Another round of horrible changes.

evLRise · August 10

Balanced Warrior: This passive now grants a flat amount of Weapon and Spell Damage based on your total Armor stat (Physical + Spell Resistance, .5%|1% of each), up to a cap of 250|500, rather than granting 3|6% Weapon and Spell Damage.

Based on your comments on this change, how exactly is this a damage boost? To reach the cap you need 25.000 phys and spell armor. 6% is way more noticeable in PvE, since you have buffs like Major / minor courage, PA etc, and you have no heavy armor on a DD or sources for resolve / defensive buffs. I strongly doubt PvE comps run stuff like Meritorious or group armor buffs. With 6 medium and 1 light piece im sitting at 11000 spell and 10000 phys resist. I'll probably get a 3000 buff from combat prayer, and a bit from the new plar passive but other than that, where exactly do people care about the armor? Are groups going to start running full plar DDs for vRGHM 3rd boss just to take advantage of this horrendous change? For both coordinated AND uncoordinated PvE groups this change is worthless and at best it's just as good as the previous itteration BUT with an extra condition. For solo PvE templar is already doing good due to the lifesteal on jabs.
In PvP most players sit at 25k resists fully buffed and WITH NO DEBUFFS. Add in minor / major breach which every class has, and you're sitting at 300 WD/SD. The old passive which gave u 6% gave u this amount at 5000 WD/SD ( 6/100*5000 = 300 ) and you always had more than this amount when buffed. Let's not even talk about other debuffs like Alkosh if I come across an enemy group.

Community: Complains that NB and templar are absolute garbage.
ZoS: Buff DK and nerf plar. Amazing changes once again! And good maths as well!

XVestigeXx · August 10

evLRise wrote: »

Balanced Warrior: This passive now grants a flat amount of Weapon and Spell Damage based on your total Armor stat (Physical + Spell Resistance, .5%|1% of each), up to a cap of 250|500, rather than granting 3|6% Weapon and Spell Damage.

Based on your comments on this change, how exactly is this a damage boost? To reach the cap you need 25.000 phys and spell armor. 6% is way more noticeable in PvE, since you have buffs like Major / minor courage, PA etc, and you have no heavy armor on a DD or sources for resolve / defensive buffs. I strongly doubt PvE comps run stuff like Meritorious or group armor buffs. With 6 medium and 1 light piece im sitting at 11000 spell and 10000 phys resist. I'll probably get a 3000 buff from combat prayer, and a bit from the new plar passive but other than that, where exactly do people care about the armor? Are groups going to start running full plar DDs for vRGHM 3rd boss just to take advantage of this horrendous change? For both coordinated AND uncoordinated PvE groups this change is worthless and at best it's just as good as the previous itteration BUT with an extra condition. For solo PvE templar is already doing good due to the lifesteal on jabs.
In PvP most players sit at 25k resists fully buffed and WITH NO DEBUFFS. Add in minor / major breach which every class has, and you're sitting at 300 WD/SD. The old passive which gave u 6% gave u this amount at 5000 WD/SD ( 6/100*5000 = 300 ) and you always had more than this amount when buffed. Let's not even talk about other debuffs like Alkosh if I come across an enemy group.

Community: Complains that NB and templar are absolute garbage.
ZoS: Buff DK and nerf plar. Amazing changes once again! And good maths as well!

Hey don't forget they nerfed NB too this patch with all the stealth changes and Rally's heal pulling out of stealth on top of expert hunter being a stealth detect now. I am so glad my main buff ability on my off meta 2h now is a self debuff ability that puts a timer on me for when I can use my other abilities that keep me alive!

Thanks zos! Another 50% dmg done for DK! Maybe slap an AOE on coag and fossilize next please! How about we give corrosive 100% move speed too with Light attacks extending the duration by 1 minute each? I've noticed one or two people not on a dk or a sorc and that bothers me, lets take care of it huh?

ceruulean · August 10

No offense to ZOS but this change is actually a waste of time. Instead of addressing the power loss of losing Minor Sorcery, they replaced a passive from a different skill tree? And replaced a simple passive with a more complicated one. Literally the fact that templars will now lose damage because they get debuffed with Major and Minor Breach is really crazy.

