MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Or you can hide behind three healers and whisper me offline.

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

I see you out there makin dk look silly on your subclass build also so im not surprised you know

Meanwhile someone messaged me from the forums from a bg game where they sat behind three healers and are talkin trash, i did 2 mil damage and they healed through it all and are calling me trash and messaging me while offline so i cant respond back xD

the people in these threads are just salty and want dk nerfed Just BecauseTM

Hold your L and whine more.

If a 2 kill 3 death match is the worst L i take i think im doin ok lol


Especially when that 2 kill 3 deaths match had me doin 2 mil damage against a team with 3 healers XD Sorry but thats not enough to embarrass me

A lot of excuses, but little talent.

Then why'd you turn down the duel request after appearing offline so I couldnt respond?

Appearing? I have to get ready for work unlike you. Terminally online, Petulant, delusional and untalented to boot.

But you had enough time to rant at me in whisper and tell me to stop posting, but not duel, understood.

You should follow my advice. Maintain a firm grip on your loss, and continue whining.

I will, 2 kills 3 deaths is far from the worst one can do against a team with 3 healers lol

In fact maybe dk should be buffed since healing is so strong in the game!

Oh, I get it now. You’re just a trash-can player who finally started doing okay in BGs because DK is broken, and now you’re desperate to defend it because you don’t want your crutch taken away.

That explains why you keep dismissing every actual argument about the ability as people being “salty” instead of addressing any of the points being made.

If that makes you feel better sure, im a trashcan player.

Bro you're beet red furious. You've got more replies to this thread than any other person.

I dont think anyone here can try and act like they're not posting here a lot xD But trust, Im not mad when one of yall decided to message me offline after they dodged a duel

All this again because someone suggested you do something different in the game, and yall are quoting every last response of mine again and again. But Im the one thats mad.

Again, why cant class masteries be nerfed for dk and everything else remain the same, then buff other classes masteries? Why is that suggestion being ignored?

Why would you target class masteries when molten whip is the issue? The only mastery that is uniquely increasing DK’s damage here is landslide, and even that is only 10% extra damage. You already get major berserk from chains.

A 10% damage increase isn’t what suddenly makes DKs capable of hitting 41k molten whips. If the problem is the absurd burst coming from molten whip, then address molten whip instead of nerfing unrelated class masteries.

Can you try to make one argument that actually makes sense? Do a little math? Maybe use a little logic?

Molten whip is affected by that class mastery, and its not the only one that can give more damage, lead from the front is free berserk every time we ult if you're not using wildfire embers for pyrebrand.

If you ask me dk didnt need class masteries and it shouldve been kept for classes that havent been reworked yet. But hey if you want us to keep them, I'll keep them.

Molten whip was nerfed specifically because of the existence of class masteries and doesnt grant additional damage after the stacks are built, so obviously that would contribute. People not satisfied with the suggestion of weakening the class masteries and strengthening other classes' masteries really just show they wont be happy until DK is entirely gutted

Molten whip has the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, even compared to direct damage ultimates. You have zero reason to complain about any nerf that hits this ability.

If an ability is doing damage well beyond what it's intended to do, you don't fix that by buffing class masteries for other classes. You fix the ability that's actually causing the problem. Imagine the balancing nightmare of trying to buff every other class enough to compensate for one ability being overtuned. What a dumb suggestion.

Im not complaining about it im saying that if you want a nerf, the class masteries is the way to go, as it no longer deals additional damage done after the whip stacks are built to 3 like it used to. They "re contextualized" the damage by putting more sources for it in masteries.

Nowhere did I say i was mad for that or wanted more damage. I was actually arguing dk class masteries should be nerfed.

Again if people think this is not enough, they just want dk gutted

The reason you don't care if class masteries get nerfed or removed is pretty obvious: you're subclassing ardent flame

Hun, let me stop you right there. I hate subclassing and i stopped subclassing the minute they made pure dk playable in subclassing meta. Im not subclassing my dk, he's pure and will stay pure unless they once again make subclassing the only viable way to pvp decently

Then you're somehow managing to miss the point even harder than I thought.

