DK Nerfs will get their own Patch Notes right?

Radiate77 · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

NovelliESO · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

It's funny you call it an echo chamber and at the same time agree DK is overperforming. Any time you have brought "facts" from outside sources they have only weakened your argument and you try to insult people when you realize you lack the ability to argue substantively. You can say as many times as you want that the people are underperforming but the best players know DK overperforms in almost every aspect in PvP. Do you consider yourself one of the best players? Do you genuinely think the best duelers, small scalers, and large group players think DK isn't the strongest both pure and subclassed option available? There are several people in this thread that perform at high levels and you try to randomly claim "lol you need more resist" as an argument when you have zero clue on what the person is running.

Have some actual engagement for once. You agree DK is overperforming but then try to obfuscate at the same time. This has nothing to do with subclassing when it is overperforming in every conceivable metric.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Have some actual engagement for once. You agree DK is overperforming but then try to obfuscate at the same time. This has nothing to do with subclassing when it is overperforming in every conceivable metric.

I would say carrying the convo is engaging

Overperforming is a vague metric. My definition of overperforming, its the best pure class. This is by design, as its a refreshed class with zos' goal of bringing pure classes up to subclassed levels.

This initiative is incomplete. They have class masteries to alleviate the class imbalance.

Just because I agree its overperforming doesnt mean i believe its so grossly overpowered that several skills need to be gutted. What I do agree with however is that small changes can be made so long as something else is gained, and other classes masteries can and should be buffed.

That this take is so controversial is telling to me.

NovelliESO · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Have some actual engagement for once. You agree DK is overperforming but then try to obfuscate at the same time. This has nothing to do with subclassing when it is overperforming in every conceivable metric.

I would say carrying the convo is engaging

Overperforming is a vague metric. My definition of overperforming, its the best pure class. This is by design, as its a refreshed class with zos' goal of bringing pure classes up to subclassed levels.

This initiative is incomplete. They have class masteries to alleviate the class imbalance.

Just because I agree its overperforming doesnt mean i believe its so grossly overpowered that several skills need to be gutted. What I do agree with however is that small changes can be made so long as something else is gained, and other classes masteries can and should be buffed.

That this take is so controversial is telling to me.

"That this take is so controversial is telling to me" Telling of what, your lack of understanding of the current PvP meta? I agree. I've seen you argue against literal facts people have brought up while posting your own "facts" that were easily shot down by your own lack of being able to follow a timeline.

You don't need to nerf "several skills" to balance DK, nor do you need to buff a myriad of other things in order to bring them up to par, that is way more time consuming and hard to balance. Simply reduce whips damage by 25% and bring the sustain of core of flame down to 8% per tick and the class is still stronger than the rest, both pure and subclassed, but not by a margin that needs as much attention as it currently does.

Luneca · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

An echo chamber would be the result of opposing viewpoints being silenced, which is not my goal but it does seem to be yours and those that want balance to stay the way it is. Post bait, false statements, and gaslight. What a boring playbook. It's not an interesting play and it's not a groundbreaking one either. Already light years ahead of you and your fallacious arguments, so far I've already experienced your response to this post.

You've still yet to refute anything properly or counter the argument that those two skills, that exist in the same skill line, are used by every DK there. I guess we can just say you not caring means that you simply cannot refute it, not that you didn't already imply that the class was OP because of those skills already in the first place.

As for reality, who is huffing and puffing on the forums -- the ones that are bringing attention to an issue, or ones trying to bait and derail so that the moderators silence opposing viewpoints and their cheese get protected?

Your opinion isn't weighted higher or lower than anyone else's on a forum. And you claim to be countering people "complaining"? Can you please demonstrate where you've actual posted a counterargument that wasn't bait, gaslighting, a false statement, or simply misguided because otherwise it would be an argument in bad faith?

