Three-Sided Deathmatch

LittleLionLeone · May 5

This thread gives me a headache. What are we even doing?

xylena · May 5

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

This thread gives me a headache. What are we even doing?

100% chance it's 1 guy on 2 accounts babbling incoherent nonsense to himself

0% chance the mods care about this thread

Moonspawn · May 6

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

Maitsukas · May 7

Moonspawn wrote: »

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches? I don't think they even played the 4v4v4 Domination that was available recently, since they avoided all responses regarding that.

Haki_7 · May 7

@ZOS_Kevin , when Battlegrounds were 3-sided, was the MMR being reset every week?

[snip]

xylena · May 7

Maitsukas wrote: »

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches? I don't think they even played the 4v4v4 Domination that was available recently, since they avoided all responses regarding that.

I've been following this strange phenomenon for a couple years now.

From what I've gathered, his thesis is that 2s specifically obligate pug stomping as the optimal strat, while 3s do not. He writes a lot of words and uses a lot of grandiose phrasing like "The 739 Critical Flaws of BGs" either naively mistaking this for substance, or deliberately trying to scam us. At no point is there ever any coherent support for his thesis or connection to the list spam.

My read is he's a healer main who misses when 1 healer could carry in 4v4v4 while never being threatened (because anyone who tries to focus him down gets 3rd partied). He's a decent healer but seems to resent having to actually fight through enemy aggro in 8v8.

And yes, 100% chance Haki and Moonspawn are the same person on 2 accounts.

Demonwolff · May 8

Haki_7 wrote: »

What is the meaning of ''zero damage ball carries'' and ''base jumping''?

Zero Damage ball carries are where the ball bugs out and fails to damage the carrier at all. Base jumping is where the Ball Carrier is able to "magically" return to their spawn. I didn't mention the one where the ball disappears and you cant see the person carrying it lol

CoolAsh · May 9

How about separating the Deathmatch mode from Battlegrounds and turning it into a dedicated Arena mode? Whether it’s 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, or even 4v4v4… ZOS could run each different team size as its own separate rotating activity.

Haki_7 · May 13

@Maitsukas wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches?

The matches I'm posting were so incredibly lopsided that their outcome might as well have been predetermined from the start. Here:

Domination (1-100):

1-10

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11-20

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

21-30

21.

22.

23.

24.

25.

26.

27.

28.

29.

30.

31-40

31.

32.

33.

34.

35.

36.

37.

38.

39.

40.

41-50

41.

42.

43.

44.

45.

46.

47.

48.

49.

50.

51-60

51.

52.

53.

54.

55.

56.

57.

58.

59.

60.

61-70

61.

62.

63.

64.

65.

66.

67.

68.

69.

70.

71-80

71.

72.

73.

74.

75.

76.

77.

78.

79.

80.

81-90

81.

82.

83.

84.

85.

86.

87.

88.

89.

90.

91-100

91.

92.

93.

94.

95.

96.

97.

98.

99.

100.

It simply wasn't possible to do this when BGs were 3-sided. Not in this quantity. Why do you think that is?

moo_2021 · May 13

Decimus wrote: »

...3-way BGs are fundamentally flawed. Two teams fight, one team runs to empty objectives - wins with zero kills.

That doesn't mean it's bad. You don't have to win, or make more than 0 kills. When I can't kill, I swapped build to do objective. When I can't do that either, I annoyed them to death like suicide runs on base.

3-way was flawed but most of time we can meaningfuly contribute in some way. Can't do that with 2 teams when it's lopsided, and it's almost always lopsided.

Haki_7 · May 16

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Were your instant queue matches good quality or not, or are you going to provide zero actionable feedback about the thing you want?

