Wrist pain when playing HA build

Korvax_Ironwhisper · July 22

I use a Flydigi Vader 3 pro, it has front C and Z buttons below the standard four. Also the four back paddles. The newest 5 model added two more buttons between the triggers and bumpers. I saw that on another, Wolverine? Maybe. My favorite controller yet.

spartaxoxo · July 22

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

A big help for this would be to allow us toggle on/off heavy attacks when pressed down once. Same for sprint, for that matter.

Korvax_Ironwhisper · July 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

A big help for this would be to allow us toggle on/off heavy attacks when pressed down once. Same for sprint, for that matter.

Yes, and fixing the heavy attack locking breaking on occasion.

katanagirl1 · July 23

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

@ZOS_Kevin Arcanist is the single best thing you guys have done for people like me with hand/wrist problems. This class build with no light attack weaving takes a big strain off of my hands and allows me to play long enough to run a 2 hour trial nonstop. I can slot Camo Hunter for both bars of the R1 button on controller and just not use my troublesome index finger at all. It has been a life saver for my gaming. I hope your combat team will ensure that the class can remain strong enough for end game activities in future updates.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · July 23

Light attack weaving should be removed. Also known as animation canceling. This is a far bigger culprit. HA is much more comfortable than even the Arcanist but it lacks ranged Cleave and Splash damage. And that needs to be restored so every Class can do it, not just Arcanists.

I mostly play on console because its far more comfortable, especially when tanking back to back trials on end. After that, who really feels like trying to weave? Can I weave? Sure. Should I have to? Absolutely not.

Ardriel · July 23

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Light attack weaving should be removed. Also known as animation canceling. This is a far bigger culprit. HA is much more comfortable than even the Arcanist but it lacks ranged Cleave and Splash damage. And that needs to be restored so every Class can do it, not just Arcanists.

I mostly play on console because its far more comfortable, especially when tanking back to back trials on end. After that, who really feels like trying to weave? Can I weave? Sure. Should I have to? Absolutely not.

Above all, rapidly repeated or continuous actions—such as mouse clicks for light attacks or holding down the button for heavy attacks—seem to be the main source of problems.
ZOS should find solutions to this. Perhaps an additional key binding for automatic heavy attacks that you only have to press once briefly? I’m not sure if something like that would even be technically possible. As for automatic light attacks, I'm not sure whether it would even be feasible or useful.

Light attack weaving has repeatedly been criticized by many players. ZOS has already made some attempts in this direction to improve the gameplay experience—such as the Velothi Amulet or the Arcanist—as well as to significantly reduce the damage dealt by light attacks.
But I agree that there’s definitely still a need for action here.
The fact that builds and playstyles that can cause health issues are still meta is, in my opinion, very concerning.

allochthons · July 23

Ardriel wrote: »

The fact that builds and playstyles that can cause health issues are still meta is, in my opinion, very concerning.

Agreed. The science behind Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) has been known for years. Weaving could not be designed better for triggering it.

Korvax_Ironwhisper · July 23

I'd like them to relook at the splash dmg now that it doesn't work in pvp.

Nemesis7884 · July 23

Use a controller

HerowynKerowyn · July 23

This made me think of a judo thing my son’s sensei used to say — don’t grip with your index finger because it strains the forearm more. I’ve played piano since I was five and typed for a living for years, so I’ve got some old repetitive‑stress stuff in my hands. Sometimes they go numb or I drop things. So when my index finger is doing all the work in ESO, I feel it pretty quickly.

virtus753 · July 23

allochthons wrote: »

*There is now an add-on, which I haven't really tested, called Oh No My Menu, which prevents a menu from opening when you're trying to rez another player.

Do you know if this exists for PC?

Ever since ZOS introduced native support for PlayStation controllers years ago, I’ve had this input delay problem. Kevin said they were “working to resolve this,” though that team may need a rescue effort at this point:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/654226/anyone-else-notice-a-change-to-holding-down-buttons-in-gamepad-mode/p1

An add-on to stop the menu from coming up might help mitigate further problems from the delay, even if it might not fix it.

BretonMage · July 23

Ardriel wrote: »

Above all, rapidly repeated or continuous actions—such as mouse clicks for light attacks or holding down the button for heavy attacks—seem to be the main source of problems.
ZOS should find solutions to this. Perhaps an additional key binding for automatic heavy attacks that you only have to press once briefly? I’m not sure if something like that would even be technically possible. As for automatic light attacks, I'm not sure whether it would even be feasible or useful.

