SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

LalMirchi · April 25

Somehow I feel that any focus on Cryodiil is wasted effort. I feel that there is no need for the unnecessarily vast landscapes in what I joking call ESOs "riding-simulator" zone.

I intensely detest riding for minutes just to get back to a fight.

I would rather value the devs amputating a diseased limb and looking to expand the smaller scenarios and hopefully finding a a new scenario for larger scaled battles.

licenturion · April 25

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The couple of times that I did briefly check out Vengeance this week, on the first occasion EP controlled the entire map and neither of the other alliances could gain any ground without getting stomped, and on the second occasion EP didn't control everything but my alliance had the smallest population and appeared to be in the process of logging out for the night.

Hopefully I'll be able to play on Vengeance this weekend when it isn't my alliance's "off hours."

Just checked it out and the map is completely red. So I just logged out because there is no point even trying.

I wish they had a team balancer in Vengeance where they put players on the color that is the most behind. A lot of games with many players like Battlefield etc have team balancing to keep gameplay interesting, balanced and engaging.

Maybe I should make a copy of my character for every color when I have some time for when Vengeance launches.

xylena · April 25

JustLovely wrote: »

Then why are you here saying you won't play vengeance while at the same time promoting it?

Why is it so unfathomable to you guys that people want the real thing and not another test?

Why aren't GH players storming the PTS server every time they put GH up on it?

robertlabrie · April 25

They ran GH and Veng side by side back in January and the results were immediately obvious. GH poplocked. People like GH. At this point the only conclusion I can take from these forced "tests" is that ZOS is actively trying to

1. alienate the Cyrodiil community
2. drive them from the game completely
3. ?????
4. profit

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686269/greyhost-and-vengeance/p1

That test in January was the most important and it was definitive: when given a choice, people prefer classic cyrodiil not champions.

method__01 · April 25

NA PC was pretty live yesterday -lots of fights -mainly around BRK and Sej
i played with my baby stamDK and the lack of ball groups and tower hungers
made the game more enjoyable -at least for me

xylena · April 25

robertlabrie wrote: »

That test in January was the most important and it was definitive: when given a choice, people prefer classic cyrodiil not champions.

January had no special significance over the others.

They all show the same thing, that people prefer live action to meaningless tests.

WuffyCerulei · April 25

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Correction: Hardcore PVPers who only care about their own personal gameplay hate Vengeance with a passion.

To be honest everyone thinks about his own personal experience and enjoyment.

Even the people who pretend they don't.

Vengeance apologists wouldn't defend their beloved Vengeance for the sake of others.

It's because they care about their own personal experience.

I care about both my gameplay and the gameplay of others. Human compassion is a wonderful thing, and caring about other people is, in fact, a good thing.
PVP won’t survive if it doesn’t offer a healthy way for new and inexperienced players to learn and grow without hardcore end-game PVPers immediately going for their 20k health 14k armor bums and ruining their experience for PVP. Vengeance offers that safe place WHILE Grey Host gives hardcore PVPers their usual place to play. You can’t have your cake, eat it, and prevent others from having some cake too.

xR3ACTORx · April 25

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Correction: Hardcore PVPers who only care about their own personal gameplay hate Vengeance with a passion.

To be honest everyone thinks about his own personal experience and enjoyment.

Even the people who pretend they don't.

Vengeance apologists wouldn't defend their beloved Vengeance for the sake of others.

It's because they care about their own personal experience.)

I care about both my gameplay and the gameplay of others. nd prevent others from having some cake too.

Yea, of course /s

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Correction: Hardcore PVPers who only care about their own personal gameplay hate Vengeance with a passion.

To be honest everyone thinks about his own personal experience and enjoyment.

Even the people who pretend they don't.

Vengeance apologists wouldn't defend their beloved Vengeance for the sake of others.

It's because they care about their own personal experience.

