WHY IS ESO PVP DYING? This we all agree on

Wuuffyy · July 24

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

No, I didn't miss the memo. I'm aware players can achieve high sustain but, generally, there's a greater resource allocation to do so. Whether we're talking gear sets or skill slots, those are all active allocation of available resources in a build, whereas CoE is purely a passive; That's a very big deal. Receiving that high of a level of sustain without having to dedicate pieces of gear, pots, or a skill slot opens up build potential quite a bit.

The reason that, IMO, it makes sense on Sorc is because their IN-CLASS damage kit is mechanically weaker than most of the field. This doesn't include world & weapon skills since one wouldn't consider those when building class-specific attributes.

When it comes to other pure-classes being more viable in both PvE and PvP, I do agree, that most of the Mastery Passives do not deliver on that. Myself and others said this on the PTS threads; we knew that not all of the passives were going to deliver the needed power, especially in PvP ... but ... giving everyone strong passive resource sustain doesn't make sense because not all classes execute their functions (mechanically) the same way; this is why each classes Mastery passives focus on something different.

When it comes to Sorcs one big thing people never like to admit is that, as a class, they're utility heavy. They're good for pressure but not for the immediate & instant burst or cleave that the current state of PvP demands. Experienced players are all very much aware of how to counter Sorc pressure and it's easy to do because of the longer time-frame needed for their class skills to do anything. That extra time is what gives opponents the ability to easily counter. This is why the lions share of Sorcs go Stam and slot skills from world & weapon skill trees because those skills deliver the insta-cast, immediate high scale burst that's needed for PvP. The same goes for the Mag Sorcs, slotting skills like Wield Soul & Crushing Shock by default since the in-class kit can't deliver insta-burst.

This is why a strong, passive, sustain makes sense on a Sorc, because it reinforces their ability to maintain that pressure over time with their class kit, whereas everyone else is using their class kits to stack instances of heavy insta-burst for quicker kills.

Another difference though, is that Sorcs pay a W/S penalty for slotting outside of the class to get access to those heavier burst mechanics that most other classes already have. So while I can understand the high sustain passive on Sorc, it doesn't make sense on other classes, save maybe for Templar. Other classes that have in-class access to mechanics have to dedicate active resources to achieve higher sustain and that goes to balance.

Mastery passives need to align with classes. Giving everyone the same thing is precisely what subclassing did and that's what broke PvP worse than it's ever been. Strong passive sustain on a Sorc is one thing, but passive sustain that strong on, say, a NB is something completely different. It doesn't necessarily bring everyone more in line to do that.

Fully disagree. You wish for this game to be stuck, unable to move forward.

You completely disregard that ‘infinite sustain’ has been possible in the highest forums of content already for PvP (dueling good players, ball groups, full-on zergs). The solution to this (for better or worse) has always been burst (onslaught, corro, AoE bomb with VD, etc.). This is simply allowing those that aren’t in a tightly knit ball group and/or on non-reworked class to better compete.

This isn’t an awful direction and there is still plenty of room to make mistakes even in this type of combat setting. I love mentioning the ‘Morrowind sustain nerfs’ having drove a lot of the player base away… because it did. Sustain looked very similar to perma core-of-flame-up prior and a hefty majority of players obviously didn’t have an issue with it, especially since removing this caused such a catastrophic loss in players.

Lucasl402 · July 24

ESO PvP struggles because ZOS doesn't make any noteworthy efforts to improve it. Vengeance doesn't count because it's not really PvP and it's not an effort to improve GH PvP.

NxJoeyD · July 24

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

No, I didn't miss the memo. I'm aware players can achieve high sustain but, generally, there's a greater resource allocation to do so. Whether we're talking gear sets or skill slots, those are all active allocation of available resources in a build, whereas CoE is purely a passive; That's a very big deal. Receiving that high of a level of sustain without having to dedicate pieces of gear, pots, or a skill slot opens up build potential quite a bit.

The reason that, IMO, it makes sense on Sorc is because their IN-CLASS damage kit is mechanically weaker than most of the field. This doesn't include world & weapon skills since one wouldn't consider those when building class-specific attributes.

When it comes to other pure-classes being more viable in both PvE and PvP, I do agree, that most of the Mastery Passives do not deliver on that. Myself and others said this on the PTS threads; we knew that not all of the passives were going to deliver the needed power, especially in PvP ... but ... giving everyone strong passive resource sustain doesn't make sense because not all classes execute their functions (mechanically) the same way; this is why each classes Mastery passives focus on something different.

When it comes to Sorcs one big thing people never like to admit is that, as a class, they're utility heavy. They're good for pressure but not for the immediate & instant burst or cleave that the current state of PvP demands. Experienced players are all very much aware of how to counter Sorc pressure and it's easy to do because of the longer time-frame needed for their class skills to do anything. That extra time is what gives opponents the ability to easily counter. This is why the lions share of Sorcs go Stam and slot skills from world & weapon skill trees because those skills deliver the insta-cast, immediate high scale burst that's needed for PvP. The same goes for the Mag Sorcs, slotting skills like Wield Soul & Crushing Shock by default since the in-class kit can't deliver insta-burst.

This is why a strong, passive, sustain makes sense on a Sorc, because it reinforces their ability to maintain that pressure over time with their class kit, whereas everyone else is using their class kits to stack instances of heavy insta-burst for quicker kills.

Another difference though, is that Sorcs pay a W/S penalty for slotting outside of the class to get access to those heavier burst mechanics that most other classes already have. So while I can understand the high sustain passive on Sorc, it doesn't make sense on other classes, save maybe for Templar. Other classes that have in-class access to mechanics have to dedicate active resources to achieve higher sustain and that goes to balance.

