Werewolves should exceed Movement Speed Cap

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

Werewolves should be able to exceed the max movement speed cap and I will die on this hill!

Currently, a streak user with a max movement speed build already effectively exceeds the movement speed cap when you factor in streak usage and sprinting over a protracted distance.

Why should a werewolf be slower than this? We do not have all the utility that a streak using sorc or subclassed build has with a variety of self and cross heals and shields. We do not have any ranged attacks. We are purely melee. We should be able to close distance and create distance better than any other playable class.

In combat, we should be able to achieve to speed of a max speed sprinting + streaking player over distance, if not significantly more.

Furthermore we should be able to achieve the speed of a max speed horse out of combat.

Currently with the planned update we are no faster than the average Joe Schmoe max speed build.

WEREWOLVES SHOULD BE CRAZY FAST.

Please ZOS hear my cries!

RaikaNA · April 23

I also believe that werewolves should be able to climb on keep walls.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/H6-XV6Y9HEk

YandereGirlfriend · April 23

Gonna disagree with you, big dawg.

Last I checked, WWs have a super inexpensive gap-closer that you should probably use.

Maybe when out of combat such a thing is more reasonable.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Gonna disagree with you, big dawg.

Last I checked, WWs have a super inexpensive gap-closer that you should probably use.

Maybe when out of combat such a thing is more reasonable.

I bet you work for Big Stormcalling 😜

Erickson9610 · April 23

Werewolf definitely should have an increased Movement Speed cap. Not only do we have a larger model so moving faster makes more sense, but we currently move at the same speed at movement speed cap as someone running on two legs! Werewolves run on all fours, so naturally they should be slightly faster. Werewolves are currently slower because they lack a snare purge and access to tools like Streak.

I especially want this in PvP, where carrying the scroll means you want to stack Movement Speed bonuses. This would make Werewolf useful in this context, as you'd be able to run slightly faster than normal people could. Also, running between Keeps as a Werewolf could use some help — we're nowhere near comparable to a mount, so we're expected to drop form if we want to travel anywhere in a reasonable amount of time.

coop500 · April 23

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zone to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

You've got a great point there Coop I respect this totally.

In PVP zones then

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

coop500 · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Depends, not really. People use streak, but I beat them all the time on my non-streak build. This is because using streak causes you to stop for a second, losing momentum, and the animation for when the game decides you're picking a plant or whatever is delayed if you don't juuuust perfectly smoothly run up to it.

it's all very subtle and comes from way too many hours of farming my own mats.

Werewolf wouldn't have this issue if it had an increased speed cap. I would be beating people even worse than I already do, and I get enough hate haha.

YandereGirlfriend · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Gonna disagree with you, big dawg.

Last I checked, WWs have a super inexpensive gap-closer that you should probably use.

Maybe when out of combat such a thing is more reasonable.

I bet you work for Big Stormcalling 😜

Ack! My cover is blown! I mean...

*opens trench-coast*

"Can I interest you in some... subclassing... the first skill line... is free...."

Turtle_Bot · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Streak is actually really bad for material gathering (beyond just the 1 second stutter it has), because casting streak draws your weapons so to interact with a node you need to sheath your weapons (which takes another second) before you actually interact with the node, so using streak to gather materials is much slower than just moving at speed cap with weapons always sheathed.

Ring of the Wild Hunt mythic has been best for me for resource gathering. +45% movement speed (so basically always at cap even when not sprinting) and just running node to node to gather materials.

The only time streak is useful is if there's a super niche area with a gap to cross for the most efficient path that would otherwise need a longer route to run around, but those area's are typically not very efficient for material gathering, even with streak since they don't really have many nodes (or densely packed nodes) like starter zones or a few other areas.

Turtle_Bot · April 23

As for increasing WW speed cap, I can see where you're coming from, but this game already has too much speed as it is.

Giving WW a higher baseline speed than non-WW form rather than increasing the cap would probably be more appropriate, so WW doesn't have to look for sources of speed such as Celerity champion perk, medium armor passives, sets, swift jewelry traits, etc. and can focus it's build more on other areas.

Overall though, the game as a whole needs a massive slow down applied across the board. No class/build should be anywhere near the movement speed cap unless sacrificing literally everything to get there, or the class is specifically designed/balanced around it (cast times on heals, fewer mitigation options than other classes, etc.).

coop500 · April 23

Oh yeah I totally forgot about weapon drawing and sheathing, that's another reason that it's bad for material gathering. I haven't actually used the skill for anything in years oops lol.