And can you refute this: when every DK there is has the Ardent Flame skill line and slots both of those skills in PvP, and when you yourself have even stated that if the two skills get nerfed then DK would supposedly fall beneath subclassing in performance, how is it not OP?

Literally any class can put that line on and benefit. Any class can slot those two skills and benefit.

Come on, bring the counterargument. We're in a class and you are standing in front of us. It's time to teach us. But be ready for the immediate and obvious rebuttal. But surely you are since you've claimed that is what you're here for, and not just to run a noise campaign sprinkled with bait.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

An echo chamber would be the result of opposing viewpoints being silenced

No, an echochamber is merely a place where one or similar viewpoints are the dominant represented viewpoint. People come here to complain about the newest thing, a mythic, a class change etc. The complaining is almost always the most commonly seen thing on these forums. Night market, the signet ring, werewolf and dk are the recent examples. PvErs comment on this often stating pvpers so commonly get everything nerfed because pvpers complain the most. I dont know how true that is, they complain a lot to me also, but everyone knows if you want to get something nerfed, the forums is the place to go.

Negative sentiment here is the dominant viewpoint in general in this echochamber. Meanwhile most of the player base is just out having fun, be it on dk werewolf, sorc or necro, is what I see the most. That will continue if zos just buffs more classes and uses the class masteries for balancing more liberally.

As for refuting I dont need to refute anything, but i'll entertain you a bit, starting with this:

Luneca wrote: »

And can you refute this: when every DK there is has the Ardent Flame skill line and slots both of those skills in PvP, and when you yourself have even stated that if the two skills get nerfed then DK would supposedly fall beneath subclassing in performance, how is it not OP?

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

NovelliESO · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

"That this take is so controversial is telling to me" Telling of what, your lack of understanding of the current PvP meta?

Yea sure I dont understand the pvp meta im just here to rp

Not the best player around but I think I do okay for a "zergling rp forum trashtalker" like dc likes to say and worse lol.

Radiate77 · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Earthen Heart you have 10% damage from Landslide, 10% critical damage from Blessing of the Peak, the strongest CC in the game, an irreplaceable armor buff that adds damage to all of your skills, the best Major Brutality skill in the game giving access to a free proc of damage and you have access to Corrosive, the most problematic ultimate in all of ESO.

Draconic Power you have 7% increased damage to AoE and DoT through World In Ruin, Dragonknight skill dependent sustain through The Storm Voice, and 10% W/S damage through Elder Dragon. You have Major Expedition + AoE knockback + Snare Removal + 50% ranged damage mitigation in a single skill. You have the strongest burst heal, one that scales better than any other through Dragon Blood which also heals your group and provides Minor Courage for free. You have Ferocious Leap, the strongest burst ultimate in the game that roots on skill activation while working as a gap closer, is undodgeable… works pretty great with an unblockable CC like the one found on Earthen Heart… lands in an AoE, and provides a full health bar shield to continue your offense.

We already know that nobody is giving up Ardent Flame. So let me ask you again, what do you gain, that you do not already have within the kit, by Subclassing DK?

Radiate77 · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

Wings are a league ahead of Streak now, so that wouldn’t even make sense of an argument.

They provide Snare Removal, Major Expedition, 50% Ranged Mitigation, and Knockback AND* Stun everyone chasing you in an AOE.

Not only creating distance better, but giving you the tools to maintain that distance.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

easy, earthen heart, and streak does more than just get you clear, its also a built in stun. In cyrodiil thats grotesquely op in 1vX. The class masteries at best put you on the level with a dk using this but streak with hurricane in 1vX, still better.

The dk 1vXers that are pure class, well you dont see many of them anymore, but when you do its always VD and hoping to kill some squishies in a pack. The rest are subclassed with stormcalling.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Radiate77 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

Wings are a league ahead of Streak now

So much cap I could blot out the sun with this statement

Radiate77 · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

Wings are a league ahead of Streak now

So much cap I could blot out the sun with this statement

Wings do 5 things.
Streak does 3.

