step 1. fix the base damage on 2handers. heavy attacks are far less than bow ( point blank range) i'll be testing this as soon as the servers come back online
step 2. heavy weapons. bleed from axe doesnt stack with bleed from heavy. armor penetration from blunt either doesnt stack with sharpened/crushing/or does nothing.
step 3. uppercut. at the very least cast time needs to be halved. currently its fun for running around using bears as golf balls. but thats about it.
step 4. executioner. double base damage and start scaling at 50% health.
step 5. momentum. change to toggle. more damage from light/heavy attacks and 2h feats in exchange for reduced stam regen or a stam drain ( same thing differnt method)

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

test setup.
me lvl 38 no points spent in anything other than bow/2hander
all weapons white lvl 38 crafted. no traits
bow skills longshot 2, accuracy 2, ranger2, hawkeye 1
2hander skills, forceful 2, heavy 2, balance2, arcane 1
fighting lvl 41 saber cats in the rift at point blank range
damage for heavy attacks
bow heavy attack damage 205 at point blank, 222 at max distance
dual wield (daggers) 87+70 = 157
dagger+sheild = 144
greatsword = 194
maul = 189

so other than bows having more damage it looks like its just a skill issue.

What? The skill you specced into and leveled up did more damage than the skills you didn't level up. That proves nothing.

Erock25 wrote: »

Jeremy_gelber_ESO wrote: »

test setup.
me lvl 38 no points spent in anything other than bow/2hander
all weapons white lvl 38 crafted. no traits
bow skills longshot 2, accuracy 2, ranger2, hawkeye 1
2hander skills, forceful 2, heavy 2, balance2, arcane 1
fighting lvl 41 saber cats in the rift at point blank range
damage for heavy attacks
bow heavy attack damage 205 at point blank, 222 at max distance
dual wield (daggers) 87+70 = 157
dagger+sheild = 144
greatsword = 194
maul = 189

so other than bows having more damage it looks like its just a skill issue.

What? The skill you specced into and leveled up did more damage than the skills you didn't level up. That proves nothing.

i was looking to see if a theory i had was correct. it was not. other than bow doing more damage than 2hander ( at point blank range so the passives dont kick in) 2hander heavy attacks seem to be ok with 5% gains for swords and a slight gain for maul over axe ( not including the bleed) the heavy weapons passive seems to be working correctly.

i still have no idea why a 73 dmg bow hits harder than a 86 damage maul at point blank range.

i still think uppercut needs to be faster
i still think momentum is useless as it is now.
i still think bleeds need to stack

and based on the numbers further down. i think the sharpened trait isnt working.

further testing with various weapons and skills leads me to believe that armor mitigates at a rate of 1 damage per 20 armor. and that ever mob in the rift has approximately 350ish armor.

meaning 2/2 heavy weapons with a maul will always return 4 extra damage. and sharpened returns less than 1 damage.

meaning at least for pve. get a sword with precise. everything else is less effective

tested on mammoths, giants, trolls, saber cats, zombies, and armored humans. 150 damage with base dagger, 158 with 170 armor debuff proc. 157 with puncture. 162 with both proc and puncture. 1 point spent in shield for puncture. damage only changed when they blocked or i critted. or they got below 20% health ( appears to set the npc's armor to 0 as procs and puncture made no difference after that)


can not verify pvp effectiveness of sharpened as noone seems to want to stand still long enough for me to beat them about the head with various weapons.

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

I like uppercut, its a good solo skill. not all that useful in group related stuff (though there are situations where it is)

I would rather keep uppercut and just expand all weapon skills with more additions of skills. (and 2hand really needs it) and rework some passives and just how 2hand works by default.

I would rather have cleave be buffed to be the real only spammable abilitiy. For having any other skill to be spammable by a two hand doesnt really make much sense. You simply cant swing a two handed anything that fast and repeatedly. it kind of goes against the concept of two hand. Spam attacking with a two hand hammer just sounds ridiculous. two hands are slow in concept, but what is really lacking is the "UMPH" of the skills. Uppercut hits hard as a single target ability, and thats what I like.

Reverse Slash hits hard as an execute (but only an execute) but it really should hit just a bit harder which increasing the base damage it should do by a considerable amount (which in turn would increase the damage of its execute threshold)

2hand is the most stamina reliant weapon tree. And it uses up huge chunks of stamina at a time. (where the others uses up tiny portions) which makes sense for the weapon. but that doesnt relate to the damage it actually dishes out. It has some build up for its attacks, it should. But that build up should not be hitting only slightly harder than one hands and bows.

