ZOS_Amy wrote: »

We want to acknowledge all of the questions on why we're continuing to do these tests. Ultimately, we're still answering questions that will inform the future of PvP that can only be answered with a concentrated player population in a live environment.

Throughout Vengeance testing, we've been isolating different parts of ESO's combat systems to better understand what has the biggest impact on server performance during large-scale battles. What we've consistently seen is that reducing overall combat complexity allows Cyrodiil to support significantly more players with much better performance. Every ability in ESO can interact with passives, Champion Points, Item Sets, status effects, buffs, debuffs, and other systems. Each of those interactions requires additional server processing, and in large-scale PvP those checks add up quickly. That's why we're continuing these tests. We're testing and proving hypotheses in the environment that counts the most: the live game. Vengeance is still a testing environment, and to answer those questions with confidence, we need players participating in the same testing environment rather than split across multiple campaigns.

For those of you asking for Item Sets and to have more build options, this next round of testing is designed to answer exactly that question. Previous tests helped us establish a stable baseline. Now we're evaluating whether Item Sets can be reintroduced while preserving the performance improvements we've seen. If the data shows they don't meaningfully impact performance, that's a path we can explore further.

We also know there are players who enjoy Vengeance specifically because it offers a different gameplay experience than traditional Cyrodiil campaigns. Many of you have shared concerns about gameplay patterns associated with Item Sets and those concerns are just as important to this process. The goal isn't simply to restore systems because players asked for them. It's to understand what can be added back while preserving both the gameplay identity and the performance improvements that many of you have come to enjoy.

Whatever the outcome, this testing helps us make informed decisions about the future of PvP. If Item Sets prove to be compatible with those goals, that's something we'll be able to explore further. If they don't, that tells us something equally valuable and helps us evaluate other ways to expand build customization while maintaining the strengths Vengeance has demonstrated.

We know these temporary changes aren't how everyone wants to play, and we sincerely appreciate everyone who participates, shares feedback and helps us gather the data that will shape what comes next.

React wrote: »

Is this test going to help pinpoint the performance issues that translate to Grey Host? Will that data be used to benefit Grey Host? The population indicates vengeance is not popular whatsoever amongst most PVP players, and as someone who has no interest in vengeance, continuing to participate in tests which will not be used to better my preferred PVP environment feels pointless.

Further, enabling these sets within the vengeance ruleset feels absolutely unhinged. How exactly is that going to work? Everything is standardized in vengeance, but suddenly we have rallying cry, vicious death, balorgh, acuity, null arca, monomyth, etc? That sounds like it is going to be an miserable experience.

aetherix8 wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

The vast majority of us in GH and BR do not care the slightest bit that vengeance is around, you will see a very small portion those players advocate for it to be closed. For whatever reason though, you will see plenty of those in vengeance or those who advocate for it, also advocate for the closing of GH and/or BR.

You said at the beginning of your post that you don't particularly like reading this forum. You might therefore have missed those many, many, many posts asking for the closing of Vengeance, stopping it completely, and abandoning it as an environment to test performance issues in Cyrodiil. There are far fewer users asking for the closure of GH on this forum alone than there are those demanding the total cancellation of Vengeance.

As for the live server, I could pretty much reverse your sentence. The vast majority of us in Vengeance do not care the slightest bit that GH and BR are around, and there are extremly few advocating for them to be closed (only BR). People simply do not care at all.

I understand you play GH every day or so. I play Vengeance every day or so, and I currently happen to have all the time in the world, so I'm there during different hours. Nobody at all is ever saying that GH should be closed and Vengeance should be the only campaign. We just don't talk about GH that much as there's no reason whatsoever to do so. We have bigger concerns than GH, namely the ridiculous AoE caps, the lack of detection pots, and the infamous faction swappers.

But perhaps Vengeance players on PC NA act differently from Vengeance players on PC EU. I can only speak for my platform.

Stamicka wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

How many threads that push against vengence have been deleted now? 3?

All those threads contained post after post from people I see in GH daily explaining why they will never play Vengeance.

Instead of trying to suppress vengeance hate and play the "nothing constructive card thus moderating it".. maybe.. I don't know.. take the feedback and points being made in there and do something... constructive... with them?

Insane this is where we are at given everything that just happened to this studio.

The shadowboxing continues and it looks ridiculous tbh. Constant hysterics. ZOS has nothing against the Grey Host ruleset. Nothing at all.

They are making this new midsize zone for the people who like the Grey Host ruleset. They said so explicitly.

ZOS’ problem is with how low population caps are under the Grey Host ruleset in Cyrodiil the zone.

