Nerf WW (PvP) Immediately.

Vondreas · July 22

Can't even damage these guys, I'm not playing a furry to be Meta.

dark_hunterxmg · July 22

The good news for you is that Werewolf isn't meta. It's just good.

Militan1404 · July 22

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The good news for you is that Werewolf isn't meta. It's just good.

Not meta? You cant set your foot in IC or Cyro with out seeing a WW. And bgs its like 2-3 WW in each bgs and the rest is DKs

CatalinaWineMixer2 · July 23

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Firstmep · July 23

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

No thanks. If something is this broken it needs to be reigned in.

IZZEFlameLash · July 23

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

This SPS nerf was more to do with the fact that people wrongfully associated pulse ganking's existence with SPS despite pulse ganking being a thing pretty much back when Psijic Imbue Weapon came out. They thought it'd kill pulse gankers if SPS got nerfed but pulse ganking is still alive and well. It just weeded out the badly built ones that frankly still couldn't kill very well even with SPS if the target knew how to block and heal and not under 30k health.

Firstmep · July 23

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

This SPS nerf was more to do with the fact that people wrongfully associated pulse ganking's existence with SPS despite pulse ganking being a thing pretty much back when Psijic Imbue Weapon came out. They thought it'd kill pulse gankers if SPS got nerfed but pulse ganking is still alive and well. It just weeded out the badly built ones that frankly still couldn't kill very well even with SPS if the target knew how to block and heal and not under 30k health.

Maybe on NA, on PC eu no one had any doubts about sps being more than broken without pulse ganking.
Heck we made builds for ele sus ganking and had regular brawler builds that got close to 50% more overall damage just by changing to sps from monomyth.

Silvains_Demon · July 23

Heh? Bud, WWs are not that bad. Hell, focus fire a bit with an actual team and they are not a problem. That is what happened to me in PVP, and I only saw one WW and that was me. I only got a few people when I didn't get focused on and there was only a small skirmish between players (2-3 each team, nothing larger). I got more kills being outside WW than in form.

If anything, I hope they deliver on the rework of Vampire and make one of those morphs into a Magicka DPS version of WW (give players a form reminiscent of a Vampire Lord, not a Vampire Knight, just between the size of Lyris Titanborn and the current Blood Scion form, but floating and with ranged Light/Heavy attacks).

Wuuffyy · July 23

I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

Contrary to popular belief, wolf doesn’t suddenly make a player uber-competent at the game, nothing but time in and willingness to experiment and learn will do this (and ergo one of many reasons that even those with high health can die).

Militan1404 · July 23

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

Contrary to popular belief, wolf doesn’t suddenly make a player uber-competent at the game, nothing but time in and willingness to experiment and learn will do this (and ergo one of many reasons that even those with high health can die).

What you trying to say it takes skill to play a WW? When i made mine i didnt even read what the skills did and still did 10 bgs + before i got my first death so dont try to convince us that it takes skill. Ww is crutches where players that did bad even on DKs last patch does good on WW now, and a one bar build should not preform as good as a two bar build, thats why oakensoul got nerfed years ago.

Wuuffyy · July 23

Militan1404 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

Contrary to popular belief, wolf doesn’t suddenly make a player uber-competent at the game, nothing but time in and willingness to experiment and learn will do this (and ergo one of many reasons that even those with high health can die).

What you trying to say it takes skill to play a WW? When i made mine i didnt even read what the skills did and still did 10 bgs + before i got my first death so dont try to convince us that it takes skill. Ww is crutches where players that did bad even on DKs last patch does good on WW now, and a one bar build should not preform as good as a two bar build, thats why oakensoul got nerfed years ago.

Are you trying to say there isn’t a different between a bad werewolf and a good werewolf?

Your logic makes zero sense. Multiple individuals with your mentality have stated because it is one-bar it “must be bad” or “should be a meme spec”. This is not proper balancing despite what you may believe.

Oakensoul was nerfed as it typically equated to large gains over a relatively similar two-bar build for a given class; it was overbearing for werewolf as it provided buffs we were completely locked out of it otherwise when we already took the ‘consequence’ (only one bar) for the mythic as part of the kit.