Emeratis · April 23

A build only has so much power budget allowed to it for balance sake. Are you willing to give up something else for this? I personally would rather werewolf have other strengths highlighted and I worry that penalties incurred for this kind of buff would not be worth it longterm.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Streak is actually really bad for material gathering (beyond just the 1 second stutter it has), because casting streak draws your weapons so to interact with a node you need to sheath your weapons (which takes another second) before you actually interact with the node, so using streak to gather materials is much slower than just moving at speed cap with weapons always sheathed.

Ring of the Wild Hunt mythic has been best for me for resource gathering. +45% movement speed (so basically always at cap even when not sprinting) and just running node to node to gather materials.

The only time streak is useful is if there's a super niche area with a gap to cross for the most efficient path that would otherwise need a longer route to run around, but those area's are typically not very efficient for material gathering, even with streak since they don't really have many nodes (or densely packed nodes) like starter zones or a few other areas.

It appears that a resource gathering meta already exists. Lets shake that meta up. Werewolf speed!

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

Emeratis wrote: »

A build only has so much power budget allowed to it for balance sake. Are you willing to give up something else for this? I personally would rather werewolf have other strengths highlighted and I worry that penalties incurred for this kind of buff would not be worth it longterm.

This is totally a fair point. Personally I'm not sure werewolf has reached the ceiling of the power budget but that's just me.

coop500 · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Streak is actually really bad for material gathering (beyond just the 1 second stutter it has), because casting streak draws your weapons so to interact with a node you need to sheath your weapons (which takes another second) before you actually interact with the node, so using streak to gather materials is much slower than just moving at speed cap with weapons always sheathed.

Ring of the Wild Hunt mythic has been best for me for resource gathering. +45% movement speed (so basically always at cap even when not sprinting) and just running node to node to gather materials.

The only time streak is useful is if there's a super niche area with a gap to cross for the most efficient path that would otherwise need a longer route to run around, but those area's are typically not very efficient for material gathering, even with streak since they don't really have many nodes (or densely packed nodes) like starter zones or a few other areas.

It appears that a resource gathering meta already exists. Lets shake that meta up. Werewolf speed!

The problem with this is, the current gathering meta can be ran by anybody and enjoy their character as they are. There's a LOT of people who hate werewolf for various reasons, some out of principle, and will 100% give even more flak than werewolves are already getting.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

coop500 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Streak is actually really bad for material gathering (beyond just the 1 second stutter it has), because casting streak draws your weapons so to interact with a node you need to sheath your weapons (which takes another second) before you actually interact with the node, so using streak to gather materials is much slower than just moving at speed cap with weapons always sheathed.

Ring of the Wild Hunt mythic has been best for me for resource gathering. +45% movement speed (so basically always at cap even when not sprinting) and just running node to node to gather materials.

The only time streak is useful is if there's a super niche area with a gap to cross for the most efficient path that would otherwise need a longer route to run around, but those area's are typically not very efficient for material gathering, even with streak since they don't really have many nodes (or densely packed nodes) like starter zones or a few other areas.

It appears that a resource gathering meta already exists. Lets shake that meta up. Werewolf speed!

The problem with this is, the current gathering meta can be ran by anybody and enjoy their character as they are. There's a LOT of people who hate werewolf for various reasons, some out of principle, and will 100% give even more flak than werewolves are already getting.

I understand - this is an unfortunate interaction. Would there be any method or condition that would eliminate this issue? Only exceed speed cap while in combat perhaps?

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As for increasing WW speed cap, I can see where you're coming from, but this game already has too much speed as it is.

Giving WW a higher baseline speed than non-WW form rather than increasing the cap would probably be more appropriate, so WW doesn't have to look for sources of speed such as Celerity champion perk, medium armor passives, sets, swift jewelry traits, etc. and can focus it's build more on other areas.

Overall though, the game as a whole needs a massive slow down applied across the board. No class/build should be anywhere near the movement speed cap unless sacrificing literally everything to get there, or the class is specifically designed/balanced around it (cast times on heals, fewer mitigation options than other classes, etc.).

I see your reasoning around this

hoangdz · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Currently, a streak user with a max movement speed build already effectively exceeds the movement speed cap when you factor in streak usage and sprinting over a protracted distance.

