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Why hasn't DK been nerfed yet?
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TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
Core of Flame sustain has no place in the game in its current form. DK already has an extremely strong kit, and giving it effectively limitless sustain on top of that is exactly what pushes the class over the edge.
Class masteries actually help close the gap between pure classes and top-tier subclassing specs, giving pure builds access to tools that let them compete much more effectively. Obviously not every class is equal and some will still be weaker, but even if you completely removed Core of Flame sustain, DK would still be a top-tier class. It just wouldn’t be sitting two tiers above everything else.
You do not fix that by buffing every other class until they can compete with an obviously overtuned mechanic. Removing or heavily reducing Core of Flame’s resource return would address one of the biggest reasons DK can maintain constant pressure, healing, and defensive uptime with almost no meaningful resource management.
Subclassing balance is a separate issue. The existence of other problematic subclass combinations is not a reason to leave an unhealthy DK mechanic untouched.Edited by TheAwesomeChimpanzee on 10 August 2026 21:04TO THE PVP COMMUNITY: OUR ABSENCE IS FEEDBACK. DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE JULY 20TH VENGEANCE TESTS.1 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
And for everyone with a pulse that should be quite evident of where your skill level is.
Thats fine, plenty of people in cyro and otherwise have the opposite opinion, and the players ive killed in bgs including the one that dodged my duel request by going offline.
Everyone has a bad game, doesnt mean my opinion is wrong, i kill way more than I get killed.
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BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree0 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CannedChicken wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.
The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs
12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.
Yeah don't even know what you're trying to do here, this is just completely off topic and unintelligible. I don't think anyone here is arguing for any ball group buffs and most want shields nerfed, and guess what, they are. Your logic is just as bad as bardoks, just because you didn't experience it doesn't make it the case, if you wanna fight my group of 8 you'll easily be hit with at least a 30k whip regardless of what you want to build into unless you are just a block tank or in a % dmg mitigation ult.
No actual substantive argument ever from this side, it's very telling
If I try to solo your comped group of 8 where you all have lots of shielding, healing, multiple sourced damage buffs, and multiple sourced debuffs, One of your dks(you need some non dks in group to source all these different buffs) might land a 30k whip on me, DKs needs to be nerfed. Got it.
Hilariously wrong and bad faith engaging with what was said, but it's to be expected when you come on the forums and lie constantly.
Your original point, and this is a direct quote was " I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh"
I tell you I could hit you with a 30k whip inside an 8 man, keep in mind this is less than the max of 12. Now you are back pedaling and acting like that is my entire pint when my point was to prove your 17k number as being extreme was dead wrong. But sure, run from the point because you are aware logically you can't engage. Very telling.
To add on, DK needs to be nerfed because no other class in the game can reach the numbers a DK can, while also having access to the best CC in the game, and the best regen skill in the game ,and arguably the best class mastery in the game. Want to try a different line of argumentation or do you want to say something as fact from an anecdote, get your anecdote shot down, and then retreat to a strawman?
Still not proving anything. A 4 man comped group can achieve ballgroup status by just applying the same busted techniques the 12 mans use.
I've never seen a whip land for over 17k on me. If you think you can land a 30k on me with your group giving you all these buffs and debuffs sourced from other classes in conjunction as a team and use that as evidence that dk is overtuned. True.
I am proving that your 17k is wrong. That was the point of my response. How can you not understand that when it's been stated multiple times. Here is the flow of conversation since apparently you are having trouble reading.
You claim you've never been hit by a whip above 17k and that even against ballgroups with loads of buffs at the extreme end it won't and you get hit on average for 7-9k.
I tell you my group, smaller than a full 12 man, can hit you with a 30k whip easily, making your claim a bad anecdote.
You move the goal post and then try to argue that this doesn't make it unbalanced, I never said it did, that wasn't my point.
We are now back here, and you are once again claiming that doesn't make it unbalanced.
Is it that hard to follow a conversation?
Your hypothetical 30k whip that you will never land on me, because I build appropriately vs my anecdote actually playing the game and observing what goes on around me. You can argue your spreadsheet maths all you want. I agree, other classes and working as a comped group makes DK super op and brings it even more back. Big win for team effort, the other classes do well serving their dragonknight warriors. Lets nerf dk instead of all the other sources so that when the next thing does crazy damage we can repeat the cycle.