Werewolf is a ‘playstyle’ with many disadvantages. It is a lockout system where you receive advantages and disadvantages as a tradeoff for building for and playing as a werewolf. The tools that we have typically coincide with a sizable amount of tools we cannot reasonably access, that the average non-wolf build (subclass or reworked class) can. Here is a running list of what we don’t have that I made for reference:

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)
-no in-kit immobilize
-no snare
-no snare removal/immunity
-no purge
-no major expedition in-kit (have to give up a set/dmg/something for a mediocre version of it)
-no actual hot (definitely not like vigor)
-no shields in-kit
-limited mag sustain (out of rampage)
-no minor resolve
-minor protection dependent on morph (not the damage morph)
-major evasion dependent on morph (not the damage morph)
-minor maim dependent on morph (not the damage morph)
list certainly goes on…

///

Cannot access a monster and a mythic (or weapon sets by extension) like everyone else. Balorgh doesn’t really function for us (which is a staple for viable burst damage in many PvP builds right now)

Monomyth which could at least be viable for damage basically doesn’t function for us damage wise (it defaults to back bar buffs)

dark_hunterxmg · July 23

Militan1404 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

Contrary to popular belief, wolf doesn’t suddenly make a player uber-competent at the game, nothing but time in and willingness to experiment and learn will do this (and ergo one of many reasons that even those with high health can die).

What you trying to say it takes skill to play a WW? When i made mine i didnt even read what the skills did and still did 10 bgs + before i got my first death so dont try to convince us that it takes skill. Ww is crutches where players that did bad even on DKs last patch does good on WW now, and a one bar build should not preform as good as a two bar build, thats why oakensoul got nerfed years ago.

It takes skill to play it well against good players. Doing well in a BG doesn't really mean much. Sounds like MMR was on your side. You didn't just throw something together and smash good players with it.

El_Borracho · July 23

After years of being irrelevant, Werewolf has been viable for about 20 minutes and people already want to nerf it. Sigh.

Dying is a part of PVP. Deal with it. And spare me the "you don't know what its like, man" replies. I do. Its nice to have options on how to play in Cyrodiil again.

Wuuffyy · July 23

El_Borracho wrote: »

After years of being irrelevant, Werewolf has been viable for about 20 minutes and people already want to nerf it. Sigh.

Dying is a part of PVP. Deal with it. And spare me the "you don't know what its like, man" replies. I do. Its nice to have options on how to play in Cyrodiil again.

They throw around hard-stop phrases to try and sway opinion like ‘nerf immediately’, ‘most broken thing ever’, and ‘one bar build shouldn’t be good’ simply because they are unable, unwilling, or choose to be ignorant against building for the reworked ‘specs’ (running no sustain and no resistance of any kind is NOT the wave).

I ensure you, it’s far more obnoxious than whatever you could possibly encounter in-game simply knowing that werewolf has been non-existent for a half a decade to a whole decade, on and off; it’s in their face and now their response is to simply ‘request removal’.

*by the way, DK (when played well) remains the de facto meta (semantics; most efficient tactic available) for killing players in general. With that being said, DK is still very easy to get immense value out of as well, regardless (so the floor is still very relatively high, in other words). As mentioned, ‘a good DK will beat a good wolf’ and only a good DK has the potential to kill just about anyone in 1-2 seconds flat. By the way, no one disagreed the floor is higher which is absolutely the point (that doesn’t mean meta, however).

Major_Mangle · July 23

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)

Honestly, this borderline "propaganda" needs to stop. Just because werewolf doesn´t have the traditional "delayed skill + ult" combo doesn´t mean that it doesn´t have damage that isn´t equivalent to burst. On my current WW build I´ve several "post SPS nerf" CMX parses against good/proper geared players where I do anywhere from 25-30k damage in less than 2 GCD:s. I can do this kind of damage more or less every other GCD depending on the nature of the fight (not counting duels here but actual GvG´s or open world fights against solid players). I can stack so many instances of damage every other GCD that I put my opponent on full life support 90% of a fight. Only exception is when they abuse bugged Mara´s balm. At some point "pressure" stop being pressure when it does almost 15k dps. That´s not "pressure" that´s just burst disguised as pressure.

