YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Definitely. At the end of the day, passives can only do so much. It really is the abilities that matter.

Someone in this thread made an excellent point that illustrated that issue perfectly, something like, "Conservation of Energy is only good because it lets you use the Dark Magic passives without having to actually use any Dark Magic skills." Which is just so on the nose.

As, with basically one exception, Dark Magic skills are so trash that it is a mighty throw indeed to ever choose the skill line willingly. The Conservation passive is a complete condemnation of the entire line, an admission of defeat and capitulation.

And Dark Magic is hardly alone. Indeed, the ears of Shadow immediately perk-up, recognizing its kindred situation.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

umagon wrote: »

From a tankblade perspective I think evasive trance is a too much feast or famine. If I am already blocking then my damage mitigation is already high. And 1/3 second time frame isn’t a large enough time window to line up incoming attacks.
I think changing the dodge to an automatic block with zero resource cost for 2-3 seconds; while scaling the block amount with how much the character has would be a better approach.

Also changing the 5% increased damage to scale up to 10% based off of weapon/spell damage while allowing it function on both blocks and dodges would make it more flexible for different builds.

Maybe change it to something like below (the values are for illustrative proposes):

Evasive Trance: This passive causes you to Block incoming attacks for 3 seconds when activating a Nightblade ability; this has a 5 second cooldown after the effect ends. Blocking or dodging any attack through any means causes your attacker to take 5%-10% increased damage based on your weapon/spell damage for 5 seconds.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

For the average player, this is surely not doing it. For most people the tools and abilities offered through sub classing will outweigh any of this. For me at least it's good enough to delve into it again, particularly because I heavily dislike subclassing and should be glad to take any reason given to abandon its malevolent pull.

I would lie if I said I don't feel uncertain. On the PTS I have tested a lot with my partner, and I notice how with Sorc's Font of Power, my damage is merely returned to where it was one and a half years ago when last we played. I feel no stronger at all despite having 35% more spell damage. It's like it merely brings me back to where I was years ago power wise.

Which probably says a lot about Sorc or about the game. (I truly do not know, as I have not followed every patch) All I know is that pure MagSorc is really done for on current Live, and that the class mastery merely restores a semblence of what was.
In order to explain what I mean when I say MagSorc, I shall let a wiser one speak:

"Harry, the definition of a MagSorc is that he wears a staff, dons light armour and that he uses magic wards. But more importantly; it means that he does under no circumstances ever Stam.“ - Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

What people understand under MagSorc nowadays in a world post hybridization and subclassing is just dreadful to me. You are not a MagSorc only because your magpool is 1k higher than your stam.

Oh I feel this 100%. For a casual player, yes, they'll probably see a difference with these passives but, no, they won't keep up with subclassing.

Many, myself included, advocated that subclassing should be restricted to, maybe, PvE only or at the very least have more limitations than the open season that it currently is, because we KNEW it would ruin PvP and overwhelm PvE, which it has done.

Mag Sorc suffers greatly. Even before Subclassing Mag Sorc lagged but afterward they fell through the floor. I found a way to make Mag Sorc (somewhat) competitive but it's a very unique play style and extremely rare / niche setup that's also somewhat in-game expensive to operate as it requires a ton of filled Soul Gems. ... But, it delivers a lot of power and at the same time speaks to the darker side of Sorc lore.

The passives are ok and will work for some but I don't seem them convincing the lions share to sign up for them.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

For the average player, this is surely not doing it. For most people the tools and abilities offered through sub classing will outweigh any of this. For me at least it's good enough to delve into it again, particularly because I heavily dislike subclassing and should be glad to take any reason given to abandon its malevolent pull.

I would lie if I said I don't feel uncertain. On the PTS I have tested a lot with my partner, and I notice how with Sorc's Font of Power, my damage is merely returned to where it was one and a half years ago when last we played. I feel no stronger at all despite having 35% more spell damage. It's like it merely brings me back to where I was years ago power wise.