I care about both my gameplay and the gameplay of others. Human compassion is a wonderful thing, and caring about other people is, in fact, a good thing.
PVP won’t survive if it doesn’t offer a healthy way for new and inexperienced players to learn and grow without hardcore end-game PVPers immediately going for their 20k health 14k armor bums and ruining their experience for PVP. Vengeance offers that safe place WHILE Grey Host gives hardcore PVPers their usual place to play. You can’t have your cake, eat it, and prevent others from having some cake too.

I have no idea what you are talking about since I am not into cake.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

.d

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is intended for end game players, everyone there participating should be "hardcore" by the definition of the rest of the community, same as vet trial pvers, and especially the hardcore mode enjoyers.

No one's telling them they're too sweaty and need to have their content lose focus for everyone else to enjoy their content on easier casual modes for the same rewards, or worse, more rewards than what they're doing despite it being harder.

I really, really loathe this focus on calling greyhost enjoyers who dont want vengeance "tryheard sweats". Lol that has a lot of mileage apparently and is a very, very varied and wide spectrum.

There are absolutely would be if vet trials players were constantly fighting tooth and nail to prevent a normal version of trials.

Furthermore, most PvP games don't force new and casual players to fight against top 500s. They have separate matchmaking for a reason. PvP as it stands now has needed different modes/maps so that there is actually choice for a long time now.

ravenwatch, below 50

Campaigns that were not balanced properly for that goal and allowed the use of OP sets. They were not dedicated game modes for that purpose. Vengeance is.

If you want a mode "for beginners", which is a mode to transition into end game, and get used to what pvp is like... those are what you need, not something so different from the game that all it teaches you is to press buttons, and how to follow a zerg.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

xylena wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Then why are you here saying you won't play vengeance while at the same time promoting it?

Why is it so unfathomable to you guys that people want the real thing and not another test?

Why aren't GH players storming the PTS server every time they put GH up on it?

Because the pts requires you download the game twice essentially, whereas vengeance is right there for you and many others to enjoy, if you wish, and apparently they even had a populated night finally, last night of pvp.

Considering also each iteration is pretty identical and seemingly very identical to the final product despite people asking for big changes, I don't see the point of waiting if its so much better than greyhost in your mind.

Beyond that, its a common pattern with a lot of forum goers. Advocate something people don't want, then never see them there playing it themselves.

xylena · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Advocate something people don't want, then never see them there playing it themselves.

This isn't a conspiracy of forum trolls, this is just ZOS delivering products that don't meet expectations, such as No Proc Ravenwatch, or Subclassing.

ceruulean · April 25

It’s PvP, someone name a game where the goal is to kill other players, but do it nicely?

Jeez some people are psycho and seem to have lost the idea of sport and fun. Sounds like the same mentality of having to go all out against a child and not knowing how to moderate yourself. Like the 2 EP that constantly tries to steamroll even if they recognize the other 2-man team is weaker and instead of letting people spar for fun, just keeps steamrolling and gloating over how good they are. Respect to those who know about fun and let me or newer players duel in enemy territory without just deleting us every time we come back for more fighting. I was holding block and bashing for 5 seconds straight for the 5th respawn so to those jerks who can't read a situation and that repeatedly Xv1 someone is rude, yeah. Just saying that your mentality is telling. Thank god you don't get AP for farming the same players over and over.

robertlabrie · April 25

At least this is the last "test" (or so we're promised) and when U50 drops inJune they'll kill off 3 classic Cyrodiil campaigns (RIP Blackreach) and we'll never have to go into Vengeance ever again. it's regrettable that ZOS continues to run these "tests" by disabling the popular classic gameplay - I still can't fathom why they insist on upsetting and alienating players - but at least it's almost over. Five more days of this garbage then never again.