I mained ww for the longest time many many years ago so I´m well aware of old metas (even created some of them on PCEU) and how mediocre it became after the HP recovery nerfs and certain mythic nerfs etc etc. But downplaying that ww isn´t meta when played correctly is just down right disingenuous. Sure ww has some downside, but they´re easily mitigated by sets or CP (or in some cases playing as a duo removes 99% of the negatives) so arguing that ww doesn´t have "X, Y or Z" doesn´t hold, because you don´t balance the game from a solo/1vX perspective anyway.
I never debate/argue ESO balance from the perspective of a mediocre/average player, but from the perspective of fighting on an optimized setup vs proper geared players (as one should, since games like ESO should be balanced from the top down, not the other way around). WW is in the strongest spot it´s ever been in, and downplaying it is just utterly insane.

Wuuffyy · July 23

Major_Mangle wrote: »

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)

Honestly, this borderline "propaganda" needs to stop. Just because werewolf doesn´t have the traditional "delayed skill + ult" combo doesn´t mean that it doesn´t have damage that isn´t equivalent to burst. On my current WW build I´ve several "post SPS nerf" CMX parses against good/proper geared players where I do anywhere from 25-30k damage in less than 2 GCD:s. I can do this kind of damage more or less every other GCD depending on the nature of the fight (not counting duels here but actual GvG´s or open world fights against solid players). I can stack so many instances of damage every other GCD that I put my opponent on full life support 90% of a fight. Only exception is when they abuse bugged Mara´s balm. At some point "pressure" stop being pressure when it does almost 15k dps. That´s not "pressure" that´s just burst disguised as pressure.

I mained ww for the longest time many many years ago so I´m well aware of old metas (even created some of them on PCEU) and how mediocre it became after the HP recovery nerfs and certain mythic nerfs etc etc. But downplaying that ww isn´t meta when played correctly is just down right disingenuous. Sure ww has some downside, but they´re easily mitigated by sets or CP (or in some cases playing as a duo removes 99% of the negatives) so arguing that ww doesn´t have "X, Y or Z" doesn´t hold, because you don´t balance the game from a solo/1vX perspective anyway.
I never debate/argue ESO balance from the perspective of a mediocre/average player, but from the perspective of fighting on an optimized setup vs proper geared players (as one should, since games like ESO should be balanced from the top down, not the other way around). WW is in the strongest spot it´s ever been in, and downplaying it is just utterly insane.

A person spamming light attack and surprise attack is pressuring you, a dot build may pressure you- this is not burst (especially not onslaught into a 22-27k whip at the same time Flames and CoE are landing for around 10k each)

///

For wolf-

15-30k in 2 GCDs (as you mention; citing from you only) is not 25-50k in 1-2 seconds.

The execute dot does nothing out of execute (300 damage full health, no impact damage)

The claw should be relatively the same as a DK dot comparatively (actually less because of it being only 6 seconds on players).

The bite quite literally procs the exact same status as surprise attack and only does a tiny bit more damage comparatively (exe and heals are simply because we don’t have alternatives to these in-kit)

The relatively unused (in PvP) berserker bleed dot only lasts 1 second.

///

None of this is equivalent to multiple moves that are allowed to be used in unison/near perfect harmony, into a delayed stun with each skill tooltipping for roughly 10-20k.

Pressure does not equal burst and no, that isn’t ’fake news’.

dark_hunterxmg · July 23

Major_Mangle wrote: »

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)

Honestly, this borderline "propaganda" needs to stop. Just because werewolf doesn´t have the traditional "delayed skill + ult" combo doesn´t mean that it doesn´t have damage that isn´t equivalent to burst. On my current WW build I´ve several "post SPS nerf" CMX parses against good/proper geared players where I do anywhere from 25-30k damage in less than 2 GCD:s. I can do this kind of damage more or less every other GCD depending on the nature of the fight (not counting duels here but actual GvG´s or open world fights against solid players). I can stack so many instances of damage every other GCD that I put my opponent on full life support 90% of a fight. Only exception is when they abuse bugged Mara´s balm. At some point "pressure" stop being pressure when it does almost 15k dps. That´s not "pressure" that´s just burst disguised as pressure.

I mained ww for the longest time many many years ago so I´m well aware of old metas (even created some of them on PCEU) and how mediocre it became after the HP recovery nerfs and certain mythic nerfs etc etc. But downplaying that ww isn´t meta when played correctly is just down right disingenuous. Sure ww has some downside, but they´re easily mitigated by sets or CP (or in some cases playing as a duo removes 99% of the negatives) so arguing that ww doesn´t have "X, Y or Z" doesn´t hold, because you don´t balance the game from a solo/1vX perspective anyway.
I never debate/argue ESO balance from the perspective of a mediocre/average player, but from the perspective of fighting on an optimized setup vs proper geared players (as one should, since games like ESO should be balanced from the top down, not the other way around). WW is in the strongest spot it´s ever been in, and downplaying it is just utterly insane.

