Maintenance for the week of May 11:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 11
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 11
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.0.4 is available.
U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery
-
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.1 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,460 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast, and that's not accounting for any of those heals critting.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.Edited by NxJoeyD on 14 May 2026 02:261 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,4060 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.
Good. Graciously assuming that would somehow be feasible, you can now tell me how much time that leaves you for a proper rotation with kill potential.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,4060 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.
Good. Graciously assuming that would somehow be feasible, you can now tell me how much time that leaves you for a proper rotation with kill potential.
What do you mean? that's just casting the skill. Subclassed builds can hit high crit chance without having to actively proc that through rotation. Like I mentioned before, the Assassination skill line all by itself will give you 35% or more crit chance without having to activate anything.
Puncturing Sweep is just an example of passive healing while dealing damage, there's also Burning Embers and Flame Lash, both of which are popular amongst the subclassed builds. Blood Craze can deliver a crit HoT tick in PvP of around 1.6k and a player can apply that to as many targets as they want, there's no cap on the heal.
It's basically the reason why so many people have been complaining about the crit meta in PvP, subclassing made that a problem.
If crit modifiers had a hard cap in PvP rather than the soft cap then none of this would really be an issue and CoE in it's current state would be broken. But when we're saying that pure-class, non-crit focused class builds are supposed to have a competitive chance against subclassed builds that are delivering numbers that are sky high, then the passives needed need to be as strong1 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Funny because I am also using armor pots and have MORE than capped resists with 7.9k WD etc. Like I said, the more you guys argue the more I actually think you aren't on PTS and testing. You guys can't just sit here and make wild claims without actually backing it up. I can show a million screenshots or videos of evidence and they would never satisfy you because you aren't actually playing PTS Sorc, and are using the live version as anchor for your arguments.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭Not exactly but it speaks to crit being the source of the higher potential for the passive, not the fact that one is a Sorc. Those are two very different things, and as I've said before, a pure-Sorc isn't a crit based class.
Yes, Sorc has less crit chance than NB, but it is still the second highest crit chance class with Major + Minor Prophecy. That still makes it a crit chance class lol... Also, Sorc has more weapon damage passives while NB doesn't. Why don't you talk about that as well?First, you're leaning on gear to get those crit numbers, the Sorc class isn't delivering them. The reason that matters is because it would be wrong to say or assume that Sorcs, as a rule, have 50%+ crit chance, that's not a cornerstone of Sorcs. The reason most can get it is because the game is loaded with sets but that doesn't mean everyone is going to run them.
Everyone leans on gears to get something. That's why they exist. If you refuse to run them, then you can't really blame the class for lacking damage or survivability. For example, DK is insanely strong, but the strongest current builds are either Vicious Death/Rally for bombing, Oakfather/Rally for general PvP, Pyrebrand/Mara's Balm for 1vXing, or Pyrebrand/Relequen for dueling. All of these setups have been tested by the top 1% of players and made public for everyone to use, so if someone doesn't use any of those combinations and die to another class, they can't really say DK is still weaker post rework.
Buffing Sorc to have that much crit chance without nerfing something else would literally break this class, as seen on PTS. I am getting insane stat values and competing vs reworked classes while my own class is still half a year away from its turn. I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but if someone else cannot replicate the same results, it's either they are using unoptimized sets or are simply not as good at the class as I am, or both. It's that simple.And to answer your question, yes, subclassed builds can hit upwards of 80% crit chance. The Assassination skill tree by itself can deliver 35% chance, consistently.
I didn't ask you for 1 stat. I asked you for multiple stats. Can subclassed builds reach 7.9k WD, 33k+ stam/mag, 50%+ crit chance, 150%+ crit damage, and 30k+ resists? Please provide a screenshot of that buildWhat do you mean? Literally ANY class can combine Healing Soul, Vigor, Healing Contingency, etc to stack heals, and they do, and that's before any subclass healing opportunities.
Other than DK and WW, Sorc is the only remaining class that can run a full damage build without Vigor and STILL survive up to 7k DPS. Your subclassed builds will never achieve this, sorry.Edited by hoangdz on 14 May 2026 04:221 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭Went to Imperial City on PTS to test max stat values, so Battle Spirit is already accounted for. I'm in basic Order's Wrath/Rally/Monomyth/Kena, 2h/Ice staff:
That's:
- 7726 WD
- 33.4k stam
- 16.9k mag
- 50.9% crit chance
- 146% crit damage
- 7587 pen before Onslaught
- 31.6k HP
- 34.7k resists
- 3.5k crit resist.