Just give Minor Brutality to templar.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 10

evLRise wrote: »

Balanced Warrior: This passive now grants a flat amount of Weapon and Spell Damage based on your total Armor stat (Physical + Spell Resistance, .5%|1% of each), up to a cap of 250|500, rather than granting 3|6% Weapon and Spell Damage.

Based on your comments on this change, how exactly is this a damage boost? To reach the cap you need 25.000 phys and spell armor. 6% is way more noticeable in PvE, since you have buffs like Major / minor courage, PA etc, and you have no heavy armor on a DD or sources for resolve / defensive buffs. I strongly doubt PvE comps run stuff like Meritorious or group armor buffs. With 6 medium and 1 light piece im sitting at 11000 spell and 10000 phys resist. I'll probably get a 3000 buff from combat prayer, and a bit from the new plar passive but other than that, where exactly do people care about the armor? Are groups going to start running full plar DDs for vRGHM 3rd boss just to take advantage of this horrendous change? For both coordinated AND uncoordinated PvE groups this change is worthless and at best it's just as good as the previous itteration BUT with an extra condition. For solo PvE templar is already doing good due to the lifesteal on jabs.
In PvP most players sit at 25k resists fully buffed and WITH NO DEBUFFS. Add in minor / major breach which every class has, and you're sitting at 300 WD/SD. The old passive which gave u 6% gave u this amount at 5000 WD/SD ( 6/100*5000 = 300 ) and you always had more than this amount when buffed. Let's not even talk about other debuffs like Alkosh if I come across an enemy group.

Community: Complains that NB and templar are absolute garbage.
ZoS: Buff DK and nerf plar. Amazing changes once again! And good maths as well!

We really need to get momentum on how monumentally ridiculous this change is. We even tried to tell @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom that removing Sorcery from Templar and keeping Brutality on DK was not going to bode well with the player base before the PTS dropped...

ceruulean wrote: »

No offense to ZOS but this change is actually a waste of time. Instead of addressing the power loss of losing Minor Sorcery, they replaced a passive from a different skill tree? And replaced a simple passive with a more complicated one. Literally the fact that templars will now lose damage because they get debuffed with Major and Minor Breach is really crazy.

Just give Minor Brutality to templar.

This literally sums up the changed to Templar for this patch iteration...Absolutely astounding.

Edited for Forum Rules...

Tannus15 · August 10

So what i'm reading is that you haven't logged into PTS to check how much weapon damage you get from this change compared to what you get on live, and you have no idea what impact this is actually going to have but you're angry about it anyway.

I mean, maybe it's bad, but you've checked right? Like actually looked at the numbers?

You know the change is affected by % modifiers, where the live version isn't too right?
like it's 500 weapon damage * major brutality, minor brutality, medium armour and so on right? Because I'm not seeing that in the OP.

Please, go check the numbers, post some screenshots and prove that it's bad, and that they have under cooked it and it needs to be <insert value here> to be compareable or better than live.

Or show that it's about right. I'm not a templar main, I don't really care that much, but you know, actual data is kinda important if you want to change their mind.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 10

Tannus15 wrote: »

So what i'm reading is that you haven't logged into PTS to check how much weapon damage you get from this change compared to what you get on live, and you have no idea what impact this is actually going to have but you're angry about it anyway.

I mean, maybe it's bad, but you've checked right? Like actually looked at the numbers?

Someone already has and reported it in the Class and Abilities thread.

Firstmep wrote: »

After comparing same setups on live vs pts, assuming solo play, and starting around 4.4k base spell damage unbuffed, triple protective, fully buffed, the changes on pts(both balanced warrior and illuminate) net about 4k extra armor and the same ish spell damage(6k).

Keep in mind you need to overshoot the 25k armor for the max value by about 9k, so 34k resist, since major and minor breach are fairly easy to apply in pvp. Even with the change to illuminate you need to get extra armor from other sources like nord/protective to reach around 34-35k armor.

It's an interesting change but realisticly its another defensive buff to templar, the cap makes it difficult to truly capitilize on building armor for offense. Id propose raising the cap to 750 weapon and spell damage. It may seem like a lot, but it is replacing 6% spell damage and requires stacking a different stat altogether(armor) which comes with its own downsides.

