Three-Sided Deathmatch

MincMincMinc · April 10

@Haki_7 dude I just dont want to keep having to delete your needless spam of the same images nobody is looking at, you are making it impossible to use the quote function in the forum. Thanks for at least confirming that I am not crazy because I swear I haven't seen you make a point in the past half year you have been spamming your evidence. And yes if the MMR was fixed and players were matched with similar skill players the matches would be far more balanced.....that's kinda self explanatory. Do you think having more balanced MMR matches could make things worse?

Then the next nested issue would be individual team balance within matches, like how we see when one team has a healer and the other team in the match doesn't have a healer. Then the next imbalance would be to start addressing gamemode related issues with spawns, death timers, map design, 2-team gamemodes, and 3 team gamemodes.

Again logically it would be best for zos to tackle the overarching issues before going for more niche targeted issues.

karthrag_inak · April 10

.

xylena wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit sees a lot of complaints about "the same two people posting blah blah blah" from the same two or three people. Is this a 2-team conversation or a 3-team conversation?

Well now we have 3 teams...

Same two people posting blah blah

Complaints about that

Complaints about the complaints

Khajiit isn't complaining. Just want access to 3-team again, was great fun, and this one misses it.

Haki_7 · April 11

Before we continue, a good point has been made here by moonspawn and ruskii. It's perhaps the most important point of all:

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

The real question is why has it taken over 18 months to make such basic QoL changes...

That's because every change we ask of ZOS, no matter how small, will be met with brutal, insane and excruciating resistance the likes of which this world has never seen before.

1. Placing 8v8 at the top of the queue list.

2. Players getting skipped by the matchmaking, having to wait forever in queue.

3. Changing the metrics of matchmaking, even though we don't know what they are.

4. Stop resetting MMR. Perhaps making it account wide.

5. Bringing back 3-sided BGs. Separating Deathmatch from the objectives queue.

6. Revamping the 3-sided objective modes.

7. Fixing level scaling of under50 BGs.

8. Reducing critical heal medal.

9. Confirming if the BG spotlight event at the end of this month be 3-sided.

The list goes on and on.

We know by now that the answer to each of these requests will always be the same craziest resistance the likes of which this world has never seen before. It will be there every step of the way. So if we had to reduce our various wish lists and multi-stage plans to a single item, what would it be?

Chaosball, predetermined victory. Once again, pointless staring contest with ball carriers:

Deathmatch, predetermined victory:

Relic 1 & 2, predetermined victory:

Relic 3, predetermined defeat:

Domination, predetermined victory, Enemy team couldn't reach the flags:

Crazy King, predetermined victory. Same as above:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 172: Waiting 16 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/INbFKBWloLw

ruskiii · April 11

1, 4 and 8 should be very easy to impliment. Good point about the crit heal medal... how has this been awarding 10x the medals it should be for as long as I've been playing the game with no acknowledgement from the devs.

While I think they should be priority (especially queue order and mmr resets should be first as they are the easiest fix with the largest impact), number 7 is a massive problem. U50 BGs are completely broken right now and creating an awful first impression.

It would be great if someone from ZOS could confirm they are even aware of the issue with u50 at all.

Haki_7 · April 12

@MincMincMinc wrote:

Thanks for at least confirming that I am not crazy because I swear I haven't seen you make a point in the past half year you have been spamming your evidence.

I usually put a link to the comment that contains the four reasons why I believe all this evidence exists. But you and ruskii seem to have different beliefs. Beliefs I am trying to understand.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

And yes if the MMR was fixed and players were matched with similar skill players the matches would be far more balanced.....that's kinda self explanatory.

Sounds like you're saying I would no longer be able to post staggering amounts of consistently lopsided scoreboards every day if ZOS stops resetting the MMR. But what if I still can? Onward to the next invisible change?

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 173: Waiting 18 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/Uic3tXb5ADk

Domination, impossible to lose:

Crazy King, impossible to lose. Half of them left. Fourth flaw:

Deathmatch, impossible to lose:

Chaosball, impossible to lose. As always, soul gazing session with ball carriers:

Relic 1 and 2, impossible to lose:

Relic 3, impossible to win. Team with healer somehow losing to team without healer:

ruskiii · April 12

It was possible to do the same thing in 4v4v4 to be fair. Plenty of unbalanced pug lobbies happened then too. Its the risk you face queueing up with randoms. Some team will usually luck into having a better comp. If MMR stopped resetting we'd still be using the same MMR system we had in 4v4v4, which did progress players up the ranks more based on games played than actual skill.

Stopping the MMR resets wouldn't be a magic fix for all issues in BGs, but it would prevent the first of the month bloodbaths that last for a week or two into the month, and that is an awful experience for new and old players alike.

I can only speak for myself but I would be more than happy to sacrifice good queue times on my main characters while the higher MMR ranks are filled. Then within a month or two MMR should be back to a similar functionality to how it was in 3 team BGs.

xylena · April 13

Here is a list of ways to fix BGs.