Here's a meta Animal/Asssassination/Storm build with Order's Wrath/Rally/Mono/Balorgh, DW/SnB. Stats are maxed with 500 Balorgh ult:
That's:
- 6458 WD with 500 Balorgh
- 24.8k stam
- 16.3k mag
- 49.7% crit chance
- 135% crit damage
- 26673 pen with 500 Balorgh
- 28.5k HP
- 28.6k resists
- 3.8k crit resist (back bar only)
This meta subclassed build has:
- 1268 less WD at full Balorgh stacks
- 8.6k less stam
- 600 less mag
- 1.2% less crit chance
- 11% less crit damage
- More base pen before Balorgh, but capped at 26.6k, while Onslaught gives full pen regardless of armor values
- 3.1k less HP
- 6k less resists
The only thing this subclassed build has more is crit resist and stam/mag recoveries. Guess what? Sorc DOES NOT need to build into recovery at all on PTS, thereby allowing it to push for extreme stat values. No subclassed build in the game other than Ardent Flame can do this, and even then, you will still not be able to reach these values.
Onslaught is carrying pen hard here, so if I did the same thing for this meta subclassed build, I'd lose ~300 WD and gained ~6% crit chance + full pen. That is still significantly less than PTS Sorc.
So, please show me a subclassed build that can reach these values.1 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Funny because I am also using armor pots and have MORE than capped resists with 7.9k WD etc. Like I said, the more you guys argue the more I actually think you aren't on PTS and testing. You guys can't just sit here and make wild claims without actually backing it up. I can show a million screenshots or videos of evidence and they would never satisfy you because you aren't actually playing PTS Sorc, and are using the live version as anchor for your arguments.
I am sitting at 38k resis each on frontbar without armor pots already.
Maybe you should test SPS pure Warden on the PTS and then tell ppl what they really should be concerned about when U50 hits live.2 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Funny because I am also using armor pots and have MORE than capped resists with 7.9k WD etc. Like I said, the more you guys argue the more I actually think you aren't on PTS and testing. You guys can't just sit here and make wild claims without actually backing it up. I can show a million screenshots or videos of evidence and they would never satisfy you because you aren't actually playing PTS Sorc, and are using the live version as anchor for your arguments.
I am sitting at 38k resis each on frontbar without armor pots already.
Maybe you should test SPS pure Warden on the PTS and then tell ppl what they really should be concerned about when U50 hits live.
Getting high armor is easy, especially on a class that has a 3k armor passive. Sorc is no slouch though with a 5% unnamed mitigation buff.
And yes, I have already fought SPS pure Wardens on the PTS. They are not as hard to fight as WWs and full proc DKs. Sorc can actually do comparable DPS and survive just as well.0 -
acanca✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Funny because I am also using armor pots and have MORE than capped resists with 7.9k WD etc. Like I said, the more you guys argue the more I actually think you aren't on PTS and testing. You guys can't just sit here and make wild claims without actually backing it up. I can show a million screenshots or videos of evidence and they would never satisfy you because you aren't actually playing PTS Sorc, and are using the live version as anchor for your arguments.
I am sitting at 38k resis each on frontbar without armor pots already.
Maybe you should test SPS pure Warden on the PTS and then tell ppl what they really should be concerned about when U50 hits live.
I tried both signet magden and a b4b pressure build in pts, magden did good damage but had bad sustain same as pre subclassing era and the pressure build felt like it had a very narrow way to build it with serpent and then either aeries or rally, that one felt good but im guessing thats not what you consider op about warden. Whats broken then? Warden does good damage sure but i dont see them being better than say pure class dk?0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Yes, Sorc has less crit chance than NB, but it is still the second highest crit chance class with Major + Minor Prophecy. That still makes it a crit chance class loo... Also, Sorc has more weapon damage passives while NB doesn't. Why don't you talk about that as well?
Because NB doesn't need Minor Prophecy, the class offers Major by slotting Grim / Merciless but also has the Master Assassin passive which delivers more crit chance than Minor Prophecy does and the only proc requirement is to be "flanking" the target and everyone in ESO knows how generous the recognition of flank is in the game. Further, Assassination synergizes well with Dual Wield, as does any Stam based build, which sees an additional (non named) equivalent of Minor Prophecy's worth of crit just from slotting two daggers.
What really falls shorter for Sorc is that Minor Prophecy is the passive that every Sorc has by Exploitation but the Major Prophecy is only through the BA morph which synergizes well with Stam Sorc but not Mag Sorc, whereas with NB, Grim / Merciless really aligns with the entire class identity. A Stam Sorc slotting BA + running Duel Wield is a night & day difference between a Mag Sorc with Destro staves.
