Conservation of Energy needs to be adjusted for the health of the game

hoangdz · April 28

Before I start voicing my opinion, I want everyone to know that I am a Sorc main, so there are no ill intentions here. While I do love the fact that Sorc is incredibly powerful on the PTS, I am concerned that the Conservation of Energy passive is OP and will result in a broken meta if it goes live. First, I will post my evidence here:

Exhibit A:

Exhibit B:

In Exhibit A, I fought a full damage magblade who did almost 5k DPS. Conservation of Energy's interaction with Blood Magic has allowed me to completely remove Vigor from my build and still comfortably tank that kind of damage. I ended up killing him afterwards with a 1 shot combo.

In Exhibit B, I fought a WW who did over 6k DPS. I did have Vigor, but it was the 3rd top healing in my CMX. Blood Magic did 45.5% of my total healing against that player. We both stalemated after 4 minutes.

Now the problem with Conservation of Energy is that by proccing Blood Magic off every ability with a cost (core combat abilities included), and combined with the HP scaling of Blood Magic passive, you have a class that can stack extremely high HP to inflate the tooltip:

At 46k HP, I am essentially unburstable (you need a 46k burst combo to 1 shot me). With Blood Magic's 5.2k tooltip and proccing off every ability with a cost, I simply cannot die to any setup unless I severely mess up. Now in normal conditions, I would have done zero damage. However, it is not the case on PTS. Due to Font of Power giving me 13% extra WD, the ability to use 3 damage CPs, and the use of Onslaught for full pen, I am able to achieve these offensive stats:

That's 6083 WD, 50% crit chance, 143% crit damage, full pen, and 3 damage CPs. Not only did I not lose damage, but I am now practically unkillable in any normal scenario.

My suggestions for adjustment to Conservation is this:

1) Either remove the interaction with Blood Magic and introduce a fixed heal tooltip upon activating a cost (around 1k - 1.5k) OR making Blood Magic scale off offensive stats only. This ensures that the extreme cases of manipulating this skill are removed, while also providing a decent "heal over time" for people with less experience in PvP
2) Reintroduce the fixed 1k stam and mag value per proc to allow for more fluid game play.

In addition, reduce the scaling requirement of Font of Power to 1500 stam/mag. Sorc is supposed to be a highly mobile class with excellent damage and some self heals. These changes promote this playstyle without turning the class into a face tank one.

Dracane · April 28

I have borne witness while these fights were conducted and can vouch for them to be true.
Here's the thing: This is a build that is easy and logical to replicate, but more importantly, it is very easy to operate. What I first thought was just some extreme high end that hardly matters for the game at large, turns into something trivial and easy with upwards of 40k HP.

Things that offer easy (PASSIVE) survivability + power will be played readifully, as Dragonknight proves these days.

I still think a Blood Magic heal scaling with Max Mag/Stam instead of HP angle could be explored before reaching for static values once again. Something only Sorc has to deal with. Surge, Blood Magic, Dark Deal; all fixed values without offensive stat scaling

In any case, the HP scaling heal of Blood Magic is unhealthy in a meta where stacking 35k and more HP is the norm rather than the exception.

Dracane · April 28

I want to add to this that this also blurs the lines of Sorc was always meant to embody; a mobile, high burst class, not some unkillable health tank that outlasts everything.

hoangdz · April 28

Dracane wrote: »

I have borne witness while these fights were conducted and can vouch for them to be true.
Here's the thing: This is a build that is easy and logical to replicate, but more importantly, it is very easy to operate. What I first thought was just some extreme high end that hardly matters for the game at large, turns into something trivial and easy with upwards of 40k HP.

Things that offer easy (PASSIVE) survivability + power will be played readifully, as Dragonknight proves these days.

I still think a Blood Magic heal scaling with Max Mag/Stam instead of HP angle could be explored before reaching for static values once again. Something only Sorc has to deal with. Surge, Blood Magic, Dark Deal; all fixed values without offensive stat scaling

In any case, the HP scaling heal of Blood Magic is unhealthy in a meta where stacking 35k and more HP is the norm rather than the exception.

