Three-Sided Deathmatch

MRAW · June 2

Cooperharley wrote: »

I would like to see three-sided Deathmatch return as a permanent option, or at least as a regular scheduled queue.

I do not think 4v4v4 is perfect, and I do not think it magically solves matchmaking or combat balance. Third-partying is real, and some objective modes have their own problems. But for Deathmatch specifically, three teams often creates a healthier match than a lopsided two-team game.

In 8v8, when one side is clearly stronger, the match can feel decided almost immediately. The weaker team gets farmed, spawncamped, or gives up, and there is no meaningful second-place goal. In 4v4v4, the third team at least creates pressure on the leader, gives weaker players more chances to reposition, and makes the match less predictable.

That matters a lot when the BG population is not large enough for perfect matchmaking. If the matchmaker cannot reliably create two equal teams, then a three-team format can soften the damage by giving the match more moving parts.

I would not remove two-sided BGs for people who prefer that format. But I do think solo players should have access to a 4v4v4 Deathmatch queue. Keep the objective modes separate and tune them individually, because Chaosball, Relic, Domination, and Crazy King all have different problems. But Deathmatch is the mode where three-sided play makes the strongest case.

So my vote would be: keep two-sided for players who want a more direct competitive format, bring back three-sided Deathmatch for players who found it more fun and less predetermined, and keep working on matchmaking/combat balance either way.

This, plus the second team would also be rewarded with the daily rewards which could lead to more players, because it’s a semi- reliable source of xp and transmutes.

I remember when I was new, I used a tank with cowards set and would simply run from flag to flag, 0 damage but hard to kill, and often scored the most medals. Might not have to do much with PvP though but was fun. Only deathmatches were bad. This possible to avoid fighting was taken away with the two team format.

L_Nici · June 3

Its pretty easy to see what kind is better by the number of players taking part.

We had two 3 sided BG Events this year and both times you instantly got into one, never waited more than one minute on a BG that did not consist of the same 16 people just mixed differently. To be fair the Domination one was better as people did not exploit Shattered Path yet, still I had more fun with the 3 sided relic hunt too than I ever did with any 2 sided BG. 2 sided BGs get decided by which team wipes first, because then it just gets camped at spawn.

LittleLionLeone · June 4

Another day, another random screenshot post.

Haki_7 · June 5

@L_Nici wrote:

Its pretty easy to see what kind is better by the number of players taking part.

We had two 3 sided BG Events this year and both times you instantly got into one, never waited more than one minute on a BG that did not consist of the same 16 people just mixed differently. To be fair the Domination one was better as people did not exploit Shattered Path yet, still I had more fun with the 3 sided relic hunt too than I ever did with any 2 sided BG. 2 sided BGs get decided by which team wipes first, because then it just gets camped at spawn.

One thing I noticed about the relic event was how often every team ended up holding each other's relics without being able to deliver. Didn't that used to be extremely rare?

[snip]

Moonspawn · June 5

Haki_7 wrote: »

@L_Nici wrote:

Its pretty easy to see what kind is better by the number of players taking part.

We had two 3 sided BG Events this year and both times you instantly got into one, never waited more than one minute on a BG that did not consist of the same 16 people just mixed differently. To be fair the Domination one was better as people did not exploit Shattered Path yet, still I had more fun with the 3 sided relic hunt too than I ever did with any 2 sided BG. 2 sided BGs get decided by which team wipes first, because then it just gets camped at spawn.

One thing I noticed about the relic event was how often every team ended up holding each other's relics without being able to deliver. Didn't that used to be extremely rare?

Are you referring to the situation below?

heimdall14_9 · June 6

Haki_7 wrote: »

@L_Nici wrote:

Its pretty easy to see what kind is better by the number of players taking part.

We had two 3 sided BG Events this year and both times you instantly got into one, never waited more than one minute on a BG that did not consist of the same 16 people just mixed differently. To be fair the Domination one was better as people did not exploit Shattered Path yet, still I had more fun with the 3 sided relic hunt too than I ever did with any 2 sided BG. 2 sided BGs get decided by which team wipes first, because then it just gets camped at spawn.