AoE Stun? Streak and Wings
Creates Distance? Streak & Wings
Does Damage? Streak
Ranged Mitigation? Wings
Snare Removal? Wings
Major Expedition? Wings

It’s simple math, @BardokRedSnow

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

Wings are a league ahead of Streak now

So much cap I could blot out the sun with this statement

Wings do 5 things.
Streak does 3.

AoE Stun? Streak and Wings
Creates Distance? Streak & Wings
Does Damage? Streak
Ranged Mitigation? Wings
Snare Removal? Wings
Major Expedition? Wings

It’s simple math, @BardokRedSnow

the mitigation for streak is the distance it creates upon activation, not everything is as simple as how it looks on paper. Three streak clicks youre out of range of most players. You also dont need expedition with streak.

NovelliESO · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

easy, earthen heart, and streak does more than just get you clear, its also a built in stun. In cyrodiil thats grotesquely op in 1vX. The class masteries at best put you on the level with a dk using this but streak with hurricane in 1vX, still better.

The dk 1vXers that are pure class, well you dont see many of them anymore, but when you do its always VD and hoping to kill some squishies in a pack. The rest are subclassed with stormcalling.

Easy to defeat this, legit not even remotely close.

Storm calling gives you streak, and hurricane as well as the passives it has.
These passives include 141 recovery of each resource.
5% physical and shock damage
10% reverse damage scaling (5% on average)
108 weapon and spell damage per sorc skill slotted

Here is how pure class DK easily beats this.

Lets go over the passives first.
141 recovery is fine but not needed at all because of core of flame.
5% physical and shock damage is fine and all, but it doesn't apply to most of your damage on DK.
5% damage on average is great
108 weapon and spell dmg per is fine, but you're only going to run 2, maybe 3 skills at most.

DK on the other hand gets landslide, 10% damage, healing, and shield strength. This beats out ALL of the sorc damage passives combined. 108 per is great, but direct % damage increase is stronger, the sorc 5% on average brings the difference between that and DK down to 5%, but the physical and shock damage accounts for less than half your damage and 108 per is less than 1% per. Landslides damage beats out all 3, never mind that it increases healing and shield strength by 10% as well.
DK gets 2,974 armor, which is akin to having a little over 4.5% damage reduction, which is almost on par with sorcs best passive, and it isn't even DKs best.
1 ult every 2 seconds, and 10% crit damage
As well as off balance and 1.4k stam every half second.

Lets also not forget that DK gets class masteries.

Remember how I just discussed that landslide itself beats all of the sorc damage passives combined? Yeah well lets just double the value of landslide with Inexorable Descent. This alone makes DK the much better option, sorc pales in comparison to the landlisde passive, give DK double the value on it and it's a joke to compare. DK would be better here every day of the week, but the best part is we get another class mastery on top of this to further the already insane gap.
Wildefire embers allows for good DoT damage but personally I'd take major protection and berserk when ulting. Build any amount of ult gen and this passive is insane, to be fair it's insane on it's own, but building around it in the slightest makes it just as strong as landslide.

The active skills on DK aren't as good, but the passives make up for it. Hurricane does more damage than shatterspike but this is the direct trade off since both give major resolve. Hurricane deals less damage until it grows, but it gives movespeed, and DK would gain a flat 100 damage on every instance of damage which is also strong. You can also just go for a 10k shield on the other morph.

Streak is the only mitigating factor which I mentioned before. Again, this is fine for getting away, when 1vxers fight they typically don't do it in an open field, that's counter intuitive. It's generally going around LoS and streak doesn't shine as much here, though it is of course still a good skill, but the ability to deal damage and heal from 2x landslide and major protection/berserk allows for much greater ability to mitigate pressure from enemies, nevermind DK having the best single target stun in the game. Plus, you'd also lose access to either the strongest shield on the game, which would get buffed even further with 2x landslide, or the use of corrosive. DK also has the ability to use Wings which is better than streak in smaller spaces in every aspect.