Tannus15 · August 10

I think I agree that 750 max might be a better number.
Or change the calculation to require less total resists to take into account debuffs in PvP?

Anyone know how the max weapon damage it looks on a 3m parse vs a 21m parse? That's most likely how they worked out their numbers.
Personally I think they over rely on the dummy when working out values, but that's only an opinion, since I don't actually know their methodology.

MSattrtand · August 10

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Tannus15 · August 11

@MSattrtand fantastic post, thank you

HunterDawn · August 11

🤔It’s possible DK receives more buffs in week three 😅

Firstmep · August 11

Just to be clear my testing showed a net gain in armor starting with a fairly low amount base of spd, and the same is buffed spd.

I think the need to get more than 25k armor for pvp due to major and minor breach skews the formula for pvp.

I could swap triple protective for triple infused from live to pts and have similar amounts of armor(30k ish) and about 300 more spell damage.

Note I didn't do any hard math simply threw on gear on live vs pts and tested numbers that way.

Usureki · August 11

The thing ZOS is doing reminds me of a tragical comedy. It won't end well.

SonOfAsura · August 11

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Firstmep · August 11

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

I think they could either increase the scaling factor to 1.5% or keep the 6% increased weapon damage and tack on this new effect, or maybe replace one of the weaker templar passives with it so it's not all packed in1 place.

Enduring rays comes to mind for possible replacement.

ceruulean · August 11

It's a nerf in a 4 man because the other DPS loses Minor Sorcery. Unless of course, you have ZOS favorite child DK to provide Minor Brutality.

ItsNotLiving · August 11

They could make balanced warrior give 10000 spell damage and it would matter in PvP because you can’t hit anyone with jabs unless they stand still lol.

HatchetHaro · August 11

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

twing1_ · August 11

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

We shall see...

twing1_ · August 11

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

We shall see...

Have you tried your Templar on PTS yet?

Its really easy to check the effect of this change. Just equip the gear you currently wear on live, buff up, and compare spell/weapon damage numbers.

Then, don't proc major resolve and don't proc either minor resolve or the new 2974 resistance buff templar gets, and that will be the effect of major/minor breach on you.

acanca · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

Checked on my templar running rallying, essence thief, balorgh, fully buffed im at around 25k resistances, with the new buff i would be at around 28k, and i would be at around 19k with major and minor breach. Meanwhile i am sitting at around 7.2k weapon damage on live so i am pretty sure that the 6% would have been more beneficial but i didnt check that on pts to be honest.

Still, is it worth it to argue at which breakpoint this supposed buff becomes a nerf? Isnt the point of this change for it to be a compensation for templars weapon damage loss?

Well in that case i think its clear that its barely a compensation at all so its value should be raised so its a proper compensation.

gariondavey · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

Fyi 4 man (and larger) comps use alkosh in pvp. It is a fantastic set

acanca · August 11

gariondavey wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

Fyi 4 man (and larger) comps use alkosh in pvp. It is a fantastic set

Man i was gonna use alkosh on a necro ww with veils forfeit and just keep eating myself to proc it for funsies but 1- insatiable hunger doesnt count as a synergy even tho they said its a synergy even in this pts. and 2- you cant eat yourself with veils forfeit even tho it gives you the red glow of a nearby corpse. Rip self devouring necro ww, you were very thematic and never even existed

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

Nobody is using crimson oath, alkosh, or crusher in PVP.

Wearing heavy armor with major/minor resolve, in addition to the new 2974 resistances Templar are getting in place of minor sorcery, puts a Templar player at (or at least very near) max resistances.

In this scenario, when hit with major/minor breach, the Templar would still retain ~24k resistances and ~95% of the weapon damage granted by the new balanced warrior.

This is a positive change for Templar, and most certainly a buff for PvP. It allows Templar players to build tankier without sacrificing offensive output.

As @HatchetHaro previously demonstrated, even without high resistances the new balanced warrior is not a nerf.

IMO this is a good change for Templars.

We shall see...

Have you tried your Templar on PTS yet?

Its really easy to check the effect of this change. Just equip the gear you currently wear on live, buff up, and compare spell/weapon damage numbers.

Then, don't proc major resolve and don't proc either minor resolve or the new 2974 resistance buff templar gets, and that will be the effect of major/minor breach on you.

