I'm more or less satisfied with everything about DKs in PvP except for one skill that makes them too strong compared to other classes - Core of Flame which restores 15% of your missing Magicka and Stamina every 2 seconds over 4 seconds. In PvP sustain is one of the most important things and because of this skill DKs can fight endlessly as they have practically infinite resources. If you DK and run out of mana and stamina but only have enough mana for this skill, after 4 seconds you'll have practically full mana and stamina, that's overpowered. I'd reduce the restoration from 15% to 7% specifically in PvP. 7% is enough and balanced. For PVE keep it at 15%. This will balance the class in PvP. DKs already have a passive that provides resources from their ultimate. That's enough. On top of all that it's one of the most tanky classes with infinite resources and with one of the strongest spammable PvP skills. Core of Flame needs a nerf

Those who say "wait for all class refresh" are wrong. The game needs to be close to balance now not in three years. Once all classes are refreshed ZOS can rebalance again, but right now DK is the strongest PvP class no matter what anyone says and the easiest to play due to its infinite resources

And in all honesty everyone here should want this as well, DK fan or not. My subclassed dk in that meta was far more efficient for 1vX than my pure DK is in this meta. If dk is nerfed and dk have to go back to subclassing, you'll have more things to complain about, not less. People are only mad now because they can pinpoint one instance of why they're dying so much and its DK or werewolf. Before they weren't as aware, they only know it was some form of subclass build, usually using animal companion, storm calling, assassination, and aedric spear skill lines in some or other combination.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

DK is actually considered one of the weaker DPS in PvE, so all the people wanting nerfs are PvP players. Just play Vengeance, you'll learn better habits in there anyway. ZOS is not going to balance live PvP anymore because they always seem to miss the mark.

Seeing that you clearly arent a pvper and have so much pvp disdain (though I have seen you in cyrodiil and I know you arent) you should really stop making comments like this.

Don't blame us for zos being unwilling to separate pve and pvp changes, and the only thing Vengeance teaches you is to zerg the lowest pop faction.

Why do you use keep calling me not a PvPer? Lmao I'll duel you if you want. DK is weak in PVE and a lot of hardcore players will agree with that.

PvP are quitting left and right because of DK being overpowered in PVP. But in PvE it's still weak and it got a Pyreband buff in PTS. I will celebrate ZOS balancing when balance is achieved.

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

DK has a single skill that sustains better than any other skill in the game. The only exception, is the sorc skill mastery. Sustain is very important in pvp. This single skill would be a great starting point.

You guys being flatly dismissive is strange at best. The problem isn't the players. Its the developers not making appropriate adjustments.

This single dk skill is better than skill mastery of other classes and makes it worth subclassing on almost every other class but sorc.

If you cant counter these arguments, stay out of the discussion. Pvpers aren't telling casual players what they deserve in their houses.

Don't forget that it also interrupt and has a delayed burst hitting for up to 10k+ tooltip.

It would be fine to leave DK as it is (maybe only nerfing sustain) if we had class reworks at a decent pace, but 6 months to a year of this abomination without anything even remotely comparable (look how fast they nerfed signet and ww) it's too amateurish,even for zenimax combat team.

And after nerfing power lash heal they even stated that they're monitoring the state of DK to buff some other skills if its too much lol

As someone who PvPs but has neither DK nor WW, I die to both of them but for different reasons. WW stuns me with aoe howl and then shreds the crap out of me when I can’t break free, and DK somehow prevents me from using any skills at all and stuns me and beats the crap out of me when I can’t break free. It just takes longer for the DK.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

DK has a single skill that sustains better than any other skill in the game. The only exception, is the sorc skill mastery. Sustain is very important in pvp. This single skill would be a great starting point.

You guys being flatly dismissive is strange at best. The problem isn't the players. Its the developers not making appropriate adjustments.

This single dk skill is better than skill mastery of other classes and makes it worth subclassing on almost every other class but sorc.

If you cant counter these arguments, stay out of the discussion. Pvpers aren't telling casual players what they deserve in their houses.

This is the best context for nerfing DK. When the best class that has been overloaded forever gets nerfed, then it's more reasonable to nerf the other things that are good.

Sorc has had everything for a long time. They can negate key areas, objectives, balls, and pulls. They can go into a BG with full ult and spam overload. They have great survivability and top escape/reset mechanism. They have an excellent combo setup for high damage that is assisted by their maneuverability. Now they have the best class masteries that can be leveraged into the best WW build.