@Avran_Sylt and @Maitsukas here are the first 20 matches I played during the 3-sided event:

4v4v4 Domination (1-20)

1-10

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11-20

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

Let me know if you'd like me to keep posting, but I don't really see the point. Even though these matches were objectively more enjoyable and competitive than 2-sided, they were still plagued by the obvious problems with obvious solutions we already knew would be there.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · May 16

I will always agree that 3 teams are better. The overpowered state of combat is the real culprit in destroying BG. Ive said this before but its Subclass. It didn't used to be this bad. My Guilds used to play not just BG but also Cyrodiil. They have and will play Vengeance. Its not that the character refreshes are overpowered either, its that Subclass is using them completely unchecked. Those are NOT Dragonknights out there. Its Subclass. They will exploit the best qualities of every single class until Zos removes this awful cherry picking system and restores rules and sanity to combat.

I barely play BG anymore and its primarily due to the fact none of my friends will. Its so bad they absolutely refuse to do it and its all they liked to play for years. Instead of running BG and Cyrodiil events as we always did, they message me outside of the game asking me if I need anything. They wont even log in unless the Guilds need something or Im asking them. They are all old enough in Eso to remember the 3 teams from the old days. They literally ran 3 matches with the return of it and said they won't play it anymore. Its combat. And Subclass. Something needs to be done about it.

Haki_7 · May 17

@CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote:

I will always agree that 3 teams are better.

The event showed everyone the truth.

Two-sided: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8450160/#Comment_8450160

Three-sided: Despite its problems, we had instant queues, almost no spawncamping, unpredictable outcomes and far more engaging fights. They even wrote a song about the wonderful time we shared. I call it ''Three sides, one love'':

(Intro – spoken)
Ooooh yeah…
Deathmatch, baby…
Voken on the Mic
Rooski on guitar-ooski
Ricky Base on the Base!
Jejunum on the jeju-drums
Attacko and Ozma on the horns

What?

Play that ***!

Verse 1 (smooth, groovy)
Logged in and the vibe felt right
No wait in line, just you and I tonight
Four by four by four, we dance in sync
Three hearts beatin’ on the battleground brink

Storm Lords shimmer like stars above
Firedrakes burn but it feel like love
Pit daemons move with a velvet groove
Every clash got that rhythm you can’t refuse

⸻

Pre-Chorus (lift, harmonies)
No rush, no breaks, just flow so sweet
Every round got us back on beat
Side by side in the neon glow
Three teams deep but we steal the show

⸻

Chorus (funky, catchy, playful)
Ooo—we love that 4v4v4
Three sides, one vibe, keep comin’ back for more
No queue, just you, let the good times roll
Deathmatch got a hold on my soul

Hey—spin me round that battlefield floor
Win or lose, baby, I still want more
Perfect night, can’t ignore
We in love with that 4v4v4

⸻

Verse 2 (playful, rhythmic)
Captain picks got the energy tight
Every squad feel just right tonight
No one runnin’, no one outclassed
Just sweet back-and-forth, make the moment last

Slide to the left when the pressure rise
Fall, get up, still feel alive
Every clash like a lover’s spark
Three-way dance in the after dark

⸻

Bridge (breakdown, soulful)
Don’t need no crown, don’t need no fame
Just you and me in this perfect game
Round and round, we never get bored
Hearts locked in to that three-side war

(background vocals)
Love that… love that… battleground…

⸻

Final Chorus (big, celebratory)
Ooo—we love that 4v4v4
Three sides, one vibe, keep comin’ back for more
No queue, just you, let the good times roll
Deathmatch got a hold on my soul

Hey—feel that groove, let it take control
Every fight make the whole world slow
Perfect night we can’t ignore
We in love with that 4v4v4

⸻

(Outro – fade with bass + harmonies)
Yeah… Deathmatch forever…
Three sides… one love..

Not sure I can post the suno link here, but perhaps I can PM whoever wants it, so they can sing along.

Moonspawn · May 17

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Maitsukas wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

@LittleLionLeone wrote:

What are we even doing?

We are discussing the game-breaking problems that plague Battlegrounds.

And what exactly is the unexplained point of someone posting scores from completely random BG matches?

It simply wasn't possible to do this when BGs were 3-sided. Not in this quantity. Why do you think that is?

I got my answer.

barney2525 · May 18

They just need 20 person battle royale. Every person for themselves. 5 lives and you are out.

No terrain. wide open spaces.