Almost 15k DPS against properly geared players? Man, I absolutely have to see this werewolf in action. Are you on PCNA?

Militan1404 · July 23

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)

Honestly, this borderline "propaganda" needs to stop. Just because werewolf doesn´t have the traditional "delayed skill + ult" combo doesn´t mean that it doesn´t have damage that isn´t equivalent to burst. On my current WW build I´ve several "post SPS nerf" CMX parses against good/proper geared players where I do anywhere from 25-30k damage in less than 2 GCD:s. I can do this kind of damage more or less every other GCD depending on the nature of the fight (not counting duels here but actual GvG´s or open world fights against solid players). I can stack so many instances of damage every other GCD that I put my opponent on full life support 90% of a fight. Only exception is when they abuse bugged Mara´s balm. At some point "pressure" stop being pressure when it does almost 15k dps. That´s not "pressure" that´s just burst disguised as pressure.

I mained ww for the longest time many many years ago so I´m well aware of old metas (even created some of them on PCEU) and how mediocre it became after the HP recovery nerfs and certain mythic nerfs etc etc. But downplaying that ww isn´t meta when played correctly is just down right disingenuous. Sure ww has some downside, but they´re easily mitigated by sets or CP (or in some cases playing as a duo removes 99% of the negatives) so arguing that ww doesn´t have "X, Y or Z" doesn´t hold, because you don´t balance the game from a solo/1vX perspective anyway.
I never debate/argue ESO balance from the perspective of a mediocre/average player, but from the perspective of fighting on an optimized setup vs proper geared players (as one should, since games like ESO should be balanced from the top down, not the other way around). WW is in the strongest spot it´s ever been in, and downplaying it is just utterly insane.

A person spamming light attack and surprise attack is pressuring you, a dot build may pressure you- this is not burst (especially not onslaught into a 22-27k whip at the same time Flames and CoE are landing for around 10k each)

///

For wolf-

15-30k in 2 GCDs (as you mention; citing from you only) is not 25-50k in 1-2 seconds.

The execute dot does nothing out of execute (300 damage full health, no impact damage)

The claw should be relatively the same as a DK dot comparatively (actually less because of it being only 6 seconds on players).

The bite quite literally procs the exact same status as surprise attack and only does a tiny bit more damage comparatively (exe and heals are simply because we don’t have alternatives to these in-kit)

The relatively unused (in PvP) berserker bleed dot only lasts 1 second.

///

None of this is equivalent to multiple moves that are allowed to be used in unison/near perfect harmony, into a delayed stun with each skill tooltipping for roughly 10-20k.

Pressure does not equal burst and no, that isn’t ’fake news’.

Yeah its a big diffrence, even from ww from each class, and in my opinion ww should not even have class passives or class masterys.

Whats dosent make sense for you? Should i write it with big letters så maybe your brain would be capable to understand?? One bar takes less skill even if the buffs are halfed, less risk as you offensive bar is also your defensive bar, on two bar builds there is a certain risk reward that you dont have on one bar, of a one bar build preformed as well as a two bar build then why would anyone in their right mind play a two bar build??

And for all those cons you mentioned they still preformed so well just proves how busted they really are.

Lol so its us now, you said you where DK didnt you? So now you are ww. Think most here see right thru your propaganda where you trying to convince everyone how ww is not op.

Militan1404 · July 23

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

Contrary to popular belief, wolf doesn’t suddenly make a player uber-competent at the game, nothing but time in and willingness to experiment and learn will do this (and ergo one of many reasons that even those with high health can die).

What you trying to say it takes skill to play a WW? When i made mine i didnt even read what the skills did and still did 10 bgs + before i got my first death so dont try to convince us that it takes skill. Ww is crutches where players that did bad even on DKs last patch does good on WW now, and a one bar build should not preform as good as a two bar build, thats why oakensoul got nerfed years ago.

It takes skill to play it well against good players. Doing well in a BG doesn't really mean much. Sounds like MMR was on your side. You didn't just throw something together and smash good players with it.