If you literally just want to run away constantly then sure go streak, but for EVERY single other instance, DK is objectively better being pure class.

Radiate77 · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

It’s only a real issue now cause the refresh delay. Nerfing DK will throw us back into the subclass meta which was way worse tbh. I’m tired of the DK meta, don’t get me wrong, but I’d rather live in this than the mutt meta we endured for a solid year.

Here’s a thought! Adjust some of the other class masteries like NB/Temp/Necro/Arc (NOW). That’s what they originally said they’d do, adjust them… it’s obvious which classes are suffering.

NB rework should be pushed up as well since it really is the class that has a problem in PvE, a class that

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As for this being 8 months ago, their message, I dont see why that even matters, subclass builds in the hands of top players still outperform pureclass dk and werewolf, and is still an issue for balance to the game. That the initiative was 8 months ago is pretty irrelevant. Nerfing pureclass dk and ww to a state that cant compete with subclassing at all is not just counterintuitive to zos' goal but its also likely to one shot the game's lifespan considering thats what nearly happened BEFORE the existing layoffs.

You think you're mad now lol if we return to subclass builds being the norm of what you see itll be far worse than the meta is now. Adapt, its really not hard to now especially.

Don't know what universe you are in, but on PC NA nearly all of the "top" players are playing DK

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Thats also why zos insists on buffing the other classes by using the class masteries mostly compared to just buffing their individual skills independent of it, so that subclassing doesnt inadvertently grow stronger. Pure class isnt meta right now, its still subclassing. Complaining about pure class dk compared to other pure classes is besides the point. You nerf dk down to pre refresh levels yall will be just complaining about the subclassed builds next that totally replaces them

Forest for the trees.

If nerfing 2 skills nerfs DK back down to subclass levels it literally proves those two skills were OP.

Then why don’t you play one and stop sieging on the walls, it might give you some new perspective

Having fought top players I know that’s not true, they’re subclassed builds which yea includes a line of dk half the time but not all the time. Plenty of them are just sorcs, no dk line at all

You can fire siege off the wall, you know. It's wild you insult me when we're on the same faction and I protect KC and Farra all the time by firing siege. Just ask AD, they love me. Lots. Though they still haven't found the siege shield button.

Also what you said does not refute anything. Again, it's more proof those two skills are out of line if every DK, even subclassed ones, take the skill line which contains both of them. If I am taking them on my subclassed "DoT" NB, it's a wrap.

Thanks for proving the point. Also you're wrong about something: pure class DK is the most powerful if you use a recursive build that wasn't nerfed on the PTS using Wildfire. I know because I'm cheesing archive with it, and it also is a problem in PvP with 0 counter and it kills people in 2-3 seconds.

Its not an insult, it is something you state time and time again. Stating that for the record here before mods claim I am harassing or something, you yourself say all you do is siege. I think thats important in a discussion for class changes.

And I dont need to refute anyone here, you wouldn't know what I am talking about because we do not fight the same fights or the same people.

Pure class dk is just the most common build you see and encounter, that doesn't mean its actually the top performing build. And its not, IA is not the same as pvp at all, not by a long shot. Even bringing up that in a pvp discussion proves the point better than anything I could say.

Now you keep posting your opinions, and feel free!

Oh I will, I could not care less what others here take seriously or not, this is an echochamber where people come to complain. Its not reflective of the actual player base.

I come here to counter all the people complaining about the next newest thing to upset them because unfortunately zos sees these forums and thinks its actually representative of reality and only now is starting to understand thats not the case.

I think many here realize that too and is why they react so harshly to a differing opinion. You say top duelers are pure classed, in my experience the only duelers I struggle with are subclassed. Pure class dk is not a problem compared to those, bgs cyrodiil or otherwise.

Funny you say that, because live data is more telling than anything.