NB is the strongest crit class, by far, no other class really comes close to that which is why so many subclassed builds slot Assassination and why crit went up so strongly after subclassing. Only NB really carried so much crit potential in one skill tree and subclassing opened the door for everyone to use it.
So no, in contrast, Sorc isn't a Crit class, because by itself only Minor Prophecy is sensible for every Sorc and that's all we have besides BA which is a much more narrow focus. So not all pure Sorcs are going to run high crit.Everyone leans on gears to get something. That's why they exist. If you refuse to run them, then you can't really blame the class for lacking damage or survivability. For example, DK is insanely strong, but the strongest current builds are either Vicious Death/Rally for bombing, Oakfather/Rally for general PvP, Pyrebrand/Mara's Balm for 1vXing, or Pyrebrand/Relequen for dueling. All of these setups have been tested by the top 1% of players and made public for everyone to use, so someone doesn't use any of those combinations and die to another class, they can't really say DK is still weaker post rework.
Buffing Sorc to have that much crit chance without nerfing something else would literally break this class, as seen on PTS. I am getting insane stat values and competing vs reworked classes while my own class is still half a year away from its turn. I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but if someone else cannot replicate the same results, it's either they are using unoptimized sets or are simply not as good at the class as I am, or both. It's that simple.
Of course, we all use gear, that's a given. And I'm not saying Sorc should get a crit buff, what I'm saying is that due to the high crit potential that subclassing enabled, the amount of total power in PvP went sky high and a pure-class Sorc needs as much of an opportunity to be competitive.
What you're suggesting is akin to saying: "either someone plays the meta or they should just not be competitive". Nobody is saying that passives should be scaled to facilitate poor choices in builds but they need to be supportive of the class as a whole, not just one variation of it. Are we saying that every Sorc should run Stam or should have to run Vamp just to be competitive? Because unless that's what we're saying that changes the landscape in what would be slotted by a significant amount.I didn't ask you for 1 stat. I asked you for multiple stats. Can subclassed builds reach 7.9k WD, 33k+ stam/mag, 50%+ crit chance, 150%+ crit damage, and 30k+ resists? Please provide a screenshot of that build
No, but you're not running those numbers either so I don't know why you're asking for it.
Subclassed metas are going to run consistent crit chance of over 60% to 70% base potentially scaling to over 80% - 90% with high modifiers and around 5k in W/S Dmg, 27k - 30k health, 30k to 35k Stam (much lower Mag) and resists in the 24k area. A subclassed Meta is going to mitigate damage through a combination of active & passive healing, movement buffs, block, and other buffs such as Major Protection & Evasion to avoid / reduce incoming damage. High crit scaling reduces the need for tank level resistances.Other than DK and WW, Sorc is the only remaining class that can run a full damage build without Vigor and STILL survive up to 7k DPS. Your subclassed builds will never achieve this, sorry.
For one subclassed builds can slot DK skills or run WW, but forget WW for the moment. Any subclassed build can slot skills like Fire Keeper or Heart of Flame, and it's not as if Ardent Flame isn't a popular skill line to subclass in. As for classes surviving up to 7k DPS in PvP; that's probably the standard in PvP now. My Mag Sorc can burst anywhere between 16k to 19k (after resistances) in one CGD and chunk a players health bar in half and they'll instantly heal back up. In PvP it's commonplace for a meta build to be able to burst from execute range back to full health in one cast. Realistically 7k DPS should be heal-able in PvP.Edited by NxJoeyD on 14 May 2026 06:331 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭Went to Imperial City on PTS to test max stat values, so Battle Spirit is already accounted for. I'm in basic Order's Wrath/Rally/Monomyth/Kena, 2h/Ice staff:
That's:
- 7726 WD
- 33.4k stam
- 16.9k mag
- 50.9% crit chance
- 146% crit damage
- 7587 pen before Onslaught
- 31.6k HP
- 34.7k resists
- 3.5k crit resist.
Here's a meta Animal/Asssassination/Storm build with Order's Wrath/Rally/Mono/Balorgh, DW/SnB. Stats are maxed with 500 Balorgh ult:
That's:
- 6458 WD with 500 Balorgh
- 24.8k stam
- 16.3k mag
- 49.7% crit chance
- 135% crit damage
- 26673 pen with 500 Balorgh
- 28.5k HP
- 28.6k resists
- 3.8k crit resist (back bar only)
This meta subclassed build has:
- 1268 less WD at full Balorgh stacks
- 8.6k less stam
- 600 less mag
- 1.2% less crit chance
- 11% less crit damage
- More base pen before Balorgh, but capped at 26.6k, while Onslaught gives full pen regardless of armor values
- 3.1k less HP
- 6k less resists
The only thing this subclassed build has more is crit resist and stam/mag recoveries. Guess what? Sorc DOES NOT need to build into recovery at all on PTS, thereby allowing it to push for extreme stat values. No subclassed build in the game other than Ardent Flame can do this, and even then, you will still not be able to reach these values.
