NxJoeyD wrote: »

The DK class is significantly more powerful than what is in PvP and that was somewhat the point.

The whole idea behind the class refreshes are to bring each, independent, class up in power to be in-line with what the highest tier subclassed builds have.

Prior to the DK refresh the subclassed builds were hitting with this level of power and had access to all the utility as well.

Did ZOS ever explicitly say that? Because subclassed DK is still arguably more powerful than pure thanks to stacking damage instances. If that was their goal they've missed the mark from the start.

Subclassing needs to be removed for starters. It is still destroying the game.

There are a lot of people like me who have largely given up on what some call the traditional PvP (GH, IC, BG). With me, its the constant nerfs and calls for them from the same people. Until very recently, I was killing the DKs and Werewolves in PvP. With my Warden. I am a Warden Main. Which by the way was already unfairly targeted by the same crowd and restricted before the update. Thats the Bear and its Class Passive. Then nerfed even further and the only thing that allowed it to do so in GH removed, Shattered Path. Before I was a Warden, I was a DK main. And Im not anymore because it pretty much got nerfed every patch over the same ridiculous crowd. For the same ridiculous reasons. Just like they wont stop calling for it to be ruined a second time to this very day. And wont stop calling for the WW to be gutted.

I had previously completed everything in IC before U49, knowing the exits would be camped. What's more important, the people with Tel Var Greed having more Tel Var or more people for everyone to play with in IC and a higher overall and constant larger population? And rather than entertain this ridiculous update, people quit. Who can blame them. Look at the population now compared to before the update.

BG are supposed to be for everyone. Every new player, casual players, part time PvPer, Solo players, returning players, ect who go in there realize the only people left in it are the same ball groups that drove them out of there in the first place. They understand the damage is way too high, the gear is completely out of control, the buffs are off the chain and the atmosphere is completely toxic. As they get 1 shotted 60 times with a score of 0 to 500. If you run 60 BG in a row, anyone can see its the same people.

GH is the world's worst broken record playing the same old constant song, "Nerf this, nerf that". And its so beyond tiring, fatigue doesn't even begin to describe it. With the same attitude from an absolute minority - We dont like what's killing us, ruin it for everyone. Nerf them, just not me. Take away all the things that make our brand new characters fun and exciting to play. The game can't withstand 10 more years of this constant catering to this ever dwindling toxic population. People are fed up. After the last wrecking ball to my Warden, im fed up. I was one of the last people in all my Guilds to still play GH and BG. There is entirely too much damage, entirely too many procs, mythics, status effect. Their only answer is to keep calling for nerfs to tanks and healers, which is exactly the same thing as giving them more dps. Or even worse, to eliminate them entirely. Once this happens, people who only go to BG and GH as tanks and healers will quit too. Every time someone gets their character chopping blocked, more people quit.

I make all of the new players in my Guilds read the posts on this forum and the constant calls to have their characters ruined before they think about PvP. The result is, they wont do it. They won't even consider it.

Im cautiously optimistic that the Developers might have actually realized some of these things and are trying to stop this awful trend with Vengeance. What's the end result if this trend continues? This very small crowd gets what they want, playing alone together with their small crowd and an end of service date.

We need fair and balanced PvP. For everyone. The rules of combat need to be established, regulated and enforced by the Developers. Any other way and its the same old broken system I and many others have experienced for 11 years. As long as it's decided by the same people we are forced to play against, it will never be fair. Ball groupers should not be deciding the rules of PvP for anyone.

I care very deeply about Eso. It has been a part of my life for 11 years. Our Guilds have been a part of Eso for 11 years. And they are a shell of themselves now.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

TLDR; ‘I have my own opinion on balance but I’ll blame the long-since-declining PvP playerbase for the reason I disagree with balance (some classes reworked and some now) and I completely ignore the fact other reworks are coming that will bring other specs to par’.

‘Anyways, nerf everything because it isn’t my thing.’

Fun fact: the Morrowind sustain nerfs were actually the cause of the first mass exodus of (let’s just say PvP) players.

Hes right tho, the current balance made a lot of non DK mains move away since it gets frustrating knowing that one class is so much better than everything else.
And the other reworks are coming is not a smart take, imagine having to wait one year to play again the Templar you've always played because they can't change everything in one patch.