But you're still missing the point. Nobody is saying "nerf DK instead of all the other sources" in the sense of gutting the entire class. We're saying molten whip is the appropriate thing to target because that's the ability producing the ridiculous burst.
If your solution is to nerf all the external sources of damage instead, you're just moving the goalposts. You'll potentially nerf other classes, group play, and abilities that aren't inherently problematic just to preserve one overtuned skill.
And "the next thing will do crazy damage" isn't a reason to leave molten whip alone. That's an argument for looking at each individual source when it becomes a problem. If molten whip is the thing producing unreasonable numbers, address molten whip. You don't need to nerf every buff source in the game to avoid touching it.
I'm not necessarily against minor adjustments. It's just that I have a long memory of being on these forums, and in this game for 12 years witnessing sledgehammer approach to things time and time again. For the first time in like 9 years, my dk actually feels fun to play again, even if I have to deal with a bunch of people band-wagoning on the class and doing the most obnoxious, optimized sweat tactics on it to minmax their damage to excessive levels.
I'm also against shady argument tactics where things get posted on the extreme end, and then we're supposed to insinuate that this is a common problem. I've had my fun joking around with friends and putting together meme builds to stage wild numbers. Like a light attack build where you could kill a stationary target in 3 seconds with 1 fire staff light attack doing 15k crit in conjunction with old maelstrom destro staff backbar layered with an ult. Completely impractical as an open world build with any expectation of surviving even a single competent player spec'd to brawl.
Just look at werewolf. On pts, werewolf sustain is being targeted meanwhile the only reason why werewolf has infinite sustain is because sorcerer wws use conservation of energy mastery, and all the sweatiest min-max build hulk wws all coincidentally happen to be sorcerers. But their solution was to nerf WW directly, instead of the interaction and/or values of conservation of energy specifically.1 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
If your entire position is that the number is fine because it's uncommon, then actually explain why that should be the standard for balance.
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CannedChicken✭✭✭CannedChicken wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.
The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs
12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.
Yeah don't even know what you're trying to do here, this is just completely off topic and unintelligible. I don't think anyone here is arguing for any ball group buffs and most want shields nerfed, and guess what, they are. Your logic is just as bad as bardoks, just because you didn't experience it doesn't make it the case, if you wanna fight my group of 8 you'll easily be hit with at least a 30k whip regardless of what you want to build into unless you are just a block tank or in a % dmg mitigation ult.
No actual substantive argument ever from this side, it's very telling
If I try to solo your comped group of 8 where you all have lots of shielding, healing, multiple sourced damage buffs, and multiple sourced debuffs, One of your dks(you need some non dks in group to source all these different buffs) might land a 30k whip on me, DKs needs to be nerfed. Got it.
Hilariously wrong and bad faith engaging with what was said, but it's to be expected when you come on the forums and lie constantly.
Your original point, and this is a direct quote was " I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh"
I tell you I could hit you with a 30k whip inside an 8 man, keep in mind this is less than the max of 12. Now you are back pedaling and acting like that is my entire pint when my point was to prove your 17k number as being extreme was dead wrong. But sure, run from the point because you are aware logically you can't engage. Very telling.
To add on, DK needs to be nerfed because no other class in the game can reach the numbers a DK can, while also having access to the best CC in the game, and the best regen skill in the game ,and arguably the best class mastery in the game. Want to try a different line of argumentation or do you want to say something as fact from an anecdote, get your anecdote shot down, and then retreat to a strawman?
Still not proving anything. A 4 man comped group can achieve ballgroup status by just applying the same busted techniques the 12 mans use.
I've never seen a whip land for over 17k on me. If you think you can land a 30k on me with your group giving you all these buffs and debuffs sourced from other classes in conjunction as a team and use that as evidence that dk is overtuned. True.
I am proving that your 17k is wrong. That was the point of my response. How can you not understand that when it's been stated multiple times. Here is the flow of conversation since apparently you are having trouble reading.
You claim you've never been hit by a whip above 17k and that even against ballgroups with loads of buffs at the extreme end it won't and you get hit on average for 7-9k.
I tell you my group, smaller than a full 12 man, can hit you with a 30k whip easily, making your claim a bad anecdote.