One thing I noticed about the relic event was how often every team ended up holding each other's relics without being able to deliver. Didn't that used to be extremely rare?

it really seemed it was showcased more as away to fight having 4v4v4 return than it ever has been in 85% of my match-ups can i remember there being a player or even two guarding relic everyone all went after different colors and held onto them while playing out TDM even letting relic spawn back not pick it back up just fight not doing adjective just holding each other from being able to score

heimdall14_9 · June 6

we as players can point out the bad in both 4v4 and 4v4v4 but over all being honest 4v4 has more down sides than 4v4v4 as lets me 100% real ESO aint an competitive game ( look at all the add-ons that control the game ) so the whole 4v4 is more competitive argument is out unless we want to talk about how to make ESO competitive and thats a whole different post then are 4v4v4 GBs more fun and active than 4v4 BGs while at the same time an healthier system , better out-comes, more choices on how to win or come back if down , less spawn camping , more overall players being cycled in Q , 4v4v4 just gives more meaning to BGs being an battle not just a 1 sided steamroll

Moonspawn · June 8

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Maitsukas wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches?

It simply wasn't possible to do this when BGs were 3-sided. Not in this quantity. Why do you think that is?

I got my answer.

It is the only answer so far. Just like imPDA 's explanation about matchmaking is the only one that fits with everything we've seen until this point:

imPDA wrote: »

If this system works as described, it does 2 things:
1) it tries to make as many people of the same MMR as possible into one game
2) it tries to make teams as equal MMR-wise as possible

So, two results of Elo are:
1) if number of players is big, it can successfully pick 16 players of the same MMR A+-a (like, 1500+-100 for example). It is possible in big MOBA games.
2) if number of players is not that big, it can pick any players to make groups look equal. Balancer can pick 6 "1500 MMR" players, one "200 MMR" player and one "2800 MMR" player, so team will be balanced at 1500. Another team can have all "1500 MMR" players.

You usually see result 2, I suppose, because from my feeling, there are not many players in PvP. If so, it is hard to make two equal groups out of equal players, so it picks some overskilled players and team them with low MMR players, and another team can have the same situation, that is why you usually see 2-4 players with positive KD and some damage, big score, and all other players are constantly dead, 0 damage, 0 score.

It is very rough estimation, and it will not be true in many cases, but you can estimate, that average winrate of you team is near 50%. If your winrate is 80%, winrates of 6 other players are 45 55 45 55 45 55, then winrate of last player should be close to 20% Once again, it is very rough estimation.

I'd like to examine the context of this explanation. Can you please link the source?

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 8

I feel like we have had this topic kicked around a lot over the years but 3 teams is definitely better than 2. Even then, you're still going to have ball groups and things but it levels they playing field some. How do we eliminate ball groups. There are a lot of different theories. I really just wish they'd limit grouping to duos and have all 3 team BGs. Or even just eliminate grouping for BG period. Probably not going to happen but I think more people would come back to and play BG if it were so.

Haki_7 · June 8

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

@Moonspawn
Regarding the 4 flaws of 2-sided:`
1. What has changed about positioning and target selection? You still want to try and focus down on those that seem like they take more damage than the rest, CC healers, layer burst, rushdown squishies or backline archers while being sure to be mindful of where you're at so as to not get swarmed and focused (unless built for it).

I've been thinking for a while now that the first flaw should be rewritten.

''1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.''

[snip]

Moonspawn · June 8

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

@Moonspawn
Regarding the 4 flaws of 2-sided:`
1. What has changed about positioning and target selection? You still want to try and focus down on those that seem like they take more damage than the rest, CC healers, layer burst, rushdown squishies or backline archers while being sure to be mindful of where you're at so as to not get swarmed and focused (unless built for it).

I've been thinking for a while now that the first flaw should be rewritten.

''1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.''

Rewritten how?

And why?

LittleLionLeone · June 10

*rubs temples*

Darkmage1337 · June 10

I currently believe the best solution for BGs would be this:

3-sided (solo or grouped), unranked, and top-menu option.
2-sided (solo or grouped), ranked, and bottom-menu option.

I enjoy both variations and all maps/modes in each of them.
BUT, I believe the best/most-fun was with the 3-sided format.

Both formats can coexist with the ESO BG PvP community.
It is simple. Competitive-play? 2-sided. Casual-play? 3-sided.
So, remove the current casual 2-sided and bring back 3-sided.

NxJoeyD · June 10

The issue with BGs aren’t whether or not it’s a 3 team layout or a 4 team layout.

One of the flaws people have with purporting a 3 team layout is the idea that a 3rd team will inherently “breakup” any lopsided two way imbalance. That assumption is very flawed.

