tomofhyrule wrote: »

The question isn’t “was BR ever poplocked?” (Which it did get to on weekends on PC)

The question is “are the people in long 80+ person GH queues more likely to go to Vengeance since there’s no queue, or quit the game since they aren’t able to get into their preferred mode?”

GH has a max of 360 players, or 120 per alliance. If the queues in GH are approaching 100, that means that there is sufficient demand for another standard-rules Cyrodiil mode to ipen another Campaign - even though those 100 people could go into Vengeance, there must be something about Vengeance that they dislike enough to choose to sit in multi-hour queues (or uninstall ESO).

for the last year blackreach was available, i still saw 80+ queues to go in grey host even though that would have poplocked blackreach

for the OP, no adding blackreach wont change anything, cause people are just flat out unwilling to go to any camp that isnt grey host (for some strange reason)

personally i am strongly against grey host at this point because im tired of all the toxic nonsense that goes on in there (bombers, ball groups, gankers, tower campers, people generally being unable to die)

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Can you enter delves, grab skyshards, or do town quests in Vengeance yet?

yes, you can still do that stuff in vengeance

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The question isn’t “was BR ever poplocked?” (Which it did get to on weekends on PC)

The question is “are the people in long 80+ person GH queues more likely to go to Vengeance since there’s no queue, or quit the game since they aren’t able to get into their preferred mode?”

GH has a max of 360 players, or 120 per alliance. If the queues in GH are approaching 100, that means that there is sufficient demand for another standard-rules Cyrodiil mode to ipen another Campaign - even though those 100 people could go into Vengeance, there must be something about Vengeance that they dislike enough to choose to sit in multi-hour queues (or uninstall ESO).

for the last year blackreach was available, i still saw 80+ queues to go in grey host even though that would have poplocked blackreach

for the OP, no adding blackreach wont change anything, cause people are just flat out unwilling to go to any camp that isnt grey host (for some strange reason)

personally i am strongly against grey host at this point because im tired of all the toxic nonsense that goes on in there (bombers, ball groups, gankers, tower campers, people generally being unable to die)

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Can you enter delves, grab skyshards, or do town quests in Vengeance yet?

yes, you can still do that stuff in vengeance

XBOX NA here.

I remember BR being full bars for Blue and Yellow and pop-locked red just 2-2.5 years ago. Even before subclassing came out, the BR population was still on average 2 bars each during primetime. The population has really dwindled since then, but that is more due to the fact that because BR is NOT alliance-locked, the shenanigans and toxicity was palpable, and most players either quit playing, left, or started maining GH.

If they bring BR back, it NEEDS to be an alliance locked campaign.

Maybe.

Most of the time on PS NA, Blackreach was less than one bar all factions but on the weekends it was somewhere players could go while waiting for GH or as an alternative. The PvP there was incredibly disorganized and the action was slow as molasses, but if enough people got on things occasionally picked up a bit.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The question isn’t “was BR ever poplocked?” (Which it did get to on weekends on PC)

The question is “are the people in long 80+ person GH queues more likely to go to Vengeance since there’s no queue, or quit the game since they aren’t able to get into their preferred mode?”

GH has a max of 360 players, or 120 per alliance. If the queues in GH are approaching 100, that means that there is sufficient demand for another standard-rules Cyrodiil mode to ipen another Campaign - even though those 100 people could go into Vengeance, there must be something about Vengeance that they dislike enough to choose to sit in multi-hour queues (or uninstall ESO).

for the last year blackreach was available, i still saw 80+ queues to go in grey host even though that would have poplocked blackreach

for the OP, no adding blackreach wont change anything, cause people are just flat out unwilling to go to any camp that isnt grey host (for some strange reason)

personally i am strongly against grey host at this point because im tired of all the toxic nonsense that goes on in there (bombers, ball groups, gankers, tower campers, people generally being unable to die)

Monte_Cristo wrote: »

Can you enter delves, grab skyshards, or do town quests in Vengeance yet?

yes, you can still do that stuff in vengeance

XBOX NA here.

I remember BR being full bars for Blue and Yellow and pop-locked red just 2-2.5 years ago. Even before subclassing came out, the BR population was still on average 2 bars each during primetime. The population has really dwindled since then, but that is more due to the fact that because BR is NOT alliance-locked, the shenanigans and toxicity was palpable, and most players either quit playing, left, or started maining GH.

If they bring BR back, it NEEDS to be an alliance locked campaign.

Remember that each server's population is different, afaik xbox has a lower population than PC. I definitely had to wait in queue to blackreach 2 years ago. In the past months a lot of people stopped playing cyro because they got bored of just one dk meta, now with u50 and pureclass a lot are coming back, the queues are much worse (on PC/EU at least) than during u49. Many of my friends decided not to play ESO yesterday since the queule to GH was literally 100+. I think bringing back just BR wouldn't hurt anyone especially since it would merge with raven's players

I play with a group of friends every Friday night, we would always start off in br while we wait for our gh queues to pop. The fights were actually pretty decent in BR and often times we would actually end up having more fun in there because the fights were better and the performance was often a step above GH (nowhere near perfect though).