Right now I feel like the 2hand doesnt have any real identity. Some say it is an aoe based tree which isnt true, because dual wield,bow and destruction staff can do the exact same 2hand does. Its a single target based tree, but everything in the game can do single target. When people think of two hand, you would think that 2hands hurt. they hit hard. But if someone was to hit you with a heavy attack of a two hand, and a heavy attack of a one hand or dual wield without even looking at numbers. it would feel the same nearly. 2hands only thing is that it has build up for its attacks but hits slightly harder (and in some cases less) than other weapon skills. It doesnt really have no identity besides "Im holding a big weapon". The fact it can aoe, it can do damage and it has utility should not be in discussion as thats its sole meaning, what it really should be is that you have the choice of turning that tree into that very thing if thats what you want to focus on. Right now you really cant. You want to focus on aoe, place in cleave in its morph form sure, but its not gonna make much difference from just using cleave normally or any other aoe stamina based ability.

Which goes to the post I mentioned about how to improve the tree as a whole. It needs its passives to be reworked so people can spend thier skill points to using 2hands in how they want. (and all weapons skills in my opinion) and how they want to focus on. Which would require reworking passives, adding a couple new abilities and reworking the mechanics of the base weapon. (applying the axe=bleeds and mace = ingore armor by default with passives that increase and scales these effects). 2hand is an expensive stamina resource tree, and the return for this isnt all that great in addition to the above. There isnt enough distinction between the other weapon skill lines and there needs to be. Theres more distinction in the classes than there is for the skill lines and how you build your character, and thats kind of backwards for an elder scrolls game, online or not.

My previous post in how I feel 2hand should be improved.

I think there should be a passive that increases the base damage of 2h weapons that is upgradable. The passive effects to 2hands should all be on them by default. (mace crushes armor, axe bleeds, sword slight crit increase since the damage bonus passive would be in its own passive now and through all 2hand weapons)

The current passive should instead increase these effects greater for the different 2 hand weapons. So if you wish to specialize in a certain weapon you can.
(the current passive should also morph depending on the weapon you use. It would make it more complicated. But it would make the selection of the 2hands more deeper, the same should be done with one handers in my opinion. A person who is used to using a mace should not be able to use a two handed sword with the exact same efficiency if he/she's never held one. Destruction staffs have kind of a similar system to this already just implemented differently)

Cleave needs a significant damage bonus to its initial hit. the bleed needs a faster tick with the damage it has now, or a longer tick with more damage.

Charge is fine to me.

Momentum can stay the same (since it gets an inherent boost from the 2h damage passive when its upgraded)

Uppercut is fine.

The splash damage passive should have a more significant increase in the damage it spreads.

Reverse Slash can stay the same for the same reason as Momentum.

Battle Rush is fine

In addition the secondary effects of the weapons should scale with the level of the player the same way all the existing base damage of weapons do. (and all bleeds for that matter).

With the introduction of the base damage passive addition, it should in turn make all 2 handed abilities stamina requirment increase by a certain % with each addition. So one can have a bit of choice for more damage with more stamina in thier abilities or use abilities without the passive base damage increase skill.

(so in short, 2 hands will take a bit longer to master with the changes, much longer than the one handed weapons (since if you implement the passive for each individual weapon, you can potentially double the training exp for that passive by dual wielding the same weapon) but they will be pretty powerful, stronger than one handed stuff for sure, but slower. But when they swing, it hurts. Like a two hander should..)

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

What are your reasons for this belief? Is this due to group buffs/debuffs or should this be the dps while solo as well?

I am using 3 weapon jewelry pieces, rally, igneous weapons, 7 medium armor pieces with the shadow stone (thief is broken). OC in stamina, almost OC in magic, with a purple crit V10 2 handed sword. My weapon damage is 214ish while rally is ticking.

I am using a heavy/light/skill combo which is the fastest and most efficient combo I know of. It lowers the animation for all 3 hits. I am using 3 skills that I slip into this combo. Searing strike (which I only use to keep up the dot) Flame Lash which I use till half health, and executioner which I use after half health. I'm typically getting ~470 sustained DPS on mammoths. I think I could get this to 500-510 with a few changes that are currently out of my reach but that is the most I can anticipate. I've been trying to squeeze everything I can out of it, I just can't foresee anything that would increase that dps to 700.

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

If the best two handed can manage is 700dps aoe, thats a PRIME reason it's utterly broken and needs to be severely buffed.

Destro staff can manage 3000+ sustained aoe dps. And I've seen up to 5800 burst. 6500+ burst is likely even possible.

Even if you meant single target, 700 is still quite bad. 1k+ is where any decent endgame destro dragonknight should sit, without breaking as sweat in basic gear.

Two handed is so far behind its not even funny.