I added your blood magic scaling suggestion to the OP

YandereGirlfriend · April 28

Not related but Onslaught/Corrosive/Acuity should be purged from the game.

Allowing a dump-stat to perform at peak efficiency, even under particular conditions, is simply bad design.

MashmalloMan · April 28

How I'd like to see it changed:

Reduce the heal to 50% value for non-Dark Magic abilities.
Only proc from Sorcerer skills instead of anything with a cost.. Sorry WW
With the refresh when better abilities are added/swapped to Dark Magic, consider reducing the base 10% to like 6~8%.
Sustain should be capped at 33% of an abilities cost, but scale by 2% of your max Stam/Mag instead of 1%.

For example, a normal w/s damage proc build with like 25k Stam or Mag would get 500, but this is well below the 33% cap for most abilities. A basic 2295 melee or stam spammable would have the cap reached at 757, so lots of wiggle room here.

For a 40~50k Mag stacker, you would gain 800~1000, a basic ranged magic spammable at 2700 would cap at 891, barely a loss here, but that 800~1000 would still apply for most other abilities that cost higher than 2700.

Some combination of these things with maybe different values would feel like a good place to me. Eg. 3% scaling, but a 25% cap on the ability cost.

Dracane · April 28

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Not related but Onslaught/Corrosive/Acuity should be purged from the game.

Allowing a dump-stat to perform at peak efficiency, even under particular conditions, is simply bad design.

Sort of related. It feeds into a similar lign of problems; this being easy passive power for doing what you are already doing.
ESO is and was at its best when active gameplays dominates the landscape over easy passive compensation.

hoangdz · April 28

Very busted stats. ZOS needs to do something about it

hoangdz · April 28

5.2 HPS without Vigor

My DPS:

vs his DPS:

I'm clearing 4k+ DPS which is very good by live server standards, while an absurd amount of health

Major_Mangle · April 28

Can't wait for another sorc meta...feel like I barely recovered mentally from the hardened ward meta.....

acanca · April 28

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

IncultaWolf · April 28

Everyone was too busy crying nerf ww and this got overlooked, which is ironic because this passive alone was responsible for allowing the werewolf to wreck havoc in duels in the first place. 🙄

hoangdz · April 28

Running the same build but I specced for more damage (3 dmg CPs, 35k stam, 6.4k weapon damage, 143% crit damage, 50% crit chance, full pen):

These are my defensive stats:

Blood Magic is much less powerful, but still top #1 healing:

I actually like @Dracane 's suggestion with the Blood Magic scaling off max stam/max mag. When you have lower HP, it's much less potent and you can still be bursted down.

hoangdz · April 28

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

acanca · April 28

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

Currently sorc has such an insanely good sustain with this passive that none of the other sustain class masteries even come close. Warden restores 125 Magicka and Stamina with its sustain perk for example meanwhile Sorc restores 800 on one stat + 300 on another. Granted warden's is more of a support passive but this level of difference is a bit unfair.

Dk and Sorc shouldnt be this privileged when it comes to healing and sustain

hoangdz · April 28

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

Currently sorc has such an insanely good sustain with this passive that none of the other sustain class masteries even come close. Warden restores 125 Magicka and Stamina with its sustain perk for example meanwhile Sorc restores 800 on one stat + 300 on another. Granted warden's is more of a support passive but this level of difference is a bit unfair.

Dk and Sorc shouldnt be this privileged when it comes to healing and sustain

You seem to forget that Sorc is literally the only class with a full sustain line. It was a class that took full advantage of this and was able to play with sub 900 recovery for maximum damage. It simply isn’t the case anymore when other classes have had their skills updated over the years to provide enough damage for them to use Orzoga sustain food.

