BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If 20k is too much for some of you, then I assume you just prefer a tank meta again where no one dies.

This is 99% of the problem with trying to have a discussion with you. You keep assuming what people think instead of actually asking them, and when I ask you a direct question, you just ignore it. It makes having an actual discussion impossible.

And again, you’re straw manning yourself. If nerfing this one ability slightly would somehow result in a tank meta, then that just further proves how overtuned the ability is. One ability shouldn’t be carrying enough damage to single-handedly determine the entire PvP meta.

Are you wearing pvp gear, have crit resistance, andor have spell/phy resistance?

What I see is those that go in with PVE light gear with all PVE enchants, traits, etc want PVP toned down because they do not want to change. I hate it when people only post half the story and it is only half because on the damage was shown and nothing else.

What are you CPs are they geared towards PVP or PVE?

All of this make a big difference.

This is the same story with the WW and now it is being nerfed to be non-existent. There is only one WW build that is hard and that is the Sorc WW but even then it has to be the right build. The rest are easily taken down.

ZOS, instead of taking peoples word for it, using simulation tools, and spreadsheets, please go in and actually investigate and test.

To the PVP whining/complaining community, learn to adapt and overcome vs constantly wanting ZOS to nerf everything because you refuse to change. No matter what ZOS does, you can never nerf a good/great player to be on the same level as a sucky/okay player.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

If 20k is too much for some of you, then I assume you just prefer a tank meta again where no one dies.

This is 99% of the problem with trying to have a discussion with you. You keep assuming what people think instead of actually asking them, and when I ask you a direct question, you just ignore it. It makes having an actual discussion impossible.

And again, you’re straw manning yourself. If nerfing this one ability slightly would somehow result in a tank meta, then that just further proves how overtuned the ability is. One ability shouldn’t be carrying enough damage to single-handedly determine the entire PvP meta.

It’s funny, I’d say these two skill morphs (Lash and Molten) are single-handedly bolstering (not causing it but making it worse) the tank meta.

Prior, I would never have thought of running over ~33k health but now, I see it as ‘how many whip combos am I going to take before I’m just uncontrollably insta-killed?’

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Are you wearing pvp gear, have crit resistance, andor have spell/phy resistance?

What I see is those that go in with PVE light gear with all PVE enchants, traits, etc want PVP toned down because they do not want to change. I hate it when people only post half the story and it is only half because on the damage was shown and nothing else.

What are you CPs are they geared towards PVP or PVE?

All of this make a big difference.

This is the same story with the WW and now it is being nerfed to be non-existent. There is only one WW build that is hard and that is the Sorc WW but even then it has to be the right build. The rest are easily taken down.

ZOS, instead of taking peoples word for it, using simulation tools, and spreadsheets, please go in and actually investigate and test.

To the PVP whining/complaining community, learn to adapt and overcome vs constantly wanting ZOS to nerf everything because you refuse to change. No matter what ZOS does, you can never nerf a good/great player to be on the same level as a sucky/okay player.

You can literally see my resist in the original clip, not that that makes any difference. I have 43k spell resist, full impen, and major protection.

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

corrosive also doesnt ignore crit resistance

This all goes back to when I originally said if people are seeing 40k whips on their person it is likely user error.

I'm full impen in the clip. Any other useless suggestions you want to give me?

Try rallying cry with full impen

Farstrider exists by the way. Any other useless suggestions you want to give to me?

It’s really funny that we all have to build just to avoid dying to DKs, while they only need to exist to kill us effortlessly. Every fix feels like a bandaid on a class that’s already perfectly balanced.

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

corrosive also doesnt ignore crit resistance

This all goes back to when I originally said if people are seeing 40k whips on their person it is likely user error.

I'm full impen in the clip. Any other useless suggestions you want to give me?

I need you to hold block and never ever let go. Block while walking through Arb, block opening the door, block while in your bag.

