React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

Looks like abusing multiple proc set interactions with static reverberation. Those should get adjusted first before we go calling for nerfs on a playstyle that's been worse than necro for the last 5 years.

React wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

His ability bar is visible the whole time. Addons don't change anything within the game.

I posted pelican's CMX in this thread showing what he was using anyways, but you guys told me it didn't prove anything and requested video evidence. Theres the video.

Come on man, how are we supposed to know that what he's running in the video is the same thing as what the CMX was showing? None of us are mind readers, so let's not act like everyone should have already known. I hadn't even noticed initially that the guy's name was on those CMX screens so didn't know it was his stuff, either. We also still don't know what else this person was running aside from Relequin in the first batch of screens or what ANY of his Sets in the second batch you provided were. Part of this whole thing asking for proof is for us to get info on BUILDS that both other people AND the WW are using. Because if it's the same few builds over and over and over that's not going to give us any actual variation in information to pull from.

And the main thing is if he's a Sorc in all those clips in the video you posted, that isn't telling us whether WW is overtuned or whether the Sorc Mastery Passives is. Get this guy to make a NB WW, a Subclassing WW, any Class that ISN'T a Sorc, or hell just a Sorc that isn't using those Passives. If all the clips in that video are him being a Sorc using those Passives, it literally does not indicate anything other than those Passives needing changes rather than WW needing it.

Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?

Yes, I think the abilities correctly portray the mechanics of each ability. Pounce ability's 2 effects could be perhaps made a bit more distinctive, sometime it's hard to tell visually when Carnage is applied and its impact is limited as is as a dot.


Are there any key Werewolf changes that you enjoyed?

I love the combo mechanics of blood hunger and fury allowing us to unleash the Rampage ultimate in game and playing off of Claws and Gnash--I loved this so much I would like to see blood hunger have interactions with Hircine's Fortitude/Rage and Pounce if possible perhaps in future updates as well to pick and choose how to react in given situations.

Are there any key Werewolf changes that did not feel great?

Visually the ultimate Rampage with the red particle effects around the arms could be made a bit more pronounced for visibility once active perhaps. Light attack weaving and heavy attack weaving feel slower now and harder to animation cancel than on Live, but if that is intended, then I think the ease of using werewolf abilities on the whole makes up for this.

Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes?

I personally enjoy the white form, but if we could make it a bit more dynamic or maybe introduce a tan color or other fur color options at some point it would be amazing.

Set wise, I think if we could also update old sets like Salvation Set and the mythic set Shapeshifter's chain it could be awesome to open up additional build options and be exciting to see.

Can Shapeshifter's Chain and Salvation be modified to interact with the new Werewolf more? For instance, one of them could increase Fury generation, and another could remove the Ultimate drain in combat altogether. Currently, both sets have the same purpose — reducing the cost of Werewolf Transformation, which includes the drain each 10 seconds.

Shapeshifter's Chain as a 1 piece Mythic has the added bonus of reducing the cost of the rest of the Werewolf abilities, which is less useful now that all the Stamina abilities were made cheaper, but at least it's still useful for making the heal cheaper.


Salvation, on the other hand, is not worth 5 item slots in my opinion. Sure, it reduces the drain by one third, but that's only useful for solo Werewolf Berserkers, and since those are damage dealers, they need more than just 150 WD/SD for the 5 piece bonus. The 2-4 piece bonuses (2x Maximum Stamina, 1x Stamina Recovery) are also not ideal for a damage dealer setup.

And now to actually do this:

[*] Do the refreshed abilities correctly portray the mechanics of the ability?
I uh...admittedly dont quite understand what this is asking. If it means do the Skill descriptions properly/adequately indicate their mechanics then I'd say yes, they seem to explain the mechanics right. Aside from that I'm not reeeaaaaally sure what else this could mean, ahah. My brain is lacking wrinkles I think.