There is no reason to touch the sustain part of the passive. For the first time in 7 years I am able to drop Dark Deal from my bar which makes the bar space issue so much less annoying. A Warden does not have this issue because their burst skill conveniently applies Major and Minor Breach. I have to slot Curse AND Ele Sus to achieve the same effect. If you want to nerf the sustain, then I am going to ask for Breach to be removed from Warden, and you’ll feel what it’s like to have bar space issues.

xylena · April 28

Agree that Conservation should not be affected by Max HP in any way whatsoever. Mechanics that reward players for stacking HP need to be confined to the context of PvE tanking.

Yudo · April 28

Healing can be addressed, but sustain should not be touched for this mastery.
I like the exclusion of max hp scaling. In the long run they should address max hp scaling for shielding too.

Turtle_Bot · April 28

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Can't wait for another sorc meta...feel like I barely recovered mentally from the hardened ward meta.....

It's fine, this "sorc meta" people are scared of will be no different than the previous AC + Ass + SC/RL sub-classing meta we had before the DK refresh and won't be any worse than the current DK meta:

Spec bow will be replaced by armaments that deals less damage, stacks fall off much quicker and comes with very mediocre passives that don't buff damage.
Surprise attack will be replaced by twin slashes or dizzy swing (or BfB/AB for a magsorc that wants to try and copy this stamsorc playstyle).
Shulks will be replaced by curse, just with no breach and a much clearer telegraph (and can be cleansed).
Breach will have to come from ele sus (requires a bar slot and back bar ice staff)
There will be no cleanse due to no netch, so expect your debuffs to linger on the sorc.
No incap 20% damage taken debuff.
Lower DPS overall due to missing a lot of the DPS (crit) passives that come from assassination/animal companions (even statics screenshots posted only show 4-4.5k DPS (or 5k dps on the max stam build that is very squishy comparatively) compared to DK pulling 6-6.5k DPS and WW (pre-nerf) pulling 10k+).
Ward will be nowhere in sight because there's nothing buffing it to insane values like there was during U41 (wield soul with shield script would be infinitely better anyway if a sorc wanted to go with shields due to all the utility that can be added to it and that it can be self buffed with major vitality).

If you survived the sub-class meta, you can easily deal with this supposed upcoming stamsorc meta (despite WW and DK looking overall significantly stronger still on PTS outside of specifically survival)

Dracane · April 28

I am happy to see that so many begin to see (or already see) why these Sorc masteries are as significant as they are. The class has too many downsides and problems over what subclassing or other classes offer.

The HP scaling of Blood Magic should be changed certainly, but the rest is either fine as it is, if not a little harsh. I still think Font of Power should have a 1500 stat scaling again instead of 1750, just like originally intended.

acanca · April 28

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

Currently sorc has such an insanely good sustain with this passive that none of the other sustain class masteries even come close. Warden restores 125 Magicka and Stamina with its sustain perk for example meanwhile Sorc restores 800 on one stat + 300 on another. Granted warden's is more of a support passive but this level of difference is a bit unfair.

Dk and Sorc shouldnt be this privileged when it comes to healing and sustain

You seem to forget that Sorc is literally the only class with a full sustain line. It was a class that took full advantage of this and was able to play with sub 900 recovery for maximum damage. It simply isn’t the case anymore when other classes have had their skills updated over the years to provide enough damage for them to use Orzoga sustain food.

There is no reason to touch the sustain part of the passive. For the first time in 7 years I am able to drop Dark Deal from my bar which makes the bar space issue so much less annoying. A Warden does not have this issue because their burst skill conveniently applies Major and Minor Breach. I have to slot Curse AND Ele Sus to achieve the same effect. If you want to nerf the sustain, then I am going to ask for Breach to be removed from Warden, and you’ll feel what it’s like to have bar space issues.

Let's not ignore the heal on skill cast + roll dodge + bash this passive allows too, it is a big part of it. So no, this isnt a purely sustain passive.

In fact its basically identical to Necro's Pound of Flesh except better in basically every way.