Which probably says a lot about Sorc or about the game. (I truly do not know, as I have not followed every patch) All I know is that pure MagSorc is really done for on current Live, and that the class mastery merely restores a semblence of what was.
In order to explain what I mean when I say MagSorc, I shall let a wiser one speak:

"Harry, the definition of a MagSorc is that he wears a staff, dons light armour and that he uses magic wards. But more importantly; it means that he does under no circumstances ever Stam.“ - Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

What people understand under MagSorc nowadays in a world post hybridization and subclassing is just dreadful to me. You are not a MagSorc only because your magpool is 1k higher than your stam.

Oh I feel this 100%. For a casual player, yes, they'll probably see a difference with these passives but, no, they won't keep up with subclassing.

Many, myself included, advocated that subclassing should be restricted to, maybe, PvE only or at the very least have more limitations than the open season that it currently is, because we KNEW it would ruin PvP and overwhelm PvE, which it has done.

Mag Sorc suffers greatly. Even before Subclassing Mag Sorc lagged but afterward they fell through the floor. I found a way to make Mag Sorc (somewhat) competitive but it's a very unique play style and extremely rare / niche setup that's also somewhat in-game expensive to operate as it requires a ton of filled Soul Gems. ... But, it delivers a lot of power and at the same time speaks to the darker side of Sorc lore.

The passives are ok and will work for some but I don't seem them convincing the lions share to sign up for them.

I believe I may know as to what you refer. Soul gems afterall are a well known thing to our kind. I am interested to learn how this goes for you.

What is so sad to see in pvp how class identity is gone. You never know what to expect when you see someone, but I hope the class mastery will animate more to return to pure classing.

For PvP I run a mix of Black Gem monster set which deals strong damage scaling off the targets max health, sacrificing a Soul Gem to fire the missile which is an extra, independent instance of damage along side my main attacks. My main spammable is Shocking Soul which not only procs the Black Gem set but its scribed with Anchorite’s Cruelty which consumes another Soul Gem to deal oblivion damage, which is yet another instance of simultaneous damage.

I also run 5pc of Oblivions Foe which synergizes with Shocking Soul to apply a high scaling passive DoT on the target with Shocking Soul.

I use the Energy Overload ult which buffs light attacks and synergizes perfectly with the Black Gem set.

So my opening shot of Shocking Soul procs the monster set and the light attack Energy Overload fires the Soul Gem so the target takes 5 instances of damage from that one GCD application which scales to a high burst of damage.

Practically nobody runs the BGM monster set, it’s a tricky dungeon to run and I’m fairly sure few are running Oblivions Foe but both align well with Sorc lore IMO and provide solid damage output and is a viable alternative play style for Mag Sorc if one can get used to it.

For PvE I get rid of the BGM monster set for 5pc Oblivions Foe & 5pc Beacon of Oblivion. Since my character scales to high base DPS the Beacon is a solid buff. I also run a different scribe of Shocking Soul as well as Soul Burst to apply the Oblivions Foe DoT to a broad AoE. I use Consuming Trap as a high value DoT + part of my sustain strat.

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

For the average player, this is surely not doing it. For most people the tools and abilities offered through sub classing will outweigh any of this. For me at least it's good enough to delve into it again, particularly because I heavily dislike subclassing and should be glad to take any reason given to abandon its malevolent pull.

I would lie if I said I don't feel uncertain. On the PTS I have tested a lot with my partner, and I notice how with Sorc's Font of Power, my damage is merely returned to where it was one and a half years ago when last we played. I feel no stronger at all despite having 35% more spell damage. It's like it merely brings me back to where I was years ago power wise.