Mastery passives need to align with classes. Giving everyone the same thing is precisely what subclassing did and that's what broke PvP worse than it's ever been. Strong passive sustain on a Sorc is one thing, but passive sustain that strong on, say, a NB is something completely different. It doesn't necessarily bring everyone more in line to do that.

Fully disagree. You wish for this game to be stuck, unable to move forward.

You completely disregard that ‘infinite sustain’ has been possible in the highest forums of content already for PvP (dueling good players, ball groups, full-on zergs). The solution to this (for better or worse) has always been burst (onslaught, corro, AoE bomb with VD, etc.). This is simply allowing those that aren’t in a tightly knit ball group and/or on non-reworked class to better compete.

This isn’t an awful direction and there is still plenty of room to make mistakes even in this type of combat setting. I love mentioning the ‘Morrowind sustain nerfs’ having drove a lot of the player base away… because it did. Sustain looked very similar to perma core-of-flame-up prior and a hefty majority of players obviously didn’t have an issue with it, especially since removing this caused such a catastrophic loss in players.

High sustain has been possible, yes, and I acknowledge that if you read what I wrote .. but .. that sustain comes with a higher build cost, it's not as cheap as a single passive.

Being able to achieve high sustain and being able to achieve high sustain from a singular passive are not the same thing. One requires a higher build cost than the other; that higher build cost takes away from build potentials elsewhere, and that's the point.

The current game state isn't Morrowind. I want the game to move forward but I want it to move forward in a more balanced way. This means that I'm looking at thigs how they are now, not how they were. Subclassing changed nearly everything pertaining to combat logic & balance.

I'm trying to get away from pouring more fuel on the same fire that's been eroding PvP. Not everyone needs "cheap" high sustain. If a players build needs to focus more on sustain there are ways they can do that but not everyone needs such a low cost access to it. Low cost to high sustain makes sense when it aligns with the mechanics of a particular class or scope, not for everyone. The class refreshes are also intended to address part of this by breaking up skills like Netch from being in the same skill tree as other, key, skills; forcing players who subclass to choose between sustain or output which makes giving everyone a major sustain passive even less viable.

Subclassing gave "everyone access to practically everything", which is what made PvP even worse. Doing more of that same logic by giving everyone a passive that's equivalent to CoE isn't going to make PvP combat better or more balanced or to even be more competitive.

In any competition the answer to a coordinated group is another coordinated group. It's unrealistic to try and tweak skill & combat mechanics to try and deliver the balance that a proper group / match making system is supposed to.

NxJoeyD · July 24

Lucasl402 wrote: »

ESO PvP struggles because ZOS doesn't make any noteworthy efforts to improve it. Vengeance doesn't count because it's not really PvP and it's not an effort to improve GH PvP.

True. The Devs themselves recently mentioned that when it comes to the concepts of balance within PvP that it was something that they'd never really given as much perspective or effort into.

Most combat and skills balancing revolved around PvE and parsing results, which, we all know isn't as relevant in PvP so it's no wonder that things like Subclassing got released and that PvP has been a nightmare. When the combat team is looking at all combat through a single perspective it's going to cause chaos.

They're, seemingly, working to change that but given how the Devs have chosen to drop the class refreshes one at a time rather than all at once there's going to be an inevitable imbalance, it's unavoidable the way they're doing it.

Wuuffyy · July 25

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

No, I didn't miss the memo. I'm aware players can achieve high sustain but, generally, there's a greater resource allocation to do so. Whether we're talking gear sets or skill slots, those are all active allocation of available resources in a build, whereas CoE is purely a passive; That's a very big deal. Receiving that high of a level of sustain without having to dedicate pieces of gear, pots, or a skill slot opens up build potential quite a bit.

The reason that, IMO, it makes sense on Sorc is because their IN-CLASS damage kit is mechanically weaker than most of the field. This doesn't include world & weapon skills since one wouldn't consider those when building class-specific attributes.

When it comes to other pure-classes being more viable in both PvE and PvP, I do agree, that most of the Mastery Passives do not deliver on that. Myself and others said this on the PTS threads; we knew that not all of the passives were going to deliver the needed power, especially in PvP ... but ... giving everyone strong passive resource sustain doesn't make sense because not all classes execute their functions (mechanically) the same way; this is why each classes Mastery passives focus on something different.

When it comes to Sorcs one big thing people never like to admit is that, as a class, they're utility heavy. They're good for pressure but not for the immediate & instant burst or cleave that the current state of PvP demands. Experienced players are all very much aware of how to counter Sorc pressure and it's easy to do because of the longer time-frame needed for their class skills to do anything. That extra time is what gives opponents the ability to easily counter. This is why the lions share of Sorcs go Stam and slot skills from world & weapon skill trees because those skills deliver the insta-cast, immediate high scale burst that's needed for PvP. The same goes for the Mag Sorcs, slotting skills like Wield Soul & Crushing Shock by default since the in-class kit can't deliver insta-burst.

This is why a strong, passive, sustain makes sense on a Sorc, because it reinforces their ability to maintain that pressure over time with their class kit, whereas everyone else is using their class kits to stack instances of heavy insta-burst for quicker kills.

Another difference though, is that Sorcs pay a W/S penalty for slotting outside of the class to get access to those heavier burst mechanics that most other classes already have. So while I can understand the high sustain passive on Sorc, it doesn't make sense on other classes, save maybe for Templar. Other classes that have in-class access to mechanics have to dedicate active resources to achieve higher sustain and that goes to balance.

Mastery passives need to align with classes. Giving everyone the same thing is precisely what subclassing did and that's what broke PvP worse than it's ever been. Strong passive sustain on a Sorc is one thing, but passive sustain that strong on, say, a NB is something completely different. It doesn't necessarily bring everyone more in line to do that.