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Rework the MMR

Haki_7 · April 13

@ruskiii wrote:

It was possible to do the same thing in 4v4v4 to be fair.

I don't see how.

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense). So the question remains: After this grueling, years-long battle is over, will the goal of the next one be yet another invisible change that may not have the desired effect?

Chaosball, no way of losing. Instead of doing the objective to end the lopsided snoozefest quickly, teammates chose to spawncamp opponents for the full 15 minutes. Now we are truly lost:

Relic 1, no way of winning:

Relic 2 & 3, no way of losing. Opponents promptly giving up after we get a single relic. Fourth flaw:

Deathmatch, no way of losing. Spawncamping from start to finish:

Domination, no way of losing:

Crazy King, no way of losing:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 174: Waiting 28 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/ebaERW1nRew

Vordarax · April 13

all you have to do is what i did stop paying money into the game when they loose enough customers they will take what we are saying into account

my £50 month does not go into the game until i feel its worth paying for again

Moonspawn · April 13

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

Urzigurumash · April 14

There also wasn't an MMR reset in the old format before 2020ish except maybe once a patch or so, seems to me like it never did one single time until 2020ish.

Those first years were by far the most competitive for me, but it came at the expense of queue times and having to hit accept 10 times per match.

ruskiii · April 14

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

what does this even mean?

ruskiii · April 14

Urzigurumash wrote: »

There also wasn't an MMR reset in the old format before 2020ish except maybe once a patch or so, seems to me like it never did one single time until 2020ish.

Those first years were by far the most competitive for me, but it came at the expense of queue times and having to hit accept 10 times per match.

It would be nice to get some communication from the devs about BGs and MMR resets. Wheeler did an interview about MMR a while ago, but the responses in the first PVP Q&A and follow-up posts from community support have contradicted that tbh.

xylena · April 14

ruskiii wrote: »

It would be nice to get some communication from the devs about BGs and MMR resets.

Clarification on forum rules regarding spam and multiple accounts would also be helpful.

Haki_7 · April 14

@rockDokRock wrote:

Just do what I do and don't play it. I won't touch it anymore as that has been my experience after a few games. Pointless.

But if I give up, then my dream will be lost forever.

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 175: Waiting 18 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/1eV3izxWNvo

Chaosball, no risk of losing. The usual staring contest with ball carriers:

Deathmatch, no risk of losing:

Relic 1 and 2, no risk of losing:

Relic 3, no risk of winning:

Crazy King, no risk of losing. Half of them left:

Domination, no risk of losing. Running around trying to end the nightmare while my team spawncamps. Third critical flaw of 2-sided:

Moonspawn · April 14

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

what does this even mean?

From what you and @MincMincMinc have been writing, the both of you believe the monthly MMR resets started in the same update that introduced 2-sided BGs. Correct?

MincMincMinc · April 14

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

what does this even mean?

From what you and @MincMincMinc have been writing, the both of you believe the monthly MMR resets started in the same update that introduced 2-sided BGs. Correct?

No I don't think either of us said this, but its highly likely when zos was doing a major pass like the two team system rework they would have changed the mmr or leaderboard system. That's just how most companies work where they spin up teams to all work on the same projects.

rockDokRock · April 14

Haki_7 wrote: »

But if I give up, then my dream will be lost forever.

You should probably get our more if that is your dream.

ruskiii · April 14

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

what does this even mean?

From what you and @MincMincMinc have been writing, the both of you believe the monthly MMR resets started in the same update that introduced 2-sided BGs. Correct?

Its not a point of belief. The devs announced the resets starting in u44, and gave the weekly leaderboards being the reason for the monthly resets in the first part of the PVP Q&A.

Moonspawn · April 14

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Haki_7 wrote: »

I understand wanting to stop the MMR resets, perhaps making it account wide too. It's what everyone wants. But it will be 2 years soon, and they already invented a reason not to do it long ago (the leaderboards nonsense).

Makes me wonder just how long ago. Why does everyone assume the leaderboard nonsense only started with the update that introduced 2-sided BGs?

what does this even mean?

From what you and @MincMincMinc have been writing, the both of you believe the monthly MMR resets started in the same update that introduced 2-sided BGs. Correct?

Its not a point of belief. The devs announced the resets starting in u44

That was a strange thing to do. Are you certain? I have no memory of this announcement.

ruskiii · April 14

Moonspawn wrote: »

Are you certain?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

ruskiii · April 14

I wasn't going to bother linking it, but I'm glad I did, I completely forgot that the 7 day decay was a thing too. @MincMincMinc it actually explains some of your experiences playing BGs infrequently over a month, more than just the monthly reset alone.

Haki_7 · April 15

@karthrag_inak wrote:

Khajiit sees a lot of complaints about "the same two people posting blah blah blah" from the same two or three people. Is this a 2-team conversation or a 3-team conversation?