Onslaught is carrying pen hard here, so if I did the same thing for this meta subclassed build, I'd lose ~300 WD and gained ~6% crit chance + full pen. That is still significantly less than PTS Sorc.
So, please show me a subclassed build that can reach these values.
See, you do not have to sub Assassination to reach good crit values, yes I have only 44 chc and 107 chd, i traded here for far more resitances. As far comparing you have to consider Ardent as it is THE enabler line for infinite sustain/Block and squezzing more damage into a single gcd.
I already told you in an other thread you can run the addon to avoid Bonk/Corro so thats for slapping PvE folks around.
At that point I really do not know what you want to continue to argue about. Pure Sorc will now be able to compete against a subclass build.....thats the point of the masteries?!2 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Went to Imperial City on PTS to test max stat values, so Battle Spirit is already accounted for. I'm in basic Order's Wrath/Rally/Monomyth/Kena, 2h/Ice staff:
That's:
- 7726 WD
- 33.4k stam
- 16.9k mag
- 50.9% crit chance
- 146% crit damage
- 7587 pen before Onslaught
- 31.6k HP
- 34.7k resists
- 3.5k crit resist.
Here's a meta Animal/Asssassination/Storm build with Order's Wrath/Rally/Mono/Balorgh, DW/SnB. Stats are maxed with 500 Balorgh ult:
That's:
- 6458 WD with 500 Balorgh
- 24.8k stam
- 16.3k mag
- 49.7% crit chance
- 135% crit damage
- 26673 pen with 500 Balorgh
- 28.5k HP
- 28.6k resists
- 3.8k crit resist (back bar only)
This meta subclassed build has:
- 1268 less WD at full Balorgh stacks
- 8.6k less stam
- 600 less mag
- 1.2% less crit chance
- 11% less crit damage
- More base pen before Balorgh, but capped at 26.6k, while Onslaught gives full pen regardless of armor values
- 3.1k less HP
- 6k less resists
The only thing this subclassed build has more is crit resist and stam/mag recoveries. Guess what? Sorc DOES NOT need to build into recovery at all on PTS, thereby allowing it to push for extreme stat values. No subclassed build in the game other than Ardent Flame can do this, and even then, you will still not be able to reach these values.
Onslaught is carrying pen hard here, so if I did the same thing for this meta subclassed build, I'd lose ~300 WD and gained ~6% crit chance + full pen. That is still significantly less than PTS Sorc.
So, please show me a subclassed build that can reach these values.
Looking at the tests I know why some of the subclassed values are showing under your pure class values:
W/S delta: Your choice in Ult on the Subclassed build carries a lower cost than your Ulti on your pure build which is why you're seeing the difference. Soul Harvest is only 70 Ulti base whereas Onslaught & temporal both are 150; that's more than double which is going to greatly impact Balorgh. You got Pen but not the W/S.
On your pure-class run we can see Major Brutality was active and applying to your stats but for the subclassed run it doesn't seem to be there, maybe you didn't proc the Netch? That's going to affect the subclassed damage values too.
The delta in the resists between your pure build and your subclassed build are affected by pots. You used resist pots on your pure build but chose not to on your subclass test.
The other thing I notice too is the duration of each test. The pure class run was 21 seconds of combat while the subclass run was 44 seconds, more than twice as long. Not that either are a bad time but when we're talking about measures over time (what per second measures are), then, generally, the longer the duration the lower the values progress until the settle out at a true average. Both tests should run an equal time frame for real per second comparison, especially when using a set like Balorgh that's very front heavy.
If I look at the subclass data Incap is just under half way down on the list of damage outputs which tells me it was cast early in the test, when Balorgh would have ramped up the values and then progressively declined.
If you had you proc'd Balorgh with a higher cost Ult like Thrive In Chaos (which is a common skill), hit the resistance pots, & applied Major Brutality, and run both tests for a similar amount of time then the numbers out of the subclassed build would be a lot different.
It's not that the tests are bad but if they had been equivalent tests that held up under someone actually reading them then there would be no question but when data doesn't line up it sizzles out.