You move the goal post and then try to argue that this doesn't make it unbalanced, I never said it did, that wasn't my point.
We are now back here, and you are once again claiming that doesn't make it unbalanced.
Is it that hard to follow a conversation?
Your hypothetical 30k whip that you will never land on me, because I build appropriately vs my anecdote actually playing the game and observing what goes on around me. You can argue your spreadsheet maths all you want. I agree, other classes and working as a comped group makes DK super op and brings it even more back. Big win for team effort, the other classes do well serving their dragonknight warriors. Lets nerf dk instead of all the other sources so that when the next thing does crazy damage we can repeat the cycle.
But you're still missing the point. Nobody is saying "nerf DK instead of all the other sources" in the sense of gutting the entire class. We're saying molten whip is the appropriate thing to target because that's the ability producing the ridiculous burst.
If your solution is to nerf all the external sources of damage instead, you're just moving the goalposts. You'll potentially nerf other classes, group play, and abilities that aren't inherently problematic just to preserve one overtuned skill.
And "the next thing will do crazy damage" isn't a reason to leave molten whip alone. That's an argument for looking at each individual source when it becomes a problem. If molten whip is the thing producing unreasonable numbers, address molten whip. You don't need to nerf every buff source in the game to avoid touching it.
I'm not necessarily against minor adjustments. It's just that I have a long memory of being on these forums, and in this game for 12 years witnessing sledgehammer approach to things time and time again. For the first time in like 9 years, my dk actually feels fun to play again, even if I have to deal with a bunch of people band-wagoning on the class and doing the most obnoxious, optimized sweat tactics on it to minmax their damage to excessive levels.
I'm also against shady argument tactics where things get posted on the extreme end, and then we're supposed to insinuate that this is a common problem. I've had my fun joking around with friends and putting together meme builds to stage wild numbers. Like a light attack build where you could kill a stationary target in 3 seconds with 1 fire staff light attack doing 15k crit in conjunction with old maelstrom destro staff backbar layered with an ult. Completely impractical as an open world build with any expectation of surviving even a single competent player spec'd to brawl.
Just look at werewolf. On pts, werewolf sustain is being targeted meanwhile the only reason why werewolf has infinite sustain is because sorcerer wws use conservation of energy mastery, and all the sweatiest min-max build hulk wws all coincidentally happen to be sorcerers. But their solution was to nerf WW directly, instead of the interaction and/or values of conservation of energy specifically.
I understand being wary of sledgehammer nerfs, but you're arguing against something nobody is proposing. Nobody is asking for DK to be gutted or for the entire class to receive some massive nerf.
The proposed change is extremely targeted: reduce the damage bonus per stack for molten whip specifically under battle spirit. That's about as far from a sledgehammer approach as you can get.
And the fact that extreme numbers can be produced with meme builds doesn't mean every extreme result should automatically be dismissed. The question is whether molten whip is capable of producing unreasonable damage in actual PvP, and it clearly is.
If your concern is that the developers might overreact, that's a reason to advocate for a targeted nerf, not a reason to leave the ability untouched. We're literally proposing the targeted solution you're asking for.0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
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The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
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NovelliESO✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
And for everyone with a pulse that should be quite evident of where your skill level is.
Thats fine, plenty of people in cyro and otherwise have the opposite opinion, and the players ive killed in bgs including the one that dodged my duel request by going offline.
Everyone has a bad game, doesnt mean my opinion is wrong, i kill way more than I get killed.
Okay? I've run around with over 1k kills and zero deaths?
[snip for flaming/baiting]Edited by ZOS_CouchTato on 10 August 2026 22:071 -
CannedChicken✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.1 -
NovelliESO✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.
[snip] The problem with necro was harmony and synergy damage, when both were nerfed, necro and harmony, it became a bad class but they do this all the time because they aren't good at understanding their own game, such is evident even recently. Signet was nerfed to not work in PvP and it was an issue because of ele sus, even after it was removed from working in PvP ele sus got nerfed afterwards when it no longer needed to be.