Fully disagree. You wish for this game to be stuck, unable to move forward.

You completely disregard that ‘infinite sustain’ has been possible in the highest forums of content already for PvP (dueling good players, ball groups, full-on zergs). The solution to this (for better or worse) has always been burst (onslaught, corro, AoE bomb with VD, etc.). This is simply allowing those that aren’t in a tightly knit ball group and/or on non-reworked class to better compete.

This isn’t an awful direction and there is still plenty of room to make mistakes even in this type of combat setting. I love mentioning the ‘Morrowind sustain nerfs’ having drove a lot of the player base away… because it did. Sustain looked very similar to perma core-of-flame-up prior and a hefty majority of players obviously didn’t have an issue with it, especially since removing this caused such a catastrophic loss in players.

High sustain has been possible, yes, and I acknowledge that if you read what I wrote .. but .. that sustain comes with a higher build cost, it's not as cheap as a single passive.

Being able to achieve high sustain and being able to achieve high sustain from a singular passive are not the same thing. One requires a higher build cost than the other; that higher build cost takes away from build potentials elsewhere, and that's the point.

The current game state isn't Morrowind. I want the game to move forward but I want it to move forward in a more balanced way. This means that I'm looking at thigs how they are now, not how they were. Subclassing changed nearly everything pertaining to combat logic & balance.

I'm trying to get away from pouring more fuel on the same fire that's been eroding PvP. Not everyone needs "cheap" high sustain. If a players build needs to focus more on sustain there are ways they can do that but not everyone needs such a low cost access to it. Low cost to high sustain makes sense when it aligns with the mechanics of a particular class or scope, not for everyone. The class refreshes are also intended to address part of this by breaking up skills like Netch from being in the same skill tree as other, key, skills; forcing players who subclass to choose between sustain or output which makes giving everyone a major sustain passive even less viable.

Subclassing gave "everyone access to practically everything", which is what made PvP even worse. Doing more of that same logic by giving everyone a passive that's equivalent to CoE isn't going to make PvP combat better or more balanced or to even be more competitive.

In any competition the answer to a coordinated group is another coordinated group. It's unrealistic to try and tweak skill & combat mechanics to try and deliver the balance that a proper group / match making system is supposed to.

You have been able to ‘cheese’ sustain and damage for the longest; you have been able to run a 5/5/2/1/1 (mythic and monster) for a while.

Sets like Essence Thief and Roska have allowed for low-cost/ high-sustain (or in essence thief’s case, basically no cost) with good damage for a long time; this coupled with health/resource/recovery and/or skills like dark deal for resources or incap/onslaught for damage are major examples of ‘breaking the mold’; these concepts have been the backbone of “x’ing”, I.E. prime efficiency, this entire time.

Let’s also not pretend like having a single healer (which is typically the tankiest person in a group) doesn’t allow multiple “DDs” to spec far more into damage than they would normally with little to no risk; this let alone a ball group with multiple buff sets and multiple healers.

///

The fuel was already lit with subclassing. DK and werewolf are intentionally where they are at to meet subclassing.

Pure class DK, for example, is missing almost nothing (where as you stated there is some seedy attempt to break things apart; as if that remotely affects the 100s to 1000s of subclassed DKs right now to nearly no negative effect).

It’s time for them continue on the path and bring other classes up to this level. The time to undo this was before releasing subclassing- that failed. The time to stop pure class from being competitive was prior to DK release- that failed. We had a surge of players come in on the same season zero patch as DK and we will likely see the same for Warden. The players (not the minority and dissenting voices) have spoken in regards to what they enjoy most…

…nerfs on principle and/or accessibility are not that.

IZZEFlameLash · July 25

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

No, I didn't miss the memo. I'm aware players can achieve high sustain but, generally, there's a greater resource allocation to do so. Whether we're talking gear sets or skill slots, those are all active allocation of available resources in a build, whereas CoE is purely a passive; That's a very big deal. Receiving that high of a level of sustain without having to dedicate pieces of gear, pots, or a skill slot opens up build potential quite a bit.

The reason that, IMO, it makes sense on Sorc is because their IN-CLASS damage kit is mechanically weaker than most of the field. This doesn't include world & weapon skills since one wouldn't consider those when building class-specific attributes.

When it comes to other pure-classes being more viable in both PvE and PvP, I do agree, that most of the Mastery Passives do not deliver on that. Myself and others said this on the PTS threads; we knew that not all of the passives were going to deliver the needed power, especially in PvP ... but ... giving everyone strong passive resource sustain doesn't make sense because not all classes execute their functions (mechanically) the same way; this is why each classes Mastery passives focus on something different.

When it comes to Sorcs one big thing people never like to admit is that, as a class, they're utility heavy. They're good for pressure but not for the immediate & instant burst or cleave that the current state of PvP demands. Experienced players are all very much aware of how to counter Sorc pressure and it's easy to do because of the longer time-frame needed for their class skills to do anything. That extra time is what gives opponents the ability to easily counter. This is why the lions share of Sorcs go Stam and slot skills from world & weapon skill trees because those skills deliver the insta-cast, immediate high scale burst that's needed for PvP. The same goes for the Mag Sorcs, slotting skills like Wield Soul & Crushing Shock by default since the in-class kit can't deliver insta-burst.

This is why a strong, passive, sustain makes sense on a Sorc, because it reinforces their ability to maintain that pressure over time with their class kit, whereas everyone else is using their class kits to stack instances of heavy insta-burst for quicker kills.

Another difference though, is that Sorcs pay a W/S penalty for slotting outside of the class to get access to those heavier burst mechanics that most other classes already have. So while I can understand the high sustain passive on Sorc, it doesn't make sense on other classes, save maybe for Templar. Other classes that have in-class access to mechanics have to dedicate active resources to achieve higher sustain and that goes to balance.