[*] Are there any key Werewolf changes that you enjoyed?
Most of it, really. Most things feel like they have weight and power behind them, dodge roll animations are nice (especially the back one, the little spin is cool), the model looks so much better than Live currently, the Skills all look and sound good, WWs being able to bring group buffs and such is nice so they can actually be wanted in group content...most of the changes are great.

[*] Are there any key Werewolf changes that did not feel great?
My main issue is Ult sustain for Berserker. Even making sure you're doing correct stuff to max Fury generation, even using Oakensoul or Heroism Pots for Minor Heroism, and even when making sure to use Light or Heavy Attacks to generate Ult, it still isn't enough unless you go into a fight with full or near full Ult.

It's fine in shorter fights against trash packs, where the fights only last a few seconds and you can Devour (sorry but Insatiable Hunger just sounds weird lol) to get Ult back/pause the drain for a few, but in extended fights where you either don't have access to trash/adds or can't safely use Devour? Yeah that Ult drain is awful. I've already posted a thread on ways to help with that and other people have offered suggestions in that thread too. I really don't want to have a build's viability be based on *other* peoples' builds, aka having to rely on other people running WW/Pack Leader.

Next, jumping. Jumping feels TOO heavy. It seems like we can't jump as high or as far while transformed, which strikes me as weird given Pounce (which lets us gain not just distance but also height) and the fact that wolves irl are VERY capable of jumping. One would thus think that a WW, if not able to jump higher and farther than someone not in WW form, would at least jump the same height and distance. I suppose it could just feel that way because the WW model is bigger now, so it only looks like less height/distance? I don't know, it just looks off to me.

Another thing with jumping is that the legs stick out at a weird stiff-looking angle while in the air. I'd expect legs to move/stay under an animal after jumping in order to, you know, land on them, but the legs on a WW don't seem to go back under them until right as they're landing or like...a fraction of a second from landing. It looks wonky.

[*] Is there anything else you would like to share about the Werewolf changes?
I really think Shapeshifter's Chain needs to be updated with WW's Skills being so heavily reduced in cost now. That part of the Mythic is largely useless, as theres no real need to reduce the costs even further, and as it is it doesn't take into account any of the updates to WW like Ult drain, Blood Hunger, OR Fury/Rampage. I'd say the full WW Sets should also have more added to them as well to reflect these new mechanics.

Hide of the Werewolf giving 18 Ult I assume still happens upon taking damage, and once every five seconds? Nothing in the Patch Notes indicates those parts changed and I haven't bothered with making a template character yet to check on the PTS. Either way, that's too infrequent a proc and not really worth giving up a set that brings more damage, healing, or utility.

Savage Werewolf getting a 6% damage increase while transformed is...not really that great considering numerous other sets give higher damage without the caveat of having to be in WW form. You've got things like Deadly Strike that give Claw Fury/Bloodclaws and I assume Pounce a hell of a boost, things like Tideborn giving a flat increase against PvE mobs that's double what Savage WW's boost is that could boost Gnash (since I assume it's direct damage). Ansuul’s Torment also does a 6% boost against mobs but it bumps up to 18% now for 30 seconds after an interrupt. Granted that's a bit situational but still. While Savage might be better for PvP and for Pack Leader since that Morph has an easier time upkeeping Ult to stay in WW form, for Berserker running any other number of Sets that boost your damage somehow and DON'T require you to be in WW form can be more advantageous since as it is you'll be spending a decent amount of time out of WW form in longer fights without any mobs to eat.

React wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

Looks like abusing multiple proc set interactions with static reverberation. Those should get adjusted first before we go calling for nerfs on a playstyle that's been worse than necro for the last 5 years.

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

His ability bar is visible the whole time. Addons don't change anything within the game.

I posted pelican's CMX in this thread showing what he was using anyways, but you guys told me it didn't prove anything and requested video evidence. Theres the video.

Remove the block squares, you are hiding information.

Also if you or your friends have encountered a specific bug or proc set interactions with Relequen and the Sorc Class Mastery passives that the videos appear to show are causing some kind of effect or issue in the game, I would encourage you both to use the in-game support feature to submit the bugs as a ticket.