Last person standing

Moonspawn · May 18

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

Were your instant queue matches good quality or not, or are you going to provide zero actionable feedback about the thing you want?

@Avran_Sylt and @Maitsukas here are the first 20 matches I played during the 3-sided event:

4v4v4 Domination (1-20)
1-10
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

11-20
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.

Let me know if you'd like me to keep posting, but I don't really see the point. Even though these matches were objectively more enjoyable and competitive than 2-sided, they were still plagued by the obvious problems with obvious solutions we already knew would be there.

Speaking of gathering samples to compare 4v4v4 against the horrors of 8v8, will ZOS be repeating the 3-sided domination event the day after tomorrow?

moo_2021 · May 19

3-sided events where?? PTS?

Avran_Sylt · May 20

3-sided Relic Capture 1

Zero chance at gameplay, purple got bored of farming our team at base and didn't care for their own objective. Red had an unkillable templar perma bashing their relic. Time ran out.

Nerf shattered path signet and make streak only stun if you're pureclass sorc.

moo_2021 · May 21

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

3-sided Relic Capture 1

Zero chance at gameplay, purple got bored of farming our team at base and didn't care for their own objective. Red had an unkillable templar perma bashing their relic. Time ran out.

Nerf shattered path signet and make streak only stun if you're pureclass sorc.

You could pull the templar or steal purple relic and take the long way back from other side.

I had 6 or 8 games already, lost more but it's fun and nice to see real players back. On my last I stunned everyone in a pretty good team to cover my mate's retreat with relic, and we won right when I was killed!

moo_2021 · May 24

I don't understand why anyone complaining about two sides still play it while three sides is on.

Avran_Sylt · May 24

moo_2021 wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone complaining about two sides still play it while three sides is on.

Well, assuming that the @Ha'ki PC NA alt account isn't an imposter, they do play 3s (but who knows how many good one-piece eso pvp players there are). Which might actually be why they never show their actual name in any of their screenshots, given they play cross-servers too.

Moonspawn · May 24

Haki_7 wrote: »

@Avran_Sylt wrote:

Though I too still like the larger moshpit of 8v8, neither addresses buildcrafting/MMR issues. But to be honest it's going to be a cluster with all the class reworks in the next few years.

Everyone wants better matchmaking, but expecting it to save Battlegrounds has been yielding catastrophic results for nearly a decade.

A decade?

Avran_Sylt · May 25

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Speaking of gathering samples to compare 4v4v4 against the horrors of 8v8, will ZOS be repeating the 3-sided domination event the day after tomorrow?

I understand that anything is better than letting Battlegrounds be ruined by the critical flaws of 2-sided, but why would they repeat last month's Domination event?

Chaosball, no way of losing:

Crazy King, no way of losing. Opponents were unable to reach the flags:

Domination 1 and 2, no way of losing:

Destruction of Battlegrounds Chapter 199: Waiting 16 minutes for a lopsided match (Solo 8v8 PC/EU)
https://youtu.be/ke4prrJuH5E

Relic, no way of winning. My healing successfully extended the nightmare for as long as possible. Mission accomplished:

Deathmatch 1, no way of losing. Instead of being forced to come after me, Green-2 had no choice but to ditch his team to go around looking for newcomers. @Avran_Sylt This is a good example of how the first flaw of 2-sided ruins even balanced matches:

Deathmatch 2, no way of losing:

Where are you getting these matches?

8v8 hasn't been up for almost a week.

Edit: in what world is a team with five 1m damage pushers equal to a team with only 2? Also, since we can't see the amount of self-healing done, your stats are useless.

Cooperharley · May 25

I would like to see three-sided Deathmatch return as a permanent option, or at least as a regular scheduled queue.

I do not think 4v4v4 is perfect, and I do not think it magically solves matchmaking or combat balance. Third-partying is real, and some objective modes have their own problems. But for Deathmatch specifically, three teams often creates a healthier match than a lopsided two-team game.