There’s nothing to prevent a Strong v Strong v Weak scenario and when that happens there’s no guarantee that Strong team #1 is going to save or in some way deliver some level of fairness for the weaker team.

The issues with BG are multiple, but, IMO the 3 biggest issues are:

1) Server latency / buffer post U50 (this got way worse)

2) Matchmaking

3) Fundamental mechanics.

The latency or lack of registration after the U50 update is horrible. This really affects the landscape of BGs and how various skills and builds perform in real time.

Matchmaking has been a very real issue for some time. No amount of changing a game modes headcount is going to offset bad matchmaking logic. That would be like trying to patch a leaking pipe with mud; it’s not the correct solution. It might seem like it would work out but it really doesn’t.

As for mechanics, well, that’s been a thing for a while too. Mastery passives did change the scope so to speak in terms of capability but what those Mastery passives did change didn’t necessarily deliver the precise mechanics or enhancements to a class to make them competitive against subclassed builds. In some cases they did, but in many others they didn’t. With subclassing being an element of PvP combat there’s a very real question as to whether certain mechanics have a place in combat anymore, or, if they do; to what extent.

If we’re going to have a server side response that’s questionable then mechanics need reflect that in both design and scale. Part of that comes from class refresh and (hopefully) a world & weapon refresh as well.

Also, everyone needs to bear in mind that as class refreshes occur there is going to be a growing amount of INCREASED imbalance in PvP. This is due to the growing nature of skill changes that go live with each patch. In this case we see DK and WW as high power builds; DK arguably being the strongest pure class but subclassing still residing at the top.

That means everyone who is NOT either: a WW, Pure DK, or some variant of the subclassed meta, then you’re going to be down on power until your class refresh. Whether or not Mastery passives elevate your build or not is questionable but for most they’re not going to see the pure power that resides at the top of PvP potential.

Because think about it, if that were the case then the Devs would be done and no further work would be needed as everyone would have comparable power; but that’s not the reality.

All of this impacts BGs, regardless of team size.

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

gariondavey · June 10

Bring back permanent 4v4v4 deathmatch only queue please

Daoin · June 12

pvp in general in eso is a joke...its a pve game...see what your up against in battlegrounds and whos playing...change your char to syuit....cyro ? well just change side if your losing

Daoin · June 12

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The issue with BGs aren’t whether or not it’s a 3 team layout or a 4 team layout.

One of the flaws people have with purporting a 3 team layout is the idea that a 3rd team will inherently “breakup” any lopsided two way imbalance. That assumption is very flawed.

There’s nothing to prevent a Strong v Strong v Weak scenario and when that happens there’s no guarantee that Strong team #1 is going to save or in some way deliver some level of fairness for the weaker team.

The issues with BG are multiple, but, IMO the 3 biggest issues are:

1) Server latency / buffer post U50 (this got way worse)

2) Matchmaking

3) Fundamental mechanics.

The latency or lack of registration after the U50 update is horrible. This really affects the landscape of BGs and how various skills and builds perform in real time.

Matchmaking has been a very real issue for some time. No amount of changing a game modes headcount is going to offset bad matchmaking logic. That would be like trying to patch a leaking pipe with mud; it’s not the correct solution. It might seem like it would work out but it really doesn’t.

As for mechanics, well, that’s been a thing for a while too. Mastery passives did change the scope so to speak in terms of capability but what those Mastery passives did change didn’t necessarily deliver the precise mechanics or enhancements to a class to make them competitive against subclassed builds. In some cases they did, but in many others they didn’t. With subclassing being an element of PvP combat there’s a very real question as to whether certain mechanics have a place in combat anymore, or, if they do; to what extent.

If we’re going to have a server side response that’s questionable then mechanics need reflect that in both design and scale. Part of that comes from class refresh and (hopefully) a world & weapon refresh as well.

Also, everyone needs to bear in mind that as class refreshes occur there is going to be a growing amount of INCREASED imbalance in PvP. This is due to the growing nature of skill changes that go live with each patch. In this case we see DK and WW as high power builds; DK arguably being the strongest pure class but subclassing still residing at the top.

That means everyone who is NOT either: a WW, Pure DK, or some variant of the subclassed meta, then you’re going to be down on power until your class refresh. Whether or not Mastery passives elevate your build or not is questionable but for most they’re not going to see the pure power that resides at the top of PvP potential.

Because think about it, if that were the case then the Devs would be done and no further work would be needed as everyone would have comparable power; but that’s not the reality.