Pvp has never been balanced but it's never been like this. DK has literally everything, from unlimited sustain with 0 investment, damage, crit damage, tankyness, healing, burst, pressure... All built in his kit. All the passives are strong and the actives are so loaded, with every skill having 2/3/4 effects.
Honestly playing DK at the moment is such a carry that I stopped using it after like 10 years of almost exclusively playing it.

And DK is definitely Santinos thing, hes the kind of guy who pops corro in a 5v1, so he's definitely not calling for a nerf cause he got killed by a dk

Wuuffyy wrote: »

TLDR; ‘I have my own opinion on balance but I’ll blame the long-since-declining PvP playerbase for the reason I disagree with balance (some classes reworked and some now) and I completely ignore the fact other reworks are coming that will bring other specs to par’.

‘Anyways, nerf everything because it isn’t my thing.’

Fun fact: the Morrowind sustain nerfs were actually the cause of the first mass exodus of (let’s just say PvP) players.

The idea that it would be fine for most classes to be severly weaker than 1 or 2 reworked ones I found kinda wierd.
Major breach was removed from suprise attack years ago beacuse it was an overloaded skill, now we have whip doing so much damage that it puts even merciless resolve to shame. And that's on the class with literal strongest dots as well.
Their approach to reworking dk has been to just give them everything(utility wise)and a massive power boost.
Fine don't nerf dk, make templars backlash that takes 6 seconds to power up hit at least twice as hard for example.

I also want to add that the devs confirmed before that they wont do much balancing work until reworks are done. That's at least a year, probably 2 after the layoffs.
I don't think it would be a colossal effort to tweak numbers all around to make classes at least a bit more competitive, but no we needed entire new skill lines for the "for sure testing mode and not at all the new pvp" campaign.

And even beyond that, they have some classes where their masteries are nerfed or outright disabled in pvp cuz the devs thought they would be too strong while my ww has a 10k self heal attached to its spammable and my dk can two shot people from 40k hp.

But no your right let's just be patient and wait for reworks.

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My non-reworked, *pure class NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

Luneca wrote: »

If anyone wants to know why, just stop playing your META DK, WW, and sorcs and try out templar, nightblade, arcanist, and necro. Pure class by the way.

You'll find out in less than 5 minutes.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. I’ve tried every possible full NB setup, including my own secret build with full damage reduction on the front bar. It just can’t compete.

Btw @Ocelot9x, you’ve never talked to me, nor do you actually know me. Why do you assume I enjoy playing DK? I‘m a full NB still but the game is forcing me to play something I don‘t like. Even you are on a DK now.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

This week PvP is dying because nobody wants to play vengeance and ZOS took away GH. They said they wouldn't do this to us, but here we are.

It’s supposedly a ‘test’ to some degree but intent has really yet to be decided. With that being said, yes.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

Yeah, I mean, look how Sorc is taking off with their sustain issue more or less gone. And it is the class that won't be reworked for about a year or so in currently known schedule. Wouldn't be a bad idea really. I think this would at least plug the gap sufficiently.

Luneca wrote: »

If anyone wants to know why, just stop playing your META DK, WW, and sorcs and try out templar, nightblade, arcanist, and necro. Pure class by the way.

You'll find out in less than 5 minutes.

i play a nightblade and Arcanist everyday in BG.

The nightblade is average/worst of all my toons. But it still works just fine as a vampire pulse ganker with shadow cloak, draugerkin and winterborn.

But the Arcanist slaps. Spattering disjunction and winterborn subclassed dark magic and winters embraced. Still a super powerful build without shattered paths signet.

Including against DK’s and warewolves. They are often dead before they can even reach me.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Hot take: each pure class should have a CoE level sustain passive.

I know it’s cliche but that’s the main and center point change of the reworks, the ability to sustain and the hyper-amount of burst available in a class (referring mainly to DK on this part).

Most classes have decent burst already in their kit, and while not perfect, can also be combined with onslaught, contingency, etc therefore the only true bar of entry is sustain. My reworked NB has to slowly end his own existence just to get decent sustain barely matching dark deal spam (which includes a health heal)- I know the feeling.

This would be a horror show unless some other combat mechs were also re-worked, namely, Evasion.