At least 80% of the population on Xbox NA are playing either Dragonknight or Werewolf in Cyrodiil, Imperial City, or Battlegrounds.

Werewolf is becoming a lot less accessible through its excessive nerfs. There will be even more Dragonknights next update.

They’re also the newest reworked classes for one and for two I doubt their metrics account for subclassed dk

What do you gain for Subclassing DK?

Storm calling, which has three damage passives, streak and hurricane. Most subclassed builds have it. Its nasty even now, especially for the dot builds running it with thrive in chaos. DK using that have way more damage than pure class dk, and if they're pure classed its usually because of a group setup and someone else is subclassed.

The solo sweats tho almost all have stormcalling.

Give me your best argument on why you would give up a DK line for storm calling, what DK line you'd give up for it? The only scenario you do this for is streak to run away, otherwise DK as a pure class is objectively better, the passives are worse than just getting class mastery and the skills you give up are not worth it, again, unless you just want to run away, and I would be happy to prove that. I'd even steelman it for you and still shoot it down.

Wings are a league ahead of Streak now

So much cap I could blot out the sun with this statement

Wings do 5 things.
Streak does 3.

AoE Stun? Streak and Wings
Creates Distance? Streak & Wings
Does Damage? Streak
Ranged Mitigation? Wings
Snare Removal? Wings
Major Expedition? Wings

It’s simple math, @BardokRedSnow

the mitigation for streak is the distance it creates upon activation, not everything is as simple as how it looks on paper. Three streak clicks youre out of range of most players. You also dont need expedition with streak.

You create distance with Wings knocking everyone back, but you also don’t need Expedition from Hurricane when using Wings and you also don’t need Forward Momentum or Race Against Time for Snare Removal. See how that works?

Major_Mangle · August 8

As good as dk currently is, I'd pseudo unironically use storm calling even if streak was the only skill or passive the skilline provided. Let's not downplay how absurdly strong streak is and has been for years lol.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

This man made a diagram lol. Anyway, I still think the best course is to buff classes with class masteries, regardless of the opinion of DK. Dont see why or how anyone could disagree with that.

NovelliESO · August 8

Major_Mangle wrote: »

As good as dk currently is, I'd pseudo unironically use storm calling even if streak was the only skill or passive the skilline provided. Let's not downplay how absurdly strong streak is and has been for years lol.

Okay so respond to what I said then.

Luneca · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

See, you're at it again and cannot answer the question instead side stepping. Still haven't answered it, or perhaps you don't understand what is being asked. So let's try this again in different terms: When every DK, subclassed or not, has the exact same skill line no matter what and the same two skills on their bar, how is it not OP?

Also note that the idea that all classes use a certain skill line is false. Not every class slots their respective offensive lines when subclassing, only DK does it. On my healing warden for instance, I am not slotting a pathetic line like Animal Companions when there's Ardent Flame IF I am subclassing. On my NB, if going for a defensive build, I'm slotting Shadow over Assassination every time, etc. -- you're actually wrong about what people would do in reality with skill lines, do you actually even play the other classes? If you did, you'd know that for a majority of them, one size fits all cases is not a true statement. But it is true for DK's Ardent Flame!

Ardent Flame is a MUST SLOT on every class that's subclassed, because in that line you get far too much: best sustain skill, slottable crit buff on one bar that also does damage or heals, highest burst damage skill in the game in reality (no one even mentions merciless anymore btw), one of the strongest DoTs, healing, even a free snare and additional healing (8% unnamed) provided via passives !

Other classes would have to choose or hold two or more skill lines to achieve that, DK only needs one to achieve damage, healing, and sustain in one single skill line. And you are seriously trying to convince people it isn't a problem? It clearly sticks out vs every other skill line in the game, and even the skills themselves.