Why should a werewolf be slower than this? We do not have all the utility that a streak using sorc or subclassed build has with a variety of self and cross heals and shields. We do not have any ranged attacks. We are purely melee. We should be able to close distance and create distance better than any other playable class.

Because why on Earth should a dog be able to run faster than lightning itself? Makes zero sense

xylena · April 23

hoangdz wrote: »

Because why on Earth should a dog be able to run faster than lightning itself?

magic duh

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 23

You can have this feature as long as Stage 4 vamps are able to fly.

Gabriel_H · April 23

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf definitely should have an increased Movement Speed cap. Not only do we have a larger model so moving faster makes more sense

Size and speed are related, but it's on an asymmetrical bell curve. Intermediate weight animals tend to be the speediest, somewhere around 50kg is the sweets spot, a cheetah for example.

After that the speed drops as weight increases, before cratering at higher weights. This would mean that a werewolf, being bigger than a human (~65kg) would be slower, not faster.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Werewolf definitely should have an increased Movement Speed cap. Not only do we have a larger model so moving faster makes more sense

Size and speed are related, but it's on an asymmetrical bell curve. Intermediate weight animals tend to be the speediest, somewhere around 50kg is the sweets spot, a cheetah for example.

After that the speed drops as weight increases, before cratering at higher weights. This would mean that a werewolf, being bigger than a human (~65kg) would be slower, not faster.

Grizzly bears can reach 35-40 mph and wolves around 35 mph.

hoangdz wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Currently, a streak user with a max movement speed build already effectively exceeds the movement speed cap when you factor in streak usage and sprinting over a protracted distance.

Why should a werewolf be slower than this? We do not have all the utility that a streak using sorc or subclassed build has with a variety of self and cross heals and shields. We do not have any ranged attacks. We are purely melee. We should be able to close distance and create distance better than any other playable class.

Because why on Earth should a dog be able to run faster than lightning itself? Makes zero sense

Another Mages guild lobbyists 😒😆😁

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You can have this feature as long as Stage 4 vamps are able to fly.

I mean maybe? But then again vamps can move incredibly fast in stealth and still use all other skills so maybe that is cool and unique enough?

In all seriousness I acknowledge the validity of some points here.

I think werewolf should at least be able be able to exceed the cap while using the new rampage secondary ulti ability while it is active sort of evoking the temporary sprint speed of a bear or wolf that is on the chase, that last s20 seconds and cannot be used very often.

I also still think there is merit to out of combat mounted speed for werewolf too. Maybe there is some pre and post animation equal to mounting up and dismounting that would eliminate any advantage it my cause.

dark_hunterxmg · April 23

The new Werewolf feels painfully slow compared to live. There must be something missing in the passive bonuses. I tried adding 3 swift + major expedition and it was very underwhelming.

virtus753 · April 23

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

This has to be done very carefully, as the movement speed cap is there for a reason. I'm personally fine with the current speed cap, including for werewolf, as there's a lot of fringe cases you have to keep in mind. Including PvP, but also another thing nobody mentioned yet.

Since the timer doesn't drop out of combat, this would make werewolf 100% meta for farming mats in the starter zones to beat other players to it. I dunno about you guys, but while I would enjoy that in a bubble, it's not fair to other players, and thus one major reason I'd have to say this isn't a good idea.

I also rather not remove Werewolf ability to harvest at all, so I think this is something best left be.

I'm thinking about this a bit more - wouldn't a streaking max speed build be the best currently then?

Streak is actually really bad for material gathering (beyond just the 1 second stutter it has), because casting streak draws your weapons so to interact with a node you need to sheath your weapons (which takes another second) before you actually interact with the node, so using streak to gather materials is much slower than just moving at speed cap with weapons always sheathed.

Ring of the Wild Hunt mythic has been best for me for resource gathering. +45% movement speed (so basically always at cap even when not sprinting) and just running node to node to gather materials.

The only time streak is useful is if there's a super niche area with a gap to cross for the most efficient path that would otherwise need a longer route to run around, but those area's are typically not very efficient for material gathering, even with streak since they don't really have many nodes (or densely packed nodes) like starter zones or a few other areas.

It appears that a resource gathering meta already exists. Lets shake that meta up. Werewolf speed!

The problem with this is, the current gathering meta can be ran by anybody and enjoy their character as they are. There's a LOT of people who hate werewolf for various reasons, some out of principle, and will 100% give even more flak than werewolves are already getting.