[edited for flaming/baiting]Edited by ZOS_CouchTato on 10 August 2026 22:080 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If they just nerfed VD it wouldnt have gutted the class, and the bombs didnt stop anyway, necromancer was just made a casualty for no reason.Edited by BardokRedSnow on 10 August 2026 21:420 -
CannedChicken✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
Why are we trying to nerf five other systems to compensate for one ability being overtuned? If you already recognize that molten whip is capable of producing excessive burst, why not address the root cause of the problem?
The proposed change isn't to gut DK or "ruin" molten whip. It's a targeted battle spirit adjustment to the damage bonus per stack so that a spammable isn't hitting harder than ultimate abilities in PvP.
You keep arguing that the build should be nerfed rather than the class, but molten whip is part of the build you're complaining about. If the ability is the thing turning all these interactions into absurd burst, then nerfing the interactions around it just creates collateral damage while leaving the root cause intact.
If you think class masteries, mythics, sets, or the crit meta are independently problematic, go make a post about those. This post is about molten whip.
Edited by CannedChicken on 10 August 2026 21:450 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.
That comparison doesn't really hold up. necro wasn't specifically nerfed because the class itself was inherently overpowered. harmony was the problem. It allowed synergies to produce one-shot levels of burst, which is much closer to the issue we're discussing with molten whip.
The fact that the solution ended up hurting necro doesn't mean the lesson is "never nerf the thing actually causing the problem." If anything, it's an argument for making the nerf more targeted.
You're the one proposing to nerf a ton of different things to indirectly address molten whip
That's exactly how you end up with the same kind of collateral damage you're warning about. If molten whip is the problem, why are you trying to weaken everything around it instead of making a targeted adjustment to molten whip?Edited by Teeba_Shei on 10 August 2026 21:492 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
0 -
CannedChicken✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
Edited by CannedChicken on 10 August 2026 21:551 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
Bro are you okay? He has literally addressed your point like 8 time and you're stuck in a recursive loop.1 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Adjusting the class masteries was considered a feasible means of adjusting and balancing core classes until all the refreshes were finished. The problem now is zos hasnt leaned into that enough. Adjusting them can address power creep much more reasonably than the historic slicing of core skills. Zos themselves have stated this and its why they dont want to make sweeping nerfs to classes anymore. Bringing up other classes rather than cutting down individual ones, especially when theyve only finished one class refresh and werewolf and people already attacking the second refresh before the third is out the doorTeeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.
That comparison doesn't really hold up. necro wasn't specifically nerfed because the class itself was inherently overpowered. harmony was the problem. It allowed synergies to produce one-shot levels of burst, which is much closer to the issue we're discussing with molten whip.
The fact that the solution ended up hurting necro doesn't mean the lesson is "never nerf the thing actually causing the problem." If anything, it's an argument for making the nerf more targeted.
You're the one proposing to nerf a ton of different things to indirectly address molten whip
That's exactly how you end up with the same kind of collateral damage you're warning about. If molten whip is the problem, why are you trying to weaken everything around it instead of making a targeted adjustment to molten whip?
How would nerfing the class mastery of dk cause collateral damage, or nerfing monomyth, neither of these things prevents a class from being playable. No class is solely reliant on monomyth, dk isnt reliant on the masteries, the crit meta was really exacerbated because of subclassing on top of monomyth so that addresses two issues at once.
Balance requires addressing multiple issues with nuance not sledgehammering one because its the newest boogeyman like werewolf0 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Adjusting the class masteries was considered a feasible means of adjusting and balancing core classes until all the refreshes were finished. The problem now is zos hasnt leaned into that enough. Adjusting them can address power creep much more reasonably than the historic slicing of core skills. Zos themselves have stated this and its why they dont want to make sweeping nerfs to classes anymore. Bringing up other classes rather than cutting down individual ones, especially when theyve only finished one class refresh and werewolf and people already attacking the second refresh before the third is out the doorTeeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.
That comparison doesn't really hold up. necro wasn't specifically nerfed because the class itself was inherently overpowered. harmony was the problem. It allowed synergies to produce one-shot levels of burst, which is much closer to the issue we're discussing with molten whip.
The fact that the solution ended up hurting necro doesn't mean the lesson is "never nerf the thing actually causing the problem." If anything, it's an argument for making the nerf more targeted.
You're the one proposing to nerf a ton of different things to indirectly address molten whip
That's exactly how you end up with the same kind of collateral damage you're warning about. If molten whip is the problem, why are you trying to weaken everything around it instead of making a targeted adjustment to molten whip?