Let me guess, the argument will now move towards "its because rework" -- one problem: where's the other reworks? Until they materialize, it's a fact that it's out of line whether you or any other person playing the game feels it is or isn't. But do try and refute that without mentioning reworks, and explain how it's balanced in the current PvP system which is the topic we are discussing, not some future that hasn't come to fruition and may never come

Keep in mind: Nightblade had some skills moved around because of subclassing, don't be surprised if ZOS does the same to DK soon!

Also, it's funny how you came to the conclusion without me having to state which two skills. Why? How did you come to that conclusion? It can't be because everyone thinks so, because you just said that only a minority of players think that way. And yet you yourself can reach the same conclusion immediately?

You also stated that the skills are needed to compete with subclassing, yet they can be used with subclassing? How does that make logical sense?

And you talk about masteries being where to target, yet say that no DK is running a pure build, meaning that it would have little to no effect on the META by your own statements. How can you contradict yourself and why does this contradiction exist? I honestly cannot understand. Please explain.

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

See, you're at it again and cannot answer the question instead side stepping. Still haven't answered it, or perhaps you don't understand what is being asked.

And you talk about masteries being where to target, yet say that no DK is running a pure build, meaning that it would have little to no effect on the META by your own statements. How can you contradict yourself and why does this contradiction exist? I honestly cannot understand. Please explain.

I think you're the one that doesnt understand, I explained it pretty well already. And I skip a lot because yall type too much lol not everything has to be addressed.

As for masteries, you cant even get this right... where did I say no dk is running pure builds lol, I myself am a pure DK because Ive been playing dk since beta and prefer it.

If you cant get this much its not worth addressing all your paragraphs.

The classes that are considered to be underperforming as pure can be made stronger with masteries, its pretty simple. Sorc and necro already have, if zos likes they can increase them further, and to other classes, and I encourage them to.

Thats their whole point of existing in the first place. Balance doesnt mean nerf only.

Luneca · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

See, you're at it again and cannot answer the question instead side stepping. Still haven't answered it, or perhaps you don't understand what is being asked.

And you talk about masteries being where to target, yet say that no DK is running a pure build, meaning that it would have little to no effect on the META by your own statements. How can you contradict yourself and why does this contradiction exist? I honestly cannot understand. Please explain.

I think you're the one that doesnt understand, I explained it pretty well already. And I skip a lot because yall type too much lol not everything has to be addressed.

As for masteries, you cant even get this right... where did I say no dk is running pure builds lol, I myself am a pure DK because Ive been playing dk since beta and prefer it.

If you cant get this much its not worth addressing all your paragraphs.

The classes that are considered to be underperforming as pure can be made stronger with masteries, its pretty simple. Sorc and necro already have, if zos likes they can increase them further, and to other classes, and I encourage them to.

Thats their whole point of existing in the first place. Balance doesnt mean nerf only.

TLDR You can't answer it because you know that DK is overturned right now. Okay.

NovelliESO · August 8

Notice how what I posted doesn't get responded to after I dismantled how much stronger pure DK was. Interesting isn't it?

BardokRedSnow · August 8

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

See, you're at it again and cannot answer the question instead side stepping. Still haven't answered it, or perhaps you don't understand what is being asked.

And you talk about masteries being where to target, yet say that no DK is running a pure build, meaning that it would have little to no effect on the META by your own statements. How can you contradict yourself and why does this contradiction exist? I honestly cannot understand. Please explain.

I think you're the one that doesnt understand, I explained it pretty well already. And I skip a lot because yall type too much lol not everything has to be addressed.

As for masteries, you cant even get this right... where did I say no dk is running pure builds lol, I myself am a pure DK because Ive been playing dk since beta and prefer it.

If you cant get this much its not worth addressing all your paragraphs.

The classes that are considered to be underperforming as pure can be made stronger with masteries, its pretty simple. Sorc and necro already have, if zos likes they can increase them further, and to other classes, and I encourage them to.

Thats their whole point of existing in the first place. Balance doesnt mean nerf only.

TLDR You can't answer it because you know that DK is overturned right now. Okay.