And saying this is the only sustain passive doesnt make it ok for the skill to be this strong, the question then becomes why doesn't other classes get a sustain passive.

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery. This passive, on a really unoptomized build with 35k stamina and 20k magicka gives 700 stamina and 400 magicka which is equal to 1400 stam sustain and 800 magicka sustain or an average 1100 sustain.

This is not ok. Yes core of flame also allows DK infinite sustain as this passive offers Sorc but that doesnt make it ok either, both of these needs adjusting in pvp to be even remotely balanced.

VinnyGambini · April 28

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Fully agree to cut this passive in half with battle spirit active, just like other classes passives (nb, plar).

React · April 28

I think they need to make this heal a flat value of 2k, 1k after battle spirit. Then make it proc only on sorc skills, or at the very least only on normal abilities and not core combat functions.

I don't actually hate the idea of a pseudo "heal over time" that rewards you for high APM/using a skill every GCD, but its far too much on the PTS currently.

The sustain can stay. If they're going to give every class its own unique route to achieving infinite sustain, I am fine with letting that play out all the way before asking for the sustain options themselves to be nerfed. Hard to say what their intention is based on some of the crazy numbers we saw with the DK rework and now this pure class pass.

MincMincMinc · April 28

Just gotta point out. We see Zos one week talking about vengeance and performance streamlining etc etc. Then the next week we see them releasing a new system that stacks on the other system doing procs based on other proc effects which trigger off all ticks in the game etc etc.

hoangdz · April 28

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

Currently sorc has such an insanely good sustain with this passive that none of the other sustain class masteries even come close. Warden restores 125 Magicka and Stamina with its sustain perk for example meanwhile Sorc restores 800 on one stat + 300 on another. Granted warden's is more of a support passive but this level of difference is a bit unfair.

Dk and Sorc shouldnt be this privileged when it comes to healing and sustain

You seem to forget that Sorc is literally the only class with a full sustain line. It was a class that took full advantage of this and was able to play with sub 900 recovery for maximum damage. It simply isn’t the case anymore when other classes have had their skills updated over the years to provide enough damage for them to use Orzoga sustain food.

There is no reason to touch the sustain part of the passive. For the first time in 7 years I am able to drop Dark Deal from my bar which makes the bar space issue so much less annoying. A Warden does not have this issue because their burst skill conveniently applies Major and Minor Breach. I have to slot Curse AND Ele Sus to achieve the same effect. If you want to nerf the sustain, then I am going to ask for Breach to be removed from Warden, and you’ll feel what it’s like to have bar space issues.

Let's not ignore the heal on skill cast + roll dodge + bash this passive allows too, it is a big part of it. So no, this isnt a purely sustain passive.

In fact its basically identical to Necro's Pound of Flesh except better in basically every way.

And saying this is the only sustain passive doesnt make it ok for the skill to be this strong, the question then becomes why doesn't other classes get a sustain passive.

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery. This passive, on a really unoptomized build with 35k stamina and 20k magicka gives 700 stamina and 400 magicka which is equal to 1400 stam sustain and 800 magicka sustain or an average 1100 sustain.

This is not ok. Yes core of flame also allows DK infinite sustain as this passive offers Sorc but that doesnt make it ok either, both of these needs adjusting in pvp to be even remotely balanced.

I don't care lol. I've already done the math you just described 3 weeks before the PTS patch actualy dropped. I've already provided 3 objective adjustments for this passive to remove the extremes and still allow for casual players to benefit from. You just want the whole passive nerfed outright. In fact, this is something that Sorc should have gotten as part of their BASE skill line, not sourced from a class mastery passive.

MashmalloMan · April 28

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just gotta point out. We see Zos one week talking about vengeance and performance streamlining etc etc. Then the next week we see them releasing a new system that stacks on the other system doing procs based on other proc effects which trigger off all ticks in the game etc etc.