Mastery passives need to align with classes. Giving everyone the same thing is precisely what subclassing did and that's what broke PvP worse than it's ever been. Strong passive sustain on a Sorc is one thing, but passive sustain that strong on, say, a NB is something completely different. It doesn't necessarily bring everyone more in line to do that.

Fully disagree. You wish for this game to be stuck, unable to move forward.

You completely disregard that ‘infinite sustain’ has been possible in the highest forums of content already for PvP (dueling good players, ball groups, full-on zergs). The solution to this (for better or worse) has always been burst (onslaught, corro, AoE bomb with VD, etc.). This is simply allowing those that aren’t in a tightly knit ball group and/or on non-reworked class to better compete.

This isn’t an awful direction and there is still plenty of room to make mistakes even in this type of combat setting. I love mentioning the ‘Morrowind sustain nerfs’ having drove a lot of the player base away… because it did. Sustain looked very similar to perma core-of-flame-up prior and a hefty majority of players obviously didn’t have an issue with it, especially since removing this caused such a catastrophic loss in players.

High sustain has been possible, yes, and I acknowledge that if you read what I wrote .. but .. that sustain comes with a higher build cost, it's not as cheap as a single passive.

Being able to achieve high sustain and being able to achieve high sustain from a singular passive are not the same thing. One requires a higher build cost than the other; that higher build cost takes away from build potentials elsewhere, and that's the point.

The current game state isn't Morrowind. I want the game to move forward but I want it to move forward in a more balanced way. This means that I'm looking at thigs how they are now, not how they were. Subclassing changed nearly everything pertaining to combat logic & balance.

I'm trying to get away from pouring more fuel on the same fire that's been eroding PvP. Not everyone needs "cheap" high sustain. If a players build needs to focus more on sustain there are ways they can do that but not everyone needs such a low cost access to it. Low cost to high sustain makes sense when it aligns with the mechanics of a particular class or scope, not for everyone. The class refreshes are also intended to address part of this by breaking up skills like Netch from being in the same skill tree as other, key, skills; forcing players who subclass to choose between sustain or output which makes giving everyone a major sustain passive even less viable.

Subclassing gave "everyone access to practically everything", which is what made PvP even worse. Doing more of that same logic by giving everyone a passive that's equivalent to CoE isn't going to make PvP combat better or more balanced or to even be more competitive.

In any competition the answer to a coordinated group is another coordinated group. It's unrealistic to try and tweak skill & combat mechanics to try and deliver the balance that a proper group / match making system is supposed to.

You have been able to ‘cheese’ sustain and damage for the longest; you have been able to run a 5/5/2/1/1 (mythic and monster) for a while.

Sets like Essence Thief and Roska have allowed for low-cost/ high-sustain (or in essence thief’s case, basically no cost) with good damage for a long time; this coupled with health/resource/recovery and/or skills like dark deal for resources or incap/onslaught for damage are major examples of ‘breaking the mold’; these concepts have been the backbone of “x’ing”, I.E. prime efficiency, this entire time.

Let’s also not pretend like having a single healer (which is typically the tankiest person in a group) doesn’t allow multiple “DDs” to spec far more into damage than they would normally with little to no risk; this let alone a ball group with multiple buff sets and multiple healers.

///

The fuel was already lit with subclassing. DK and werewolf are intentionally where they are at to meet subclassing.

Pure class DK, for example, is missing almost nothing (where as you stated there is some seedy attempt to break things apart; as if that remotely affects the 100s to 1000s of subclassed DKs right now to nearly no negative effect).

It’s time for them continue on the path and bring other classes up to this level. The time to undo this was before releasing subclassing- that failed. The time to stop pure class from being competitive was prior to DK release- that failed. We had a surge of players come in on the same season zero patch as DK and we will likely see the same for Warden. The players (not the minority and dissenting voices) have spoken in regards to what they enjoy most…

…nerfs on principle and/or accessibility are not that.

Fully agree.

Ironically, with less sustain mini game, I see people actually dying to stuffs than back in the days where everyone and their grannies ran Wretched Vitality or Essence Thief.

NxJoeyD · July 25

Wuuffyy wrote: »

You have been able to ‘cheese’ sustain and damage for the longest; you have been able to run a 5/5/2/1/1 (mythic and monster) for a while.

Sets like Essence Thief and Roska have allowed for low-cost/ high-sustain (or in essence thief’s case, basically no cost) with good damage for a long time; this coupled with health/resource/recovery and/or skills like dark deal for resources or incap/onslaught for damage are major examples of ‘breaking the mold’; these concepts have been the backbone of “x’ing”, I.E. prime efficiency, this entire time.

Sets aren't a low cost access to sustain, comparatively, versus a singular passive. Slotting 5 pieces of gear isn't the same as a single passive. When a player has to allocate 5 pieces of gear towards anything that's a significant commitment. Slotting 5 pieces of gear to get strong sustain has an opportunity cost that getting high sustain from a single passive does not.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

The fuel was already lit with subclassing. DK and werewolf are intentionally where they are at to meet subclassing.

The issue persisted long before subclassing but subclassing made it much worse, yes; and I've said this a million times. The same goes for DK and WW, I haven't said anything about nerfing them. The only concern I've had with WW was their access to Mastery Passives since nobody on PTS really discussed those impacts at all I'm pretty sure WW wasn't built or balanced with access to those Passives in mind. I also said that if WW lost access to Mastery Passives that they should have their own set of Mastery Passives or some equivalent.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Pure class DK, for example, is missing almost nothing (where as you stated there is some seedy attempt to break things apart; as if that remotely affects the 100s to 1000s of subclassed DKs right now to nearly no negative effect).