Dracosin369 · April 25

I logged out of Vengeance at 10:50 AM after looking at the leaderboards. EP had 94 on the board, AD had 34, and DC had 43. EP had 30-40 with over 100k AP, AD had 3, DC had 3.
I left with 50k AP and number 12 for AD after an hour.
Because of the double AP and no Faction lock, people have overloaded EP because numbers win fights. Its basically not much fun for AD or DC, so they switch or log off. It is hard to make a good/bad conclusion if people like Vengeance. But is easy to conclude that people don't like fighting a ratio of 3-1 or 4-1.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Advocate something people don't want, then never see them there playing it themselves.

This isn't a conspiracy of forum trolls, this is just ZOS delivering products that don't meet expectations, such as No Proc Ravenwatch, or Subclassing.

That has nothing to do with my statement though. While true, it doesn't address people here on the forums such as yourself advocating for things you're not testing or playing currently. Zos is gonna Zos, but the community here actively gives feedback that can also mislead them.

MorallyBipolar · April 25

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

300 vs 360

My bad, 1 bar Vengeance is ackshually 80% of the entire pop locked GH. That changes everything! If only there was a PvP server that could handle those hundreds in queue without lag.

IF you come back for vengeance you're going to run into all the same problems you had in Grey Host. People get tired of things sometimes and once they've had enough there's no going back.

MorallyBipolar · April 25

xylena wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Then why are you here saying you won't play vengeance while at the same time promoting it?

Why is it so unfathomable to you guys that people want the real thing and not another test?

Why aren't GH players storming the PTS server every time they put GH up on it?

I can only speak for myself here, but I am not a lab rat or paid beta tester. ZOS can manage their own testing or offer compensation in some form that doesn't cost them a dime like some special mount or crowns or any of about 1000 things to encourage us to do their "testing" for them....but they don't. Beyond that, a long time ago I was using the PTS and there was a massive problem where the PTS info crossed over into the live game and totally borked my game for about a month. I'll never touch the PTS again after that.

To me it really does look like you just maintain an unreasonable degree of animosity towards the PvP community you used to be a big part of but no longer are.

xylena · April 25

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

IF you come back for vengeance you're going to run into all the same problems you had in Grey Host.

Lag, immortal ball groups, busted proc sets, 100-0 instant deaths? Not on Vengeance.

I'll be back in June to try both Vengeance and GH. If neither product meets demands, it's back to the forums. I have no attachment to this particular iteration of Vengeance.

MorallyBipolar · April 25

robertlabrie wrote: »

At least this is the last "test" (or so we're promised) and when U50 drops inJune they'll kill off 3 classic Cyrodiil campaigns (RIP Blackreach) and we'll never have to go into Vengeance ever again. it's regrettable that ZOS continues to run these "tests" by disabling the popular classic gameplay - I still can't fathom why they insist on upsetting and alienating players - but at least it's almost over. Five more days of this garbage then never again.

Killing Blackreach is a huge mistake. The overflow of people trying to get into grey host are going to have nowhere to go while they wait in queue.

ShutUpitsRed · April 25

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

robertlabrie wrote: »

At least this is the last "test" (or so we're promised) and when U50 drops inJune they'll kill off 3 classic Cyrodiil campaigns (RIP Blackreach) and we'll never have to go into Vengeance ever again. it's regrettable that ZOS continues to run these "tests" by disabling the popular classic gameplay - I still can't fathom why they insist on upsetting and alienating players - but at least it's almost over. Five more days of this garbage then never again.

Killing Blackreach is a huge mistake. The overflow of people trying to get into grey host are going to have nowhere to go while they wait in queue.

This. Can't even do IC while waiting for the GH queue anymore, either. I don't want to PvE! The fomo from the tomes and pursuits and events etc is bad enough but now we just have to twiddle our thumbs at a wayshrine for two hours to PvP I guess?

xylena · April 25

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Killing Blackreach is a huge mistake.

It's the correct decision to rebuild the GH player base.

Orbital78 · April 25

Thanks this made my day.

emeraldshado · April 25

1: the population count representation should be split into 25 people incriments, that would be instead of representing three sections of the population graph, there would be 12 for each faction adding up to 300 / 300 / 300 for the vengence population cap of 900.