Unfortunately, I play Xbox and do not have access to PTS.

The bottom line is Templar is losing minor sorcery, and instead of getting a reasonable tradeoff we get a Balanced Warrior change (in additon to losing sorcery) where we are now tied to another if this then that mechanic that no other class has to constantly account for...

This is a horrible design direction for Templar and nothing anyone can say would change that.

Firstmep · August 11

It's definitely an overall stat buff, I do think this would be an opportunity to push a bit further tho, either by increasing the cap or the scaling a bit. Don't think going up to 750 would be a massive buff for pvp compared to let's say dk damage and would have no effect in pve.

HatchetHaro · August 11

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

I was responding to an "optimized raid group" premise, and while I am very familiar with trial comps, I'm not that familiar with Templar PvP. If you can give me a build and the WD and Armour buffs and debuffs you'd expect to be getting from PvP, I can calculate all that for you.

twing1_ · August 11

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

I was responding to an "optimized raid group" premise, and while I am very familiar with trial comps, I'm not that familiar with Templar PvP. If you can give me a build and the WD and Armour buffs and debuffs you'd expect to be getting from PvP, I can calculate all that for you.

After running some PvP numbers and comparing only old/new balanced warrior while ignoring the loss of minor sorcery, even with Major/Minor breach on my player, it basically boils down to this change being a substantial buff for heavy armor (gained ~400 spell/weapon damage on my heavy armor build + more resistances), marginal offensive nerf but defensive buff for medium armor (lost ~140 spell/weapon damage after modifiers but gained 2974 resistances), and a lateral change out of offense and towards defense for light armor.

Even accounting for the loss of minor sorcery, my heavy armor templar build lost ~150 weapon/spell damage after modifiers but gained a full 2-4 pc item set bonus in resistances. So this is a very marginal buff in stat density, but primarily a lateral move out of offensive power and into defense.

This change definitely favors tankier playstyles, which seems in line with their intended vision of the class.

That being said, I would agree with some of the previous suggestions to either raise the cap to 750 or increase the scaling to 1.5% of resistances in order to mitigate some of the losses to offensive power that non-heavy armor builds are losing. I think increasing the scaling to 1.5% of resistances would have the largest impact in mitigating the lost offensive power of medium/light armor builds, while raising the cap is more geared toward fully restoring the offensive power templar builds had before the loss of minor sorcery but really pigeonholes templar players into heavy armor or high resistance builds.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

I was responding to an "optimized raid group" premise, and while I am very familiar with trial comps, I'm not that familiar with Templar PvP. If you can give me a build and the WD and Armour buffs and debuffs you'd expect to be getting from PvP, I can calculate all that for you.

After running some PvP numbers and comparing only old/new balanced warrior while ignoring the loss of minor sorcery, even with Major/Minor breach on my player, it basically boils down to this change being a substantial buff for heavy armor (gained ~400 spell/weapon damage on my heavy armor build + more resistances), marginal offensive nerf but defensive buff for medium armor (lost ~140 spell/weapon damage after modifiers but gained 2974 resistances), and a lateral change out of offense and towards defense for light armor.

Even accounting for the loss of minor sorcery, my heavy armor templar build lost ~150 weapon/spell damage after modifiers but gained a full 2-4 pc item set bonus in resistances. So this is a very marginal buff in stat density, but primarily a lateral move out of offensive power and into defense.

This change definitely favors tankier playstyles, which seems in line with their intended vision of the class.

That being said, I would agree with some of the previous suggestions to either raise the cap to 750 or increase the scaling to 1.5% of resistances in order to mitigate some of the losses to offensive power that non-heavy armor builds are losing. I think increasing the scaling to 1.5% of resistances would have the largest impact in mitigating the lost offensive power of medium/light armor builds, while raising the cap is more geared toward fully restoring the offensive power templar builds had before the loss of minor sorcery but really pigeonholes templar players into heavy armor or high resistance builds.

How is sustain on heavy armor build? If Templars are to invest in Heavy, there aren't any great tools to justify the DPS loss and Sustain loss is there?
It's always a trade off with Templar.