It’s time for them continue on the path and bring other classes up to this level. The time to undo this was before releasing subclassing- that failed. The time to stop pure class from being competitive was prior to DK release- that failed. We had a surge of players come in on the same season zero patch as DK and we will likely see the same for Warden. The players (not the minority and dissenting voices) have spoken in regards to what they enjoy most…

…nerfs on principle and/or accessibility are not that.

Who said anything about nerfs? I never called for a nerf. All I said is that it would be a bad idea to give every class a Mastery Passive that functions like CoE and delivers high sustain for low opportunity cost.

I agree other classes need to be brought up to the same level as DKs, WW, & Subclassed builds, but blanket giving every class the same mechanic when not all classes behave in the same way, mechanically, isn't the way to to do that.

That's the whole point of each class receiving their own refresh. Otherwise, the Devs could have just dropped blanket Passives for all pure-classes to slot and called it a day. But that wouldn't have delivered on what each class needs, specifically, to achieve that power elevation.

Vondreas · July 25

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The whole idea behind the class refreshes are to bring each, independent, class up in power to be in-line with what the highest tier subclassed builds have.

This is smart but it's taking too long.

NxJoeyD · July 25

Vondreas wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The whole idea behind the class refreshes are to bring each, independent, class up in power to be in-line with what the highest tier subclassed builds have.

This is smart but it's taking too long.

Hey, I don't disagree. I've said many time that, IMO, they should have released all of the class refreshes at once; this way the game wouldn't be in a state of big imbalance for a year and a half to 2 years.

They gave us Mastery Passives and in their statements the Devs claimed that these were supposed to be "hold over" elements to bring pure-class builds (somewhat) up in power while we wait but many of us on PTS told them this wouldn't work ... For starters, if that were true then why did DK get Mastery Passives? If the point of the Passives was to address everyone who hadn't had their refresh then why give them to the class that has had theirs? .. Even though DKs, technically, don't need to subclass many still do. Their skill kit is so strong they don't particularly need those Masteries, plus, a DK + Templar can better proc Power Lash than a pure-DK can so if one is building for maximum spam then they're likely going to subclass anyway. Which means that, in reality, the Mastery Passives semi-backfired in the case of DK, rather than making them stronger as a pure-class they can edge out even more power in a subclassed state, when properly built; and that goes to mechanics, not tooltips.

No amount of Mastery Passives is going to make up for mechanics. People can talk about things like "infinite sustain" and "heavy burst" and those are all very real things but what people don't tend to think about when we talk about PvP, especially after subclassing; is that it isn't so much about a particular class so much as it's about which cherry-picked skills mechanically perform better than the average.

When we look at the builds at the higher end of experience and then look at the skills being slotted we see a consistency. A lot of DK, a lot of NB, and a lot of Warden with some Templar mixed in. ... Other skills get used, of course, but the frequency starts to drop off fast after that. We see a lot of the same skills on repeat, regardless of base class. And it's no wonder why, everyone wants what works the best and mechanically those cherry-picked skills stand out because they either scale high instant-burst, deliver on strong passive benefits, or execute their function exceptionally quickly (or any combination there-of).

So unless the Devs are going to walk back the last two updates and re-drop subclassing and the class refreshes all at once (they're not going to do this) then we're stuck in a game-state of imbalance. And especially with a lack of any real match making modes like BGs are dog water. At least in Cryo or the IC a group (even a small one) can try and coordinate and have a better chance but even then ... subclassing threw combat into chaos.

Alchimiste1 · July 25

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Wuuffyy · July 25

@NxJoeyD - I won’t lie to you, you wish to talk in the same circles as many others before you so I’m not spending the time formatting my response for your last reply. So here it is, incredibly unformatted:

1) you can’t tell me the following-

Running onslaught without stacking pen doesn’t provide immense damage with little to no sacrifice

Running Essence Thief and collecting an orb for 2 lines of stam, a line of wep and spell damage, the equivalent of 800 or so stam recov, and a unique 10% damage increase involves some significant trade-off

Running incap with bow hasn’t always netted you ridiculous damage thanks to a 20% increase to damage and one skill (bow) alone that tooltips for more than many ‘burst’ ults do up front

Running a 5/5/2/1/1 requires some great deal of sacrifice and running Roska’s for ‘free’ sustain or Balorgh’s ult-save for ‘free damage’ over one of the MANY gimmicky monsters set options you’d use otherwise is overbearingly detrimental

That running Monomyth for your MAJOR Force, minor berserk front bar and MAJOR protection and minor vitality backbar don’t allow you immense power to place elsewhere

That running food that gives you (ballparking) 3300 health, 3100 stam, 340 recov is somehow an insane trade-off (especially prior where being 2 shot as a competent player was far less common; referring to health lost especially) versus Bewitched for just 1100-1300 of each ‘main’ resource.

*quick reminder that having sustain on a PvP build is NOT uncommon, however you may get that (and ALSO still have damage with that sustain)

2) if you believe there was absolutely no consideration for masteries before werewolf came out IN THE SAME PATCH, you’re absolutely incorrect. They play tested these and even cited ones such as necro having been a ‘war crime’ for PvP. Many of the masteries are overhyped or overstated by players, especially in a grand comparison with what a reworked class/spec is now providing.

Werewolf AoE pure DPS (melee cleave, no shield for beam spam) is around 140k top-end and near-pure ST DPS tops out around 185k with a severe lack of versatility. This is being done with the BEST masteries, it only goes downhill from here. I’m not saying that it’s impossible for certain masteries to stand out in PvP, but I’m saying that the DPS coming in a max damage setting isn’t exorbitant by any means and seems appropriate to me from a gameplay balance perspective. For the record, I’ve been told (and have seen) that necro is currently capable of 220k with all a fair amount of AoE DPS in that.