Axer wrote: »

steinernein wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Uppercut morph to wrecking blow does not add 40+ extra damage to the next attack as stated in tooltip. Use recount add-on and see the damage is exactly the same both ways (normal swing and after wrecking blow swing)

This is plain silly imo
Fix the broken stuff before you add anything

It does.

On that note, I am going to wager that with a proper set up you can probably manage 700+ DPS sustained with a 2-Hander for dungeons at the very least.

If the best two handed can manage is 700dps aoe, thats a PRIME reason it's utterly broken and needs to be severely buffed.

Destro staff can manage 3000+ sustained aoe dps. And I've seen up to 5800 burst. 6500+ burst is likely even possible.

Even if you meant single target, 700 is still quite bad. 1k+ is where any decent endgame destro dragonknight should sit, without breaking as sweat in basic gear.

Two handed is so far behind its not even funny.

1k destro dk? lmao

Dks longest range damage spell is 8 meters.....So I assume the DK would be getting all that dmg from staff only skills....(assuming ur using a range weapon at......range). I dunno though maybe you can spam impulse for 1k+ dps single target!

I doubt you have ever ran with that specific set up, and like I said, on paper you should be able to sustain it with pot usage and it may possibly require you to run as a red guard.

As for the rotation it takes anywhere from 1.6-2 depending on your execution/latency. Either way, you should be doing more than 600 DPS after you factor in crits even with ability usage.

steinernein wrote: »

[
I'd like to see parses and other evidence of a destro knight busting out 1k+ consistently over the duration of two minutes or more; most people with those builds are going anywhere from 700 to 900 which includes using the dragon standard.

Two minutes or more?

lol. The hardest VR dungeon fights in the game my guild always ends in under 2 minutes, almost always under 90 seconds too. Nothing in the game has enough hp for that atm. And the way mana works, you expend it in 7-15 seconds tops anyways, so any sustained is fully fleshed out in a 30 second fight tops. Changes past that are only due to special boss mechancis, that shouldnt affect class/weapon skill balance in differnet ways to any large degree.

And actually Im a TANK templar and I can very frequently pull off 800-900 single target dps. 1k is a joke for our best DKs. They are insanely ahead.

Gear does have a big impact. I personally use the Soulshine set (+20% spell damage - tho its heavy armor, so not ideal for dps'ers), we have a healer with the 5 piece wormcult (-8% spell cost for whole grp) and our dps run things like willows path (5% spellcrit) magnus (5% free spells) and seducer (-3% costs), with a few of us close to finishing the pact set (+10% spell crit). With all of that combined, yea DPS in that range is not at all difficult for DKs.

Don't have any screenshots of his single target, but yea I have some of his AOE at 5800. So doing 1/5th of that in single is not exactly gonna surprise me.

SuperScrubby wrote: »

It's sad when I see 1h weapons that have slightly less damage than my 2H weapon. It really does need a buff because it's got some pretty low dps too.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/light-attacks-vs-heavy-and-igneous-weapons/

If you look at the weapon damage/character damage the 2H is a lot higher than the other weapons but does pretty abysmal damage. The skills are somewhat lackluster especially uppercut the 1 sec cast feels longer than 1 second to actually connect. That with the length it takes to actually execute a heavy attack makes it pretty lame.

But I would have to agree with the OP, that it definitely feels underwhelming. I'm lvling up bow for long range and then I'm going to test out DW.

You're TOTALLY misunderstanding that test, that test shows the difference between light and heavy attacks on all different weapon types, not as a comparison between weapon types, it was NOT carried out with the same quality of levels. The current last post in the thread even points that out.

Falmer wrote: »

You can't simply compare DPS across the weapon types, they do different things.

The damage shield I get off cleave, which can be pretty much spammed means 100 less health damage for a handful of stamina points, of which I always have plenty of.

The uppercut means single targets don't have much of a shot.

Dismissing 2 handed just because it doesn't have a higher damage output is really missing the whole concept behind many of its abilities.

Yes you can compare the DPS across weapon types. Because it is only by comparison you can finally see the drawbacks and advantages of each one.

With two handed you:
1. have less damage than dw (offhand gives you more weapon damage than two handers and you have double enchants adding to damage). The lack of dedicated 2h enchants furthermore increases the damage gap.
2. can't put down another 3 piece setbonus (lacking offhand)
3. Lack raidwide utilities. (nothing you do will add a debuff to the enemy that other styles don't add, and nothing you do adds benefits to allies).
4. inferior aoe damage to just about anything (bow and dw is better on this territory).
5. inferior passives that buff damage further (dualwield passives are flat out better)
6. 2h have no good stamina dumps (execute vs flying blade is no contest to which is better).


2h is not competitive in pve or pvp. Period.