How would nerfing the class mastery of dk cause collateral damage, or nerfing monomyth, neither of these things prevents a class from being playable. No class is solely reliant on monomyth, dk isnt reliant on the masteries, the crit meta was really exacerbated because of subclassing on top of monomyth so that addresses two issues at once.
Balance requires addressing multiple issues with nuance not sledgehammering one because its the newest boogeyman like werewolf
You keep calling a targeted nerf a "sledgehammer" when reducing the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit is about as surgical as you can get. Your proposed solution is the actual sledgehammer: nerfing DK's class masteries, Monomyth, the crit meta, sets, and other systems across multiple classes just to indirectly bring one ability's damage down.
You're proposing to weaken a huge number of systems that affect the entire game to avoid making a small adjustment to the one ability that's actually producing the excessive burst. That's the exact opposite of targeted balancing.
1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »Adjusting the class masteries was considered a feasible means of adjusting and balancing core classes until all the refreshes were finished. The problem now is zos hasnt leaned into that enough. Adjusting them can address power creep much more reasonably than the historic slicing of core skills. Zos themselves have stated this and its why they dont want to make sweeping nerfs to classes anymore. Bringing up other classes rather than cutting down individual ones, especially when theyve only finished one class refresh and werewolf and people already attacking the second refresh before the third is out the doorTeeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it
That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.
That comparison doesn't really hold up. necro wasn't specifically nerfed because the class itself was inherently overpowered. harmony was the problem. It allowed synergies to produce one-shot levels of burst, which is much closer to the issue we're discussing with molten whip.
The fact that the solution ended up hurting necro doesn't mean the lesson is "never nerf the thing actually causing the problem." If anything, it's an argument for making the nerf more targeted.
You're the one proposing to nerf a ton of different things to indirectly address molten whip
That's exactly how you end up with the same kind of collateral damage you're warning about. If molten whip is the problem, why are you trying to weaken everything around it instead of making a targeted adjustment to molten whip?
How would nerfing the class mastery of dk cause collateral damage, or nerfing monomyth, neither of these things prevents a class from being playable. No class is solely reliant on monomyth, dk isnt reliant on the masteries, the crit meta was really exacerbated because of subclassing on top of monomyth so that addresses two issues at once.
Balance requires addressing multiple issues with nuance not sledgehammering one because its the newest boogeyman like werewolf
At some point you have to be realistic about the scope of the solution. They don't have the resources to rebalance 90 different systems around one ability being overtuned.0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
This game is always being berated for balance, I think multiple systems do need to be addressed and nerfed. Also molten whip only hits this hard because of an ultimate. If you want to talk about the effects of corrosive armor then thats different.
The only way I'd be okay with them touching molten whip which feels amazing as is, is if they made it weapon damage based instead, and let dk gather ult in corrosive again. Weapon/spell damage is what it was at before, you get rid of the scaling issue alongside inexorable descent and major berserk on top of all that and also take flight for another ten percent, and corrosive molten whip wont hit as hard while also giving back some utility to the dk
Thats something i proposed before and people who really want dk nerfed agreed on.Edited by BardokRedSnow on 10 August 2026 22:080 -
NovelliESO✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
This game is always being berated for balance, I think multiple systems do need to be addressed and nerfed. Also molten whip only hits this hard because of an ultimate. If you want to talk about the effects of corrosive armor then thats different.
The only way I'd be okay with them touching molten whip which feels amazing as is, is if they made it weapon damage based instead, and let dk gather ult in corrosive again. Weapon/spell damage is what it was at before, you get rid of the scaling issue alongside inexorable descent and major berserk on top of all that and also take flight for another ten percent, and corrosive molten whip wont hit as hard while also giving back some utility to the dk
Thats something i proposed before and people who really want dk nerfed agreed on.
This is just wrong and has been stated multiple times. Molten whip hits harder than every direct damage ult.0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I never did agree with the idea that skills shouldnt ever under any condition hit as hard as an ultimate, the ultimates are about their utility as much as damage caused.0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
This game is always being berated for balance, I think multiple systems do need to be addressed and nerfed. Also molten whip only hits this hard because of an ultimate. If you want to talk about the effects of corrosive armor then thats different.