All of this impacts BGs, regardless of team size.

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

with such a small pvp community i would think rather than go for any big scale changes in the future ask them to go back to basics first

Daoin · June 12

make it so pve players and pvp players cant mix in the same cyro maps or simply just seperate the instances to start by giving an option...quests or pvp

Daoin · June 12

and battlegrounds ? defo back to basics there

NxJoeyD · June 12

Daoin wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

The issue with BGs aren’t whether or not it’s a 3 team layout or a 4 team layout.

One of the flaws people have with purporting a 3 team layout is the idea that a 3rd team will inherently “breakup” any lopsided two way imbalance. That assumption is very flawed.

There’s nothing to prevent a Strong v Strong v Weak scenario and when that happens there’s no guarantee that Strong team #1 is going to save or in some way deliver some level of fairness for the weaker team.

The issues with BG are multiple, but, IMO the 3 biggest issues are:

1) Server latency / buffer post U50 (this got way worse)

2) Matchmaking

3) Fundamental mechanics.

The latency or lack of registration after the U50 update is horrible. This really affects the landscape of BGs and how various skills and builds perform in real time.

Matchmaking has been a very real issue for some time. No amount of changing a game modes headcount is going to offset bad matchmaking logic. That would be like trying to patch a leaking pipe with mud; it’s not the correct solution. It might seem like it would work out but it really doesn’t.

As for mechanics, well, that’s been a thing for a while too. Mastery passives did change the scope so to speak in terms of capability but what those Mastery passives did change didn’t necessarily deliver the precise mechanics or enhancements to a class to make them competitive against subclassed builds. In some cases they did, but in many others they didn’t. With subclassing being an element of PvP combat there’s a very real question as to whether certain mechanics have a place in combat anymore, or, if they do; to what extent.

If we’re going to have a server side response that’s questionable then mechanics need reflect that in both design and scale. Part of that comes from class refresh and (hopefully) a world & weapon refresh as well.

Also, everyone needs to bear in mind that as class refreshes occur there is going to be a growing amount of INCREASED imbalance in PvP. This is due to the growing nature of skill changes that go live with each patch. In this case we see DK and WW as high power builds; DK arguably being the strongest pure class but subclassing still residing at the top.

That means everyone who is NOT either: a WW, Pure DK, or some variant of the subclassed meta, then you’re going to be down on power until your class refresh. Whether or not Mastery passives elevate your build or not is questionable but for most they’re not going to see the pure power that resides at the top of PvP potential.

Because think about it, if that were the case then the Devs would be done and no further work would be needed as everyone would have comparable power; but that’s not the reality.

All of this impacts BGs, regardless of team size.

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

with such a small pvp community i would think rather than go for any big scale changes in the future ask them to go back to basics first

Server integrity, matchmaking, and fundamental core combat mechanics are pretty much the basics. Without those no other aspects really matter. You could have 5 team BGs but if none of those 3 things are solid then it won’t matter.

Demonwolff · June 13

Daoin wrote: »

pvp in general in eso is a joke...its a pve game...see what your up against in battlegrounds and whos playing...change your char to syuit....cyro ? well just change side if your losing

ESO was actually marketed as a PVP game.

Haki_7 · June 13

@NxJoeyD wrote:

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

Neither is having a ball carrier on Angavar spam either Warden or DKs wings and just persistently running around corners. With the current sever registration lag it means that more than half the efforts to try and stop the ball carrier or CC them with a non immune skill go unapplied and it turns into just 10 minutes of ring-around-the-rosie … I can’t speak for everyone but that got old back in Pre-k so I definitely am not looking to play that now.

These last two paragraphs seem to be referring to the critical flaw of 3-sided that encompasses the specific problems that plagued each of the gamemodes. For Chaosball we have the following:

PROBLEMS
x Ball carrier can move around the map fast enough to be almost impossible to catch.
x Players can take the ball to cheesy places, where they can't be damaged.

Aren't the proposed solutions enough?

[snip]

Moonspawn · June 13

NxJoeyD wrote: »

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

@NxJoeyD I'm sure ZOS could use help locating these map crevices and all the other places players use to cheese chaosballs.

NxJoeyD · June 13

Haki_7 wrote: »

Aren't the proposed solutions enough?

No. Because this issue isn't BG-wide. It's more that these particular maps aren't aligned well with this specific game mode.

The maps are fine for CTR / CK / DOM because the play mechanics for those games isn't map exploitable like CB is in this case. In 8v8 CB matches the maps don't have these cheese spots.