Light attack weaving has repeatedly been criticized by many players. ZOS has already made some attempts in this direction to improve the gameplay experience—such as the Velothi Amulet or the Arcanist—as well as to significantly reduce the damage dealt by light attacks.
But I agree that there’s definitely still a need for action here.
The fact that builds and playstyles that can cause health issues are still meta is, in my opinion, very concerning.

Yes, absolutely. For me it's any repetitive playstyle that makes my hands sore, whether it's continuous LA weaving or continuous HA. When I use Oakensoul, it's more for the flexibility of its numerous buffs than for a strict HA playstyle, and I've found I enjoy switching from a few LA weaves to beaming to the occasional HA, whenever the situation requires it or when my hands get tired.

katanagirl1 · July 23

I want to note too when the Oakensoul ring and HA build was created it was touted as an “accessibility” tool in ESO and I misunderstood that to mean it was designed for players with hand or other health issues. That is the typical context for the use of the word when I hear it nowadays. Later it was clarified that it was designed more to make the game more accessible to new players. It is therefore not a surprise that it does not help me even if the APM is lower than builds with light attack weaving. Each player is different though, so it probably did help some players at least by reducing the strain for them. It has fewer buffs to keep up and a simpler skill rotation. It’s sort of like training wheels to get new players to possibly try light attack weaving builds later or at least get them into content.

Shannoria · July 24

Im doing heavy attacks on my build too and the only thing that hurts, is my moms head, from me yelling on whole house non-existing curse words at Azandar when he rolldodges with Archive boss thru wall, cause he has some BLOB inside his skull where BRAIN should be.

Panderbander · July 24

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

Luneca · July 24

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

Exactly. We have no idea how much these guys are playing. Even my arm starts to hurt after firing 6 siege for an hour when it's 1 v 20+ at KC and nobody is watching (or helping).

Umbracat449 · July 24

Why can't zos offer a toggle as well as a hold down function in settings?

Ardriel · July 24

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

If you had read my posts carefully, you’d know that I’m not blaming the game.
And as has already been said several times in this thread, people are different and have various health issues, and most of them are therefore under medical care.
Many players have no health issues whatsoever with the game’s controls or the meta gameplay.
However, there are also many who do have difficulties. That’s why there are alternatives for them, such as 1-bar HA builds.
I was just surprised that, for me personally, the opposite is true. Light attack weaving and bar swapping aren’t a problem for me, but continuous heavy attacks with the left mouse button are.

Ardriel · July 24

HerowynKerowyn wrote: »

This made me think of a judo thing my son’s sensei used to say — don’t grip with your index finger because it strains the forearm more. I’ve played piano since I was five and typed for a living for years, so I’ve got some old repetitive‑stress stuff in my hands. Sometimes they go numb or I drop things. So when my index finger is doing all the work in ESO, I feel it pretty quickly.

Maybe my index finger has gotten used to this specific requirement (repeatedly clicking the left mouse button for light attacks) and just needs time to adjust to the new one.

I spent 1 1/2 hours in a raid yesterday with the HA build, and I have to say, it really hurt afterward. But not as bad as when I’m parsing.
Since I never play the HA build otherwise, it’s probably just a matter of getting used to it.

AzuraFan · July 24

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

I play other games in addition to ESO. Only ESO aggravates my RSI. Having to constantly button mash in combat, as in doing something every second most of the time, is just brutal. Other games, I can play with no problem. I don't game for hours on end in any game, though. I learned my lesson...

I've been gaming for over 40 years and used to game longer hours than I do now. I'm probably reaping the "benefits" of that (younger gamers who are doing the same will also reap the "benefits" in the future), but ESO's combat is the absolute worst for aggravating my injury.

(and yes, of course I've seen a doctor for this - it's a plain old RSI.)

katanagirl1 · July 24

AzuraFan wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

I play other games in addition to ESO. Only ESO aggravates my RSI. Having to constantly button mash in combat, as in doing something every second most of the time, is just brutal. Other games, I can play with no problem. I don't game for hours on end in any game, though. I learned my lesson...

I've been gaming for over 40 years and used to game longer hours than I do now. I'm probably reaping the "benefits" of that (younger gamers who are doing the same will also reap the "benefits" in the future), but ESO's combat is the absolute worst for aggravating my injury.

(and yes, of course I've seen a doctor for this - it's a plain old RSI.)