We're currently discussing the MMR resets. Trying to figure out the reasons why, when BGs were 3-sided, it was impossible to post so many matches like these:

Crazy King, no way to lose. Desperately running around trying to end the lopsided snoozefest while teammates were hypnotized spawncamping newcomers. Third flaw of 2-sided:

Chaosball, no way to lose. Soul gazing session with ball carriers as opponents are unable to reach us:

Deathmatch, no way to lose:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 176: Waiting 18 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)

https://youtu.be/V6HWTZCaAOo

Relic 1, 2 & 3 no way to lose. Fourth flaw:

Domination, no way to win. We couldn't even reach the flags:

MincMincMinc · April 15

ruskiii wrote: »

I wasn't going to bother linking it, but I'm glad I did, I completely forgot that the 7 day decay was a thing too. @MincMincMinc it actually explains some of your experiences playing BGs infrequently over a month, more than just the monthly reset alone.

Yeah zos basically made it insufferable to come back to the game or even play it weekend to weekend. Imagine if you are in post grad college classes for nuclear physics, but you are sick for a week and then get forced back to start over again in kindergarten classes.....its lunacy. Funny enough the analogy works for literally becoming the biggest kid on the block able to instantly bully and beatup the people that should be at that level.

idk who we need to ping at zos, but is the design intent that I am supposed to go grief new BG players every other week I can play the game? At what point are vet players at risk of being banned because of how the MMR works?

Moonspawn · April 15

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Are you certain?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

That's a very interesting choice of words there by Kevin. Why would they go to all the trouble of creating two-sided BGs, only to set them up to fail like that, with these monthly MMR resets?

MincMincMinc · April 15

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Are you certain?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

That's a very interesting choice of words there by Kevin. Why would they go to all the trouble of creating two-sided BGs, only to set them up to fail like that, with these monthly MMR resets?

Yeah there was another post where we asked them why and their response was something on the lines of they wanted the leaderboards to reset so everyone had a chance of being in the top 10. So they would rather everyone hate and be upset at bgs for the fleeting chance someone sees their name on a leaderboard nobody knows about for a few seconds at the start of the reset.

They would be better off just making a bronze/silver,gold ranking and have your rank shown at the end of each match.

ruskiii · April 15

The irony being that mismatched lobbies make it harder for new players to gain medals and climb the leaderboard, and the crit heal medal giving 10x more points than it should means to get into the top ten you have to play a healer or absolutely no-life 4v4s as a dps to stand a chance.

ruskiii · April 15

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Are you certain?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

That's a very interesting choice of words there by Kevin. Why would they go to all the trouble of creating two-sided BGs, only to set them up to fail like that, with these monthly MMR resets?

Ive been asking myself the same question everyday for like 18 months. Unfortunately at this point it does seem that the mismanagement of BGs could be intentional. I wouldnt be suprised if ZOS announce Vengeance for BGs before trying the very obvious and very simple fixes we have been suggesting since U44 PTS.

Moonspawn · April 15

@ruskiii wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

ruskiii wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Are you certain?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

That's a very interesting choice of words there by Kevin. Why would they go to all the trouble of creating two-sided BGs, only to set them up to fail like that, with these monthly MMR resets?

Ive been asking myself the same question everyday for like 18 months. Unfortunately at this point it does seem that the mismanagement of BGs could be intentional. I wouldnt be suprised if ZOS announce Vengeance for BGs before trying the very obvious and very simple fixes we have been suggesting since U44 PTS.

Maybe they didn't spend years developing two-sided BGs just to set them up to fail in the most perplexing way imaginable. Considering their obsession with leaderboards, and a different interpretation of Kevin's words, is it possible the MMR of 3-sided had been resetting weekly with the leaderboards all along?

ruskiii · April 15

Moonspawn wrote: »

Maybe they did not set up two-sided BGs for failure

There's always a chance, but given how long these core issues have persisted with very simple fixes being clear, it would almost be more embarrassing if it wasn't intentional.

Moonspawn wrote: »

Considering their obsession with leaderboards

Obsession with leaderboards is a huge stretch. Because the MMR resets either don't effect the leaderboards, or make it harder for new players to climb, the exact opposite of their stated intentions, it is likely leaderboards were given as the reason for resets in order to placate the people who kept asking. The inconsistencies/incorrect statements/misunderstanding questions that happened in that first PVP Q&A has been brought up several times. ZOS even commented that they will look into redoing that part of the Q&A, though I am not holding breath on that happening.

Moonspawn wrote: »

is it possible the MMR of 3-sided had been resetting weekly with the leaderboards all along?

Did you even play 4v4v4? The MMR was very noticeable. Especially making a new character with fresh MMR your first few lobbies would be filled with players new to BGs, and then eventually you would rank up and get back into the lobbies with the same 30 guys over and over again. Almost my entire friends list is people I met playing high MMR BGs, you get to know each other after playing with/against each other on a daily basis. Once your character reached high MMR there was a very slow degradation, like you could not log into a character for months and months but it would retain its MMR.

To be honest, the more I read your posts, the more it seems like you never really played BGs that much.