And those points make sense because nobody here is going to pretend that subclassed isn't the meta, that would just be ridiculous. We all know it is. There's varying degrees of subclass-meta and some different ways to approach it but, overall, it's the same thing; a subclassed crit focused build.
And yes, there are some niche builds out there that deliver strong on power, I have one that does. But that doesn't mean that it's meta-equivalent or is near-unkillable. Yeah I can run leaderboards and have plenty of receipts but I've also admitted multiple times that I'm not near what top end meta potential is so despite many builds being powerful, that's not to say that they are or should be the barometer for what we're setting passives for everyone at.Edited by NxJoeyD on 14 May 2026 06:551 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,4060 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.
Good. Graciously assuming that would somehow be feasible, you can now tell me how much time that leaves you for a proper rotation with kill potential.
What do you mean? that's just casting the skill. Subclassed builds can hit high crit chance without having to actively proc that through rotation. Like I mentioned before, the Assassination skill line all by itself will give you 35% or more crit chance without having to activate anything.
Puncturing Sweep is just an example of passive healing while dealing damage, there's also Burning Embers and Flame Lash, both of which are popular amongst the subclassed builds. Blood Craze can deliver a crit HoT tick in PvP of around 1.6k and a player can apply that to as many targets as they want, there's no cap on the heal.
It's basically the reason why so many people have been complaining about the crit meta in PvP, subclassing made that a problem.
If crit modifiers had a hard cap in PvP rather than the soft cap then none of this would really be an issue and CoE in it's current state would be broken. But when we're saying that pure-class, non-crit focused class builds are supposed to have a competitive chance against subclassed builds that are delivering numbers that are sky high, then the passives needed need to be as strong
The point is how easily a certain value of healing can be generated. Getting to pump out Jabs every second on 1-2 targets that take unmitigated damage is a factual impossibility to begin with, not to mention that it won't really achieve much. Giving the equivalent healing value to an entirely passive guaranteed proc that can be triggered off any action is just outclassing other passive and many active heals by orders of magnitude.
You listed Jabs as one of several tools of HPS pure Sorc can't utilize. But if you think about it that way, Sorc will get rewarded every GCD for every menial action with the same passive value, for a which a Templar would have to be jabbing 2 guys non-stop. So one class has to lock themselves into their signature passive heal move without achieving anything, while the other practically receives better value nearly without drawback.
I have the impression that you are either dramatically undervaluing the convenience of the proc condition of CoE, the numeric values of CoE BM, the fully passive nature of the ability, and the minimal opportunity cost. It isn't a question of whether two instances of Blood Craze could reach a similar value, as the opportunity cost for both effects is completely different. You'd need two targets without purges, spend 2 GCDs with associated Stam cost within melee range, dedicate 1 bar slot, commit to a weapon type for it, and make room for a slow ticking DoT (which is not a guaranteed fit on all setups). Not to mention that Sorc has the ability to utilize both sources (applies to many other heal sources). It is a layer of passive HPS that no other class can emulate with the same effectiveness. Yes, some classes can proc passive heals, but the frequency and magnitude are in a different league.
If something is trivially easy to use, guaranteed, and requires no commitment, it can't be better than tools that require much more commitment and user effort.Edited by Vaqual on 14 May 2026 07:430 -
acanca✭✭✭There is no point in arguing anymore. We all know how busted it is and will abuse it come next patch or we'll continue to do badly on a busted class because we refuse to adapt our build or playstyle.
Just as an example some people stuck in 2024 meta still think wield soul with anchorites cruelty is a meta dot meanwhile there is a sticky dot in game that can proc up to 8 status effects with additional proc damages in 10 seconds with a single cast and does more dps by itself than vatesh ice in signet meta. Obviously if you expect the meta to adapt to your playstyle you'll find it lacking0 -
Dracane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Went to Imperial City on PTS to test max stat values, so Battle Spirit is already accounted for. I'm in basic Order's Wrath/Rally/Monomyth/Kena, 2h/Ice staff:
That's:
- 7726 WD
- 33.4k stam
- 16.9k mag
- 50.9% crit chance
- 146% crit damage
- 7587 pen before Onslaught
- 31.6k HP
- 34.7k resists
- 3.5k crit resist.