Probably because I wasnt talking to you, look who i quoted

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Or you can hide behind three healers and whisper me offline.

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

I see you out there makin dk look silly on your subclass build also so im not surprised you know

Meanwhile someone messaged me from the forums from a bg game where they sat behind three healers and are talkin trash, i did 2 mil damage and they healed through it all and are calling me trash and messaging me while offline so i cant respond back xD

the people in these threads are just salty and want dk nerfed Just BecauseTM

Hold your L and whine more.

If a 2 kill 3 death match is the worst L i take i think im doin ok lol


Especially when that 2 kill 3 deaths match had me doin 2 mil damage against a team with 3 healers XD Sorry but thats not enough to embarrass me

A lot of excuses, but little talent.

Then why'd you turn down the duel request after appearing offline so I couldnt respond?

Appearing? I have to get ready for work unlike you. Terminally online, Petulant, delusional and untalented to boot.

But you had enough time to rant at me in whisper and tell me to stop posting, but not duel, understood.

You should follow my advice. Maintain a firm grip on your loss, and continue whining.

I will, 2 kills 3 deaths is far from the worst one can do against a team with 3 healers lol

In fact maybe dk should be buffed since healing is so strong in the game!

Oh, I get it now. You’re just a trash-can player who finally started doing okay in BGs because DK is broken, and now you’re desperate to defend it because you don’t want your crutch taken away.

That explains why you keep dismissing every actual argument about the ability as people being “salty” instead of addressing any of the points being made.

If that makes you feel better sure, im a trashcan player.

Bro you're beet red furious. You've got more replies to this thread than any other person.

I dont think anyone here can try and act like they're not posting here a lot xD But trust, Im not mad when one of yall decided to message me offline after they dodged a duel

All this again because someone suggested you do something different in the game, and yall are quoting every last response of mine again and again. But Im the one thats mad.

Again, why cant class masteries be nerfed for dk and everything else remain the same, then buff other classes masteries? Why is that suggestion being ignored?

Why would you target class masteries when molten whip is the issue? The only mastery that is uniquely increasing DK’s damage here is landslide, and even that is only 10% extra damage. You already get major berserk from chains.

A 10% damage increase isn’t what suddenly makes DKs capable of hitting 41k molten whips. If the problem is the absurd burst coming from molten whip, then address molten whip instead of nerfing unrelated class masteries.

Can you try to make one argument that actually makes sense? Do a little math? Maybe use a little logic?

Molten whip is affected by that class mastery, and its not the only one that can give more damage, lead from the front is free berserk every time we ult if you're not using wildfire embers for pyrebrand.

If you ask me dk didnt need class masteries and it shouldve been kept for classes that havent been reworked yet. But hey if you want us to keep them, I'll keep them.

Molten whip was nerfed specifically because of the existence of class masteries and doesnt grant additional damage after the stacks are built, so obviously that would contribute. People not satisfied with the suggestion of weakening the class masteries and strengthening other classes' masteries really just show they wont be happy until DK is entirely gutted

Molten whip has the highest direct damage tooltip in the game, even compared to direct damage ultimates. You have zero reason to complain about any nerf that hits this ability.

If an ability is doing damage well beyond what it's intended to do, you don't fix that by buffing class masteries for other classes. You fix the ability that's actually causing the problem. Imagine the balancing nightmare of trying to buff every other class enough to compensate for one ability being overtuned. What a dumb suggestion.

Im not complaining about it im saying that if you want a nerf, the class masteries is the way to go, as it no longer deals additional damage done after the whip stacks are built to 3 like it used to. They "re contextualized" the damage by putting more sources for it in masteries.

Nowhere did I say i was mad for that or wanted more damage. I was actually arguing dk class masteries should be nerfed.

Again if people think this is not enough, they just want dk gutted

The reason you don't care if class masteries get nerfed or removed is pretty obvious: you're subclassing ardent flame

Hun, let me stop you right there. I hate subclassing and i stopped subclassing the minute they made pure dk playable in subclassing meta. Im not subclassing my dk, he's pure and will stay pure unless they once again make subclassing the only viable way to pvp decently

Why would they nerf class masteries when its molten whip that is causing the issue?