The only way I'd be okay with them touching molten whip which feels amazing as is, is if they made it weapon damage based instead, and let dk gather ult in corrosive again. Weapon/spell damage is what it was at before, you get rid of the scaling issue alongside inexorable descent and major berserk on top of all that and also take flight for another ten percent, and corrosive molten whip wont hit as hard while also giving back some utility to the dk
Thats something i proposed before and people who really want dk nerfed agreed on.
This is just wrong and has been stated multiple times. Molten whip hits harder than every direct damage ult.
When it does its usually boosted by take flight's effect or corrosive. Amongst other buffs.0 -
CannedChicken✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
This game is always being berated for balance, I think multiple systems do need to be addressed and nerfed. Also molten whip only hits this hard because of an ultimate. If you want to talk about the effects of corrosive armor then thats different.
The only way I'd be okay with them touching molten whip which feels amazing as is, is if they made it weapon damage based instead, and let dk gather ult in corrosive again. Weapon/spell damage is what it was at before, you get rid of the scaling issue alongside inexorable descent and major berserk on top of all that and also take flight for another ten percent, and corrosive molten whip wont hit as hard while also giving back some utility to the dk
Thats something i proposed before and people who really want dk nerfed agreed on.
This is just wrong and has been stated multiple times. Molten whip hits harder than every direct damage ult.
When it does its usually boosted by take flight's effect or corrosive. Amongst other buffs.
He's talking specifically about the tooltip being higher than any direct damage ultimate. How are you failing to understand such a basic argument?
Nobody is claiming that molten whip is literally better than every ultimate in every situation. The point is that a spammable having a tooltip that exceeds direct-damage ultimates is obviously worth questioning from a balance perspective.0 -
NovelliESO✭✭✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »..
Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the sameCannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »CannedChicken wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »
The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »testNovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »NovelliESO wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »
Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.BardokRedSnow wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.
Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.
Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.
You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.
You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.
And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.
You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.
You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.
Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing
I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.
Sue me
I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.
And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.
As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.
You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.
If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.
I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD
Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.
Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.
If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.
You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.
If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.
And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.
You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.
If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.
Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD
You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good
Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.
Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think
Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.
Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"
It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL
DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.
I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol
Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.
I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.
41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.
It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree
"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.
And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC
You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.
The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.
Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.
And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.
Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.
If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.
They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.
I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt
What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.
What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky
People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills
That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.
And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.
Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.
If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.
And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.
This game is always being berated for balance, I think multiple systems do need to be addressed and nerfed. Also molten whip only hits this hard because of an ultimate. If you want to talk about the effects of corrosive armor then thats different.
The only way I'd be okay with them touching molten whip which feels amazing as is, is if they made it weapon damage based instead, and let dk gather ult in corrosive again. Weapon/spell damage is what it was at before, you get rid of the scaling issue alongside inexorable descent and major berserk on top of all that and also take flight for another ten percent, and corrosive molten whip wont hit as hard while also giving back some utility to the dk
Thats something i proposed before and people who really want dk nerfed agreed on.
This is just wrong and has been stated multiple times. Molten whip hits harder than every direct damage ult.
When it does its usually boosted by take flight's effect or corrosive. Amongst other buffs.
No, the numbers on whip are just higher than the ults, regardless of buffs. Just take your CP out that buffs one and doesn't buff the other and look at the values.0 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭✭Subclassing caused this mess. DK doesn't need nerfed, remove Subclass. It is a broken cherry picking system. It can not and will not ever be balanced. It needs to be removed. They cannot deliver the refreshes that are only happening and necessary because of Subclassing. Remove it in a Single update and put the DK back to 3 skill lines, Healer, Tank, DPS. And then use the Class Mastery Passives to balance the other 6 normal Classes to the DK power level. It can be done TOMORROW. Not in YEARS like 2030 and beyond. This is happening because the greedy absolute minority in PvP thought it would be cool to have 3 of the same skill lines types. And it isn't. We have had over a year of the green beam and the worst balance in 11 years because of this greedy stupidity. Congratulations, you have, are and will probably sink this game. How has, is and will this ever bring more people to the game? You are driving away the core customer base, which is the other 20k people outside of GH btw. They are leaving the game.0