Here's a meta Animal/Asssassination/Storm build with Order's Wrath/Rally/Mono/Balorgh, DW/SnB. Stats are maxed with 500 Balorgh ult:
That's:
- 6458 WD with 500 Balorgh
- 24.8k stam
- 16.3k mag
- 49.7% crit chance
- 135% crit damage
- 26673 pen with 500 Balorgh
- 28.5k HP
- 28.6k resists
- 3.8k crit resist (back bar only)
This meta subclassed build has:
- 1268 less WD at full Balorgh stacks
- 8.6k less stam
- 600 less mag
- 1.2% less crit chance
- 11% less crit damage
- More base pen before Balorgh, but capped at 26.6k, while Onslaught gives full pen regardless of armor values
- 3.1k less HP
- 6k less resists
The only thing this subclassed build has more is crit resist and stam/mag recoveries. Guess what? Sorc DOES NOT need to build into recovery at all on PTS, thereby allowing it to push for extreme stat values. No subclassed build in the game other than Ardent Flame can do this, and even then, you will still not be able to reach these values.
Onslaught is carrying pen hard here, so if I did the same thing for this meta subclassed build, I'd lose ~300 WD and gained ~6% crit chance + full pen. That is still significantly less than PTS Sorc.
So, please show me a subclassed build that can reach these values.
Thank you. Very insightful again.
Yet stats are deceptive and only half the truth. Stat power helps, but in the end abilities win the game, and Sorc has no innately big winner skills that draw particular attention.
Your build heavily clutches on the broken Blood for Blood interaction and hopes that the Onslaught window wins the game. Both of these are not even Sorc skills. Not like it really matters whether they are or not, but it goes to show that other classes, especially subclassed, have a more powerful line up. You win often, but let us not pretend that you always or overwhelmingly often win. Based on Riften at least this cannot be said.
From all I saw, it did not look overpowering and was equally matched by other pure classes, and subclassed build have far stronger skill combination to make up for any small stat difference there may exist. You are exceedingly knowing and skilled which helps you weather many storms, and so this concerns me not too much.
I will attempt to recreate your setup today and look around a bit for myself.Auri-El is my lord,
Trinimac my ward,
and Magnus my mind.1 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,4060 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.
Good. Graciously assuming that would somehow be feasible, you can now tell me how much time that leaves you for a proper rotation with kill potential.
What do you mean? that's just casting the skill. Subclassed builds can hit high crit chance without having to actively proc that through rotation. Like I mentioned before, the Assassination skill line all by itself will give you 35% or more crit chance without having to activate anything.
Puncturing Sweep is just an example of passive healing while dealing damage, there's also Burning Embers and Flame Lash, both of which are popular amongst the subclassed builds. Blood Craze can deliver a crit HoT tick in PvP of around 1.6k and a player can apply that to as many targets as they want, there's no cap on the heal.
It's basically the reason why so many people have been complaining about the crit meta in PvP, subclassing made that a problem.
If crit modifiers had a hard cap in PvP rather than the soft cap then none of this would really be an issue and CoE in it's current state would be broken. But when we're saying that pure-class, non-crit focused class builds are supposed to have a competitive chance against subclassed builds that are delivering numbers that are sky high, then the passives needed need to be as strong
The point is how easily a certain value of healing can be generated. Getting to pump out Jabs every second on 1-2 targets that take unmitigated damage is a factual impossibility to begin with, not to mention that it won't really achieve much. Giving the equivalent healing value to an entirely passive guaranteed proc that can be triggered off any action is just outclassing other passive and many active heals by orders of magnitude.
You listed Jabs as one of several tools of HPS pure Sorc can't utilize. But if you think about it that way, Sorc will get rewarded every GCD for every menial action with the same passive value, for a which a Templar would have to be jabbing 2 guys non-stop. So one class has to lock themselves into their signature passive heal move without achieving anything, while the other practically receives better value nearly without drawback.
I have the impression that you are either dramatically undervaluing the convenience of the proc condition of CoE, the numeric values of CoE BM, the fully passive nature of the ability, and the minimal opportunity cost. It isn't a question of whether two instances of Blood Craze could reach a similar value, as the opportunity cost for both effects is completely different. You'd need two targets without purges, spend 2 GCDs with associated Stam cost within melee range, dedicate 1 bar slot, commit to a weapon type for it, and make room for a slow ticking DoT (which is not a guaranteed fit on all setups). Not to mention that Sorc has the ability to utilize both sources (applies to many other heal sources). It is a layer of passive HPS that no other class can emulate with the same effectiveness. Yes, some classes can proc passive heals, but the frequency and magnitude are in a different league.
If something is trivially easy to use, guaranteed, and requires no commitment, it can't be better than tools that require much more commitment and user effort.
The point was that other classes, but more importantly subclasses builds, could readily synergize solid healing and damage output, something Sorc traditionally couldn’t do with any meaningful values within the class. These passives enable that.
The ease of the passive alone doesn’t constitute a break. There are a lot of skills or actions in ESO that are relatively easy and powerful.