Exactly. It’s not even just one button press every time for skills, it is twice that number if you light attack with every skill, and one finger is doing twice the work of the others. No wonder it is a problem. For HA builds holding the trigger down without squeezing too hard doesn’t always work well. I have been to a couple of doctors and the options are surgery or physical therapy. I am just trying to be able to still enjoy playing video games like I have for decades (but less time with the furious button mashing part now). Combat in ESO requires using all of the buttons unlike other games I play. There are only a couple of options for remapping keys on PS controller in ESO but for example when I played Oblivion Remastered I was able to remap the attack from right trigger to left trigger and that helped immensely.

ceruulean · July 24

Here's an outside review of ESO combat: Is ESO Combat Actually Bad? I Tested It.

ESO has unique combat because you can move while casting skills, so while combat is floaty, you have a lot of freedom and control to cast skills. So the 1st part, floaty combat, is "the floatiness wasn't unbearable. The combat still flowed smoothly, and I could chain attacks without awkward pauses. The lack of weight made it easier to keep moving and weaving attacks, but it also made the hits less satisfying... The test confirms the claim that combat feels floaty and weightless, but it doesn't break the game. It's a design choice that trades impact for fluidity."

However, the second part about light attack weaving was criticized. "The character's movements looked jerky, and the constant animation cancelling made the fight feel less fluid. I get why people hate this. This test leans toward the claim being true. Light attack weaving looks weird and makes combat feel worse, especially for new or casual players."

In ESO, the optimal DPS rotation is to "click click skill" in a heartbeat fashion, 60 bpm. Two clicks are needed because of input lag when the first click may not fire or queue. If you're doing hardcore content, maintaining this rotation for a 2 hour raid prog is tedious and will probably cause RSI. Obviously taking a break and having good ergonomics are important, but I think anyone can see the insanity in this. The effective APM to play ESO optimally is 120-150 (because of double clicking, moving your character, bash/barswap canceling, potions/synergy, etc). That's in line with the most APM intensive classes in Black Desert Online, which has action combat and more variety for low APM playstyles.

Other games have combos that you activate with the left/right mouse button, and you have to wait for the damage window to deal maximum dps, kind of like the old templar jabs. You'd naturally wait 1-3 seconds before using another skill, or you can block/roll dodge and cancel the skill early, but lose the damage window. There's natural rest windows even when doing max dps, and it's not a repetitive 60bpm rhythm. LA weaving is an awful mechanic in ESO. LA weaving is a unique skill trained in ESO but is very intense and niche. Actual PvP games like MOBAs and FPS don't have this monotonous 60bpm playstyle either. Same case with HA builds, it's repetitive and produces tension in the tendons.

spartaxoxo · July 24

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

It's different people giving this feedback. For me Heavy Attack Builds and Beam builds are comfy but my hands hurt if I do light attack builds too much which is why I mostly avoid doing them and have accepted that I'll never be the most elite DPS. I get decent performance out of those builds so they're good enough for me.

Anyway repetitive stress injuries affect different people in different ways. For some reason people tend to act like ailments are one size fits all but that's absolutely not the case. One person could have the same ailment as another and one could of them could still do light attack weaving and the other can't and it's got nothing to do with lack of effort but the way they both experience the pain.

Varana · July 26

What has helped me a lot was when I started to use a vertical mouse. That makes wrist placement much more natural and less strained, at least for me.

I do have a similar problem with HA builds, though - I hold down the button way too hard, which causes more issues that traditional LA weaving builds. Most of that is my own problem and a small part of it is ESO's unreliability to connect HAs in some circumstances.

Arcanist is a really good compromise (DK breath build probably also, no idea how the new Werewolf one works), so that might be worth checking out. Also, esp. for group content, not every HA/one-bar build needs Oakensoul. ;-)

I'm not sure about anyone else's setup, but I use skills/movement buttons and LA/HA with different hands, one on the keyboard and the other on the mouse. So the load isn't only on one hand there.

Just "make it a toggle" sounds easier than it is to implement, I fear - what if I want to click something else? what about menus? what if I only want to light attack? It could probably be solved, but it needs a lot of work to do that.

HatchetHaro · July 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

I play other games in addition to ESO. Only ESO aggravates my RSI. Having to constantly button mash in combat, as in doing something every second most of the time, is just brutal. Other games, I can play with no problem. I don't game for hours on end in any game, though. I learned my lesson...

I've been gaming for over 40 years and used to game longer hours than I do now. I'm probably reaping the "benefits" of that (younger gamers who are doing the same will also reap the "benefits" in the future), but ESO's combat is the absolute worst for aggravating my injury.