You can't hide a dead campaign, you can only obfuscate it.
at the same time, you should be able to see a closer representation of the army sizes you are fighting against so you know how much time you have to take a keep and how likely it is to succeed.

with no bars populated, i know that each faction doesn't even have 100 players inside of it.

group sizes being 12, i know that the 20 - 30 people seigeing chalman right now as i type, are almost 50% of the dc player base on playstation logged in, but you aren't showing me this data, and there is no reason not to.

2: vengeance is bad. alright great. my feelings are now displayed for all.

Vengeance is bad because it negates the time & effort into getting and wearing the sets that represent your play style.
some people, or most people just go for a meta build. but not everyone. I really like having the psijic order rewind time ulti on my bad as i am fighting, along with the channeled resource regeneration. I am a vampire. in vengeance I can use none of these and you have stripped me of the tools that I use to have fun and experience the game within my preferred play style. implementing a cool down on teleport instead of the compounding cost is such a Large middle finger when attempting to use if as a successive stun. I may not kill people on my own, but maybe i like to teleport through them so the people behind me can capitalize on my enemies vulnurable uncontrollable state.

If the aim was to try and streamline the skills, then ranged magika still feels week compared to melee pumeling me to death.
some skills do not seem as though they are actually 28 meters, or I am missing all my passive buffs, like the ones that increase my ranged damage distance after taking a resource. these have been baked into my player experience since I have been playing the game before wrothgar. It may not have been implimented in wrothgar, but in my memory, it sure feels like it, having me sour on this experience even more.

If vengeance is the preferred path going forward, I see no reason to continue playing pvp. it really striked me that you chose not to purchase servers with the vcpu capacity to compute all of the instance damage, damage over time, passive buff, and on activation calculations, and chose to try and put pandora back in the box. i am sure a cost benefit analysis was done, and I guess the conclusion that maybe pvpers pay less than that of pve'ers so you couldn't justify supporting your current code base for cyrodil.

If the true intent was to try and boost the player capacity so large fights were more "epic" by pruning all skills, then the idea was a falacy.

Jammy420 · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

The bars are not equal to Grey Host. 1 bar is like full bars grey host, so like, you are not really showing any useful data. On EU PC its almost always 2-full. Which is what, 3 times more than greyhost?

on ours on pcna during busy hours you will see 2 bars and yes thats anywhere from 600-under 900. Problem is, thats one faction. The others are anywhere from 300-600.

This would be just fine, except Vengeance is a numbers game, and yall have even less ways of dealing with a zerg than we do. Can't speak for EU but on NA what happens is you have 300-600 players on AD and DC sitting in keeps while EP has six scrolls and zergs the map, then the rest of the players either leave, or log in on EP toons, rinse repeat.

So technically yea Vengeance has more players than what GH allows. But its not active pvp. And its not greyhost players either for the most part. I know because my friends list is full of them, and on a friday evening I had under 10 people online, which is crazy.

Meanwhile with greyhost you get 360 active players, with over 2 hours of a queue for people. Not ideal, said queue, which is why Zos needs to get back to figuring out how to improve the server and raising that cap, rather than just making pvp waiting rooms essentially, we already have those.

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

Poss · April 25

Jammy420 wrote: »

So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

But people are more than happy to regrind for endless hours every few months whenever a nerf or buff renders their PvE gear not adequate enough when spanking a dummy. Why should PvP gear be any different?

YandereGirlfriend · April 25

licenturion wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The couple of times that I did briefly check out Vengeance this week, on the first occasion EP controlled the entire map and neither of the other alliances could gain any ground without getting stomped, and on the second occasion EP didn't control everything but my alliance had the smallest population and appeared to be in the process of logging out for the night.

Hopefully I'll be able to play on Vengeance this weekend when it isn't my alliance's "off hours."

Just checked it out and the map is completely red. So I just logged out because there is no point even trying.