Molten whip will be less of an issue for you if dk's damage isnt as high which masteries grant. Molten whip has granted stacks of fury before and its not the only skill that works this way. Its only a problem to you because you see the result of that burst, there's more to it, a lot more than just the skill.

You're still conflating the damage of the class with the specific problem of molten whip.

Yes, DK's overall damage contributes to how hard molten whip hits. That doesn't somehow make the ability itself irrelevant. If molten whip has the highest direct damage tooltip in the game and is capable of producing the kind of burst we're seeing, then reducing unrelated sources of DK damage just to indirectly bring molten whip down is a terrible way to balance it.

And saying "there's more to it" doesn't actually address the argument. Of course there are other factors involved in the final damage number. That doesn't mean every one of those factors needs to be nerfed instead of addressing the ability responsible for the disproportionate burst.

If the problem is that molten whip scales too well with DK's various damage modifiers, then adjust molten whip's scaling or damage. That's what a targeted balance change is for. You don't nerf the entire class's damage just because one ability benefits from it.

The fact that you're listing all the things contributing to molten whip's damage is actually an argument for looking at molten whip and its scaling, not a reason to leave it untouched.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

Yeah don't even know what you're trying to do here, this is just completely off topic and unintelligible. I don't think anyone here is arguing for any ball group buffs and most want shields nerfed, and guess what, they are. Your logic is just as bad as bardoks, just because you didn't experience it doesn't make it the case, if you wanna fight my group of 8 you'll easily be hit with at least a 30k whip regardless of what you want to build into unless you are just a block tank or in a % dmg mitigation ult.

No actual substantive argument ever from this side, it's very telling

If I try to solo your comped group of 8 where you all have lots of shielding, healing, multiple sourced damage buffs, and multiple sourced debuffs, One of your dks(you need some non dks in group to source all these different buffs) might land a 30k whip on me, DKs needs to be nerfed. Got it.

Hilariously wrong and bad faith engaging with what was said, but it's to be expected when you come on the forums and lie constantly.

Your original point, and this is a direct quote was " I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh"

I tell you I could hit you with a 30k whip inside an 8 man, keep in mind this is less than the max of 12. Now you are back pedaling and acting like that is my entire pint when my point was to prove your 17k number as being extreme was dead wrong. But sure, run from the point because you are aware logically you can't engage. Very telling.

To add on, DK needs to be nerfed because no other class in the game can reach the numbers a DK can, while also having access to the best CC in the game, and the best regen skill in the game ,and arguably the best class mastery in the game. Want to try a different line of argumentation or do you want to say something as fact from an anecdote, get your anecdote shot down, and then retreat to a strawman?

Still not proving anything. A 4 man comped group can achieve ballgroup status by just applying the same busted techniques the 12 mans use.

I've never seen a whip land for over 17k on me. If you think you can land a 30k on me with your group giving you all these buffs and debuffs sourced from other classes in conjunction as a team and use that as evidence that dk is overtuned. True.

I am proving that your 17k is wrong. That was the point of my response. How can you not understand that when it's been stated multiple times. Here is the flow of conversation since apparently you are having trouble reading.

You claim you've never been hit by a whip above 17k and that even against ballgroups with loads of buffs at the extreme end it won't and you get hit on average for 7-9k.

I tell you my group, smaller than a full 12 man, can hit you with a 30k whip easily, making your claim a bad anecdote.

You move the goal post and then try to argue that this doesn't make it unbalanced, I never said it did, that wasn't my point.

We are now back here, and you are once again claiming that doesn't make it unbalanced.

Is it that hard to follow a conversation?