This way, the whip will only hit you for 20k which is more balanced of course.

20k burst is common in pvp and not even just from a three stack molten whip, spectral arrow was destroying people for this much and more when subclassing dropped

If 20k is too much for some of you, then I assume you just prefer a tank meta again where no one dies.

20k through block is insanity, I won’t lie.

I think block is overtuned in PvP but like, as of the current time, nothing should have the potential to hit like that against a person built with the resistances they have.

Im pretty sure thats not happening, people are likely being stunned out of block and getting hit however. Like in the case of op getting yoinked and not being able to.

How would that not happen? If the person in the clip had blocked, the damage would have been mitigated by block, which is 50% damage reduction by default. That puts the hit at roughly 20k instead.

He’s not saying that’s what actually happened—he’s saying that’s what would have happened if they had blocked. It’s quite literally just math. I genuinely don’t understand what you’re arguing against here.

i can burst heal through 20k, a lot of people can even not on dk

Yeah, we get it—you’re a god-tier PvPer with a .000001-second reaction time who can dodge-roll everything, pump out 30k heals, and instantly kill people because you’re just that skilled. /sarcasm

Except you've already proven your build and game knowledge are lacking in this thread with your suggestion to stack flame resist versus corrosive.

Maybe we should focus on realistic balance instead of balancing the game around your fantasy of how good you are. Most players, including you, aren’t playing at that level, and balance should account for what’s realistically possible in normal PvP—not just what a top-end player can theoretically react to.

Maybe he is Pelican/Godzilla amalgam, the avatar, the Shezarrine, Pelinal Whitestrake himself, a Dragonborn (that explains its defense of DK)

bring back harmony meta at this point, it did less damage

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Are you wearing pvp gear, have crit resistance, andor have spell/phy resistance?

What I see is those that go in with PVE light gear with all PVE enchants, traits, etc want PVP toned down because they do not want to change. I hate it when people only post half the story and it is only half because on the damage was shown and nothing else.

What are you CPs are they geared towards PVP or PVE?

All of this make a big difference.

This is the same story with the WW and now it is being nerfed to be non-existent. There is only one WW build that is hard and that is the Sorc WW but even then it has to be the right build. The rest are easily taken down.

ZOS, instead of taking peoples word for it, using simulation tools, and spreadsheets, please go in and actually investigate and test.

To the PVP whining/complaining community, learn to adapt and overcome vs constantly wanting ZOS to nerf everything because you refuse to change. No matter what ZOS does, you can never nerf a good/great player to be on the same level as a sucky/okay player.

How do I avoid taking 20k+ damage from whip when I'm in a fully buffed ball group running every possible buff and strong group set? I don't get why a skill and class rework that makes the harmony meta look underpowered by comparison has so many defenders on the forums.

You say its a skill gap, but the skill gap has been removed. Any low-mid player in GvGs can perform reasonably on par with significantly better players.

Think about it from another angle. Say you're a Silver/Gold player in CS going up against a top 50 player. Are you winning a 1v1 gun fight? No. Now imagine every gun killed in one bullet from any range to any body part. Play enough rounds and you'd probably land a few kills purely by luck. That's the problem with these mechanics: they don't help separate good players from bad ones. They just shrink the skill gap and limit skill expression.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In this game people used to complain everyone's too tanky and the tank meta is boring. Then they complain about balance and site other games like overwatch or whatever, and in those games they have mechanics that work like rock paper scissors etc where there are in fact scenarios where if pulled off, you'll die no matter what

Every time something is introduced in this game to handle the tank meta people complain until it is gone, like hrothgars being over nerfed for instance, tanky players were dropping like flies. All they had to do was fix the bugged instances and things would have been fine.

The game needs tank buster mechanics like corrosive to have a healthy pvp environment and not be boring. Corrosive needs to stay, if you want something nerfed look at the dk class masteries, and buff other class masteries. Thats what they're for in the first place and giving dk any masteries is the only thing I agree on as being too much, doesnt make sense when dk is the only class that got a rework.