I have bad mr and like every 2-3 skill really goes off, but i am used to it so its fine. Well this time i tried a random ww build i found on yt, just copy pasted the skills with out reading what they did and did fine. Well often i do just that, usually i am lazy and just throw on the torch becouse i am to lazy find a set.

Wuuffyy · July 23

Militan1404 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

-no burst (no like really, go through the skills)

Honestly, this borderline "propaganda" needs to stop. Just because werewolf doesn´t have the traditional "delayed skill + ult" combo doesn´t mean that it doesn´t have damage that isn´t equivalent to burst. On my current WW build I´ve several "post SPS nerf" CMX parses against good/proper geared players where I do anywhere from 25-30k damage in less than 2 GCD:s. I can do this kind of damage more or less every other GCD depending on the nature of the fight (not counting duels here but actual GvG´s or open world fights against solid players). I can stack so many instances of damage every other GCD that I put my opponent on full life support 90% of a fight. Only exception is when they abuse bugged Mara´s balm. At some point "pressure" stop being pressure when it does almost 15k dps. That´s not "pressure" that´s just burst disguised as pressure.

I mained ww for the longest time many many years ago so I´m well aware of old metas (even created some of them on PCEU) and how mediocre it became after the HP recovery nerfs and certain mythic nerfs etc etc. But downplaying that ww isn´t meta when played correctly is just down right disingenuous. Sure ww has some downside, but they´re easily mitigated by sets or CP (or in some cases playing as a duo removes 99% of the negatives) so arguing that ww doesn´t have "X, Y or Z" doesn´t hold, because you don´t balance the game from a solo/1vX perspective anyway.
I never debate/argue ESO balance from the perspective of a mediocre/average player, but from the perspective of fighting on an optimized setup vs proper geared players (as one should, since games like ESO should be balanced from the top down, not the other way around). WW is in the strongest spot it´s ever been in, and downplaying it is just utterly insane.

A person spamming light attack and surprise attack is pressuring you, a dot build may pressure you- this is not burst (especially not onslaught into a 22-27k whip at the same time Flames and CoE are landing for around 10k each)

///

For wolf-

15-30k in 2 GCDs (as you mention; citing from you only) is not 25-50k in 1-2 seconds.

The execute dot does nothing out of execute (300 damage full health, no impact damage)

The claw should be relatively the same as a DK dot comparatively (actually less because of it being only 6 seconds on players).

The bite quite literally procs the exact same status as surprise attack and only does a tiny bit more damage comparatively (exe and heals are simply because we don’t have alternatives to these in-kit)

The relatively unused (in PvP) berserker bleed dot only lasts 1 second.

///

None of this is equivalent to multiple moves that are allowed to be used in unison/near perfect harmony, into a delayed stun with each skill tooltipping for roughly 10-20k.

Pressure does not equal burst and no, that isn’t ’fake news’.

Yeah its a big diffrence, even from ww from each class, and in my opinion ww should not even have class passives or class masterys.

Whats dosent make sense for you? Should i write it with big letters så maybe your brain would be capable to understand?? One bar takes less skill even if the buffs are halfed, less risk as you offensive bar is also your defensive bar, on two bar builds there is a certain risk reward that you dont have on one bar, of a one bar build preformed as well as a two bar build then why would anyone in their right mind play a two bar build??

And for all those cons you mentioned they still preformed so well just proves how busted they really are.

Lol so its us now, you said you where DK didnt you? So now you are ww. Think most here see right thru your propaganda where you trying to convince everyone how ww is not op.

I said I was multiple things (you can re-read above), my friend. Nothing in this game prohibits me from playing re-logging and playing through a list of my multiple classes.

If you did the same, you would likely have a deeper understanding of the conversation on a contextual level (as exploring DK further has given me).

I nor you need to use sophisticated terminology to explain what is objectively true. Werewolf’s limit is far under that of a DK; nothing will beat the ability to nearly-instantly-kill a player (like DK) within a second while your delayed stun lands (and this can be done very simply, even without corro).

I cannot kill a high-sustain player on my werewolf whereas my DK easily can. That is the definition of a lockout for targets due to playstyle (pressure does not best high/infinite sustain such as that provided by CoE used properly). This is not rocket science- it’s like a bruiser versus a bruiser, except one (the DK) has the ability to near-instantly kill a wolf at any time when they’re both knowledgeable and built properly.

Obviously non-reworked classes pale in comparison to reworked classes (in terms of viability outside of the ‘best of the best’), hence why there is an agenda and a promise to update every class. The only debate around this point would be the expediency of this process- which is inherently not the werewolf rework’s ‘fault’.