The tldr is I did answer, you failed to understand. But whatever makes you feel better

BardokRedSnow · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

Notice how what I posted doesn't get responded to after I dismantled how much stronger pure DK was. Interesting isn't it?

Ima be real, it’s too long lol, I ain’t reading all that. You win.

AdonisJorge · August 8

NovelliESO wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

As good as dk currently is, I'd pseudo unironically use storm calling even if streak was the only skill or passive the skilline provided. Let's not downplay how absurdly strong streak is and has been for years lol.

Okay so respond to what I said then.

It’s useless. That person just keeps moving the goalposts every time. I’d rather buff DK because it’s more coherent with the lore, go go Akaviri!

Radiate77 · August 8

Major_Mangle wrote: »

As good as dk currently is, I'd pseudo unironically use storm calling even if streak was the only skill or passive the skilline provided. Let's not downplay how absurdly strong streak is and has been for years lol.

That should give you some perspective on how much of a problem Wings are in their current iteration, as they are a better Streak.

Luneca · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

every dk there is uses one of their three main skill lines and thats op? Lol then sorcs should be gutted immediately since every last one slots storm calling, every warden slots animal companion, nb assassin etc. And as for being op because of two skills, I assume you mean heart of flame for one our only sustain skill and whip our main and only spammable worth anything, literally the fact that they're needed to be in DK's kit to compete with subclassing setups shows the opposite, that subclassing is so grossly unchecked and unbalanced that DK had to have several skills totally changed in functionality in order for us to even be on par with subclassing builds.

Im actually surprised that this is where so many people focus and not the class masteries themselves. If yall really wanna argue about unfairness, thats where I'd start. DK before class masteries was good but everyone knew subclassed builds dk or otherwise were still better. DK after class masteries blurred the line.

If I were to concede on anything itd be giving masteries to classes that have reworks. If they kept dk the same but saved that for other classes I'd be perfectly fine with it. Nerfing the dk core class before subclassing has been put in check is pointless, youll just be replacing one general pvp population with another.

See, you're at it again and cannot answer the question instead side stepping. Still haven't answered it, or perhaps you don't understand what is being asked.

And you talk about masteries being where to target, yet say that no DK is running a pure build, meaning that it would have little to no effect on the META by your own statements. How can you contradict yourself and why does this contradiction exist? I honestly cannot understand. Please explain.

I think you're the one that doesnt understand, I explained it pretty well already. And I skip a lot because yall type too much lol not everything has to be addressed.

As for masteries, you cant even get this right... where did I say no dk is running pure builds lol, I myself am a pure DK because Ive been playing dk since beta and prefer it.

If you cant get this much its not worth addressing all your paragraphs.

The classes that are considered to be underperforming as pure can be made stronger with masteries, its pretty simple. Sorc and necro already have, if zos likes they can increase them further, and to other classes, and I encourage them to.

Thats their whole point of existing in the first place. Balance doesnt mean nerf only.

TLDR You can't answer it because you know that DK is overturned right now. Okay.

The tldr is I did answer, you failed to understand. But whatever makes you feel better

Bait used to be creative, instead it's reduced to this. 2026 continues to be full of disappointment.

I won't go back and forth with you. That's what you want to bloat up the thread so that the devs won't read what people are saying in opposition to the DK changes. Because you're afraid that DK might get nerfed. You've admitted as much from your multiple posts, and it's exactly why you cannot and will not engage any argument besides taking a sidestep.

Don't worry, I won't respond to you no matter how much you tag me. But I will continue to talk about DK. But you know, the more I talk the higher the probability of a nerf. For example, the Wings-Streak discussion above. I erased my response to it because it will get DK nerfed, now I think I need to put it back

NovelliESO · August 8

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Notice how what I posted doesn't get responded to after I dismantled how much stronger pure DK was. Interesting isn't it?

Ima be real, it’s too long lol, I ain’t reading all that. You win.

I always do. NERF DK !!!!!!