We get it. You don't like procs or status effects, I'm sorry but I feel like it's all I see you complain about every pts and you've found ways to include it in threads that have nothing to do with it. No offense meant because I ultimately respect your opinion but I'd wager many people disagree with you overall. For example, some of the ideas you've raised about reducing status effects to how they once were are not my brand of fun, and I like "fun".. every element is viable now, whereas for the longest time it was just Flame.

To me, ZOS finally realized they can't gut every single aspect of the game in the name of performance, that ship has sailed and I'm in full support of it or they were going to lose the entire playerbase. The game was stagnated. Not evolving. It felt like it had no real future. They've found a test environment they can really play with instead of messing with the live server experience any time they get a feeling.

I pray for the days where Hurricane and many other abilities like it ticked every second or even every half second instead of the constant over simplification that brought us to U35 and beyond because "hur dur performance". It's a miracle, and it shouldn't be, that DK has 10s dots and Embers. Those are awesome. Hell Sorc has some type of version of implosion back, one of the reasons I mained them 10+ years ago that got ripped away.

If ZOS still treated the game the way they used to, Arcanist, Scribing, DK refresh and all the ones to come next with unique Mastery's would never exist and we'd still be playing "which coloured abilities do you like"?

It's the wild west, let's watch them cook. 2026 has been their best year to date.

Burtan · April 28

This doesn't at all look healthy, even from a Tanking perspective.

In my opinion, this passive should not be limited to Sorcerer skills as others have suggested as this would limit player choice, but rather should be separated from blood magic and have a reduced healing output as OP has suggested.

Either that or a complete rework of this passive into something else.

acanca · April 29

React wrote: »

I think they need to make this heal a flat value of 2k, 1k after battle spirit. Then make it proc only on sorc skills, or at the very least only on normal abilities and not core combat functions.

I don't actually hate the idea of a pseudo "heal over time" that rewards you for high APM/using a skill every GCD, but its far too much on the PTS currently.

The sustain can stay. If they're going to give every class its own unique route to achieving infinite sustain, I am fine with letting that play out all the way before asking for the sustain options themselves to be nerfed. Hard to say what their intention is based on some of the crazy numbers we saw with the DK rework and now this pure class pass.

They will not be giving every class infinite sustain, i can promise you that. Some will be privileged

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Agreed, this passive is too much for pvp.

Sorc's Conservation of Energy is essentially a better Pound of Flesh Necro got but instead of having a base 10% chance to proc it is guaranteed to proc every second, heal for at least as much as Pound of Flesh if not more and also give Sorc close to infinite sustain.

This is way too much. There needs to be a cap put on both the sustain and healing with battle spirit active. Imo easiest way to go would be to cut the sustain and healing in half with battle spirit active and even then this passive would be insanely good.

Eh, I would rather them keep the sustain. Sorc has bar space issues so having this sustain allows it to drop Dark Deal, which is infinitely better overall for the class.

Currently sorc has such an insanely good sustain with this passive that none of the other sustain class masteries even come close. Warden restores 125 Magicka and Stamina with its sustain perk for example meanwhile Sorc restores 800 on one stat + 300 on another. Granted warden's is more of a support passive but this level of difference is a bit unfair.

Dk and Sorc shouldnt be this privileged when it comes to healing and sustain

You seem to forget that Sorc is literally the only class with a full sustain line. It was a class that took full advantage of this and was able to play with sub 900 recovery for maximum damage. It simply isn’t the case anymore when other classes have had their skills updated over the years to provide enough damage for them to use Orzoga sustain food.

There is no reason to touch the sustain part of the passive. For the first time in 7 years I am able to drop Dark Deal from my bar which makes the bar space issue so much less annoying. A Warden does not have this issue because their burst skill conveniently applies Major and Minor Breach. I have to slot Curse AND Ele Sus to achieve the same effect. If you want to nerf the sustain, then I am going to ask for Breach to be removed from Warden, and you’ll feel what it’s like to have bar space issues.

Let's not ignore the heal on skill cast + roll dodge + bash this passive allows too, it is a big part of it. So no, this isnt a purely sustain passive.