We had to cancel this last Friday because of the long queues. About half of us don't get home until at least 7:30 central. 3 of us sat through the queue to get a good handle on the actual queue time (the little tooltip maxes out at 1hour+). One person queued way early at 6:24 PM CST and got in 1 hour 30 minutes later at 7:54. One person queued closer to when some of our folks would realistically get home at 7:24, they didn't get in until 9:11, so that was 1 hour 47 minutes. I queued at 7:08 pm and didn't get in until 9:01 pm, so that was a 1 hour 53 minute queue for me. Also by the time I got in there, the fights were winding down.

Safe to say we won't be pvping on Fridays anymore because of it. It's just too unrealistic to sit through 2 hour queues when half of our friends can't even queue early in anticipation. And for the folks who can queue early there's nothing to do in the mean time. Some people's computers can't handle tabbing out and playing another game, and none of us have any interest whatsoever in being forced to play vengeance. We tried the test multiple times and we hated it and had no fun for a variety of different reasons. On top of all that we've experienced the queue bug often, so sitting through a queue that long and having that happen later in the queue would effectively rule that person out of pvp for the day. So now either we try to reschedule to a different day or we just stop playing all together.

Also because of the faction lock on GH, we can only pvp with toons from one faction. One of the nice things about br was that we could go in on any faction. As a final note I think it's very telling when you go to a random overland zone like Vvardenfell, and people in say chat are talking about how much they miss BR. So yeah, I think it was a mistake to cut BR.

The_Butter wrote: »

Do not worry. ZOS actually has a very clever plan for reducing Grey Host queue times: drive all of their pvp playerbase to quit the game and then there won't be anyone left to have a queue for Grey Host. Problem is solved! Thank yoh ZOS, another $200 house please!

IMHO the biggest problem with pvp isn’t even the campaigns, it’s the players.

In Vengeance PC NA, EP zergs the map and fiercely protects it, showing up with 50 people when someone so much as tries to take a resource.
In GH PC NA, DC is currently doing the same thing. In the past it was usually EP who did this but they may have moved to Vengeance. There was also a time where AD did this. Blackreach and ehhh… the other one were also always like this.

What happens then is people see a map in one color > they try to take something > they get zerged down > they log out because it’s not fun to constantly be zerged down.

Or if they’re on the faction that has taken the entire map, some players will log on and log off again because there’s nothing to do.

It’s the players that are creating dead maps and I believe that ultimately that is what will be the death of Cyrodiil.

Stamicka wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

The question isn’t “was BR ever poplocked?” (Which it did get to on weekends on PC)

The question is “are the people in long 80+ person GH queues more likely to go to Vengeance since there’s no queue, or quit the game since they aren’t able to get into their preferred mode?”

GH has a max of 360 players, or 120 per alliance. If the queues in GH are approaching 100, that means that there is sufficient demand for another standard-rules Cyrodiil mode to ipen another Campaign - even though those 100 people could go into Vengeance, there must be something about Vengeance that they dislike enough to choose to sit in multi-hour queues (or uninstall ESO).

I haven’t seen Blackreach with a single bar in quite a long time honestly. I voted no, but I suppose it wouldn’t hurt anything to add it alongside Vengeance and Grey Host. It could just sit there and be dead all day. Why not I guess.

Blackreach would on weekend during heavy Qs on Greyhost get to 3 bars on one faction and two on the rest. There was also a small dedicated group of people that played Blackreach and NO CP everynight. With no CP im sure black reach would reach modest populations during the week days and a few bars on the weekends. YOU just need to disable the emp mechanic thats what kind of killed that campaign honestly.

XBox NA. Level 2566 Stam Sorc. Played ESO since pre-release and converted to console when that was offered.

As a PvE player I treated Blackreach as a PvE environment and took my lumps when killed by other alliances.
I took it as part of the game. I liked the element of danger.
I was primarily interested in doing the town quests, the Fighter's Guild stuff, and occasionally scouted and took down a resource on my own. Rarely got involved in the campaign. Still Maxed out all the skill lines. Got all my fish needed for Master Angler.
My goal was to hit Colonel and unfortunately without Blackreach that's going to be harder to do. I'm only 108,000 AP from it too.

GH is more than 2h queue at the time I get home from work.. I come to play eso just for pvp..
Lately I log in to sit in queue, with my budies just to get in Cyrodiil when its time to log off. I understand you want to bring a new experience with less lag. But as the campaign shows a lot of people want to play GH (or at least the basic ruleset).
We cant go in IC while we wait for the queue as you cant tp with telvars and cant do bgs as they cancel the queue.
This is a situation that just kills my motivation to get on ESO, and I dont think Im the onlyone in this case.

timparr wrote: »

Voted Yes, because I want somewhere that I can do PvE stuff in a PvP zone. Town quests, delves, fishing etc. I want to do that on the build I am used to from PvE.