Vondreas · July 23

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

I can wipe players with x3 higher Champion Points on my sloppy build. WW needs to be nerfed yesterday.

Vondreas · July 23

Militan1404 wrote: »

a one bar build should not preform as good as a two bar build, thats why oakensoul got nerfed years ago.

Even nerfed, it beats out players with two bars.

ketsparrowhawk · July 23

WW's are about as tough to kill as sorcs these days. And every WW is a sorc. Take a look at those class mastery passives. That's where the nerf hammer needs to be aimed.

Wuuffyy · July 23

Vondreas wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

I can wipe players with x3 higher Champion Points on my sloppy build. WW needs to be nerfed yesterday.

Champion points are not equaled to skill. Your sloppy build doesn’t suddenly make the enemy ‘good’.

‘DK needs nerfed yesterday’, ‘Sorc needs nerfed yesterday’ because I am claiming I killed someone above my champion points with no other information.

Go ask around your server for who’s the ‘best of best’ (I promise they’ll be on a DK). Go fight them and let me know how your sloppy build performs. Now make the ‘non sloppy’ build (whatever that means to you) and fight them again. Result the same? There you go.

~~~~

*ps, this is how DK works right now. You could get 500 CP, get corro or onslaught, and insta-kill just about anyone you want by the way; this with the added benefit of being able to subclass with their lines and perform similarly elsewhere (quick reminder that DK and wolf are the only reworked ‘classes’ as of right now, for reference)

wketsparrowhawk wrote: »

WW's are about as tough to kill as sorcs these days. And every WW is a sorc. Take a look at those class mastery passives. That's where the nerf hammer needs to be aimed.

We are no longer the top of the top for parses. We remain almost exclusively ST (with less utility) primarily for high-end (roughly 185k) or by using claw fury we have lower end dps (cleave) of about 140k in a melee cleave (with around less AoE DPS than Arc with AoE dots) and less protection (no shield).

To even consider losing these passives a proper replacement (werewolf ‘mastery’, for example) would need to be considered to keep us viable in relevant content.
~~~

*quick reminder that these numbers are the TOP of the TOP on a DUMMY (meaning average player performance varies greatly AND this is based on a perfect, optimal scenario + the dummy isn’t a raid lead that is there to tell you about the efficiency or lack-there-of regarding potentially losing 50-100k AoE DPS by running a wolf).

Luneca · July 23

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Could have sworn you claimed elsewhere that:

1. You didn't care about PvP and mostly PvE
2. PvP was getting PvE nerfed, with huge blocks of implying that you're a PvEr angry about being nerfed because of PvP

And yet now you're saying that you did in fact use that mythic in PvP, enough for you to complain here that it was removed from PvP.

Yeah, can't say I didn't expect this when following the continuity of your statements and logic behind them about subclassing, mythics, etc.

Thanks for providing proof for what was already obvious. Thanks for the self-expose.

Wuuffyy · July 23

Luneca wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Could have sworn you claimed elsewhere that:

1. You didn't care about PvP and mostly PvE
2. PvP was getting PvE nerfed, with huge blocks of implying that you're a PvEr angry about being nerfed because of PvP

And yet now you're saying that you did in fact use that mythic in PvP, enough for you to complain here that it was removed from PvP.

Yeah, can't say I didn't expect this when following the continuity of your statements and logic behind them about subclassing, mythics, etc.

Thanks for providing proof for what was already obvious. Thanks for the self-expose.

So they self-exposed by saying they are tired of nerfs? Or that Signet did legitimately make non-reworked specs arguably more competitive to DK and wolf? (I, again, personally did not like Signet myself- for the record)

When the reasoning to nerf something is because it makes certain content more accessible (like Tide Born, Arc Beam debate, Wizard’s, etc.), at a point you should be taking minority-party-sourced-ranting with a modicum of salt (again DK, which is ‘fine’, is the de-facto best spec in the game in all degrees right now yet werewolf ‘must be destroyed NOW’)

Please, @Luneca- go back to firing siege, listen to some music, and just vibe at this point.

Militan1404 · July 23

Luneca wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Could have sworn you claimed elsewhere that:

1. You didn't care about PvP and mostly PvE
2. PvP was getting PvE nerfed, with huge blocks of implying that you're a PvEr angry about being nerfed because of PvP

And yet now you're saying that you did in fact use that mythic in PvP, enough for you to complain here that it was removed from PvP.