In fact its basically identical to Necro's Pound of Flesh except better in basically every way.

And saying this is the only sustain passive doesnt make it ok for the skill to be this strong, the question then becomes why doesn't other classes get a sustain passive.

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery. This passive, on a really unoptomized build with 35k stamina and 20k magicka gives 700 stamina and 400 magicka which is equal to 1400 stam sustain and 800 magicka sustain or an average 1100 sustain.

This is not ok. Yes core of flame also allows DK infinite sustain as this passive offers Sorc but that doesnt make it ok either, both of these needs adjusting in pvp to be even remotely balanced.

I don't care lol. I've already done the math you just described 3 weeks before the PTS patch actualy dropped. I've already provided 3 objective adjustments for this passive to remove the extremes and still allow for casual players to benefit from. You just want the whole passive nerfed outright. In fact, this is something that Sorc should have gotten as part of their BASE skill line, not sourced from a class mastery passive.

You just told that it doesnt matter that its better than the best 2 sustain sets combined, you feel entitled to it, that it should be base kit even. Do we even need to have a discussion about whether or not you are biased and should have any say in sorcs balance?

hoangdz · April 29

acanca wrote: »

I know that you dont care that its busted, thats a bit evident

It's busted if you put it like that, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't that really busted. Here's why:

1) Due to subclassing, sustain on the live server is incredibly easy without needing any sustain set. You mentioned Wretched Vitality and Roksa in your argument:

acanca wrote: »

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery

Most builds don't use those sets together, as it's completely unnecessary. You may occasionally see either Roksa or Wretched on builds with Sugar Skull food, but most people just opt for Orzoga instead so that they can wear another damage set. For example, this is my sustain with Animal Companion/Assassination/Storm Calling:

At this regen, you don't even need Roksa or Wretched lol. Keep in mind, I haven't included Netch, which is another 353 stam or mag recovery. My damage is still fine because I'm wearing 2 offensive sets and stacking 4 damage abilities:

So when looking at the comparison from MY perspective, can you point out if that sustain passive is actually broken or not?

2) Sorc has historically suffered from bar space issues. Traditional wardsorcs cannot fit all 3 of their offensive class abilities together (Curse, Frag, BA) while keeping a spammable because they simply do not have extra slots:

This version is literally using Chudan to free up Major Resolve for a slot.

Even the wardless version still lacks slots for extra skills:

Still requires Chudan here

If you use BA as pseudo spammable, then you can actually drop Chudan, but you wouldn't have a true spammable either:

Bowsorcs isn't that different. Since it uses Crystal Weapon as spammable, it no longer has access to the hard-hitting Crystal Frag morph:

On the melee side, sorcs suffer more from this drawback as you need to stack a lot of damage mitigation and movement buffs to survive in close quarter combat. This means things like Major Evasion, Major Expedition, snare cleanse/immunity, etc. are equally important. These are two sample bar setup of my melee sorc:

The DW version gets Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak), but only has 2 offensive skills (Bfb and BA). The 2H version gets 3 damage skills (Bfb, BA, Curse), but loses Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak). Both versions do not have a snare cleanse/immunity unless they swap to Ball of Lightning or replace it with Race Against Time, but that also means losing a stun.

Meanwhile, you have a subclassed build that not only has access to 4 damage abilities (SA, Merciless, Fissure, Contingency), but also Major Expedition + Minor Evasion + snare cleanse/immunity (Deceptive Predator), and 2 stuns (Off balance from SA, Warden Charm). Did I also mention AoE Major + Minor Breach?

On PTS, Conservation allows me to drop Dark Deal completely and solve the snare cleanse/immunity problem by slotting Race Against Time:

Guess what? It still doesn't match the bar space efficiency of a subclassed build. If I use the DW version, I don't have AoE Breach or 2 extra damage abilities. If I use the 2H version, I do gain full pen, but that depends on landing an ult that can be dodged. I also don't have Major Evasion or an extra burst ability. But you know what? That's fine. Drawbacks are a part of the game, and when you consider the fact that a pure sorc with 2 class masteries still cannot fit every core buffs on to their bar, that's actually pretty damn balanced.