If we're comparing the future of the clas to the DK refresh, DK gets butt loads of damage multipliers while getting armor from passives, Sustain and healing while not having to invest in any stat other than damage.
Couple that with the high burst tooltip of whip and delayed burst from other skills.
NB has damage miltiplers with incap and burst with CW and Merciless.
Sorc has shields and burst with frag and delayed burst with curse.
Warden has huge burst with shalks on top of major and minor breach.

The list goes on. Templar is always getting the shaft with a trade off playstyle and a very predictable burst window and clunky rotation that is mostly buffing and rebuffing

twing1_ · August 11

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

I was responding to an "optimized raid group" premise, and while I am very familiar with trial comps, I'm not that familiar with Templar PvP. If you can give me a build and the WD and Armour buffs and debuffs you'd expect to be getting from PvP, I can calculate all that for you.

After running some PvP numbers and comparing only old/new balanced warrior while ignoring the loss of minor sorcery, even with Major/Minor breach on my player, it basically boils down to this change being a substantial buff for heavy armor (gained ~400 spell/weapon damage on my heavy armor build + more resistances), marginal offensive nerf but defensive buff for medium armor (lost ~140 spell/weapon damage after modifiers but gained 2974 resistances), and a lateral change out of offense and towards defense for light armor.

Even accounting for the loss of minor sorcery, my heavy armor templar build lost ~150 weapon/spell damage after modifiers but gained a full 2-4 pc item set bonus in resistances. So this is a very marginal buff in stat density, but primarily a lateral move out of offensive power and into defense.

This change definitely favors tankier playstyles, which seems in line with their intended vision of the class.

That being said, I would agree with some of the previous suggestions to either raise the cap to 750 or increase the scaling to 1.5% of resistances in order to mitigate some of the losses to offensive power that non-heavy armor builds are losing. I think increasing the scaling to 1.5% of resistances would have the largest impact in mitigating the lost offensive power of medium/light armor builds, while raising the cap is more geared toward fully restoring the offensive power templar builds had before the loss of minor sorcery but really pigeonholes templar players into heavy armor or high resistance builds.

How is sustain on heavy armor build? If Templars are to invest in Heavy, there aren't any great tools to justify the DPS loss and Sustain loss is there?
It's always a trade off with Templar.

If we're comparing the future of the clas to the DK refresh, DK gets butt loads of damage multipliers while getting armor from passives, Sustain and healing while not having to invest in any stat other than damage.
Couple that with the high burst tooltip of whip and delayed burst from other skills.
NB has damage miltiplers with incap and burst with CW and Merciless.
Sorc has shields and burst with frag and delayed burst with curse.
Warden has huge burst with shalks on top of major and minor breach.

The list goes on. Templar is always getting the shaft with a trade off playstyle and a very predictable burst window and clunky rotation that is mostly buffing and rebuffing

I wear full heavy, but one of my sets is wretched vitality so sustain is not an issue for me.

You bring up all of these trade offs that, you are right, Templar has to make.

Ironically, part of the reason why I see this change as a good one is because it is helping to reduce the number of these tradeoffs that Templar players have to make.

Under this new change, I am able to invest in a heavy armor sustain set without sacrificing my offensive power, where previously it would have hurt my offensive capabilities a lot harder. The new balanced warrior adds a flat bonus to weapon/spell damage that can be modified by things like major brutality, fighters guild and armor passives, where the old one acted as a modifier and required a larger weapon damage base to get the most mileage out of. This key difference, in addition to the fact that the weapon/spell damage granted by this change scales off of resistances, allows the new balanced warrior to synergize extremely well with tankier builds, and serves as a legitimate source of offensive power to Templars when a 5 pc set bonuses must be dedicated to other things, like sustain.

This change hits the Templar players that dedicate higher levels of investment into offensive power the hardest (as the new weapon/spell bonus doesn't synergize well with already high offensive stats), but rewards Templars that invest into defense and sustain with a nice chunk of offensive power.

Overall, it allows Templars to build more defensively, which appears to be ZOS's intended direction for the class, without sacrificing their offensive capabilities.

It does put a limit on the offensive ceiling of the class, but it also makes it so that Templars aren't punished as severely for building into defense or sustain as the other classes.

Its similar to how the DK toolkit addresses the sustain issue which frees them up to build more freely into offense, though I do think DKs are still overtuned while Templars are more working their way back toward viability.

