Why still no Hand-To-Hand?

Heydan_Seegil · June 30

With all the changes to classes and skills why don't we have Hand-to-Hand or martial arts weapons? They discuss unarmed combat in game and we have Kata (not sure how it is spelt) emotes in game but we cannot beat people up with our fist/claws? They even have the animations in already from all the unarmed NPCs who claw and punch. I just don't get it. Am I missing something that makes it impossible to add fistacuffs?

LunaFlora · June 30

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8448388#Comment_8448388

What about new classes, new skill lines, new weapons, new races
The team is in the middle of the class refresh, so these are out of scope for time being. Once we get through a good portion of these, we can get back to working on items like this. But they are things we would like to get to in the next few years.

^ a quote from ZOS_Kevin about new weapons in the future, posting it as Unarmed or Hand-to-hand would likely be a weapon skill line

Heydan_Seegil · June 30

Nice, hopefully we get spears and whips too!

thechalkdust · June 30

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

Nice, hopefully we get spears and whips too!

New weapons are a massive problem due to the requirement to create new motif styles. There are only five new weapons that could be introduced to the game without requiring an unmanageable TON of new artwork:

Hand-to-Hand - Would work best alongside a new Monk class with a "Concealed Quarterstaff" skill line.

Alteration, Illusion, and Conjuration Staves - These could all use the existing staff motifs. The Alteration Staff could be paired with a shield for tanks (an earlier bug allowed you to preview Staff + Shield and it looked awesome).

1H&Focus (Spellsword) - This would work with a main-hand weapon + Focus (new jewelry item) in the off-hand Shield slot. For mag melee DPS. (Technically this would open the door to Dual Focus as a sixth new weapon option, but idk if devs would like that. It was traditionally possible in past Elder Scrolls, though.)

Spear and whip fall in the category that would require a lot of new artwork. ZOS will almost certainly never invest the resources into doing that. I'd rather see a stamina morph of DK whip, personally.

Heydan_Seegil · June 30

I would love a one handed sword like a rapier or something or yes a sword and focus.

Kalthea · July 1

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

Nice, hopefully we get spears and whips too!

Whips have never been a staple in any Elder Scrolls game, but the spears are a maybe considering Templar has an entire skill line dedicated to spears. We need to consider the development side of things on top of the setting for the game. To that front:

I made a post a while back talking about splitting the destruction staves into their own Element skill lines. Then you could change the "Destruction Staves" skill line over to simply "Scool: Destruction". Then you could use your bare hand for the Destruction skill line, meaning you wouldn't need to add in new skins, and as stated above the Staves just need to use Staff skins. This would also allow them to make a couple morphs for each staff to give them their own Niche. Debuffs, team buffs, tanking, etc.

Then you can add in a 1Hand+Magick School weapon set. The off-hand would use the "School: Destruction" skills, and a couple 1Hand skills from the Dual Wield and 1H+Shield skill lines.

Then after that, they can add in an Unarmed skill line, again using no skins to save on art assets, would just need to make a "Handwraps" item to act as a placeholder for weapon sets.

Then you can add in other Schools of Magick and staves. This would broaden what players have to fiddle with on a 1H+School setup.

Heydan_Seegil · July 2

Kalthea wrote: »

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

Nice, hopefully we get spears and whips too!

Whips have never been a staple in any Elder Scrolls game, but the spears are a maybe considering Templar has an entire skill line dedicated to spears. We need to consider the development side of things on top of the setting for the game. To that front:

I made a post a while back talking about splitting the destruction staves into their own Element skill lines. Then you could change the "Destruction Staves" skill line over to simply "Scool: Destruction". Then you could use your bare hand for the Destruction skill line, meaning you wouldn't need to add in new skins, and as stated above the Staves just need to use Staff skins. This would also allow them to make a couple morphs for each staff to give them their own Niche. Debuffs, team buffs, tanking, etc.

Then you can add in a 1Hand+Magick School weapon set. The off-hand would use the "School: Destruction" skills, and a couple 1Hand skills from the Dual Wield and 1H+Shield skill lines.

Then after that, they can add in an Unarmed skill line, again using no skins to save on art assets, would just need to make a "Handwraps" item to act as a placeholder for weapon sets.

Then you can add in other Schools of Magick and staves. This would broaden what players have to fiddle with on a 1H+School setup.

Yeah, I know whips have never been a thing but it would be cool if they were.

IZZEFlameLash · July 3

It's either going to be so overpowered that everyone and their grannies start using it while calling it broken until it is nerfed to uselessness or so underpowered that no one uses it.

PrinceShroob · July 3

1. Given the way itemization works in this game, you can't have no weapon equipped because it's basically shooting yourself in the foot--your Weapon and Spell Damage is partially based on the damage of your equipped weapon, and that's two fewer slots for item sets.

The most realistic implementation of martial arts would be a Monk class where the skill animations visually hide your equipped weapon, similar to certain Necromancer animations.