To be honest they’re kind of right. It’s crazy that yellow can own Alessia and red can own Sejanus, but that entire side of the map can be dead for hours in a pop locked Cyrodiil. I would never see that earlier on in the game.

I think Cyrodiil is a great map, but its size just isn’t good for a lively feeling PvP experience with population caps so low and ZOS has basically said it’s impossible to get population caps up under the Grey Host ruleset.

Nothing is happening to the Grey Host ruleset. It’s just that the plan is to move it to a smaller zone. I think this will be an improvement as PvP will feel more lively and there will be less mount riding and dead parts of the map. Cyrodiil will probably be for the very large scale battles which ZOS needs some form of Vengeance to pull off.

I get being attached to the Cyrodiil map, but you guys need to chill out and get a grip. Like it’s really not well suited for population levels right now, that’s just reality.

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Most comments from the person who doesn't substantiate anything.

What part of my post do you want evidence for? That ZOS said that the new mid size zone will be for the people who like Grey Host? I provided it in another thread, but here:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

Lastly, we do want to share a few early bits about some things that we are working on for PvP. You’ll hear a little more about these in January. For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host. We are also working on a PvP progression system that we’re excited to tell you a little more about early next year.

It could not have been said more explicitly. The mid size zone will be for the Grey Host ruleset. PvP is not under attack. ZOS is not pushing the Vengeance ruleset. You guys literally look insane organizing boycotts, threatening to cancel your subscriptions, making paranoid conspiracy posts about how ZOS wants Vengeance to be the future of PvP.

It's comical how overblown it's gotten. The reality is that this upcoming test is a test to see what impact sets have on Cyrodiil performance. In no case is the Grey Host rule set going away permanently. In the most extreme case it's just going to a zone suited for the low population which in my opinion, will be an improvement for PvP.

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

You were quoted twice before asking for evidence for your claims, from two different people within the last day. You ignored both requests and continued to spout nonsense and move past it. Engaging with you on any logical basis is pointless when you make things up and move past them without reason.

This literally didn't happen. Don't have a clue what you're on about. I just provided very clear evidence for you. I also looked through this thread and I didn't see anyone asking me for evidence.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Then release the damn zone first before you start taking away the place we currently enjoy PvPing in. It really is that simple.

And who's to say we'll even like this new zone? You're asking players to sacrifice the game mode they already enjoy for a hypothetical future experience that may or may not appeal to them.

Also, Gray Host fills up daily and regularly has queues despite these supposedly "low population caps." Clearly there is still more than enough interest in traditional Cyrodiil. The issue isn't a lack of demand for Gray Host—it's that people simply prefer it over Vengeance.

I'd like them to get this zone out sooner rather than later as well. I am aware of the layoffs though, so I don't know what timeline to expect unfortunately.

Uhhh.. yea if Grey Host has lower population caps it's easier to fill...

The reason the queues are so high is because not many people fit in there.

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Most comments from the person who doesn't substantiate anything.

What part of my post do you want evidence for? That ZOS said that the new mid size zone will be for the people who like Grey Host? I provided it in another thread, but here:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

Lastly, we do want to share a few early bits about some things that we are working on for PvP. You’ll hear a little more about these in January. For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host. We are also working on a PvP progression system that we’re excited to tell you a little more about early next year.

It could not have been said more explicitly. The mid size zone will be for the Grey Host ruleset. PvP is not under attack. ZOS is not pushing the Vengeance ruleset. You guys literally look insane organizing boycotts, threatening to cancel your subscriptions, making paranoid conspiracy posts about how ZOS wants Vengeance to be the future of PvP.

It's comical how overblown it's gotten. The reality is that this upcoming test is a test to see what impact sets have on Cyrodiil performance. In no case is the Grey Host rule set going away permanently. In the most extreme case it's just going to a zone suited for the low population which in my opinion, will be an improvement for PvP.

Stamicka wrote: »

Ingram wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Most comments from the person who doesn't substantiate anything.

What part of my post do you want evidence for? That ZOS said that the new mid size zone will be for the people who like Grey Host? I provided it in another thread, but here:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

Lastly, we do want to share a few early bits about some things that we are working on for PvP. You’ll hear a little more about these in January. For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host. We are also working on a PvP progression system that we’re excited to tell you a little more about early next year.

It could not have been said more explicitly. The mid size zone will be for the Grey Host ruleset. PvP is not under attack. ZOS is not pushing the Vengeance ruleset. You guys literally look insane organizing boycotts, threatening to cancel your subscriptions, making paranoid conspiracy posts about how ZOS wants Vengeance to be the future of PvP.