IMO it is a move in the right direction.

Firstmep · August 11

twing1_ wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

SonOfAsura wrote: »

MSattrtand wrote: »

Simple math model:

WPD on live = x * y, where x is your flat WPD, and y is the % modifier
WPD on PTS = (x + 500) * (y - 0.06).

Let's find the breakpoint where WPD on PTS would be higher:

x * y < (x + 500) * (y - 0.06)

x * y < x * y + 500y - 0.06x - 30

0.06x < 500y - 30

6x < 50000y - 3000

x < 8333y - 500

Let's imagine that 6% from the Balanced Warrior was our only source of WPD % modifier. Then:

x < 8333 * 1.06 - 500

x < 8333

So, if your WPD without any % modifiers was lower than 8333, and your only source of WPD % modifier is the Balanced Warrior, your damage would be higher with PTS changes.

Now with more realistic modifiers in trial: 6% from Balanced Warrior, 6% from Calculated Defence, 3% from Slayer for slotting Barbed Trap, 20% from Major Brutality, 10% from Minor Brutality, 12% from 6 medium armour pieces. So y = 1.57.

Let's find the breakpoint now:

x < 8333 * 1.57 - 500

x < 12583

You will not get to 8k WPD without modifiers in content without really weird shenanigans. Not to mention 12k. So this would be a buff once again.

But what if we're not reaching 500 WPD from the passive because we're lacking armour? With 6M/1L, 6% armour from passive, 3k armour from passive and Fortified, we'll get ~300 WPD - this is a realistic scenario for pug groups where you may miss Minor and Major Resolve. I'll skip boring math and write the formula:

x < 5000y - 300

Let's calculate the WPD % modifier in dungeons, since we're assuming an unoptimised scenario. 6% from Balanced Warrior, 20% from Major Brutality, 2% from Medium Armour, 3% from Slayer. We were unlucky and have no DK in group, so no Minor Brutality, and we have to wear light armour to not underpen. y = 1.31. Then:

x < 5000 * 1.31 - 300

x < 6250

So even in this unoptimised scenario, if you're staying below 6250 WPD without WPD % modifiers, that's a buff. And going over 6250 WPD in an unoptimised scenario isn't a trivial task - I tried parsing on 6 mil dummy and got 5k WPD without % modifiers - you need Major Courage, Minor Courage, PA, Spaulder... to reach 6250 WPD. And in this case, your group is probably optimised well enough so you'll have more armour, so more WPD from it.

In conclusion: if my math is correct (I can't be sure about that), this change should be a buff in the vast majority of PvE situations. NB: I'm not talking about PvP at all.

Its nerf when you get over 9.5k wd in optimised raid group

Let's assume an optimized raid build from the top Templar parse on Bahsei right now.

Let's use Infused Jewellery instead of Bloodthirsty: BT actually applies after any % buffs, and so that value wouldn't be boosted by the old 6% on Balanced Warrior, so Infused would be the best-case scenario in favour of the old Balanced Warrior passive.

As you can see, at the maximum value of the new Balanced Warrior passive, the resulting WD is actually 4.50% over the old passive.

Sure, it might be hard to hit that value of Armour on a DPS setup, so let's see what the actual cutoff point is.

The cutoff point is at 232 WD from the passive, which is 11,600 Physical and Spell Resistance. A character with zero attributes, zero skills, and zero CP reaches 10,597 Resistances with just 6/1 Med/Light armour. Adding the Fortified CP punches that up to 12,328 Resistances, past that threshold. And we haven't even factored in Major and Minor Resolve.

Oh, silly me, that's not the 9.5k WD you mentioned! I mean, hey, I might be missing some raid buffs, so let's just bump up that pre-% WD by 1035 in the best-case scenario for the old passive, just to bring up the final pre-Balanced-Warrior WD to a nice round 10,000.

Ah, in this case, the new Balanced Warrior passive is still 3.21% better than the old one.

But of course! Still kinda hard to reach 25k resists on a DPS. Let's find the cutoff point again.

274 WD. That's 13,700 Physical and Spell Resistance. For reference, a character with 6/1 Med/Light armour (10,597) plus Fortified (1,731) plus Minor Resolve from Combat Prayer (2,974) reaches 15,302 Resistances.