I understand - this is an unfortunate interaction. Would there be any method or condition that would eliminate this issue? Only exceed speed cap while in combat perhaps?

The speed cap exists in large part because of issues in combat. The game has enough desync as it is with the current cap. Exceeding it would exacerbate that problem when players are moving too fast for the game to keep up with.

That’s a big part of why movement speed is hard capped but mounted speed is not.

coop500 · April 23

I feel like the only one who feels like the werewolf speed is perfectly fine haha.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The new Werewolf feels painfully slow compared to live. There must be something missing in the passive bonuses. I tried adding 3 swift + major expedition and it was very underwhelming.

I totally agree. For those of us who have clocked 1000s of hours playing werewolf it was painfully obvious that something didn't feel right about werewolf movement speed the moment we logged into PTS. I couldn't put my finger on it at first so I have been doing some testing. I'd like this testing to be peer reviewed in case I missed something.

PTS werewolf speed test. I'm using the speedometer addon to measure speed.

Max Speed: From what I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) the max movement speed in ESO is roughly 53.5 m/s? I'm not totally sure about this somebody confirm for me.

Human Build in 6 Medium / 1 Heavy showing 161% Sprint Speed on advance stats

Human Sprint measured speed: 44.5 M/S
Werewolf Sprint measured speed: 52.5 M/S This should be a 30% multiplicative increase, but in practice it only results in ~18–20% due to proximity to the movement speed cap
Rampage Sprint measured speed: 53.5 M/S This is supposed to be another 20% increase but since a werewolf build with some medium armor will be high movement speed by default, this

Human Build in 1 Medium / 6 Heavy showing 141% Sprint Speed on advance stats

Human Sprint measured speed: 39.1 M/S
Werewolf Sprint measured speed: 47 M/S This is supposed to be 30% increase from human form but is actually 20.2% increase. This datapoint was stronger evidence for me that something isn't working right vs. capping out at movement speed cap
Rampage Sprint measured speed: 52 M/S This is 33% increase over original speed, and 10% increase over ww sprint speed

On the one hand it many cases we are pushing up against the max speed cap, but unless I'm hallucinating even then I don't think the werewolf speed bonuses are working correctly. On top of that, the size increase is causing a feeling that the werewolf is slower. I call this the "mammoth effect" i.e. you feel slower when riding a mammoth. So a few things are compounding here causing the feeling of slower werewolf speed on PTS.

Meanwhile, I'll note that with a streaking sorc I have been able to measure a max speed of 106 m/s. I'm not sure what that averages out to over distance but I'm pretty sure it's significantly over the max speed cap.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

coop500 wrote: »

I feel like the only one who feels like the werewolf speed is perfectly fine haha.

this is a perfectly valid opinion!

coop500 · April 23

I have over 7K hours into the game and play mostly for werewolf too, so this ain't a 'lack of experience' thing.

Folks gotta understand that the model is bigger now, we're not a tiny little ratdog running around anymore, thank goodness. We're a big beast, but that speed may FEEL slower as a result. Maybe a passive isn't working, there's already a combat one that doesn't. BUT I don't think werewolf needs to be as fast as a mount, that has varying balance issues that people aren't thinking about.

Celas_Dranacea · April 23

coop500 wrote: »

I have over 7K hours into the game and play mostly for werewolf too, so this ain't a 'lack of experience' thing.

Folks gotta understand that the model is bigger now, we're not a tiny little ratdog running around anymore, thank goodness. We're a big beast, but that speed may FEEL slower as a result. Maybe a passive isn't working, there's already a combat one that doesn't. BUT I don't think werewolf needs to be as fast as a mount, that has varying balance issues that people aren't thinking about.

I don't think we're far out of alignment - I think your opinion is valid. You are worried that something else would get nerfed in favor of this. Valid! If it is a trade-off I would sooner have werewolf be viable in PvE and PvP thats for sure.

Agreed the passives should be looked at to confirm they are working correctly. I think something is off.

I understand your point about mounted speed issues. I could envision a situation where balance issues are resolved, but I acknowledge the issues you and others have raised.

All this to say, I will capitulate on some of my werewolf speed desires, and just argue that we should be able to push past the speed cap in PVP for that 20 second window we are in rampage. because in 90% of cases that increased rampage speed might as well not exist currently - it's supposed to be a bonus but in effect most werewolves would never really benefit much from it.