(and yes, of course I've seen a doctor for this - it's a plain old RSI.)

It really depends on what your definition of "button-mashing" is. You really don't have to press ability keys more than once per second, and the same goes for light-attacks. It's a timing thing; anything beyond these two inputs per second for combat is extraneous; I wouldn't consider that "button-mashing".

Of course, two inputs per second on the same hand is still not ideal for RSI. If you'd like a potential solution, there are controllers that have hair trigger functionality, paddle buttons, and let you remap any button anywhere. Depending on platform, you can also consider other forms of accessible input, such as foot pedals.

AzuraFan · July 26

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It really depends on what your definition of "button-mashing" is. You really don't have to press ability keys more than once per second, and the same goes for light-attacks. It's a timing thing; anything beyond these two inputs per second for combat is extraneous; I wouldn't consider that "button-mashing".

To me, once/twice per second is button mashing. And I don't light attack weave, so I'm not even doing that most of the time.

Of course, two inputs per second on the same hand is still not ideal for RSI.

It's not ideal whether you have an RSI or not.

If you'd like a potential solution, there are controllers that have hair trigger functionality, paddle buttons, and let you remap any button anywhere. Depending on platform, you can also consider other forms of accessible input, such as foot pedals.

Thanks for the suggestions. However, when I can play many, many other games with no problem, and there's just the one game that's a problem because of the way combat is designed, I'm honestly not too motivated to go out of my way to find a solution. When playing ESO, I use a controller and I know my limits. Otherwise, I'm playing games that don't require an input (maybe two) every second when in combat in order to do decent damage.

HatchetHaro · July 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

If you'd like a potential solution, there are controllers that have hair trigger functionality, paddle buttons, and let you remap any button anywhere. Depending on platform, you can also consider other forms of accessible input, such as foot pedals.

Thanks for the suggestions. However, when I can play many, many other games with no problem, and there's just the one game that's a problem because of the way combat is designed, I'm honestly not too motivated to go out of my way to find a solution. When playing ESO, I use a controller and I know my limits. Otherwise, I'm playing games that don't require an input (maybe two) every second when in combat in order to do decent damage.

Well, at the very least, assuming that you're using the default XB/PS controller, it can be something you'd want to look into when choosing your next controller when your current one stops working properly and starts being annoying (e.g. stick drift). Third-party controllers have gotten really good.

AzuraFan · July 26

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Well, at the very least, assuming that you're using the default XB/PS controller, it can be something you'd want to look into when choosing your next controller when your current one stops working properly and starts being annoying (e.g. stick drift). Third-party controllers have gotten really good.

I might do that. However, I always have a new backup controller waiting, in case my controller stops working when I'm having fun. So it'll be two controllers later lol.

allochthons · July 27

virtus753 wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

*There is now an add-on, which I haven't really tested, called Oh No My Menu, which prevents a menu from opening when you're trying to rez another player.

Do you know if this exists for PC?

I don't, but I linked the bethesda add-on page for it. It should say there.

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience but I find it wild that we've gone from two bar builds are painful to HA builds are painful. At some point one might wonder, maybe a doctor's visit is in order before saying the game is the reason?

For me it's straight up boring arthritis.

ElysaDjinn · July 27

I've just seen this thread, and it's really interesting - some very helpful ideas here.

I have rheumatoid arthritis, plus a lot of osteo-type damage as a result. Because most of my joints are affected in one way or another, I actually have to vary the kind of gameplay I use, depending on which parts of my hands are most painful. I have one character who still has Oakensoul on the go, but she's rarely out these days, at least for any group content (I take solo content pretty slowly anyway because I like to focus on the story side of things). Being able to stop and start a lot, when playing alone, is really helpful in terms of not ending up with too much pain.

There are also two different builds which use other mythics plus a combination of skills largely based around channelling. I'm quite fortunate in that I have a couple of friends who regard it as a challenge to come up with a build I'll enjoy and find doable. I do have a pretty high-powered healer who I take into vet trials, but I restrict myself in terms of not doing that more than about once a week so although my hands may get painful towards the end of a two-hour session, I'm not exacerbating it by doing it every night.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
Just wanted to follow up here. Thank you for sharing your feedback about wrist pain when playing. We have heard some other reports like this and it is something we are looking into. Nothing to confirm at this time, but it is on the list as time allows.

It is really good news that you're at least looking into this sort of thing, thank you @ZOS_Kevin. I really appreciate the fact that it is at least on your radar, and hope you can come up with some ideas that will be helpful to people like those here.