There are already too many mechanics in PvP that are being over-utilized, giving high sustain across the board would make for terrible combat.

Non-Sorc players can achieve higher sustain now but have to allocate certain resources to do it, which makes sense. Part of the reason Sorc gets heavy sustain from CoE is that Sorc in-class burst is pretty poor. Only Templar is as bad, so instead Sorcs got higher sustain which plays into the Sorcs utility-heavy skill kit.

Since most every other class has in-class skills with better burst mechs it wouldn't make sense to give them high sustain without the allocation cost that's required now.

You may have missed the memo. DK, wolf, and sorc have this.

I have this (high sustain with no sustain sets) on my stam sorc with dark deal and tri-pots.

This would level the playing field. Also, I didn’t mean the exact same type of mastery passive (I.E, just resources on skill use) as they could easily give ‘thematic’ increases (around same or similar values over time) to each class.

I absolutely disagree with you in that every class shouldn’t have this right now. At a minimum, this benefits PvE tremendously and at a maximum makes other pure classes more viable in PvP.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future- onslaught/high pen and crit damage lined up in a burst are how you kill ‘above average’ (properly built, have an idea how to PvP)- ‘good’ players. This would remain the same conceptually.

No, I didn't miss the memo. I'm aware players can achieve high sustain but, generally, there's a greater resource allocation to do so. Whether we're talking gear sets or skill slots, those are all active allocation of available resources in a build, whereas CoE is purely a passive; That's a very big deal. Receiving that high of a level of sustain without having to dedicate pieces of gear, pots, or a skill slot opens up build potential quite a bit.

The reason that, IMO, it makes sense on Sorc is because their IN-CLASS damage kit is mechanically weaker than most of the field. This doesn't include world & weapon skills since one wouldn't consider those when building class-specific attributes.

When it comes to other pure-classes being more viable in both PvE and PvP, I do agree, that most of the Mastery Passives do not deliver on that. Myself and others said this on the PTS threads; we knew that not all of the passives were going to deliver the needed power, especially in PvP ... but ... giving everyone strong passive resource sustain doesn't make sense because not all classes execute their functions (mechanically) the same way; this is why each classes Mastery passives focus on something different.

When it comes to Sorcs one big thing people never like to admit is that, as a class, they're utility heavy. They're good for pressure but not for the immediate & instant burst or cleave that the current state of PvP demands. Experienced players are all very much aware of how to counter Sorc pressure and it's easy to do because of the longer time-frame needed for their class skills to do anything. That extra time is what gives opponents the ability to easily counter. This is why the lions share of Sorcs go Stam and slot skills from world & weapon skill trees because those skills deliver the insta-cast, immediate high scale burst that's needed for PvP. The same goes for the Mag Sorcs, slotting skills like Wield Soul & Crushing Shock by default since the in-class kit can't deliver insta-burst.

This is why a strong, passive, sustain makes sense on a Sorc, because it reinforces their ability to maintain that pressure over time with their class kit, whereas everyone else is using their class kits to stack instances of heavy insta-burst for quicker kills.

Another difference though, is that Sorcs pay a W/S penalty for slotting outside of the class to get access to those heavier burst mechanics that most other classes already have. So while I can understand the high sustain passive on Sorc, it doesn't make sense on other classes, save maybe for Templar. Other classes that have in-class access to mechanics have to dedicate active resources to achieve higher sustain and that goes to balance.

Mastery passives need to align with classes. Giving everyone the same thing is precisely what subclassing did and that's what broke PvP worse than it's ever been. Strong passive sustain on a Sorc is one thing, but passive sustain that strong on, say, a NB is something completely different. It doesn't necessarily bring everyone more in line to do that.

Tell you what I'll trade my power of the light and dark flare on my templar for your worst than most curse and frags.
Heck I'll trade from my Arca my 1 inch by 1 inch supposed burst tentacle for curse.

I'm not sure that PvP is dying, but it's at its most inaccessible and highest skill-and-build-gap in years. The difference between the ceiling and floor make it unenjoyable and unrewarding even for players who are trying to get better—you can't compete unless you somehow figure out the gear and abilities that are optimal enough to mathematically compete. I've never been able to find highly competitive builds myself, but lately it's been even more punishing, because either you make it over that threshold or not.