Your hypothetical 30k whip that you will never land on me, because I build appropriately vs my anecdote actually playing the game and observing what goes on around me. You can argue your spreadsheet maths all you want. I agree, other classes and working as a comped group makes DK super op and brings it even more back. Big win for team effort, the other classes do well serving their dragonknight warriors. Lets nerf dk instead of all the other sources so that when the next thing does crazy damage we can repeat the cycle.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

Yeah don't even know what you're trying to do here, this is just completely off topic and unintelligible. I don't think anyone here is arguing for any ball group buffs and most want shields nerfed, and guess what, they are. Your logic is just as bad as bardoks, just because you didn't experience it doesn't make it the case, if you wanna fight my group of 8 you'll easily be hit with at least a 30k whip regardless of what you want to build into unless you are just a block tank or in a % dmg mitigation ult.

No actual substantive argument ever from this side, it's very telling

If I try to solo your comped group of 8 where you all have lots of shielding, healing, multiple sourced damage buffs, and multiple sourced debuffs, One of your dks(you need some non dks in group to source all these different buffs) might land a 30k whip on me, DKs needs to be nerfed. Got it.

Hilariously wrong and bad faith engaging with what was said, but it's to be expected when you come on the forums and lie constantly.

Your original point, and this is a direct quote was " I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh"

I tell you I could hit you with a 30k whip inside an 8 man, keep in mind this is less than the max of 12. Now you are back pedaling and acting like that is my entire pint when my point was to prove your 17k number as being extreme was dead wrong. But sure, run from the point because you are aware logically you can't engage. Very telling.

To add on, DK needs to be nerfed because no other class in the game can reach the numbers a DK can, while also having access to the best CC in the game, and the best regen skill in the game ,and arguably the best class mastery in the game. Want to try a different line of argumentation or do you want to say something as fact from an anecdote, get your anecdote shot down, and then retreat to a strawman?

Still not proving anything. A 4 man comped group can achieve ballgroup status by just applying the same busted techniques the 12 mans use.

I've never seen a whip land for over 17k on me. If you think you can land a 30k on me with your group giving you all these buffs and debuffs sourced from other classes in conjunction as a team and use that as evidence that dk is overtuned. True.

I am proving that your 17k is wrong. That was the point of my response. How can you not understand that when it's been stated multiple times. Here is the flow of conversation since apparently you are having trouble reading.

You claim you've never been hit by a whip above 17k and that even against ballgroups with loads of buffs at the extreme end it won't and you get hit on average for 7-9k.

I tell you my group, smaller than a full 12 man, can hit you with a 30k whip easily, making your claim a bad anecdote.

You move the goal post and then try to argue that this doesn't make it unbalanced, I never said it did, that wasn't my point.

We are now back here, and you are once again claiming that doesn't make it unbalanced.

Is it that hard to follow a conversation?

Your hypothetical 30k whip that you will never land on me, because I build appropriately vs my anecdote actually playing the game and observing what goes on around me. You can argue your spreadsheet maths all you want. I agree, other classes and working as a comped group makes DK super op and brings it even more back. Big win for team effort, the other classes do well serving their dragonknight warriors. Lets nerf dk instead of all the other sources so that when the next thing does crazy damage we can repeat the cycle.

But you're still missing the point. Nobody is saying "nerf DK instead of all the other sources" in the sense of gutting the entire class. We're saying molten whip is the appropriate thing to target because that's the ability producing the ridiculous burst.

If your solution is to nerf all the external sources of damage instead, you're just moving the goalposts. You'll potentially nerf other classes, group play, and abilities that aren't inherently problematic just to preserve one overtuned skill.

And "the next thing will do crazy damage" isn't a reason to leave molten whip alone. That's an argument for looking at each individual source when it becomes a problem. If molten whip is the thing producing unreasonable numbers, address molten whip. You don't need to nerf every buff source in the game to avoid touching it.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

Core of Flame sustain has no place in the game in its current form. DK already has an extremely strong kit, and giving it effectively limitless sustain on top of that is exactly what pushes the class over the edge.

Class masteries actually help close the gap between pure classes and top-tier subclassing specs, giving pure builds access to tools that let them compete much more effectively. Obviously not every class is equal and some will still be weaker, but even if you completely removed Core of Flame sustain, DK would still be a top-tier class. It just wouldn’t be sitting two tiers above everything else.