Yeah, can't say I didn't expect this when following the continuity of your statements and logic behind them about subclassing, mythics, etc.

Thanks for providing proof for what was already obvious. Thanks for the self-expose.

Yeah lol, hes making it up as it fits and then forgets about it. First he was a dk main then suddenly he forgetts and is a ww main. Hes just saying annything to keep hes crutches that he so desperately needs

Militan1404 · July 24

Vondreas wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I really like to say this as it’s true, but I have been clipping all the 35-40k+ wolves I run into and just annihilate. Along with the DKs that insta-kill me when I run my own wolf in OW. Apologies to say but most wolves that you ‘can’t kill’ on a properly geared PvP toon don’t deal significant damage and ‘are tanks’ or die all the same; anything in the middle is typically a ‘good player’ that knows how to self-manage.

I can wipe players with x3 higher Champion Points on my sloppy build. WW needs to be nerfed yesterday.

Yeah just becouse he cant he means ww are not op, skill issue i guess

IncultaWolf · July 24

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

WW's are about as tough to kill as sorcs these days. And every WW is a sorc. Take a look at those class mastery passives. That's where the nerf hammer needs to be aimed.

Finally, someone using their brain on this forum

Wuuffyy · July 24

Militan1404 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Could have sworn you claimed elsewhere that:

1. You didn't care about PvP and mostly PvE
2. PvP was getting PvE nerfed, with huge blocks of implying that you're a PvEr angry about being nerfed because of PvP

And yet now you're saying that you did in fact use that mythic in PvP, enough for you to complain here that it was removed from PvP.

Yeah, can't say I didn't expect this when following the continuity of your statements and logic behind them about subclassing, mythics, etc.

Thanks for providing proof for what was already obvious. Thanks for the self-expose.

Yeah lol, hes making it up as it fits and then forgets about it. First he was a dk main then suddenly he forgetts and is a ww main. Hes just saying annything to keep hes crutches that he so desperately needs

He’s not even referring to me there (check his quote) plus:

“I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).”

and

“I said I was multiple things (you can re-read above), my friend.”

You can ctrl+F either of those right now and find this (simply letting you know I have not said here I ‘main’ any specific thing or rather ‘I only play one thing’). This is somewhat like the person above that (paraphrasing) just said ‘only people that agree with me have a brain’. Because this is your ‘argument’. 0.o

Militan1404 · July 24

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

We were killing Werewolves and DKs! With our Wardens until everyone cried and had it taken away and completely ruined. They ruined the Bear, its Class Passive and Shattered Path. You cant make this stuff up. Stop nerfing our characters and gear! Every nerf just creates more problems. It's never enough and it needs to stop.

Could have sworn you claimed elsewhere that:

1. You didn't care about PvP and mostly PvE
2. PvP was getting PvE nerfed, with huge blocks of implying that you're a PvEr angry about being nerfed because of PvP

And yet now you're saying that you did in fact use that mythic in PvP, enough for you to complain here that it was removed from PvP.

Yeah, can't say I didn't expect this when following the continuity of your statements and logic behind them about subclassing, mythics, etc.

Thanks for providing proof for what was already obvious. Thanks for the self-expose.

Yeah lol, hes making it up as it fits and then forgets about it. First he was a dk main then suddenly he forgetts and is a ww main. Hes just saying annything to keep hes crutches that he so desperately needs

He’s not even referring to me there (check his quote) plus:

“I have little to no issues killing the vast majority of werewolves on my server as a wolf, DK, and even a pure-class NB now (I do run S&B back bar and have shade, cloak, rally, mono).”

and

“I said I was multiple things (you can re-read above), my friend.”

You can ctrl+F either of those right now and find this (simply letting you know I have not said here I ‘main’ any specific thing or rather ‘I only play one thing’). This is somewhat like the person above that (paraphrasing) just said ‘only people that agree with me have a brain’. Because this is your ‘argument’. 0.o

No dont think i said you dont have a brain, i think i know exactly what your trying to do. Your trying to twist it so it seems ww is not OP and so under dog at all while dk is so OP. There is a reason WW is new think(other than everyone is kind of sick of dk), if dk was still the ultimate top dog then everyone would still be it and not sorc and ww.