It's been quite funny to find DK getting praised, but then turn around and see DK within the context of subclassing being a top build. There should be several changes to the DK including PvP concerns, weaknesses (yes), and it's class masteries.

When the clash refresh rolls around for anyones favorite class who is reading this, don't say that I didn't warn you. DK was changed in many ways that I wish hadn't changed with just a few things I see as being upside.

Melivar wrote: »

The PVP crowd will always want someone to be nerfed, it's just the DK's turn again currently. Since they can never be happy anyways as it's always something else, perhaps Zos just decided to not be bothered any longer who knows for sure.

The PVE and more specifically toxic casual crowd can never be satisfied without criticizing others for voicing their pain points and what is making the game less and less fun for them. Don't come into our house and tell us what we do and don't deserve. Its obnoxious and pointless

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

DK has a single skill that sustains better than any other skill in the game. The only exception, is the sorc skill mastery. Sustain is very important in pvp. This single skill would be a great starting point.

You guys being flatly dismissive is strange at best. The problem isn't the players. Its the developers not making appropriate adjustments.

This single dk skill is better than skill mastery of other classes and makes it worth subclassing on almost every other class but sorc.

If you cant counter these arguments, stay out of the discussion. Pvpers aren't telling casual players what they deserve in their houses.

We never charted into giving sustain help to all classes. Now with the precedences set by DK and Sorc, maybe it is time to experiment how other classes will fare when their sustain issues are alleviated instead of going backwards to that old dusty setup that will for sure induce 'tank meta with infinite sustain' complaints because we will all be back to that Wretched Vitality and Rallying Cry with some recovery glyph setup where you only have enough damage to kill someone who is not experienced, or not putting up a fight but not really enough to kill anyone who can put up a good enough resistance without calling your friends to xv1 down.

Like, didn't we want a pvp where people actually die instead of fighting ad infinitum if we are fighting people on somewhat similar or not a pushover skill level? I remember that sentiment, surely you do too since it wasn't that long ago and other classes are still stuck in that era. Maybe we need to have sustain issue be less of a problem in PvP so that people run full damage setup to kill and die.

But, if we go down to remove so called infinite sustain, Sorc one has to go too.

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

DK has a single skill that sustains better than any other skill in the game. The only exception, is the sorc skill mastery. Sustain is very important in pvp. This single skill would be a great starting point.

You guys being flatly dismissive is strange at best. The problem isn't the players. Its the developers not making appropriate adjustments.

This single dk skill is better than skill mastery of other classes and makes it worth subclassing on almost every other class but sorc.

If you cant counter these arguments, stay out of the discussion. Pvpers aren't telling casual players what they deserve in their houses.

This is the best context for nerfing DK. When the best class that has been overloaded forever gets nerfed, then it's more reasonable to nerf the other things that are good.

Sorc has had everything for a long time. They can negate key areas, objectives, balls, and pulls. They can go into a BG with full ult and spam overload. They have great survivability and top escape/reset mechanism. They have an excellent combo setup for high damage that is assisted by their maneuverability. Now they have the best class masteries that can be leveraged into the best WW build.

It's been quite funny to find DK getting praised, but then turn around and see DK within the context of subclassing being a top build. There should be several changes to the DK including PvP concerns, weaknesses (yes), and it's class masteries.

When the clash refresh rolls around for anyones favorite class who is reading this, don't say that I didn't warn you. DK was changed in many ways that I wish hadn't changed with just a few things I see as being upside.

Yeah, this is just a bad faith engagement with the problem. In your third paragraph when you say "see DK within the context of subclassing being a top build" you either haven't been following the updates on a patch by patch basis or are just heavily trying to protect DK, which is obvious based on the last response I gave to you. If DK was given a class refresh exactly as it was and there were no subclassing available to any class, DK would be even more absurd by comparison. Other classes can use DK abilities to make it more "fair" but if this existed without subclassing and only DK had access to the abilities it does, not being a DK would be a liability in PvP for the vast majority of instances.

The issue is the class refresh was put on the PTS 8 months ago. 8 months ago. It is now 8 months later and there are ZERO additional class refreshes. If they were rolling them out every quarter it wouldn't be as big of an issue because other classes would, probably, also get absurdly overpowered changes to their kit. Now, I would prefer DK get nerfed regardless and the new class refreshes come out as slightly strong, or just in line with what they should be, but there is at least something to be said if they were all coming out overpowered, but the issue is NOTHING ELSE IS COMING OUT. It will be over a year from when the DK class refresh came out to when the second one comes around, that is wildly absurd.