You’re right, it would absolutely take more work on the part of a Temp to proc persistent healing out of Puncturing Strikes and it’s not realistic to think it’s going to occur with every cast. But if we’re going to be realistic then even with the ease of CoE it’s not scaling to excessive values in a PvP scenario where average 7k to 9k dps bursts and high bursts of 12k to 15k are commonplace.
If the realistic values out of CoE, non crit, are going to scale around 2k HPS at least a majority of the time, that’s still not going to single handedly mitigate the amounts of damage coming in. A Sorc is still going to have to utilize a dedicated head.
CoE will allow for a Sorc to replace a skill or gear set with another opportunity given that it is a strong passive heal and that’s really a big part of the selling point.
Stam Sorcs might feel that their skills are fine, despite 50% of their skills on average coming from weapon & world skills but Mag Sorcs can’t say the same. A Mag Sorc in PvP isn’t going to synergize with Bound Armaments even though they’ll compelled to slot it; same goes for Dark Exchange or the better morph of Crystal Weapon.
So if having to slot skills that aren’t going to align well means the tradeoff of not having to slot additional mitigation skills or sets that’s a reasonable tradeoff.2 -
Vaqual✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Agreed, but as @Dracane said and I also agree with, the high numbers are based on crit modifiers.
And is that a problem?Pure-Sorcs aren’t inherently a crit class. Sure, Sorcs can increase crit modifiers but they’re not going to do so as effectively as subclassed builds do.
In realistic terms, a 30k health pure-Sorc in PvP with an, in the ballpark, 35% crit chance is going to (consistently) pull BM healing, during the course of PvP combat, that’s no stronger than what subclassed builds can already achieve now; and that’s who these passives are supposed to enable Sorcs to compete with.
I am currently sitting at 50.9% crit chance front bar and 43.7% crit chance back bar. I also have 33.4k max stam, 7.9k weapon damage, 158% crit damage, and 10k base pen. Can you achieve these stats with subclassed builds?Subclassed builds can also stack heals just like a Sorc can in this case, so when we boil it down, yeah, it’s a strong heal but not a PvP broken heal.
Let's just stop it there mate. I don't think you have been on PTS at all if this is your stance. I honestly cannot be bothered arguing with you at all.
Like this is literally impossible. It's hard to have an objective discussion about balance when everything you've said does not make sense from what I've been testing on PTS. Just show up on PTS and see it with your own eyes. I'm done discussing here.
I have better resitances ~33% at 6.6k weapon damage while my other values are roughly the same. Thanks to HoF I have infinite sustain and busted mobilty due to stormcalling and 50% projectile reduction from wings. HoF getting buffed will provide a comparable hot compared to CoE. It ll be easy to run Armor pots and then surpass your given damage value by allocating different mundus and/or Armor weights.
So plz stop spreading missinformation pure Sorc will now magically will be better than a subclass build.
Exactly.
Some people think CoE is going to result in some PvP breaking amount of healing, but when compared to what's out there it really isn't.
My subclassed NB toon that's really a joke character consistently runs 4.5k HPS, in PvP, and without any Vitality buffs or running Monomyth, that's just base HPS ticks. That's the same value that others have gotten in PTS testing without CoE's contribution.
If we factor in the heal component that's available through numerous skills we can subclass like, Lash or Jabs, then the total HPS amounts realized via subclassed builds is on par or greater than pure-sors with CoE.
And now go calculate how many realistically geared targets you have to hit with jabs, on a PvP appropriate build, every single second to get the same value CoE provides on a completely unrestricted rotation (maybe not accounting for blocking, shields and movement). Or better yet, test it.
That's easy. Assuming a W/S of around 6.5k and only 50% crit rate .. at 3 strikes per target and up to 6 targets, per cast, with an assumed 40% total damage mitigation and accounting for BS then: 21,533 base output per player (assumes 2 crits) > 10,767 cut by Battle Spirit > 6,460 net damage to target after 40% mitigation.
6,4060 * .25 = 1,615 heal per player x2 = 3,293
Since aggressive testing showed a roughly 2.6k HPS (with crits) from Blood Magic with CoE then I would need to hit only 2 players to see a heal of 3,293 per cast.
Given the skill has a 0.8 channel time, even though the skill yields a somewhat higher heal value than Blood Magic buffed with CoE, the channel time slows Sweep down.
Good. Graciously assuming that would somehow be feasible, you can now tell me how much time that leaves you for a proper rotation with kill potential.
What do you mean? that's just casting the skill. Subclassed builds can hit high crit chance without having to actively proc that through rotation. Like I mentioned before, the Assassination skill line all by itself will give you 35% or more crit chance without having to activate anything.