In Vengeance, with my same proc set build from Gray Host, I can make impacts in fights and even solo kill skilled players. I don't see ball groups, and 1vXers and gankers really have to earn it instead of 2-shotting people. PvP is skill-based, more responsive with slower time-to-kill, and accessible without needing a highly optimized build to make a difference.

Not that Vengeance doesn't have problems like class imbalance and more. It's also less deeply customizable and you get less of a power fantasy of being able to go 30 kills, 0 deaths. But that power comes at a cost for people who want to enjoy and learn PvP.

Cyrodiil used to be more like Vengeance, as far as having a more approachable competitive gap. I wish it could be more like that again. I could invite friends to Vengeance to improve at PvP, but not Gray Host. And battlegrounds are just 2 players dominating the entire 16-person match. At times it feels impossible to enjoy and learn.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I'm not sure that PvP is dying, but it's at its most inaccessible and highest skill-and-build-gap in years. The difference between the ceiling and floor make it unenjoyable and unrewarding even for players who are trying to get better—you can't compete unless you somehow figure out the gear and abilities that are optimal enough to mathematically compete. I've never been able to find highly competitive builds myself, but lately it's been even more punishing, because either you make it over that threshold or not.

In Vengeance, with my same proc set build from Gray Host, I can make impacts in fights and even solo kill skilled players. I don't see ball groups, and 1vXers and gankers really have to earn it instead of 2-shotting people. PvP is skill-based, more responsive with slower time-to-kill, and accessible without needing a highly optimized build to make a difference.

Not that Vengeance doesn't have problems like class imbalance and more. It's also less deeply customizable and you get less of a power fantasy of being able to go 30 kills, 0 deaths. But that power comes at a cost for people who want to enjoy and learn PvP.

Cyrodiil used to be more like Vengeance, as far as having a more approachable competitive gap. I wish it could be more like that again. I could invite friends to Vengeance to improve at PvP, but not Gray Host. And battlegrounds are just 2 players dominating the entire 16-person match. At times it feels impossible to enjoy and learn.

Excuse me, but are you seriously trying to say that when you aren’t able to kill a highly skilled player, it’s the developers’ job to make it impossible for you to make the wrong decisions?

You’re telling me that because you don’t know which buttons to press, which skills to use, or which sets to run—and because you refuse to actually experiment and find something that works for you—you’ve been complaining on these forums for years. And now you’re happy because you no longer have to think about decision-making or take multiple mechanics into consideration, and suddenly you can kill players who are objectively better than you.

You’re literally admitting that a better player lost because the game was simplified in your favor. Aren’t you even a little ashamed to say that?

So what exactly do you want? Half of the PvP community gone? Or at least the quarter of players who actually invest time and effort into improving instead of expecting the game to play itself?

THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF FEEDBACK THAT IS PUSHING PvP IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

To the developers: Please don’t confuse accessibility with removing skill expression. The solution is to help new players learn the game—not to remove the mechanics that long-time players have spent years mastering. ESO has one of the best combat systems of any MMO because of its depth, build diversity, and decision-making. If you keep flattening those systems every time people complain about losing, you’ll lose the players who invested thousands of hours mastering them.

I’ve met so many players who refuse to run an optimized build or put any effort into learning a proper rotation. They want everything to happen automatically as soon as their ultimate is ready. That’s not a balance problem—that’s a willingness-to-improve problem.

Developers listening to feedback like this is one of the reasons PvP is declining.

Kind regards. I hope you zerg me in Cyrodiil—I actually enjoy that. I love this game despite its balance issues. But please don’t split the player base because some people simply don’t want to improve. The answer isn’t lowering the skill ceiling; it’s helping more players climb toward it.

PvP dying is simple. The whole system is too complicated for most new players to get into at this point. So each time a PvP player decides to leave the game, they are not getting replaced.

The first Vengeance test, I had fun as I could actually get out there and PvP. When it was over, I tried to jump into Gray Host as I really liked the concept but being melted each time you encounter a geared up player took that away very quick. I have seen several people comment the same and then what you all call ball groups seems to be the hair pulling incident for the a lot of others.

its not that complicated to create a dk and be 'good' at the game