You do not fix that by buffing every other class until they can compete with an obviously overtuned mechanic. Removing or heavily reducing Core of Flame’s resource return would address one of the biggest reasons DK can maintain constant pressure, healing, and defensive uptime with almost no meaningful resource management.

Subclassing balance is a separate issue. The existence of other problematic subclass combinations is not a reason to leave an unhealthy DK mechanic untouched.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

If your entire position is that the number is fine because it's uncommon, then actually explain why that should be the standard for balance.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it

That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.

If they just nerfed VD it wouldnt have gutted the class, and the bombs didnt stop anyway, necromancer was just made a casualty for no reason.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Keep in mind they nerfed necro because of necro bomb builds and it hasnt been playable in years. Rather than just nerfing vd they made that class unplayable instead and introduced arcanist on top of it

That is getting tiresome, no amount of complaining on outlier damage will get me to agree with gutting classes again. Just nerf the sets that allow and exacerbate extreme burst instead.

That comparison doesn't really hold up. necro wasn't specifically nerfed because the class itself was inherently overpowered. harmony was the problem. It allowed synergies to produce one-shot levels of burst, which is much closer to the issue we're discussing with molten whip.

The fact that the solution ended up hurting necro doesn't mean the lesson is "never nerf the thing actually causing the problem." If anything, it's an argument for making the nerf more targeted.

You're the one proposing to nerf a ton of different things to indirectly address molten whip

That's exactly how you end up with the same kind of collateral damage you're warning about. If molten whip is the problem, why are you trying to weaken everything around it instead of making a targeted adjustment to molten whip?

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

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CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

test

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for why i am okay with nerfing or even getting rid of the class masteries for dk its actually because i dont like the changes it caused for pyrebrand even if they are technically better, it made more sense before, and added some cost to how the heavy attack worked and how its damage scaled with how many dots you had up, vs wildfire taking the place of it to keep up your pressure. I liked it better when you had to make a more specific build for it rather than how it is now, i wouldnt care if they nerfed that, its too uniquely unusual compared to how other sets work and is unnecessary.

Also I find these threads and everyone yelling to nerf my favorite class annoying and think you can balance the classes by buffing everyone else rather than packing up DK the way Necromancer was. The core dk class rework changes are good, even without molten whip giving additional damage done. The reason they did all that in the first place again was to counter the subclass meta where dk and others slap on storm calling for increased damage against a target based on their total health, and hurricane, hence earthspike mantle, landslide and inexorable descent.

Until all that is addressed and they rearrange the sorc skill line, assassin, aedric spear and animal companion, nerfing dk just puts us back in the subclass meta.

You're mixing a bunch of different balance issues together to justify not addressing the one that's actually being discussed.

You can dislike what the class mastery changes did to pyrebrand, you can dislike the subclass meta, and you can think other skill lines need changes. None of that is an argument against nerfing molten whip when molten whip is doing disproportionate damage.

And the idea that nerfing molten whip automatically means "putting DK back into the subclass meta" is just a false choice. A targeted nerf to one overtuned ability doesn't require gutting the core DK rework, nor does it mean every other problem in the game has to be solved first.

You keep pointing to all these other things that need to be addressed as though they somehow make molten whip's damage acceptable. They don't. If molten whip is overtuned, nerf molten whip. If sorc, assassin, aedric spear, or animal companions need changes, address those separately.

You don't balance an overtuned ability by leaving it alone until every other class and skill line in the game has been redesigned. That's exactly how you end up with power creep instead of balance.

Yea because its not fun having your main spammable be useless and hit like a wet noodle again so you gotta go back to dizzy swing

I like having class identity and not having to switch to a weapon skill instead because people dont want to hold block or build crit resistances.

Sue me

I also think the targeting of molten whip as the source of all your woes is misguided, heck i am not even using molten whip on my current build im using flame lash and still will be after the nerf, its way better imo for pvp especially outnumbered or in groups. Im surprised thats not what people are begging to have nerfed, people are killing groups of players with power lash and VD and yall are here worried about a couple deaths from ganker build dks.