The rest of this is meaningless complaining

You can't argue against a tank meta and defend corrosive at the same time. what other ultimate limits incoming damage to a small percentage of your hp? Mechanics that can encourage a tank and spank playstyle are very bad for balance. The fact that you can use that ult to buff an already insane skill like whip to hit 40k while taking so little damage is just nuts. DK has always been one of if not the tankiest class in the game anyways, it's part of the problem.

Luneca wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In this game people used to complain everyone's too tanky and the tank meta is boring. Then they complain about balance and site other games like overwatch or whatever, and in those games they have mechanics that work like rock paper scissors etc where there are in fact scenarios where if pulled off, you'll die no matter what

Every time something is introduced in this game to handle the tank meta people complain until it is gone, like hrothgars being over nerfed for instance, tanky players were dropping like flies. All they had to do was fix the bugged instances and things would have been fine.

The game needs tank buster mechanics like corrosive to have a healthy pvp environment and not be boring. Corrosive needs to stay, if you want something nerfed look at the dk class masteries, and buff other class masteries. Thats what they're for in the first place and giving dk any masteries is the only thing I agree on as being too much, doesnt make sense when dk is the only class that got a rework.

The rest of this is meaningless complaining

You can't argue against a tank meta and defend corrosive at the same time. what other ultimate limits incoming damage to a small percentage of your hp? Mechanics that can encourage a tank and spank playstyle are very bad for balance. The fact that you can use that ult to buff an already insane skill like whip to hit 40k while taking so little damage is just nuts. DK has always been one of if not the tankiest class in the game anyways, it's part of the problem.

You won't convince players that think DK was bad for a period longer than the 6 months ZOS made DoTs not stack from the same source (effectively nerfed DKs in PvP and PvE that ran mag builds). OH, wait, some still think taking reflect off wings was unfair even though at the time that reflect completely shut down all mag builds in the game.

Yeah, no getting through to them.

His arguments don’t even make sense, and he never seems willing to engage with anyone in good faith. A lot of the time, he ends up arguing against points he made up himself instead of actually responding to the person he’s quoting. At this point, it just comes across as him defending DK because he enjoys how strong the character is and doesn’t want to see it nerfed.

CannedChicken wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

This must be some exploit or busted set combination. I have never hit or been hit by a whip that was even above 30k. Also keep in mind that your resistances are completely irrelevant in this clip as the attacker got corrosive active.

And while I think corrosive needs a nerf or maybe even be removed/reworked, I dont think whip or any other purely offensive ability should be nerfed at all as long as it's possible to build 50k hp perma block healers.

So you think whip is overpowered, but because you also think perma-blocking 50k HP healers are overpowered, you don’t want to adjust whip?

You’re going to have to square that circle for me. If whip is capable of producing damage that you consider unreasonable, then the existence of another potentially overpowered build doesn’t really justify leaving whip untouched. Those are two separate balance issues.

There is always going to be something that is overpowered in any game, but that doesn’t mean we ignore it because something else is also strong. DK is the only class right now that is going around actually killing people instantly. That seems like a much more pressing balance concern than someone standing around holding block and being difficult to kill.

Exactly. It's not only perma-blocking 50k hp healers. Pvp has been plagued by hp stackers for a long time. As long as there is no hp cap of like 30k there need to be options to deal enough damage to burst down these tanks. There should be NO way to be unkillable in a 1v1 against a very offensive setup.
And btw if youre getting killed by every dk instantly, your build is the problem. The only times they normally kill me is in corrosive. Not with onslaught, not with damage procs, just corrosive. And corrosive is bad because it has no downside at all. It's just thumbless, just like werewolf. I guarantee you, if they removed corrosive, the problem would be reduced by A LOT. The problem is that most people complaining on the forums dont even realise if the opponent that killed them had corrosive active.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

In this game people used to complain everyone's too tanky and the tank meta is boring. Then they complain about balance and site other games like overwatch or whatever, and in those games they have mechanics that work like rock paper scissors etc where there are in fact scenarios where if pulled off, you'll die no matter what

Every time something is introduced in this game to handle the tank meta people complain until it is gone, like hrothgars being over nerfed for instance, tanky players were dropping like flies. All they had to do was fix the bugged instances and things would have been fine.