If I could take the pre-refresh DK, I totally would, but that's not an option. The complaints about a couple of the things that are powerful are not being put in context of that which DK lost which included very strong synergies in the Earthen Heart skill line, Battle Roar which didn't care about number of skills slotted, and even a bunch of thematic things that many players enjoyed.

DK has been picked on and subject to large changes throughout the history of the game. Wings was nerfed to the ground, flames of oblivion has been messed around with a bunch, ash cloud has been messed around with a bunch, whip has been messed around with a bunch, we straight up lost poison damage, Scribing gave everyone a chain pull, the most iconic ult in the game was changed to a group buff, and a million other things have happened over the years. And I've yet to mention that when trying to utilize some of the most powerful things in the most recent patch such as Shattered Paths Signet or Werewolf, that it's just best to not be a DK. Several class masteries are just useless with such setups. Like what the heck is that about? DK can't even generate ult while in Magma shell and meanwhile sorcs have infinite clownmode in WW form and Templars are spamming their heal ult on cool down. Make it make sense.

And if there are some valid concerns about DK, and no I don't really think that resource generation is one of them, but even if it is, changes to DK need to be considered in the larger metagame. That metagame involves a bunch of cracked sets that everyone abuses and nothing has been done about over the years. That metagame involves sorcs which have a cracked kit. That metagame involves a shifting goal post of balance due to upcoming class refreshes. Focusing on DK ignores long-term issues in a short-sighted way.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

It is because they can't accept that dying is a part of PvP and everything should be nerfed so they can win every time.

Yeah, this is really it whether they want to admit or not. Every pvp balance discussion starts out with someone dying to someone who they deem unskilled 'carried by something (in this case, DK)' in most cases.

DK has a single skill that sustains better than any other skill in the game. The only exception, is the sorc skill mastery. Sustain is very important in pvp. This single skill would be a great starting point.

You guys being flatly dismissive is strange at best. The problem isn't the players. Its the developers not making appropriate adjustments.

This single dk skill is better than skill mastery of other classes and makes it worth subclassing on almost every other class but sorc.

If you cant counter these arguments, stay out of the discussion. Pvpers aren't telling casual players what they deserve in their houses.

This is the best context for nerfing DK. When the best class that has been overloaded forever gets nerfed, then it's more reasonable to nerf the other things that are good.

Sorc has had everything for a long time. They can negate key areas, objectives, balls, and pulls. They can go into a BG with full ult and spam overload. They have great survivability and top escape/reset mechanism. They have an excellent combo setup for high damage that is assisted by their maneuverability. Now they have the best class masteries that can be leveraged into the best WW build.

It's been quite funny to find DK getting praised, but then turn around and see DK within the context of subclassing being a top build. There should be several changes to the DK including PvP concerns, weaknesses (yes), and it's class masteries.

When the clash refresh rolls around for anyones favorite class who is reading this, don't say that I didn't warn you. DK was changed in many ways that I wish hadn't changed with just a few things I see as being upside.

Yeah, this is just a bad faith engagement with the problem. In your third paragraph when you say "see DK within the context of subclassing being a top build" you either haven't been following the updates on a patch by patch basis or are just heavily trying to protect DK, which is obvious based on the last response I gave to you. If DK was given a class refresh exactly as it was and there were no subclassing available to any class, DK would be even more absurd by comparison. Other classes can use DK abilities to make it more "fair" but if this existed without subclassing and only DK had access to the abilities it does, not being a DK would be a liability in PvP for the vast majority of instances.

The issue is the class refresh was put on the PTS 8 months ago. 8 months ago. It is now 8 months later and there are ZERO additional class refreshes. If they were rolling them out every quarter it wouldn't be as big of an issue because other classes would, probably, also get absurdly overpowered changes to their kit. Now, I would prefer DK get nerfed regardless and the new class refreshes come out as slightly strong, or just in line with what they should be, but there is at least something to be said if they were all coming out overpowered, but the issue is NOTHING ELSE IS COMING OUT. It will be over a year from when the DK class refresh came out to when the second one comes around, that is wildly absurd.

If I could take the pre-refresh DK, I totally would, but that's not an option. The complaints about a couple of the things that are powerful are not being put in context of that which DK lost which included very strong synergies in the Earthen Heart skill line, Battle Roar which didn't care about number of skills slotted, and even a bunch of thematic things that many players enjoyed.