Nobody is saying your main spammable should be made useless or hit like a wet noodle. That's another strawman. A targeted nerf to molten whip does not mean DK suddenly has to abandon its class identity and go back to dizzy swing.

And the fact that you're using flame lash instead of molten whip doesn't really help your argument. If anything, it reinforces the point that the problem isn't "DK shouldn't have a strong spammable." The problem is the absurd burst potential of a specific ability.

As for "people are killing groups with power lash and VD," that's a completely separate balance issue. If power lash or VD are overtuned, then those should be looked at too. The existence of another potentially broken interaction doesn't somehow make molten whip balanced.

You're also framing this as people being worried about "a couple deaths from ganker build dks," when the entire discussion has been about the damage potential of the ability and the fact that it can reach numbers far beyond what a normal spammable should be doing. You don't get to dismiss that by pretending everyone is just mad about getting ganked.

If molten whip needs a nerf, nerf molten whip. If flame lash, power lash, VD, or anything else needs a nerf, deal with those separately. That's called targeted balancing.

I can and I will dismiss it because its so uncommon to the point that its irrelevant. Powerlash VD farming though is very relevant, the amount of kills I saw dc's emp getting in pcna off ep lol, I wouldnt be mad if people were begging to have that nerfed, though i'd prefer they just nerf VD

Nerfs should be because something is causing the game to be problematic for a majority of the player base, not because a few rare individuals managed to get a high score in their death cap.

Difference in outlook I suppose. Even if someone does smack me one day with 41k which even the emperors in cyro havent, its an outlier, and I will respawn and I will live. So will everyone else.

If this was literally the average dk burst or even high end player dk burst you encounter with high mmr in bgs or wandering into the wrong tower in cyro, then I'd agree. As it stands its not even remotely common. It doesnt need a nerf.

You're dismissing the 41k whip because it's uncommon, while simultaneously using an emperor farming kills in a heavily buffed group as evidence that power lash/VD is a major balance problem. That's a pretty obvious double standard.

If your standard is that something needs to be common before it's worth addressing, then the emperor example should be dismissed for exactly the same reason. Being emperor, fully buffed, and farming players in a coordinated group is hardly representative of the average player's experience.

And saying "I'll respawn and live" doesn't really address the problem. Yes, you'll respawn because you died. That doesn't somehow make getting hit for 41k by a spammable reasonable or balanced. The fact that you can continue playing after dying doesn't make the death itself irrelevant.

You're also still treating the 41k hit as though the argument is that every DK is routinely hitting 41k. That's not the claim. The point is that molten whip has an absurd damage ceiling and can scale into burst that a spammable shouldn't reasonably be capable of producing.

If you think power lash, VD, or emperor farming are problems, then go make a post about those things. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to discuss them. This post is about molten whip. Bringing up every other thing you think is broken doesn't somehow disprove the argument that molten whip is overtuned. You can address multiple balance problems independently.

Im good I adapt and do better not make complaint threads, plus i wasnt getting farmed in that vd fest lol. And that emp does this to the ep pugs like every other day lol, much more than ive ever seen a 41k whip xD

You literally just said a few minutes ago you weren't good

Bro yall calling me mad and you cant detect sarcasm or know the difference between saying im good as in "no thanks" vs stating im good at the game.

Yall need to take a break from this discussion i think

Who is yall, why do you blanket include me in this statement? You are more active than anyone here, I've made one comment here in the last hour, you've made over 10.

Then why is your comprehension of my statement so poor you interpreted it as bragging and apparently missed the sarcasm in "you're right, im trash"

It's hard to interpret "I'm trash" as sarcasm when you go 2-3 in a low MMR BG while relying on a broken class. Also, you are more active than anyone, you gonna skip past that comment as you always do? LOL

DK is too strong for multiple reasons, you going 2-3 isn't evidence that it isn't.

I addressed it like five times lol, they had 3 healers and we had none, if you think im gonna rage about one bad game of 2 and 3 youre gonna have to do better than that lol

Wow, you are so close to realization, you are right there bardok. It's almost like all of your arguments were shot down 5 times and you still continue.