The game needs tank buster mechanics like corrosive to have a healthy pvp environment and not be boring. Corrosive needs to stay, if you want something nerfed look at the dk class masteries, and buff other class masteries. Thats what they're for in the first place and giving dk any masteries is the only thing I agree on as being too much, doesnt make sense when dk is the only class that got a rework.

The rest of this is meaningless complaining

Completely wrong. If theres one skill that needs to be removed or strongly nerfed it's corrosive. There will still be an option to ignore resistances, just not one with no downsides and godmode.

Nordstern wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

This must be some exploit or busted set combination. I have never hit or been hit by a whip that was even above 30k. Also keep in mind that your resistances are completely irrelevant in this clip as the attacker got corrosive active.

And while I think corrosive needs a nerf or maybe even be removed/reworked, I dont think whip or any other purely offensive ability should be nerfed at all as long as it's possible to build 50k hp perma block healers.

So you think whip is overpowered, but because you also think perma-blocking 50k HP healers are overpowered, you don’t want to adjust whip?

You’re going to have to square that circle for me. If whip is capable of producing damage that you consider unreasonable, then the existence of another potentially overpowered build doesn’t really justify leaving whip untouched. Those are two separate balance issues.

There is always going to be something that is overpowered in any game, but that doesn’t mean we ignore it because something else is also strong. DK is the only class right now that is going around actually killing people instantly. That seems like a much more pressing balance concern than someone standing around holding block and being difficult to kill.

Exactly. It's not only perma-blocking 50k hp healers. Pvp has been plagued by hp stackers for a long time. As long as there is no hp cap of like 30k there need to be options to deal enough damage to burst down these tanks. There should be NO way to be unkillable in a 1v1 against a very offensive setup.
And btw if youre getting killed by every dk instantly, your build is the problem. The only times they normally kill me is in corrosive. Not with onslaught, not with damage procs, just corrosive. And corrosive is bad because it has no downside at all. It's just thumbless, just like werewolf. I guarantee you, if they removed corrosive, the problem would be reduced by A LOT. The problem is that most people complaining on the forums dont even realise if the opponent that killed them had corrosive active.

That is not the problem. You engaged with nothing and ignored the vast majority of the comments in these threads. I have one simple question for you, try your best to actually answer it. Why does whip hit harder than EVERY single direct damage ability AND ult in the game?

Cause it has to be buffed up?! Why should it make as much damage as an ability that doesnt have to be buffed up? Also it doesnt really make sense to just look at the damage number of e.g. ults and ignore the additional buffs they often give you.

I agree, so why does the AoE version do the same?

Also your point of the damage not mattering is reductive and silly. If a skill hit for 50k all the time it would be an issue, so your argument falls flat there. There is a point at which a damaging ability just does too much damage.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

Yeah don't even know what you're trying to do here, this is just completely off topic and unintelligible. I don't think anyone here is arguing for any ball group buffs and most want shields nerfed, and guess what, they are. Your logic is just as bad as bardoks, just because you didn't experience it doesn't make it the case, if you wanna fight my group of 8 you'll easily be hit with at least a 30k whip regardless of what you want to build into unless you are just a block tank or in a % dmg mitigation ult.

No actual substantive argument ever from this side, it's very telling

If I try to solo your comped group of 8 where you all have lots of shielding, healing, multiple sourced damage buffs, and multiple sourced debuffs, One of your dks(you need some non dks in group to source all these different buffs) might land a 30k whip on me, DKs needs to be nerfed. Got it.