With that being said, given the choice- I personally could handle having ‘werewolf masteries’ itself but that unfortunately forces me to only subclass… again (with little to no thematic effects from my ‘class’… and that feels bad). They would also need to be strong in their own right to make up for losses, based on where the numbers are now and to not relegate werewolf immediately back to ‘meme spec’.

3) Class masteries are a bandaid. They were stated (paraphrasing) to be such and they logically have to perform in that role. Obviously a 30% increase for existing (such as Arcanist) isn’t a ‘healthy’ way to gain damage. You’d optimally at least want the skills themselves to be supplying around the same amount when pressed in coordination with each other. With that being said, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You logically believe ‘everything is fine’ and we can wait for the changes, class masteries needs buffs on many classes to better compete (as this is the bandaid/stop gap to bridge some of the differences) or you are unwilling to wait and want multiple aspects on the reworked level nerfed so you don’t have to wait for ‘your class’ to be more competitive.

If DK and wolf (and sorc) are enabling a high-sustain playstyle (I.E. the ‘reworked’ kit) yet your argument is that you don’t want other classes to have a similar passive via class masteries- you are essentially wishing for the benchmark to be nerfed so you can better compete based on the current setting (with reworked classes and ‘bandaid’, non-reworked classes)

Luneca · July 25

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

You did, but that's precisely why it won't happen. The imbalance in clases mean that reworks can be considered content now.

Wuuffyy · July 25

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Please don’t listen to requests for generic and blanket changes. Find a way to either keep pace or expedite class reworks. Don’t remove power for the sake of complaints when we already have a vision and a set power budget for each class.

You’re ’robbing from Peter to give to Paul’ in this scenario, you’re trading happiness now for hesitation and subsequent watered down reworks later. The ideas are good, the expediency is mediocre if any slower than the original 3 months per rework.

Alchimiste1 · July 25

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Please don’t listen to requests for generic and blanket changes. Find a way to either keep pace or expedite class reworks. Don’t remove power for the sake of complaints when we already have a vision and a set power budget for each class.

You’re ’robbing from Peter to give to Paul’ in this scenario, you’re trading happiness now for hesitation and subsequent watered down reworks later. The ideas are good, the expediency is mediocre if any slower than the original 3 months per rework.

What generic request ? These are my own thoughts I came up with and have told friends long ago in discord calls. If they seem generic it’s probably because people good at the game came to the same conclusion.

The class masteries were meant as a blanket buff but they seemed to have mostly missed the mark. The only things people are playing are DK/WW and some sorc. If they want people to play other classes then they have to bridge the power scale. I firmly believe that buffing everything to high hell has been a detriment to the state of the game. Constantly people complained and said just buff everything instead or nerfing thing ( which deserved to be nerfed) and it turned into this mess of a game. And for that reason I believe that there is no reason for reworked class to have access to class masteries as they should be used as a blanket buff for old underperforming ones.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · July 25

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Without the Class Mastery, all of our characters are inferior, just like they have been for over a year before this happened. It can be fixed tomorrow - remove Subclass. People are already completely fed up with the fact that many of the Class Passives are not good enough. If you dont think thats true, you'd better start running everything with your Templar. And the refreshes are years away. With the layoffs probably longer now.

If you love Subclassing that much, you can still play that way. The rest of us are getting our characters back we have had for over 10 years and purchased the game to play. In all content

BigPlays420 · July 26

The Vengeance campaign, and especially the mandatory Gray Host shutdowns that began with these tests last year, has become the single biggest reason the Cyrodiil PvP community continues to shrink. Every time Gray Host is sidelined for another Vengeance test, more of the loyal PvP audience that actually logs in week after week walks away. You can only take away the game mode people pay for and consistently support so many times before they stop logging in altogether.

ItsNotLiving · July 26

Why would I play PvP when 2 classes and werewolf don’t need to engage with the most important mechanic in the game (sustain) and get to freely cast whatever they want at maximum damage while everyone else has to build for regen? Blood Magic class mastery needs to be deleted from the game along with the DK inhale and werewolf howl sustain.

Alchimiste1 · July 26

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Without the Class Mastery, all of our characters are inferior, just like they have been for over a year before this happened. It can be fixed tomorrow - remove Subclass. People are already completely fed up with the fact that many of the Class Passives are not good enough. If you dont think thats true, you'd better start running everything with your Templar. And the refreshes are years away. With the layoffs probably longer now.

If you love Subclassing that much, you can still play that way. The rest of us are getting our characters back we have had for over 10 years and purchased the game to play. In all content

what are you talking about? I said remove class masteries from REWORKED classes. I'm saying the class masteries can stay UNTIL a class gets reworked like dk then it shouldn't be part of the kit. That will make it so only classes that haven't been reworked can have that extra boost until its their turn.

the only mastery that should be toned down a bit is the Sorc one that give unlimited sustain.

Luneca · July 26

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Class masteries should be removed from DK/WW and any future reworked classes. Sustain from heart of flame should be nerfed. Sustain from sorc class mastery should also be toned down a bit. OFFENSIVE class masteries for Arcanist,necromancer,Templar and nb should be buffed to an appropriate degree.

You’re welcome zos, I just made the current meta much better

Without the Class Mastery, all of our characters are inferior, just like they have been for over a year before this happened. It can be fixed tomorrow - remove Subclass. People are already completely fed up with the fact that many of the Class Passives are not good enough. If you dont think thats true, you'd better start running everything with your Templar. And the refreshes are years away. With the layoffs probably longer now.