I guess youre gonna have to keep shootin em down, because I still stand ten toes down on molten whip being just fine as is.

41k is not fine. The fact that you think it is should be pretty disqualifying for anyone taking your opinion on this balance issue seriously.

It is fine when its a severe outlier. Thats my opinion, sorry you disagree

"It is fine" isn't an argument. Calling something a severe outlier doesn't explain why 41k damage from a spammable is acceptable, it just asserts that it is.

The reason its acceptable is right in the same sentence, its rare. Very rare. Most players will never encounter that level of burst because you have to build like a glass cannon in a build designed for catching people individually unawares to rob them of telvar in ic.

And thats been going on since the beginning, its not unique to dk, people been getting one shot by various builds in ic gettin telvar snatched for years, heck happened to me too lol, thats just IC

You're not preventing that either by nerfing molten whip for everyone else who doesnt play this way because they'd die way more often than theyd land 30k plus whips on players,.

The fact that it's rare doesn't make it acceptable. If anything, the fact that the devs are actively nerfing ganking is pretty strong evidence that they don't consider extreme damage one-shots to be automatically fine just because they're uncommon.

Gankers are already extremely squishy and die all the time. That's the tradeoff for building into extreme burst. The fact that those builds are designed to catch people individually off guard doesn't mean the damage they produce is somehow exempt from balance scrutiny.

And "it's been happening in IC forever" isn't really a defense either. Players getting one-shot by various gank builds for years doesn't establish that the current level of burst is healthy or that every new source of extreme burst should be ignored. The game has changed plenty of times precisely because mechanics that were previously tolerated became problems.

Nobody is proposing nerfing molten whip for everyone because of one guy running a glass cannon in IC. The proposed change is specifically to reduce the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. That's a targeted PvP adjustment to an ability that is capable of producing absurd burst.

If you think the ability is fine because most players will never see its maximum damage, that's your argument to make. But "it's rare" isn't an explanation for why 30k+ damage from a spammable is balanced.

They nerf builds that are commonplace because people complain enough about them, in most cases. And, you can address gank builds without butchering a class. For instance the crit meta since monomyth dropped, the sets that people use in conjunction with those, those can be nerfed without ruining molten whip.

I simply dont agree with the idea that players should be punished because one guy achieved the high score, they should look into what those players are doing to achieve that and what players who are victims of it arent doing to prevent it, then nerf the build itself, rather than the class unless thats absolutely necessary and I guarantee it isnt

What I don't understand is that you've seemingly acknowledged multiple times that molten whip can reach excessive damage, but your solution is always to nerf everything around it: class masteries, mythics, sets, crit, group buffs, etc.

Because you can always switch out these things and change your build to something thats at least decent, and the class will still play relatively the same

What happens with whip and class spammables when theyre nerfed is players are then forced to go use weapon skills instead and ngl the new two hander weapon skill animations are terrible and clunky

People are having fun with dk because the class feels good to play as, I dont care about the level of power so much as what feels good to play. The level youd need to nerf molten whip so that one dude cant run around ic popping unsuspecting players would break that morph. It wouldnt even be worth slotting. Itd be flame lash until thats also nerfed, or weapon skills

That's exactly the problem with your approach. If you nerf a ton of different sets, mythics, masteries, and other damage sources just to bring one ability down to a reasonable level, you're nerfing every class and every build that uses those systems just to avoid touching molten whip.

And molten whip will still be the most powerful ability in the game. You've just weakened everything around it to compensate.

Nobody is saying molten whip needs to be nerfed into the ground or made unusable. The proposed change is a targeted reduction to the damage bonus per stack under battle spirit. You're jumping from "reduce its excessive burst" straight to "the morph will be completely ruined and everyone will be forced onto weapon skills," which is pure speculation.

If molten whip is currently capable of hitting harder than ultimate abilities, bringing that damage down does not mean the ability suddenly becomes worthless. It means it no longer has an absurd damage ceiling.

And if your solution requires nerfing a bunch of systems across every class just so you don't have to touch the one ability that's causing the problem, you're not actually solving the balance issue. You're just spreading the nerf across the entire game.