Which probably says a lot about Sorc or about the game. (I truly do not know, as I have not followed every patch) All I know is that pure MagSorc is really done for on current Live, and that the class mastery merely restores a semblence of what was.
In order to explain what I mean when I say MagSorc, I shall let a wiser one speak:

"Harry, the definition of a MagSorc is that he wears a staff, dons light armour and that he uses magic wards. But more importantly; it means that he does under no circumstances ever Stam.“ - Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

What people understand under MagSorc nowadays in a world post hybridization and subclassing is just dreadful to me. You are not a MagSorc only because your magpool is 1k higher than your stam.

Oh I feel this 100%. For a casual player, yes, they'll probably see a difference with these passives but, no, they won't keep up with subclassing.

Many, myself included, advocated that subclassing should be restricted to, maybe, PvE only or at the very least have more limitations than the open season that it currently is, because we KNEW it would ruin PvP and overwhelm PvE, which it has done.

Mag Sorc suffers greatly. Even before Subclassing Mag Sorc lagged but afterward they fell through the floor. I found a way to make Mag Sorc (somewhat) competitive but it's a very unique play style and extremely rare / niche setup that's also somewhat in-game expensive to operate as it requires a ton of filled Soul Gems. ... But, it delivers a lot of power and at the same time speaks to the darker side of Sorc lore.

The passives are ok and will work for some but I don't seem them convincing the lions share to sign up for them.

I believe I may know as to what you refer. Soul gems afterall are a well known thing to our kind. I am interested to learn how this goes for you.

What is so sad to see in pvp how class identity is gone. You never know what to expect when you see someone, but I hope the class mastery will animate more to return to pure classing.

For PvP I run a mix of Black Gem monster set which deals strong damage scaling off the targets max health, sacrificing a Soul Gem to fire the missile which is an extra, independent instance of damage along side my main attacks. My main spammable is Shocking Soul which not only procs the Black Gem set but its scribed with Anchorite’s Cruelty which consumes another Soul Gem to deal oblivion damage, which is yet another instance of simultaneous damage.

I also run 5pc of Oblivions Foe which synergizes with Shocking Soul to apply a high scaling passive DoT on the target with Shocking Soul.

I use the Energy Overload ult which buffs light attacks and synergizes perfectly with the Black Gem set.

So my opening shot of Shocking Soul procs the monster set and the light attack Energy Overload fires the Soul Gem so the target takes 5 instances of damage from that one GCD application which scales to a high burst of damage.

Practically nobody runs the BGM monster set, it’s a tricky dungeon to run and I’m fairly sure few are running Oblivions Foe but both align well with Sorc lore IMO and provide solid damage output and is a viable alternative play style for Mag Sorc if one can get used to it.

For PvE I get rid of the BGM monster set for 5pc Oblivions Foe & 5pc Beacon of Oblivion. Since my character scales to high base DPS the Beacon is a solid buff. I also run a different scribe of Shocking Soul as well as Soul Burst to apply the Oblivions Foe DoT to a broad AoE. I use Consuming Trap as a high value DoT + part of my sustain strat.

I have tested Black Monstrosity only last night on the PTS and it dealt 2.8k against my companion. Seems it does only like 7.5% of HP in pvp. It did not convince me sadly, even though I like how well it works. I had the same idea as you. But I feel that our Shock Mastery script does the same as Anchorite, only all at once instead over 5 seconds.

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

My initial impression was that the class masteries are too weak, then I doubted a bit when some started saying they are broken, but I am also back to thinking they are not enough. There was a wow effect for a few day, yet when considering everything and leaving aside unintended interactions, none of the masteries are good enough to seriously compete with subclassing at least as far as pvp is concerned.

And it seems I am far from alone in my thinking.

You're not wrong. I didn't test every class, I figured there were enough mains to cover them all .. but when I looked at Sorc I saw the same thing you are.

People sometimes forget that there's an opportunity cost for choices we make in game. It's one thing to say X or Y Class Mastery passive is "good", in a vacuum .. but when one looks at those passives versus Subclassing that's where things fall short. There's no Class Mastery passive that I'm seeing that's going to present a sweeter opportunity than being able to slot a Merciless Resolve or Fatecarver or Shalks or Surprise Attack.