If you love Subclassing that much, you can still play that way. The rest of us are getting our characters back we have had for over 10 years and purchased the game to play. In all content

It's funny how you are so opposed to subclassing and keep claiming that "people are fed up with it" -- not really. Don't like it, then don't use it and use the masteries.

Sure the masteries aren't balanced, but you know what? The entire game is not balanced. And that's because ZOS seems to have no interest in balancing the game and neither do the players.

You're here complaining about subclassing all the time, but do you play the classes that are most lackluster? Example being templar which you just mentioned. A class where it's hard to even fill up with the class' iconic skills because they all are terrible in this current patch and get outdone by generic skills.

Add subclassing and no templar should be running a pure build at all. So ZOS tossed on buffs, but they are all conditional that you keep the skill lines...which themselves are all trash.

Honor the Dead for example, is inferior to Healing Soul in every way. Now, that wouldn't be an issue if that kind of power were true for all heals in the same category. BUT it's not. It's true on Templar because there isn't any real buff or other advantage attached to the class.

Then we start going down the list and finding other examples, and we find out that templar itself has toom any skills inferior to generic ones. And this is not something new, it's been true for years becuase ZOS never properly balanced the class besides doing things like giving more healing (introduction of Living Dark), but never addressing the core problem with the class.

When ZOS handed out blanket nerfs in Update 35, that was the definite end of the class. Anyone still playing it in PvP especially literally just keeps hanging on to hope that it will get better, or wants a challenge. It could be that they don't know any better.

NxJoeyD · July 26

Wuuffyy wrote: »

@NxJoeyD - I won’t lie to you, you wish to talk in the same circles as many others before you so I’m not spending the time formatting my response for your last reply. So here it is, incredibly unformatted:

1) you can’t tell me the following-

Running onslaught without stacking pen doesn’t provide immense damage with little to no sacrifice

Running Essence Thief and collecting an orb for 2 lines of stam, a line of wep and spell damage, the equivalent of 800 or so stam recov, and a unique 10% damage increase involves some significant trade-off

Running incap with bow hasn’t always netted you ridiculous damage thanks to a 20% increase to damage and one skill (bow) alone that tooltips for more than many ‘burst’ ults do up front

Running a 5/5/2/1/1 requires some great deal of sacrifice and running Roska’s for ‘free’ sustain or Balorgh’s ult-save for ‘free damage’ over one of the MANY gimmicky monsters set options you’d use otherwise is overbearingly detrimental

That running Monomyth for your MAJOR Force, minor berserk front bar and MAJOR protection and minor vitality backbar don’t allow you immense power to place elsewhere

That running food that gives you (ballparking) 3300 health, 3100 stam, 340 recov is somehow an insane trade-off (especially prior where being 2 shot as a competent player was far less common; referring to health lost especially) versus Bewitched for just 1100-1300 of each ‘main’ resource.

*quick reminder that having sustain on a PvP build is NOT uncommon, however you may get that (and ALSO still have damage with that sustain)

I don't think you understand what I mean. When I say that slotting 5 pieces of gear is a significant build commitment I'm saying that when comparing the action of slotting 5 pieces of gear VERSUS being able to assign one single Passive ability to achieve the same thing.

Players have a finite number of gear spaces available. This means that the opportunity cost of getting your sustain from a single Passive ability is worth A LOT more than having to get that same sustain from slotting 5 pieces of gear, or one monster set, or a Mythic.

It's not that players haven't been able to achieve sustain in PvP, I never said that. What I'm saying is that you have to look at the opportunity costs that choices enable when talking about balance in a game. Your idea to give everyone access to the same mechanic for such a low opportunity cost can have large, unintended consequences in combat.

I never said that having sustain was uncommon or that it's a bad thing for players in PvP to have. I'm strictly speaking of the cost of the various methods of getting sustain.

If previously I had slotted Essence as part of my sustain strat but now I can, instead, slot CoE, that enables me to replace Essence with another 5 piece set which is a huge opportunity. That opportunity is a big deal in combat, even if confined to each of the pure-classes.

As for skills like Onslaught, they do have a possible sacrifice. If a player relies mostly on Onslaught for their strong burst / Pen then that means for the rest of their combat engagement, when Onslaught isn't active, their damage output is going to be sub-par; allowing their opponent to heal or otherwise mitigate the majority of their damage. Practically everyone in PvP has some degree of durability so the idea of slotting Onslaught without any noteworthy Pen is not something I'd expect any experienced player to do.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

2) if you believe there was absolutely no consideration for masteries before werewolf came out IN THE SAME PATCH, you’re absolutely incorrect. They play tested these and even cited ones such as necro having been a ‘war crime’ for PvP. Many of the masteries are overhyped or overstated by players, especially in a grand comparison with what a reworked class/spec is now providing.

Werewolf AoE pure DPS (melee cleave, no shield for beam spam) is around 140k top-end and near-pure ST DPS tops out around 185k with a severe lack of versatility. This is being done with the BEST masteries, it only goes downhill from here. I’m not saying that it’s impossible for certain masteries to stand out in PvP, but I’m saying that the DPS coming in a max damage setting isn’t exorbitant by any means and seems appropriate to me from a gameplay balance perspective. For the record, I’ve been told (and have seen) that necro is currently capable of 220k with all a fair amount of AoE DPS in that.

With that being said, given the choice- I personally could handle having ‘werewolf masteries’ itself but that unfortunately forces me to only subclass… again (with little to no thematic effects from my ‘class’… and that feels bad). They would also need to be strong in their own right to make up for losses, based on where the numbers are now and to not relegate werewolf immediately back to ‘meme spec’.