In 8v8, when one side is clearly stronger, the match can feel decided almost immediately. The weaker team gets farmed, spawncamped, or gives up, and there is no meaningful second-place goal. In 4v4v4, the third team at least creates pressure on the leader, gives weaker players more chances to reposition, and makes the match less predictable.

That matters a lot when the BG population is not large enough for perfect matchmaking. If the matchmaker cannot reliably create two equal teams, then a three-team format can soften the damage by giving the match more moving parts.

I would not remove two-sided BGs for people who prefer that format. But I do think solo players should have access to a 4v4v4 Deathmatch queue. Keep the objective modes separate and tune them individually, because Chaosball, Relic, Domination, and Crazy King all have different problems. But Deathmatch is the mode where three-sided play makes the strongest case.

So my vote would be: keep two-sided for players who want a more direct competitive format, bring back three-sided Deathmatch for players who found it more fun and less predetermined, and keep working on matchmaking/combat balance either way.

Avran_Sylt · May 25

Cooperharley wrote: »

I would like to see three-sided Deathmatch return as a permanent option, or at least as a regular scheduled queue.

I do not think 4v4v4 is perfect, and I do not think it magically solves matchmaking or combat balance. Third-partying is real, and some objective modes have their own problems. But for Deathmatch specifically, three teams often creates a healthier match than a lopsided two-team game.

In 8v8, when one side is clearly stronger, the match can feel decided almost immediately. The weaker team gets farmed, spawncamped, or gives up, and there is no meaningful second-place goal. In 4v4v4, the third team at least creates pressure on the leader, gives weaker players more chances to reposition, and makes the match less predictable.

That matters a lot when the BG population is not large enough for perfect matchmaking. If the matchmaker cannot reliably create two equal teams, then a three-team format can soften the damage by giving the match more moving parts.

I would not remove two-sided BGs for people who prefer that format. But I do think solo players should have access to a 4v4v4 Deathmatch queue. Keep the objective modes separate and tune them individually, because Chaosball, Relic, Domination, and Crazy King all have different problems. But Deathmatch is the mode where three-sided play makes the strongest case.

So my vote would be: keep two-sided for players who want a more direct competitive format, bring back three-sided Deathmatch for players who found it more fun and less predetermined, and keep working on matchmaking/combat balance either way.

4v4v4 Deathmatch with "unlimited" lives per person? Or the stock system present in 4v4 comp.

Moonspawn · May 26

Haki_7 wrote: »

Moonspawn wrote: »

Speaking of gathering samples to compare 4v4v4 against the horrors of 8v8, will ZOS be repeating the 3-sided domination event the day after tomorrow?

I understand that anything is better than letting Battlegrounds be ruined by the critical flaws of 2-sided, but why would they repeat last month's Domination event?

I was bamboozled by the May Survival Guide.

Haki_7 · May 28

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

@ZOS_Kevin there's been some confusion about a couple of changes that were made in update 44.

Considering what you wrote above, can you please try to find out if the MMR was being reset weekly before U44, when Battlegrounds were still 3-sided?

This is important. It might explain why queue times are so much longer in 2-sided:

[snip]

Moonspawn · May 28

Haki_7 wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665758/pts-patch-notes-v10-2-0

@ZOS_Kevin there's been some confusion about a couple of changes that were made in update 44.

Considering what you wrote above, can you please try to find out if the MMR was being reset weekly before U44, when Battlegrounds were still 3-sided?

This is important. It might explain why queue times are so much longer in 2-sided:

On that note, how were queue times during the 3-sided Capture the Relic event?

moo_2021 · May 30

Moonspawn wrote: »

On that note, how were queue times during the 3-sided Capture the Relic event?

Nearly instant even in morning and afternoon

Moonspawn · June 1

@moo_2021 wrote:

Moonspawn wrote: »

On that note, how were queue times during the 3-sided Capture the Relic event?

Nearly instant even in morning and afternoon

@Haki_7 wrote:

Lightning fast. Similar to what happened during the 3-sided domination event.

Just like in the song.

''Ooo—we love that 4v4v4
Three sides, one vibe, keep comin’ back for more
No queue, just you, let the good times roll
Deathmatch got a hold on my soul''