These Mastery passives, from what I understand, are supposed to be a partial class enhancement to hold us over whilst the Devs work on the class refreshes; then seeing the Mastery passives adjusted as each class is re-worked for balance.

These current Mastery passives aren't delivering the type of power or flexibility that Subclassing does, full stop.

It doesn't matter whether it's PvE or PvP, Subclassing just delivers too much and if the only restrictions Subclassed builds have are these weak passives it's going to be a hard sell convincing people to stick with a pure base class build versus subbing.

I don't doubt some people are seeing an increase in power by using the Class Mastery passives now than the power they were seeing before, BUT, that doesn't mean that the power they were outputting before the Mastery passives was anywhere near on par with the potential of what's out there; either for PvP or PvE.

Thank you. You said this all well.
The strongest of the class masteries is not universally strong enough to replace the things subclassing does. And they don't necessarily have to at this moment in time. As long as it's not griefing to play pure Templar, Sorc etc. until their reworks, then I am also glad.

I just say this because I hope ZoS do not nerf any of them so soon only because there was some hype around them for a few days. The next update could genuinly be one of the most exciting ESO patches in recent memory. That is if things don't release butchered and balanced to death.

It's so boring how everything Sorc gets are fix values, because they are afraid to give them anything that scales. Surge > fix heal value unaffected by stats. Dark Deal the same, and the previous iteration of Conservation of Energy too was a fix value.
It's tiresome when nothing scales.

Agreed .. I don't believe these passives should take any class into "near-meta" territory but they should seek to deliver class-only elevations to either power or utility, whatever the class is missing. This way these pure class options have a greater potential to be competitive with subclassed builds.

Sorc IMO has always been a tricky class for the Devs. To start, the class has two widely disparagingly play style paths between pet-based and non-pet-based. This is further compounded by mechanics. The fundamental mechanics behind how Sorc skills execute their functions are so poorly optimized that it's almost laughable; this includes excessively long animations or even the AI behind how Sorc pets behave, to even the method of requiring opponents to stand-in-stupid easy to avoid skills that yield no results. It's not always about numbers it's also about method and function.

Sorcs biggest deficiency is raw power and, IMO, that's what these passives need to bring but the values they give are just too low, especially in the context of our poor skills. ... What's a 20% temporary increase in damage if I can run a persistent 17% AND have access to Subbed skills? .. Or equip Beacon of Oblivion and cop a 15% bonus to damage PLUS whatever else from Subclassed passives AND have access to better skills? For Sorcs this is really a no brainer, these passives just don't deliver.

It sounds like the other classes are in the same boat with these passives based on what others are posting. I don't think these passives is really going to encourage anyone to go with a base class unless these passives are tweaked to hit HARD. .. And that shouldn't be an issue because the values and scope of them can always be adjusted down during the class refreshes anyway.

The passives are enough to encourage me personally. And as well my husband says that he will go back or at least try pure Warden.

That is if things remain as they are. Already nerfs to the Sorcclass masteries, based on meaningless dummy parses and Werewolf abuse, are being implied in the PTS summaries. So if they come online any weaker, then I also don't know what will be.

I can't get on board with these passives. If I'm running a DLC Vet dungeon or Trial or anything PvP there's no way I can be competitive in those content areas with those passives AND having to carry under-performing Sorc skill lines.

And I lean on PvP as the higher priority here because that's the significantly higher bar in terms of power and mechanical needs. Nothing in PvE has anywhere near the dynamics and power that PvP does which means that any PvE content is much easier to address and engage with as opposed to PvP. A skill or a mechanic can be acceptable in PvE but at the same time extremely unacceptable in PvP and I think we see a lot of that in Sorc, specifically.

We can get some solid sustain out of Conservation but there are multiple ways to get that level or more of sustain elsewhere. None of these passives deliver on persistent power, especially not like we can get elsewhere.