So no, I don't think the sustain is broken. It's NECESSARY and was long overdue for this class.

acanca · April 29

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I know that you dont care that its busted, thats a bit evident

It's busted if you put it like that, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't that really busted. Here's why:

1) Due to subclassing, sustain on the live server is incredibly easy without needing any sustain set. You mentioned Wretched Vitality and Roksa in your argument:

acanca wrote: »

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery

Most builds don't use those sets together, as it's completely unnecessary. You may occasionally see either Roksa or Wretched on builds with Sugar Skull food, but most people just opt for Orzoga instead so that they can wear another damage set. For example, this is my sustain with Animal Companion/Assassination/Storm Calling:

At this regen, you don't even need Roksa or Wretched lol. Keep in mind, I haven't included Netch, which is another 353 stam or mag recovery. My damage is still fine because I'm wearing 2 offensive sets and stacking 4 damage abilities:

So when looking at the comparison from MY perspective, can you point out if that sustain passive is actually broken or not?

2) Sorc has historically suffered from bar space issues. Traditional wardsorcs cannot fit all 3 of their offensive class abilities together (Curse, Frag, BA) while keeping a spammable because they simply do not have extra slots:

This version is literally using Chudan to free up Major Resolve for a slot.

Even the wardless version still lacks slots for extra skills:

Still requires Chudan here

If you use BA as pseudo spammable, then you can actually drop Chudan, but you wouldn't have a true spammable either:

Bowsorcs isn't that different. Since it uses Crystal Weapon as spammable, it no longer has access to the hard-hitting Crystal Frag morph:

On the melee side, sorcs suffer more from this drawback as you need to stack a lot of damage mitigation and movement buffs to survive in close quarter combat. This means things like Major Evasion, Major Expedition, snare cleanse/immunity, etc. are equally important. These are two sample bar setup of my melee sorc:

The DW version gets Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak), but only has 2 offensive skills (Bfb and BA). The 2H version gets 3 damage skills (Bfb, BA, Curse), but loses Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak). Both versions do not have a snare cleanse/immunity unless they swap to Ball of Lightning or replace it with Race Against Time, but that also means losing a stun.

Meanwhile, you have a subclassed build that not only has access to 4 damage abilities (SA, Merciless, Fissure, Contingency), but also Major Expedition + Minor Evasion + snare cleanse/immunity (Deceptive Predator), and 2 stuns (Off balance from SA, Warden Charm). Did I also mention AoE Major + Minor Breach?

On PTS, Conservation allows me to drop Dark Deal completely and solve the snare cleanse/immunity problem by slotting Race Against Time:

Guess what? It still doesn't match the bar space efficiency of a subclassed build. If I use the DW version, I don't have AoE Breach or 2 extra damage abilities. If I use the 2H version, I do gain full pen, but that depends on landing an ult that can be dodged. I also don't have Major Evasion or an extra burst ability. But you know what? That's fine. Drawbacks are a part of the game, and when you consider the fact that a pure sorc with 2 class masteries still cannot fit every core buffs on to their bar, that's actually pretty damn balanced.

So no, I don't think the sustain is broken. It's NECESSARY and was long overdue for this class.

Animal companions sustain is good, i used to run a similar subclassed build as well (i think literally we all did lol) so im aware. No its not even remotely as good as the sustain sorc currently has in the pts with this passive. You know this, i know this, please stop arguing in bad faith. The only sustain even comparable to current sorc pts sustain is dk with core of flame which is also a problem and needs adjusting. I remember when it was mentioned in PTS last patch and DK mains downplayed the issue and here we are where i can perma block and heal without ever running out of sustain with 0 sustain set or food or mundus, that was a mistake then, this is a mistake now.

Conservation of energy, even capped at 500 maximum magicka and stamina and 1000 hp in battle spirit active would most likely still be the best sustain passive in the game.