DK has been picked on and subject to large changes throughout the history of the game. Wings was nerfed to the ground, flames of oblivion has been messed around with a bunch, ash cloud has been messed around with a bunch, whip has been messed around with a bunch, we straight up lost poison damage, Scribing gave everyone a chain pull, the most iconic ult in the game was changed to a group buff, and a million other things have happened over the years. And I've yet to mention that when trying to utilize some of the most powerful things in the most recent patch such as Shattered Paths Signet or Werewolf, that it's just best to not be a DK. Several class masteries are just useless with such setups. Like what the heck is that about? DK can't even generate ult while in Magma shell and meanwhile sorcs have infinite clownmode in WW form and Templars are spamming their heal ult on cool down. Make it make sense.

And if there are some valid concerns about DK, and no I don't really think that resource generation is one of them, but even if it is, changes to DK need to be considered in the larger metagame. That metagame involves a bunch of cracked sets that everyone abuses and nothing has been done about over the years. That metagame involves sorcs which have a cracked kit. That metagame involves a shifting goal post of balance due to upcoming class refreshes. Focusing on DK ignores long-term issues in a short-sighted way.

You said a lot but you lack any actual understanding of the "metagame" you bring up so many times. You complaining about changes going back over 5 years ago are silly. Do you want people to apologize because wings can no longer reflect meteor? Plenty of classes had broken abilities that were changed, as they should have been. When your signature, like I mentioned before, is you upset about dk being nerfed, your continued complaining of, "DK has been picked on and subject to large changes throughout the history of the game" is just another complaint to add to the list because the class you want is being complained about, rightfully so, because it is currently much too strong.

The points you bring up are just wrong, or, bad faith, because you care so much about the class. DK is the NUMBER 1 FAR AND AWAY best class to have subclassed into in the current PvP meta, as well as the strongest stand alone class. All classes excel at certain things, some can get away easier, some do more sustained damage, some do more burst damage, some do more healing, but DK is the overall best by far. I'll address some of your points that are just... pointless. You bring up shattered path and WW and how it's not best to be a DK for those. Okay? Should DK be THE BEST option for everything in order for it to be good? Is that your actual point? Shattered path doesn't even work in PvP and WW being better on a different class isn't a legitimate pain point. Several class masteries are useless with every class on a bunch of setups, this is another moot point. DK not being able to generate ult while in an ult that makes you extremely tanky and also deal extreme damage in corrosive was the most broken ult in the game, it deserved not having ult gen while in that form and should have been nerfed in either the damage it did or the tankiness it had a long time ago. Magma also has the highest value shield for your group in the entire game. Again, do you want an apology because the most broken shield in the game isn't even more overloaded? This is akin to a kid getting a car for their 16th birthday and complaining that it was worth 80k and not 100k, it's just silly. You also don't think resource generation on DK isn't an issue and, I mean, it's obvious you are only arguing because you don't want DK to be nerfed into a point of it being in line with other classes because you rely on it being strong, but at least be realistic with the things you say. Imagine if I came on here and said "sorcs streak is underpowered as a tool to get out of a tight spot because even though it stuns and creates a good amount of distance, the ramping cost is bad design, the more you use it the less resources you have remaining, so the cost should actually go down !!"

Please try to have some actual meaningful input rather than just trying to complain because people bring up actual issues with DK in it's current form.

WalkingBomb wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

We never charted into giving sustain help to all classes. Now with the precedences set by DK and Sorc, maybe it is time to experiment how other classes will fare when their sustain issues are alleviated instead of going backwards to that old dusty setup that will for sure induce 'tank meta with infinite sustain' complaints because we will all be back to that Wretched Vitality and Rallying Cry with some recovery glyph setup where you only have enough damage to kill someone who is not experienced, or not putting up a fight but not really enough to kill anyone who can put up a good enough resistance without calling your friends to xv1 down.

Your solution to mitigate "infinite sustain" is... giving us more sustain? This vexes me.

Yes. Is the complaint levied against CoF and CoE not because the sustain disparity between reworked and unreworked classes? And because other classes run out faster if using same full damage setups and therefore DK and WW, and Sorc are in 'unkillable broken god tier' position (because they outsustain you, which means a win)? Isn't that the reason why WW's sustain is gutted in the form of skill cost increase as people proposed as a solution? If it is not, why the call for nerf to CoF and CoE? Surely, it isn't just a campaign against DK, WW, Sorc to a degree for the funsies. If so, vexes me then.