It's comical how overblown it's gotten. The reality is that this upcoming test is a test to see what impact sets have on Cyrodiil performance. In no case is the Grey Host rule set going away permanently. In the most extreme case it's just going to a zone suited for the low population which in my opinion, will be an improvement for PvP.

So what about the 100s of people that enjoy Grayhost on the current Cyrodiil map they having nothing to worry about right? The entire reason for these "tests" was to get to the core of the issue of server stability to return the campaign back to the 300 pop cap per faction that the game had originally.

That's still the reason for these tests. Vengeance does have higher population caps, so that part is at least successful. ZOS is claiming that it's impossible to give us both high caps and the Grey Host ruleset.

The question now is, how much has to get cut to get us those caps? If you are someone who isn't ok with any cuts, then you'll just have to accept low population caps or the new zone when it’s out.

Like I said, Cyrodiil is a good map. It's well designed. I like it too. I don't like how empty it feels in Grey Host though. I think it's unfortunate that population caps have gotten cut so low to the point where the Cyrodiil map just isn't a good fit anymore. If you are ok with how empty it feels, I mean you do you.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

You were quoted twice before asking for evidence for your claims, from two different people within the last day. You ignored both requests and continued to spout nonsense and move past it. Engaging with you on any logical basis is pointless when you make things up and move past them without reason.

This literally didn't happen. Don't have a clue what you're on about. I just provided very clear evidence for you. I also looked through this thread and I didn't see anyone asking me for evidence.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Then release the damn zone first before you start taking away the place we currently enjoy PvPing in. It really is that simple.

And who's to say we'll even like this new zone? You're asking players to sacrifice the game mode they already enjoy for a hypothetical future experience that may or may not appeal to them.

Also, Gray Host fills up daily and regularly has queues despite these supposedly "low population caps." Clearly there is still more than enough interest in traditional Cyrodiil. The issue isn't a lack of demand for Gray Host—it's that people simply prefer it over Vengeance.

I'd like them to get this zone out sooner rather than later as well. I am aware of the layoffs though, so I don't know what timeline to expect unfortunately.

Uhhh.. yea if Grey Host has lower population caps it's easier to fill...

The reason the queues are so high is because not many people fit in there.

I say this because you present the "low population caps" as though they're some major issue that players dislike, yet Gray Host continues to have extremely high demand despite them.

If people truly had such a problem with the Gray Host ruleset or the population limits, they simply wouldn't keep filling the campaign and sitting through hour-long queues to get in every night.

The queues don't prove players dislike Gray Host—they prove the opposite. They show that there is still enormous demand for traditional Cyrodiil despite all of its issues.

If anything, the fact that players are willing to endure long queues just to play Gray Host should be a strong indication of how much they prefer it over Vengeance. Otherwise, they would simply go play Vengeance instead. They don't. That's the entire point.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Most comments from the person who doesn't substantiate anything.

What part of my post do you want evidence for? That ZOS said that the new mid size zone will be for the people who like Grey Host? I provided it in another thread, but here:

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We recognize that some of our players would prefer there be no changes to their characters, effectively how they are in the Gray Host Cyrodiil campaign, while enjoying the higher population and reduced latency/game performance issues of the Vengeance campaign. This is not something that will be possible. Based on what we have learned from the tests so far, we can offer one or the other, not both, and we want to be transparent about that.

Lastly, we do want to share a few early bits about some things that we are working on for PvP. You’ll hear a little more about these in January. For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host. We are also working on a PvP progression system that we’re excited to tell you a little more about early next year.

It could not have been said more explicitly. The mid size zone will be for the Grey Host ruleset. PvP is not under attack. ZOS is not pushing the Vengeance ruleset. You guys literally look insane organizing boycotts, threatening to cancel your subscriptions, making paranoid conspiracy posts about how ZOS wants Vengeance to be the future of PvP.

It's comical how overblown it's gotten. The reality is that this upcoming test is a test to see what impact sets have on Cyrodiil performance. In no case is the Grey Host rule set going away permanently. In the most extreme case it's just going to a zone suited for the low population which in my opinion, will be an improvement for PvP.

There is no conspiracy here. Amy's latest post, along with countless previous statements from ZOS, has only reaffirmed what many of us have been saying for months: development focus appears to be shifting toward Vengeance.

The new mid-sized PvP zone is not proof of anything until we actually know something about it. We do not know its population caps, we do not know how it will play, we do not know if the map will even be enjoyable, and we have no idea when it is coming.

Asking players to give up the PvP experience they currently enjoy for a completely hypothetical future product is unreasonable.

NovelliESO wrote: »

It literally did happen but you can continue to act as if it didn't. Apparently that's your whole reason to be on the forums anyway, just spread misinformation.