more from slotting fighters guild ability than slotting templar ability on a templar