Also, say, we revert back to relying on Wretched Vitality as staple, aren't we still gonna complain about infinite sustains? History of PvP complaints suggests that Wretched Vitality, Orzoga combo with some sustain glyphs if needed was remembered as infinite sustain in the past. It was also called the 'tank meta' because everybody lacked damage to kill anyone not a pushover or in a massive lag. Where do we stop? Do we want to just light and heavy attack after 5 skill casts? But then, I remember PvPers being vehemently against that idea floated by ZOS before too. So, what do we exactly want?

Nordstern wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

We can nerf DK, but not without DK getting ult gen in corrosive again, and 3 percent damage mitigation instead of 6 also. Then you can have your little nerfs.

Imagine calling for corrosive to be buffed... Unbelievable. They should remove that thumbless ult entirely.

Most DKs can't fathom doing anything besides holding block and waiting for corrosive, similar to most NBs spamming cloak when they are about to die or praying vamp stealth works, or the "pro" sorcs immediately streaking/BoL away once things get hairy.

For them, PvP is riveting and this is the best patch ever. If anyone challenges whether or not that's good or fair gameplay mechanics they will all come out of the woodwork like the WWs and start posting bait.

But unfortunately for them, everyone, including them knows the truth. And as long as that is the case, everyone knows that it's only a matter of time before the nerfs come one way or another. If not, I'll just make a video and show why it should be nerfed.

I said I wasn't going to be in Midyear, but there's still time to show exactly why all three of the above need addressing, including corrosive giving over 100% damage reduction again.

I only play in PvP to fire siege or find bugs to definitely not use anyway. PvP is all about doing whatever it takes to win, right? As long as I win it's fair! Look, I'm becoming a "pro" ESO PvPer.

Wup_sa wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

We can nerf DK, but not without DK getting ult gen in corrosive again, and 3 percent damage mitigation instead of 6 also. Then you can have your little nerfs.

Imagine calling for corrosive to be buffed... Unbelievable. They should remove that thumbless ult entirely.

Most DKs can't fathom doing anything besides holding block and waiting for corrosive, similar to most NBs spamming cloak when they are about to die or praying vamp stealth works, or the "pro" sorcs immediately streaking/BoL away once things get hairy.

For them, PvP is riveting and this is the best patch ever. If anyone challenges whether or not that's good or fair gameplay mechanics they will all come out of the woodwork like the WWs and start posting bait.

But unfortunately for them, everyone, including them knows the truth. And as long as that is the case, everyone knows that it's only a matter of time before the nerfs come one way or another. If not, I'll just make a video and show why it should be nerfed.

I said I wasn't going to be in Midyear, but there's still time to show exactly why all three of the above need addressing, including corrosive giving over 100% damage reduction again.

I only play in PvP to fire siege or find bugs to definitely not use anyway. PvP is all about doing whatever it takes to win, right? As long as I win it's fair! Look, I'm becoming a "pro" ESO PvPer.

Corro is actually a really weak ult, its only for noob stomping. Try using it against any experienced player and they will kite it out. It's more of an IQ test rather than a strong ult. Onslaught on the other hand, if you don't break free the instance you get hard CCd youll get one shot by delayed bursts.

As for dk, it was a horrible mistake by the devs to make sustain tied to a skill, when passives like battleroar and combustion existed, that could have been just buffed. It would have prevented the permablock dks when dk would be forced to apply burning even while on the defense to gain resources. but even then the nerf would just make dks use bear haunch again and play with 0 sustain issues again. The most problematic skills dk are the wings with how loaded the skill is and how it breaks the line of sight rules.

I think we need buff DK, they are very underpowered right now.

COF needs to restore 50% max resources based on the missing resources (that include ultimate)

Corrosive needs to reduce all incoming damage to 3% and cost only 100 ultimate, also DK needs to be capable of generating ultimate while in corrosive and have its duration extended to 30 seconds

Whip needs to do Oblivion damage when full stacked

Wings needs to have their duration extended to 1 minute

How dare you even deighn to suggest DK is anything but the underdog of ESO! What Heresy to call for nerfs! You know what, Ive seen enough, another buff for his majesty lord DK of Elder Dks Online the true dragonborn and emperor. Give Core of Flame Major force and Major heroism. May his whips forever be oblivion dmg and his blocking be eternal