I wish they had a team balancer in Vengeance where they put players on the color that is the most behind. A lot of games with many players like Battlefield etc have team balancing to keep gameplay interesting, balanced and engaging.

Maybe I should make a copy of my character for every color when I have some time for when Vengeance launches.

This is the way.

Solo-queue: place new player on the faction with the current lowest population

Group-queue: place group on the faction with the current lowest population

Honestly, that change would completely solve the population imbalance question.

YandereGirlfriend · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Then why are you here saying you won't play vengeance while at the same time promoting it?

Why is it so unfathomable to you guys that people want the real thing and not another test?

Why aren't GH players storming the PTS server every time they put GH up on it?

Beyond that, its a common pattern with a lot of forum goers. Advocate something people don't want, then never see them there playing it themselves.

I, for one, will NEVER forget all of the strident voices hype-beasting for No-Proc in Ravenwatch who... surprise, surprise... never showed up once the changes that they pushed so hard for were implemented and immediately ruined the campaign.

"Rules for thee but not for me", etc.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

xylena wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

IF you come back for vengeance you're going to run into all the same problems you had in Grey Host.

Lag, immortal ball groups, busted proc sets, 100-0 instant deaths? Not on Vengeance.

I'll be back in June to try both Vengeance and GH. If neither product meets demands, it's back to the forums. I have no attachment to this particular iteration of Vengeance.

the ballgroups have been getting zerged down by pugs with that healing nerf, they're still annoying but not as bad as they used to be.

BardokRedSnow · April 25

Jammy420 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

The bars are not equal to Grey Host. 1 bar is like full bars grey host, so like, you are not really showing any useful data. On EU PC its almost always 2-full. Which is what, 3 times more than greyhost?

on ours on pcna during busy hours you will see 2 bars and yes thats anywhere from 600-under 900. Problem is, thats one faction. The others are anywhere from 300-600.

This would be just fine, except Vengeance is a numbers game, and yall have even less ways of dealing with a zerg than we do. Can't speak for EU but on NA what happens is you have 300-600 players on AD and DC sitting in keeps while EP has six scrolls and zergs the map, then the rest of the players either leave, or log in on EP toons, rinse repeat.

So technically yea Vengeance has more players than what GH allows. But its not active pvp. And its not greyhost players either for the most part. I know because my friends list is full of them, and on a friday evening I had under 10 people online, which is crazy.

Meanwhile with greyhost you get 360 active players, with over 2 hours of a queue for people. Not ideal, said queue, which is why Zos needs to get back to figuring out how to improve the server and raising that cap, rather than just making pvp waiting rooms essentially, we already have those.

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

good for yall on eu I guess, isnt the case here, this was 10pm yesterday:

huge population disparity there. Someone showed it had ep and ad locked at some point and dc at 2 bars, 3 on pc ui. It didn't last very long though. It is a lot of people sure, but that doesn't matter when one faction dwarfs the rest.

PoveusRonin · April 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

As someone else said, PC EU is equal population across the board, around 2-3 bars at primetime, that is WAY above the normal gh server. Me thinks it is popular, and the gh sweaties are just big mad. And like someone else said, we have golden pursuits this week, so a lot of people are doing those. So even with those, the population is higher than gh. So like, yeah. The thing is, a lot of people do not wanna have to regrind for endless hours every few months to be able to play pvp. Sometimes people have to take a break, then we come back, and bam, we cant pvp anymore without the latest and greatest setups. That is extremely counterintuitive when it comes to pvp. PvP should be about PvP, not grinding.

good for yall on eu I guess, isnt the case here, this was 10pm yesterday:

huge population disparity there. Someone showed it had ep and ad locked at some point and dc at 2 bars, 3 on pc ui. It didn't last very long though. It is a lot of people sure, but that doesn't matter when one faction dwarfs the rest.

Based on that picture, it is too bad the Yellow and Blue cannot combine as then at least they would be more of a chance of being even. Some sort of temporary alliance where they work together when one side dominates the others.