Logically, if WW was developed and considered with each Mastery in mind then it stands to reason that some aspects of WW skills would align with at least two passives from every class. One of the top choices for Class Passives among WW are Warden and it's no wonder why. If we look at the Mastery passives across all classes we can see where some very strongly synergize with WW whilst others do not. Are you telling us all that the Devs only intended for some of the classes to be solid WW players? Otherwise, why don't all of the Class Mastery passives have some sense of synergy with WW?

Both WW & the Mastery Passives dropped with the same update but that doesn't mean that the scope of WW was considered with each of the classes mastery passives in mind. It seems clear that it wasn't or at least it wasn't fully, otherwise we'd see a broader selection of WW amongst the classes but instead we see Warden, DK, followed by Sorc and then practically no other class.

As for WW, I know you may feel as though WW has severe downsides or lack of versatility but the fact that WW is achieving results in PvP up with DK really refutes that. We don't see players, en-mass, on these forums complaining that WW have a "severe lack of versatility".

As for parses, those are semi-useful for PvE but mean nothing for PvP, hence why experienced players don't cite parses for PvP related balancing. PvE builds that enable 170k - 200k dummy parses are wholly unrealistic for PvP. As for PvE I've seen plenty of examples of 200K WW parses so I don't know where you're getting your numbers from. There's a lot of examples of WW pulling higher numbers than 140k and even 185k.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

3) Class masteries are a bandaid. They were stated (paraphrasing) to be such and they logically have to perform in that role. Obviously a 30% increase for existing (such as Arcanist) isn’t a ‘healthy’ way to gain damage. You’d optimally at least want the skills themselves to be supplying around the same amount when pressed in coordination with each other. With that being said, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

You logically believe ‘everything is fine’ and we can wait for the changes, class masteries needs buffs on many classes to better compete (as this is the bandaid/stop gap to bridge some of the differences) or you are unwilling to wait and want multiple aspects on the reworked level nerfed so you don’t have to wait for ‘your class’ to be more competitive.

If DK and wolf (and sorc) are enabling a high-sustain playstyle (I.E. the ‘reworked’ kit) yet your argument is that you don’t want other classes to have a similar passive via class masteries- you are essentially wishing for the benchmark to be nerfed so you can better compete based on the current setting (with reworked classes and ‘bandaid’, non-reworked classes)

I never said that everything was fine, in fact, I've said the opposite. But I also live in the real world and realize that regardless of what "should" happen I look more at what can "realistically" happen. Mastery Passives were a band aid, and I've been critical of Mastery Passives because they haven't lived up to the job they were designed to do; which I've not only said now but even before they were released as I tested on PTS, I knew they weren't going to live up and I'm not the only one, a lot of us knew.

Again, I never called for any nerfs so I don't know why you're putting false words in my mouth.

The issue with DK & WW aren't high sustain playstyles, the issue with DK and WW and their higher performance comes from a combination of mechanical versatility and extremely high damage output potential. In the case of Sorc, they are a high sustain playstyle, which differs from DK and WW because Sorc doesn't have anywhere near the damage output potential within their class skills that either DK or WW do.

DK's & WW use their skills and mechanics to make short work out of their opponents, applying extremely high busts or incredibly strong pressure to overwhelm their target. Sorcs, on the other hand, require time for their pressure to be effective which is difficult against subclassed builds or DK & WW that have durability and healing mechanics that mitigate the lions share of what damage Sorc-class skills can dish out.

Other pure-classes all have spammable bursts that have high scaling potential so when it comes to applying pressure they may not be DK levels of burst but they have power-potential so for those classes it's not about sustain it's about raw power to compete with the likes of DK & WW.

ADarklore · July 26

Even though I don't PvP, I always get a chuckle out of these posts. "Well I used to be able to beat xyz, and I can't anymore, so nerf them."

Every time a class gets a buff, it's the same ole thing... people come to the forums to complain, and 9x out of 10 it's because their class doesn't have it as easy anymore against a recently buffed class. But the reality is, welcome to an MMO... where META constantly shifts and sometimes you find your main on the losing end of the shift. Having played ESO for so many years, I've seen so many classes rise and fall, but yet, the forums and player reactions are always the same.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · July 26

BigPlays420 wrote: »

The Vengeance campaign, and especially the mandatory Gray Host shutdowns that began with these tests last year, has become the single biggest reason the Cyrodiil PvP community continues to shrink. Every time Gray Host is sidelined for another Vengeance test, more of the loyal PvP audience that actually logs in week after week walks away. You can only take away the game mode people pay for and consistently support so many times before they stop logging in altogether.

Fully agreed. Many of the balance issues being discussed in this thread are a direct consequence of the consistent neglect of traditional Gray Host PvP while resources are poured into Vengeance.

This all stems from the same underlying problem, a lack of attention to the core PvP playerbase. The community has been asking for meaningful balance changes to Gray Host for months, Dragonknights, werewolves, ball groups, and other long-standing issues, yet those concerns continue to be ignored while development time is overwhelmingly focused on Vengeance.

Whether you like Vengeance or not isn’t even the point anymore. The issue is that the game mode the established PvP community actually logs in to play has been left to stagnate while we’re repeatedly asked to beta test something else. That’s a terrible way to treat your most dedicated players.

ToddIngram · July 26

Usureki wrote: »

its not that complicated to create a dk and be 'good' at the game

So roll your DK and see how well you do in GH.

Turns out skill is still a major factor.

Mogli · July 27

DK players in ESO are now just the Ret Paladin or BM hunters of World of Warcraft.

aLi3nZ · July 27

ToddIngram wrote: »

Usureki wrote: »

its not that complicated to create a dk and be 'good' at the game

So roll your DK and see how well you do in GH.

Turns out skill is still a major factor.

seems pretty damn op with corrosive armour, oakensole for heroism and other buffs and power lashes. Honestly just kind of boring to play, just like warewolf though. Both OP currently.