There's a difference between the fundamental issues with BG imbalances versus maps just not being appropriate for certain game modes.

In this case, CB should have it's own maps that align better with the mechanics of how that game works.

Udrath · June 14

3 teams is a lot better. 2-sided was nice at first but people just give up now after the first wipe.

Moonspawn · June 15

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

@NxJoeyD I'm sure ZOS could use help locating these map crevices and all the other places players use to cheese chaosballs.

That's a good idea. I'll see what I can do.

Sooner or later, someone will have to do it.

Moonspawn · June 16

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water! The maps are awful for this. The existing 3 team maps are fine for Relic or Domination / Crazy King but not CB! .. having someone grab the ball on Quarry and then duck into a map crevice, using it to avoid damage because the attacks won’t register through the gap in the wood is nobody’s idea of good combat. ..

@NxJoeyD I'm sure ZOS could use help locating these map crevices and all the other places players use to cheese chaosballs.

That's a good idea. I'll see what I can do.

Sooner or later, someone will have to do it.

Is it just me, or are people not cheesing chaosballs like they used to?

Not cheesing like they used to?

Moonspawn · June 17

Haki_7 wrote: »

@NxJoeyD wrote:

And as far as 3 team BGs go, I will say this Chaosball event is dog water!

Nearly 100% of my 8v8 cb matches are spent staring at ball carriers close to spawn. In 3-sided, I usually get unpredictable non-stop fighting concentrated on the ball.

It's how every chaosball match would be if the easily solvable critical flaws of 3-sided were ever adressed.

Haki_7 · June 18

@Darkmage1337 wrote:

I currently believe the best solution for BGs would be this:

3-sided (solo or grouped), unranked, and top-menu option.
2-sided (solo or grouped), ranked, and bottom-menu option.

I enjoy both variations and all maps/modes in each of them.
BUT, I believe the best/most-fun was with the 3-sided format.

Both formats can coexist with the ESO BG PvP community.
It is simple. Competitive-play? 2-sided. Casual-play? 3-sided.
So, remove the current casual 2-sided and bring back 3-sided.

Which one is the current casual 2-sided? 8v8?

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

@Moonspawn
Regarding the 4 flaws of 2-sided:`
1. What has changed about positioning and target selection? You still want to try and focus down on those that seem like they take more damage than the rest, CC healers, layer burst, rushdown squishies or backline archers while being sure to be mindful of where you're at so as to not get swarmed and focused (unless built for it).

I've been thinking for a while now that the first flaw should be rewritten.

''1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.''

Rewritten how?

And why?

The description of the first flaw makes it seem like the possibility of being sandwiched is the only factor that facilitates fights between BG regulars. The part about the target order going from 1-4, instead of 1-8, is just as important, but it's hidden at the bottom of the spoiler tab.

[snip]

Moonspawn · June 18

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Darkmage1337 wrote:

I currently believe the best solution for BGs would be this:

3-sided (solo or grouped), unranked, and top-menu option.
2-sided (solo or grouped), ranked, and bottom-menu option.

I enjoy both variations and all maps/modes in each of them.
BUT, I believe the best/most-fun was with the 3-sided format.

Both formats can coexist with the ESO BG PvP community.
It is simple. Competitive-play? 2-sided. Casual-play? 3-sided.
So, remove the current casual 2-sided and bring back 3-sided.

Which one is the current casual 2-sided? 8v8?

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

@Moonspawn
Regarding the 4 flaws of 2-sided:`
1. What has changed about positioning and target selection? You still want to try and focus down on those that seem like they take more damage than the rest, CC healers, layer burst, rushdown squishies or backline archers while being sure to be mindful of where you're at so as to not get swarmed and focused (unless built for it).

I've been thinking for a while now that the first flaw should be rewritten.

''1. Since you can't use one team against another anymore, it's difficult for BG regulars to engage each other without discarding everything they know about positioning and target selection.''

Rewritten how?

And why?

The description of the first flaw makes it seem like the possibility of being sandwiched is the only factor that facilitates fights between BG regulars. The part about the target order going from 1-4, instead of 1-8, is just as important, but it's hidden at the bottom of the spoiler tab.

The first flaw (rigidity of target order) is also influenced by the third, which encourages BG regulars to spawncamp and pushes them to ''fight'' on opposite ends of the map.

I'm not sure how to write all that in the description. Any suggestions?