Been doing that for a couple of months, and stared looking at builds that would actually be effective in PvP - so I was starting to morph into more of a PvP focus (for my Cyro time at least).

The vengeance campaign would never let me do that. I am absolutely fine with keeping vengeance, but why we have to choose to go there, or queue is beyond me. No-one has explained why BR or the others had to go away to make vengeance possible.

If people are asking for BR to come back, but faction locked, that would help with the queue situation, but not the 'I have multiple alts on different factions' one. I like to get all alts to the tier 1 rewards each month for the rewards and this is impossible.

Possible solutions would be to have three 'normal' campaigns, or to allow you to fight for any alliance - so once you committed to an alliance, all your alts could still go to that campaign, but they would be fighting for the 'account locked' alliance.

You've got vengeance. It's a PvE zone as it is already.

I don't do Cyrodiil/PvPmuch, so this opinion isn't terribly strong.
But I'd like a non-faction locked non-Vengeance CP campaign, where I can do things like the Capture 9 resources quest solo, and get treasure maps on whichever faction the treasure site is closest to.

I haven't tried 9 resources on Veng, because the one time I tried Veng I was getting slaughtered by wolves (No, not really, but I'm bad at PvP, so soloing a resource without sets and CP is doubtful).

Right now, I'm just stacking my Cyr maps, and I haven't entered Cyr or Imp City since the Tel Var limit went into effect (except to visit the style master vendor). I used to do an Imp City daily every day for the Merit. No longer.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

timparr wrote: »

Voted Yes, because I want somewhere that I can do PvE stuff in a PvP zone. Town quests, delves, fishing etc. I want to do that on the build I am used to from PvE.

Been doing that for a couple of months, and stared looking at builds that would actually be effective in PvP - so I was starting to morph into more of a PvP focus (for my Cyro time at least).

The vengeance campaign would never let me do that. I am absolutely fine with keeping vengeance, but why we have to choose to go there, or queue is beyond me. No-one has explained why BR or the others had to go away to make vengeance possible.

If people are asking for BR to come back, but faction locked, that would help with the queue situation, but not the 'I have multiple alts on different factions' one. I like to get all alts to the tier 1 rewards each month for the rewards and this is impossible.

Possible solutions would be to have three 'normal' campaigns, or to allow you to fight for any alliance - so once you committed to an alliance, all your alts could still go to that campaign, but they would be fighting for the 'account locked' alliance.

You've got vengeance. It's a PvE zone as it is already.

If you read my post, you will see that I have no interest in a 'template' build. I want to run the builds I already have. Also I had been slowing shifting from PvE to PvP as I discovered more about the zone, the mechanics etc and started adapting my build. At the time the ability to run my own build was taken away, I was at the stage where I was almost viable in PvP (1 on 1 at least) and I think a lot of PvE players would follow a similar tragectory to mine.

Template builds do not respect my time spent farming. researching etc and they don't feel like 'my' characters.

timparr wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

timparr wrote: »

Voted Yes, because I want somewhere that I can do PvE stuff in a PvP zone. Town quests, delves, fishing etc. I want to do that on the build I am used to from PvE.

Been doing that for a couple of months, and stared looking at builds that would actually be effective in PvP - so I was starting to morph into more of a PvP focus (for my Cyro time at least).

The vengeance campaign would never let me do that. I am absolutely fine with keeping vengeance, but why we have to choose to go there, or queue is beyond me. No-one has explained why BR or the others had to go away to make vengeance possible.

If people are asking for BR to come back, but faction locked, that would help with the queue situation, but not the 'I have multiple alts on different factions' one. I like to get all alts to the tier 1 rewards each month for the rewards and this is impossible.

Possible solutions would be to have three 'normal' campaigns, or to allow you to fight for any alliance - so once you committed to an alliance, all your alts could still go to that campaign, but they would be fighting for the 'account locked' alliance.

You've got vengeance. It's a PvE zone as it is already.

If you read my post, you will see that I have no interest in a 'template' build. I want to run the builds I already have. Also I had been slowing shifting from PvE to PvP as I discovered more about the zone, the mechanics etc and started adapting my build. At the time the ability to run my own build was taken away, I was at the stage where I was almost viable in PvP (1 on 1 at least) and I think a lot of PvE players would follow a similar tragectory to mine.

Template builds do not respect my time spent farming. researching etc and they don't feel like 'my' characters.

Your post outlines two major problems with vengeance.

First, vengeance strips out everything that is ESO and is a totally different, disconnected game system from ESO.

And second, vengeance in no way prepares players to compete in Grey Host.

There is just nothing what so ever from the consumer perspective that makes vengeance make any sense to have sunk time and money into the development in the first place. And nobody asked for vengeance. Literally nobody.