Puncturing Sweep is just an example of passive healing while dealing damage, there's also Burning Embers and Flame Lash, both of which are popular amongst the subclassed builds. Blood Craze can deliver a crit HoT tick in PvP of around 1.6k and a player can apply that to as many targets as they want, there's no cap on the heal.
It's basically the reason why so many people have been complaining about the crit meta in PvP, subclassing made that a problem.
If crit modifiers had a hard cap in PvP rather than the soft cap then none of this would really be an issue and CoE in it's current state would be broken. But when we're saying that pure-class, non-crit focused class builds are supposed to have a competitive chance against subclassed builds that are delivering numbers that are sky high, then the passives needed need to be as strong
The point is how easily a certain value of healing can be generated. Getting to pump out Jabs every second on 1-2 targets that take unmitigated damage is a factual impossibility to begin with, not to mention that it won't really achieve much. Giving the equivalent healing value to an entirely passive guaranteed proc that can be triggered off any action is just outclassing other passive and many active heals by orders of magnitude.
You listed Jabs as one of several tools of HPS pure Sorc can't utilize. But if you think about it that way, Sorc will get rewarded every GCD for every menial action with the same passive value, for a which a Templar would have to be jabbing 2 guys non-stop. So one class has to lock themselves into their signature passive heal move without achieving anything, while the other practically receives better value nearly without drawback.
I have the impression that you are either dramatically undervaluing the convenience of the proc condition of CoE, the numeric values of CoE BM, the fully passive nature of the ability, and the minimal opportunity cost. It isn't a question of whether two instances of Blood Craze could reach a similar value, as the opportunity cost for both effects is completely different. You'd need two targets without purges, spend 2 GCDs with associated Stam cost within melee range, dedicate 1 bar slot, commit to a weapon type for it, and make room for a slow ticking DoT (which is not a guaranteed fit on all setups). Not to mention that Sorc has the ability to utilize both sources (applies to many other heal sources). It is a layer of passive HPS that no other class can emulate with the same effectiveness. Yes, some classes can proc passive heals, but the frequency and magnitude are in a different league.
If something is trivially easy to use, guaranteed, and requires no commitment, it can't be better than tools that require much more commitment and user effort.
The point was that other classes, but more importantly subclasses builds, could readily synergize solid healing and damage output, something Sorc traditionally couldn’t do with any meaningful values within the class. These passives enable that.
The ease of the passive alone doesn’t constitute a break. There are a lot of skills or actions in ESO that are relatively easy and powerful.
You’re right, it would absolutely take more work on the part of a Temp to proc persistent healing out of Puncturing Strikes and it’s not realistic to think it’s going to occur with every cast. But if we’re going to be realistic then even with the ease of CoE it’s not scaling to excessive values in a PvP scenario where average 7k to 9k dps bursts and high bursts of 12k to 15k are commonplace.
If the realistic values out of CoE, non crit, are going to scale around 2k HPS at least a majority of the time, that’s still not going to single handedly mitigate the amounts of damage coming in. A Sorc is still going to have to utilize a dedicated head.
CoE will allow for a Sorc to replace a skill or gear set with another opportunity given that it is a strong passive heal and that’s really a big part of the selling point.
Stam Sorcs might feel that their skills are fine, despite 50% of their skills on average coming from weapon & world skills but Mag Sorcs can’t say the same. A Mag Sorc in PvP isn’t going to synergize with Bound Armaments even though they’ll compelled to slot it; same goes for Dark Exchange or the better morph of Crystal Weapon.
So if having to slot skills that aren’t going to align well means the tradeoff of not having to slot additional mitigation skills or sets that’s a reasonable tradeoff.
I agree with the theory behind it, but the disconnect comes from the assumption that there is a single ability or set that can match the value of CoE in a natural and healthy setting. We are talking about at least 1 bar slot + x GCDs when it comes to abilities. And there isn't a single set that can reach this value, not even Hist under ideal conditions. If anything had just the associated bar space cost without costing constant GCDs maybe it would be negotiable. Only Surge fits this requirement, which is ironically in the same toolkit. Siphoning Strikes and Lotus are at best going to reach half effectiveness, even when meeting the 1/s tick frequency. All other means of compensation ask for at least also a bar slot and constant expenditure of GCDs, including associated costs. The value this effectively enables in PvP is immense. Would you find it it makes sense to encounter a NB, who is running Siphoning Attacks twice on their bar? Because that would still be less value than a 40ish k HP Sorc will see from CoE, without dedicating a single slot.0