Hilariously wrong and bad faith engaging with what was said, but it's to be expected when you come on the forums and lie constantly.

Your original point, and this is a direct quote was " I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh"

I tell you I could hit you with a 30k whip inside an 8 man, keep in mind this is less than the max of 12. Now you are back pedaling and acting like that is my entire pint when my point was to prove your 17k number as being extreme was dead wrong. But sure, run from the point because you are aware logically you can't engage. Very telling.

To add on, DK needs to be nerfed because no other class in the game can reach the numbers a DK can, while also having access to the best CC in the game, and the best regen skill in the game ,and arguably the best class mastery in the game. Want to try a different line of argumentation or do you want to say something as fact from an anecdote, get your anecdote shot down, and then retreat to a strawman?

Nordstern wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

This must be some exploit or busted set combination. I have never hit or been hit by a whip that was even above 30k. Also keep in mind that your resistances are completely irrelevant in this clip as the attacker got corrosive active.

And while I think corrosive needs a nerf or maybe even be removed/reworked, I dont think whip or any other purely offensive ability should be nerfed at all as long as it's possible to build 50k hp perma block healers.

So you think whip is overpowered, but because you also think perma-blocking 50k HP healers are overpowered, you don’t want to adjust whip?

You’re going to have to square that circle for me. If whip is capable of producing damage that you consider unreasonable, then the existence of another potentially overpowered build doesn’t really justify leaving whip untouched. Those are two separate balance issues.

There is always going to be something that is overpowered in any game, but that doesn’t mean we ignore it because something else is also strong. DK is the only class right now that is going around actually killing people instantly. That seems like a much more pressing balance concern than someone standing around holding block and being difficult to kill.

Exactly. It's not only perma-blocking 50k hp healers. Pvp has been plagued by hp stackers for a long time. As long as there is no hp cap of like 30k there need to be options to deal enough damage to burst down these tanks. There should be NO way to be unkillable in a 1v1 against a very offensive setup.
And btw if youre getting killed by every dk instantly, your build is the problem. The only times they normally kill me is in corrosive. Not with onslaught, not with damage procs, just corrosive. And corrosive is bad because it has no downside at all. It's just thumbless, just like werewolf. I guarantee you, if they removed corrosive, the problem would be reduced by A LOT. The problem is that most people complaining on the forums dont even realise if the opponent that killed them had corrosive active.

Who is making the argument that every DK is killing them instantly? Can you point me to the person in this thread who said that?

You’re responding to an argument nobody made instead of addressing what I actually said. If you’re going to bring up “if you’re getting killed by every DK instantly, your build is the problem,” then quote the person who actually made that claim rather than attributing it to me.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Bardok on this. I regularly pvp as stage 3 - 4 vampire, dk and non dk. I've never been hit by a whip for more than 17k at the most extreme end(Ballgroup with loads of buffs and debuffs present... like a pve raid group huh). And even the occasional non-ballgroup ones that can hit me that hard, it still takes two of them coordinating ult dump focusing me to achieve that. The vast majority of hits I see are in the 7 - 9k range.


The 40k once in a lifetime whip vs



12 ballgroup members with a damage shield larger then a permablock necro in goliath form as an active emperor buffing the health pool, still not getting close to topping 120k, layered off a 57k base health underneath it. And there's 40k health dds in that group landing 50k 1gcd bursts sheltered by 50k -120k damage shields at all times.

I see you out there makin dk look silly on your subclass build also so im not surprised you know

Meanwhile someone messaged me from the forums from a bg game where they sat behind three healers and are talkin trash, i did 2 mil damage and they healed through it all and are calling me trash and messaging me while offline so i cant respond back xD

the people in these threads are just salty and want dk nerfed Just BecauseTM

Nice job selling out that the dude is on DK. Funny the only people advocating for no nerfs or less nerfs are the people on DK. Class carried.