If they go nerf the passives then it's pushing many Sorcs even more-so to stay with Subclassing. Dummy parsing is only part of comprehensive testing. Dummies don't represent any aspect of real-world in game combat. No enemy just stands there and "takes it" from a player.

I can't speak for all players but it's not as if most of us Sorcs didn't already have a strategy for sustain or a strategy to delver strong burst power or persistent DPS. I'm not seeing where any of these passives brings Sorcs any of those benefits that we can't get elsewhere but also have access to far, far better skills through subclassing.

If someone want's to run pure Sorc with these passives, that's great, however, I would very much maintain that in any real world scenario they're going to under perform. The main playstyle I can see someone making that choice for is Heavy Attacks, which is fine, it's definitely an option, I just wish Sorcs could get values and mechanics that support more than just that one-trick-pony setup.

Maybe after the Sorc class refresh, IF (and this is a big IF) we get significantly re-worked skills that deliver on what Sorcs have been lacking then we have a better argument for these passives being as they are, but there's no way in the context of our poor skills. Right now, the passives need to deliver a lot more to make up for the penalty of having to carry those skills, otherwise, most are going to still see Subclassing as being more beneficial. .. especially when we can even Parse equal or higher numbers on a dummy with Subclassing that we can with these passives.

These are seemingly "good on paper" passives.

For the average player, this is surely not doing it. For most people the tools and abilities offered through sub classing will outweigh any of this. For me at least it's good enough to delve into it again, particularly because I heavily dislike subclassing and should be glad to take any reason given to abandon its malevolent pull.

I would lie if I said I don't feel uncertain. On the PTS I have tested a lot with my partner, and I notice how with Sorc's Font of Power, my damage is merely returned to where it was one and a half years ago when last we played. I feel no stronger at all despite having 35% more spell damage. It's like it merely brings me back to where I was years ago power wise.

Which probably says a lot about Sorc or about the game. (I truly do not know, as I have not followed every patch) All I know is that pure MagSorc is really done for on current Live, and that the class mastery merely restores a semblence of what was.
In order to explain what I mean when I say MagSorc, I shall let a wiser one speak:

"Harry, the definition of a MagSorc is that he wears a staff, dons light armour and that he uses magic wards. But more importantly; it means that he does under no circumstances ever Stam.“ - Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore

What people understand under MagSorc nowadays in a world post hybridization and subclassing is just dreadful to me. You are not a MagSorc only because your magpool is 1k higher than your stam.

Oh I feel this 100%. For a casual player, yes, they'll probably see a difference with these passives but, no, they won't keep up with subclassing.

Many, myself included, advocated that subclassing should be restricted to, maybe, PvE only or at the very least have more limitations than the open season that it currently is, because we KNEW it would ruin PvP and overwhelm PvE, which it has done.

Mag Sorc suffers greatly. Even before Subclassing Mag Sorc lagged but afterward they fell through the floor. I found a way to make Mag Sorc (somewhat) competitive but it's a very unique play style and extremely rare / niche setup that's also somewhat in-game expensive to operate as it requires a ton of filled Soul Gems. ... But, it delivers a lot of power and at the same time speaks to the darker side of Sorc lore.

The passives are ok and will work for some but I don't seem them convincing the lions share to sign up for them.

I believe I may know as to what you refer. Soul gems afterall are a well known thing to our kind. I am interested to learn how this goes for you.

What is so sad to see in pvp how class identity is gone. You never know what to expect when you see someone, but I hope the class mastery will animate more to return to pure classing.

For PvP I run a mix of Black Gem monster set which deals strong damage scaling off the targets max health, sacrificing a Soul Gem to fire the missile which is an extra, independent instance of damage along side my main attacks. My main spammable is Shocking Soul which not only procs the Black Gem set but its scribed with Anchorite’s Cruelty which consumes another Soul Gem to deal oblivion damage, which is yet another instance of simultaneous damage.