2. All new weapons present problems for motifs and set collections--they'd need to create new art assets for over one hundred existing motifs for new weapons, and as all sets drop in all weapons unless the set literally cannot function with certain weapon types equipped (for example, the Robes of Destruction Mastery set requires that you have a Destruction staff equipped, and consequently, it only drops Destruction staves). This would retroactively un-complete people's set collections, making reconstructing exist sets more expensive--potentially significantly, depending on how many new weapons are introduced.

You see the people who are complaining about needing to farm Infinite Archive sets despite those being two years old, yes? You want more of that and its accompanying complaining?

3. Mythic items could be introduced that require you to have no weapon equipped or which would take the form of a single one-handed weapon and require that your off hand be empty; those are far more workable solutions to requests for Hand to Hand skill lines or One Hand and Rune.

thechalkdust · July 3

PrinceShroob wrote: »

1. Given the way itemization works in this game, you can't have no weapon equipped because it's basically shooting yourself in the foot--your Weapon and Spell Damage is partially based on the damage of your equipped weapon, and that's two fewer slots for item sets.

Easy to fix. A passive in the skill line could make gloves count as 2/3 items, when Unarmed. Or make rings count twice. They could also introduce fist weapons, but I dislike that option personally.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

The most realistic implementation of martial arts would be a Monk class where the skill animations visually hide your equipped weapon, similar to certain Necromancer animations.

The best implementation is a Hand-to-Hand weapon line plus separate Monk class.

They need each other. Neither one would be a satisfying addition to the game without the other.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

2. All new weapons present problems for motifs and set collections--they'd need to create new art assets for over one hundred existing motifs for new weapons

Not all. There are several options that require no new motifs, which I listed above. These are the only new weapons that devs should really consider: 1) Unarmed, obviously. 2) Other staves. 3) Spellsword (1H&Focus, with a new jewelry weapon in the offhand shield slot)

Set collections are curated from many sources. If you've got the other stuff, the new weapon would be your next drop.

Heydan_Seegil · July 3

thechalkdust wrote: »

PrinceShroob wrote: »

1. Given the way itemization works in this game, you can't have no weapon equipped because it's basically shooting yourself in the foot--your Weapon and Spell Damage is partially based on the damage of your equipped weapon, and that's two fewer slots for item sets.

Easy to fix. A passive in the skill line could make gloves count as 2/3 items, when Unarmed. Or make rings count twice. They could also introduce fist weapons, but I dislike that option personally.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

The most realistic implementation of martial arts would be a Monk class where the skill animations visually hide your equipped weapon, similar to certain Necromancer animations.

The best implementation is a Hand-to-Hand weapon line plus separate Monk class.

They need each other. Neither one would be a satisfying addition to the game without the other.

PrinceShroob wrote: »

2. All new weapons present problems for motifs and set collections--they'd need to create new art assets for over one hundred existing motifs for new weapons

Not all. There are several options that require no new motifs, which I listed above. These are the only new weapons that devs should really consider: 1) Unarmed, obviously. 2) Other staves. 3) Spellsword (1H&Focus, with a new jewelry weapon in the offhand shield slot)

Set collections are curated from many sources. If you've got the other stuff, the new weapon would be your next drop.

I think a Monk class would be cool but I don't think it would be needed for Hand-To-Hand as a weapon type. There are brawlers who might just punch in-between casting and then there are martial artist who elevates punching with Ki or whatever. Idk I could see them being two separate things but working very well together naturally like a Sorc and staff or Nightblade and daggers. The class and weapon can stand alone but they complement each other nicely.

Edit: Imagine using a two-handee sword but having the monk class so you can proc an elbow or something between slices or being a sorcerer with unarmed weapon skill so you kick someone tripping them and then cast fire in their face burning them on the ground.

Kalthea · July 4

Heydan_Seegil wrote: »

I think a Monk class would be cool but I don't think it would be needed for Hand-To-Hand as a weapon type. There are brawlers who might just punch in-between casting and then there are martial artist who elevates punching with Ki or whatever. Idk I could see them being two separate things but working very well together naturally like a Sorc and staff or Nightblade and daggers. The class and weapon can stand alone but they complement each other nicely.

Edit: Imagine using a two-handee sword but having the monk class so you can proc an elbow or something between slices or being a sorcerer with unarmed weapon skill so you kick someone tripping them and then cast fire in their face burning them on the ground.

Honestly not the worst idea for a class, it could be the introduction of the Sword Singers as an actual Class, with Sai Sahan attempting to resurrect the old order.

Gagoimaliu · July 4

Hand-to-Hand Weapon Skill would be really cool, especially if they could somehow bring back hand magic from Skyrim so you you can cast fireballs and shoot lightning from your hands like with staves

They could even take inspiration from real weapons for the skill if they HAD to include a weapon, so something like brass knuckles, push daggers or the Roman cestus, imagine Dragonknight with brass knuckles, it would be so cool.

Though, if I was to choose a new weapon skill to add to the game, I would probably add 1H first, it seems easiest to me, it would fulfill I assume many peoples dreams of playing as a swashbuckler or a rogue with only a sword at your hip.