It's okay to be confident, but at least make sure your claims are actually accurate.

So, in PVP what do we gain/lose when hit by Major/Minor Breach for -10k resists, then add on unique debuffs like Crimson Oath, Alkosh and Crusher enchantment.

I was responding to an "optimized raid group" premise, and while I am very familiar with trial comps, I'm not that familiar with Templar PvP. If you can give me a build and the WD and Armour buffs and debuffs you'd expect to be getting from PvP, I can calculate all that for you.

After running some PvP numbers and comparing only old/new balanced warrior while ignoring the loss of minor sorcery, even with Major/Minor breach on my player, it basically boils down to this change being a substantial buff for heavy armor (gained ~400 spell/weapon damage on my heavy armor build + more resistances), marginal offensive nerf but defensive buff for medium armor (lost ~140 spell/weapon damage after modifiers but gained 2974 resistances), and a lateral change out of offense and towards defense for light armor.

Even accounting for the loss of minor sorcery, my heavy armor templar build lost ~150 weapon/spell damage after modifiers but gained a full 2-4 pc item set bonus in resistances. So this is a very marginal buff in stat density, but primarily a lateral move out of offensive power and into defense.

This change definitely favors tankier playstyles, which seems in line with their intended vision of the class.

That being said, I would agree with some of the previous suggestions to either raise the cap to 750 or increase the scaling to 1.5% of resistances in order to mitigate some of the losses to offensive power that non-heavy armor builds are losing. I think increasing the scaling to 1.5% of resistances would have the largest impact in mitigating the lost offensive power of medium/light armor builds, while raising the cap is more geared toward fully restoring the offensive power templar builds had before the loss of minor sorcery but really pigeonholes templar players into heavy armor or high resistance builds.

How is sustain on heavy armor build? If Templars are to invest in Heavy, there aren't any great tools to justify the DPS loss and Sustain loss is there?
It's always a trade off with Templar.

If we're comparing the future of the clas to the DK refresh, DK gets butt loads of damage multipliers while getting armor from passives, Sustain and healing while not having to invest in any stat other than damage.
Couple that with the high burst tooltip of whip and delayed burst from other skills.
NB has damage miltiplers with incap and burst with CW and Merciless.
Sorc has shields and burst with frag and delayed burst with curse.
Warden has huge burst with shalks on top of major and minor breach.

The list goes on. Templar is always getting the shaft with a trade off playstyle and a very predictable burst window and clunky rotation that is mostly buffing and rebuffing

I wear full heavy, but one of my sets is wretched vitality so sustain is not an issue for me.

You bring up all of these trade offs that, you are right, Templar has to make.

Ironically, part of the reason why I see this change as a good one is because it is helping to reduce the number of these tradeoffs that Templar players have to make.

Under this new change, I am able to invest in a heavy armor sustain set without sacrificing my offensive power, where previously it would have hurt my offensive capabilities a lot harder. The new balanced warrior adds a flat bonus to weapon/spell damage that can be modified by things like major brutality, fighters guild and armor passives, where the old one acted as a modifier and required a larger weapon damage base to get the most mileage out of. This key difference, in addition to the fact that the weapon/spell damage granted by this change scales off of resistances, allows the new balanced warrior to synergize extremely well with tankier builds, and serves as a legitimate source of offensive power to Templars when a 5 pc set bonuses must be dedicated to other things, like sustain.

This change hits the Templar players that dedicate higher levels of investment into offensive power the hardest (as the new weapon/spell bonus doesn't synergize well with already high offensive stats), but rewards Templars that invest into defense and sustain with a nice chunk of offensive power.

Overall, it allows Templars to build more defensively, which appears to be ZOS's intended direction for the class, without sacrificing their offensive capabilities.

It does put a limit on the offensive ceiling of the class, but allows Templars the flexibility to build more heavily into sustain or defense without losing as much offensive potential as the other classes.

Its similar to how the DK toolkit addresses the sustain issue which frees them up to build more freely into offense, though I do think DKs are still overtuned while Templars are more working their way back toward viability.

IMO it is a move in the right direction.

I prefer medium and run some protective pieces over heavy. Then again my plar is nord, so I have no issues reaching 33k armor even on live.