Dracane · April 29

hoangdz wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I know that you dont care that its busted, thats a bit evident

It's busted if you put it like that, but in the grand scheme of things, it isn't that really busted. Here's why:

1) Due to subclassing, sustain on the live server is incredibly easy without needing any sustain set. You mentioned Wretched Vitality and Roksa in your argument:

acanca wrote: »

This passive by itself is objectively stronger than running both wretched vitality and max stack roksa together. Max stack roksa + wretched vitality gives 630 magicka and stamina recovery

Most builds don't use those sets together, as it's completely unnecessary. You may occasionally see either Roksa or Wretched on builds with Sugar Skull food, but most people just opt for Orzoga instead so that they can wear another damage set. For example, this is my sustain with Animal Companion/Assassination/Storm Calling:

At this regen, you don't even need Roksa or Wretched lol. Keep in mind, I haven't included Netch, which is another 353 stam or mag recovery. My damage is still fine because I'm wearing 2 offensive sets and stacking 4 damage abilities:

So when looking at the comparison from MY perspective, can you point out if that sustain passive is actually broken or not?

2) Sorc has historically suffered from bar space issues. Traditional wardsorcs cannot fit all 3 of their offensive class abilities together (Curse, Frag, BA) while keeping a spammable because they simply do not have extra slots:

This version is literally using Chudan to free up Major Resolve for a slot.

Even the wardless version still lacks slots for extra skills:

Still requires Chudan here

If you use BA as pseudo spammable, then you can actually drop Chudan, but you wouldn't have a true spammable either:

Bowsorcs isn't that different. Since it uses Crystal Weapon as spammable, it no longer has access to the hard-hitting Crystal Frag morph:

On the melee side, sorcs suffer more from this drawback as you need to stack a lot of damage mitigation and movement buffs to survive in close quarter combat. This means things like Major Evasion, Major Expedition, snare cleanse/immunity, etc. are equally important. These are two sample bar setup of my melee sorc:

The DW version gets Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak), but only has 2 offensive skills (Bfb and BA). The 2H version gets 3 damage skills (Bfb, BA, Curse), but loses Major Evasion and Major Expedition (Quick Cloak). Both versions do not have a snare cleanse/immunity unless they swap to Ball of Lightning or replace it with Race Against Time, but that also means losing a stun.

Meanwhile, you have a subclassed build that not only has access to 4 damage abilities (SA, Merciless, Fissure, Contingency), but also Major Expedition + Minor Evasion + snare cleanse/immunity (Deceptive Predator), and 2 stuns (Off balance from SA, Warden Charm). Did I also mention AoE Major + Minor Breach?

On PTS, Conservation allows me to drop Dark Deal completely and solve the snare cleanse/immunity problem by slotting Race Against Time:

Guess what? It still doesn't match the bar space efficiency of a subclassed build. If I use the DW version, I don't have AoE Breach or 2 extra damage abilities. If I use the 2H version, I do gain full pen, but that depends on landing an ult that can be dodged. I also don't have Major Evasion or an extra burst ability. But you know what? That's fine. Drawbacks are a part of the game, and when you consider the fact that a pure sorc with 2 class masteries still cannot fit every core buffs on to their bar, that's actually pretty damn balanced.

So no, I don't think the sustain is broken. It's NECESSARY and was long overdue for this class.

You put so much time into listing all of this. It's interesting to follow.

What you describe further shows that these class masteries, despite looking strong on paper, are not truly enough.
From various tests I did, I can at best break even with the passive power of a subclasses build. I will have the same damage values but: Far less criticial damage modifiers than Animal Companion + Assassination, so I will still hit for less in actuality. And also I don't have the amazing active abilities and barspace options.

I stand by it that the class masteries are not strong enough and need to be much stronger offensively. This goes for them all. Only Warden impresses me well enough so far, and even then I am uncertain whether it can compensates with its great stats for the subclass burst.