I also run 5pc of Oblivions Foe which synergizes with Shocking Soul to apply a high scaling passive DoT on the target with Shocking Soul.

I use the Energy Overload ult which buffs light attacks and synergizes perfectly with the Black Gem set.

So my opening shot of Shocking Soul procs the monster set and the light attack Energy Overload fires the Soul Gem so the target takes 5 instances of damage from that one GCD application which scales to a high burst of damage.

Practically nobody runs the BGM monster set, it’s a tricky dungeon to run and I’m fairly sure few are running Oblivions Foe but both align well with Sorc lore IMO and provide solid damage output and is a viable alternative play style for Mag Sorc if one can get used to it.

For PvE I get rid of the BGM monster set for 5pc Oblivions Foe & 5pc Beacon of Oblivion. Since my character scales to high base DPS the Beacon is a solid buff. I also run a different scribe of Shocking Soul as well as Soul Burst to apply the Oblivions Foe DoT to a broad AoE. I use Consuming Trap as a high value DoT + part of my sustain strat.

I have tested Black Monstrosity only last night on the PTS and it dealt 2.8k against my companion. Seems it does only like 7.5% of HP in pvp. It did not convince me sadly, even though I like how well it works. I had the same idea as you. But I feel that our Shock Mastery script does the same as Anchorite, only all at once instead over 5 seconds.

Your setup might have something off. BGM hits WAY harder than that for me in PvP and that's with Battle Sprit effects. On average the instance of BGM damage scales to between 4k to 7k in PvP, and that's values registered on the target, after mitigation.

If you want insights, DM me and I'll give you more info on it.

hoangdz wrote: »

Keep it going guys. Conservation of Energy is already giga broken, but imma say nothing so they can buff it even more

• Nothing Wasted: Generic stat boost that's extremely similar to the existing class script. This'll be nice for PvE parsing, but a lot of necro PvP builds don't even use corpse consuming abilities because they're generally too clunky and static to be widely viable. This seems like a wasted opportunity to give necro something unique and flavorful.
• Malevolent Promise: Makes corpse consumption a bit more dynamic and closer to how it should probably function by default. This is really the only interesting damage passive, but for some reason you can't even use it in PvP, so necro is essentially getting scammed with one less mastery passive than other classes. Even if it did work in PvP, it would only be potentially busted on Corpse Burster builds, so it's hardly a widely applicable damage passive for the class as a whole. Compared to the crazy damage procs other classes are getting, this passive ONLY allows necro to actually use its existing skills. Also, only allowing the closest enemy to be targeted as a corpse instead of any enemy would be an annoying mess when fighting groups. Why should a Necro not be able to target the person they're already focusing on just because another player stepped a foot closer for half a second? This passive desperately requires adjustment. If zos is concerned about Corpse Burster spam, it would be much better to just add a restriction for use with that set and then allow this passive for PvP.
• Cycle Unending: Conditional, generic damage done bonus that will once again help with PvE parsing but doesn't expand necro's actual damage options. Despite being extremely conditional in PvP, since you're not going to consistently be sitting at 25% more relative health than your opponents, this passive is of course halved in PvP. Most of the time you might be getting an extra couple percent damage done against decent opponents. At that point, why not just subclass for stronger damage passives and skills? Also, Arcanist gets a very similar passive with Unbound Potential, except that's a consistent, essentially unconditional 15% damage done. Why does Arcanist get a consistent, reliable damage done passive that's also 3%(5% in PvE) higher than Cycle's max, while Necro gets something that won't even give the max bonus the majority of the time? Arcanist's damage kit is stronger than Necro's already.
• Pound of Flesh: Amazing passive and the only one that feels widely applicable in both PvP and PvE. It also feels appropriately thematic to Necro, though I would prefer if it also restored 5% magicka to give more options for different build types. Either way though, a solid passive.
• At the Precipice: Once again, this is just letting Necro actually use its skills like every other class can already do by default.