Arunei wrote: »

React wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

His ability bar is visible the whole time. Addons don't change anything within the game.

I posted pelican's CMX in this thread showing what he was using anyways, but you guys told me it didn't prove anything and requested video evidence. Theres the video.

Come on man, how are we supposed to know that what he's running in the video is the same thing as what the CMX was showing? None of us are mind readers, so let's not act like everyone should have already known. I hadn't even noticed initially that the guy's name was on those CMX screens so didn't know it was his stuff, either. We also still don't know what else this person was running aside from Relequin in the first batch of screens or what ANY of his Sets in the second batch you provided were. Part of this whole thing asking for proof is for us to get info on BUILDS that both other people AND the WW are using. Because if it's the same few builds over and over and over that's not going to give us any actual variation in information to pull from.

And the main thing is if he's a Sorc in all those clips in the video you posted, that isn't telling us whether WW is overtuned or whether the Sorc Mastery Passives is. Get this guy to make a NB WW, a Subclassing WW, any Class that ISN'T a Sorc, or hell just a Sorc that isn't using those Passives. If all the clips in that video are him being a Sorc using those Passives, it literally does not indicate anything other than those Passives needing changes rather than WW needing it.

See the below comment for the uncensored video. The remaining black box is just covering his chatbox.

React wrote: »

Here's the video without the AUI covered. The other black box is just the chatbox being censored.

https://youtu.be/8i0KEthi4q8?si=s-oEOZd0gnx6vKR8

Genuine question, does the uncensored video show his Sets, his Class, and his Passives? If not then it doesn't address the issue of not knowing what's actually going on in terms of interactions with those things and WW Skills.

And is he a Sorc in all those clips? Because if he is, then the video doesn't address one of the main potential issues, which is Sorc's Mastery Passives potentially being the problem rather than WW. There can't be claims that WW is overperforming if literally the only stats/videos are WWs running the Sorc Passives that might actually be what need finetuning. This is why I have said over and over we need data from different builds to see if WW is overperforming on ALL of them, or whether it's just Sorc WWs that are.

Yarcanine wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Yes

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

React wrote: »

For all of those asking for video proof of WW overperforming, here you go. Keep in mind that some of the players in this video are genuinely amongst the top pvp players in the entire game, getting absolutely obliterated with almost no chance of fighting back at all by a guy weaving two damaging skills with light attacks and 40k hp.

There is no defending how broken this is.

https://youtu.be/zYtbITjCW-4?si=geC3xCf8s0W9IhWw

This person is covering up their ability bar and add-ons, so I think this video is disingenuous. We would need full transparency if something is really going on otherwise who is to say this player is not simply exploiting---either in sets or in class mastery passives or other interactions we haven't thought of, those appear to be the real overpowered element.

His ability bar is visible the whole time. Addons don't change anything within the game.

I posted pelican's CMX in this thread showing what he was using anyways, but you guys told me it didn't prove anything and requested video evidence. Theres the video.

Remove the block squares, you are hiding information.

Also if you or your friends have encountered a specific bug or proc set interactions with Relequen and the Sorc Class Mastery passives that the videos appear to show are causing some kind of effect or issue in the game, I would encourage you both to use the in-game support feature to submit the bugs as a ticket.

Just seems like rele + twice fanged with the huntsman mythic and then just dumped a lot of points into hp.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

If the majority of the player base isn’t hitting it then it shouldn’t matter if WW gets nerfed or not, right? I mean, if they can’t reach 10k DPS when WW is at its strongest, then why should any of them worry at all when WW gets nerfed for the top 0.1%?

Well then we're back to asking what exactly we're supposed to nerf about it. Has the top 0.1% tested WW builds on classes other than Sorc?

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

If the majority of the player base isn’t hitting it then it shouldn’t matter if WW gets nerfed or not, right? I mean, if they can’t reach 10k DPS when WW is at its strongest, then why should any of them worry at all when WW gets nerfed for the top 0.1%?

Well then we're back to asking what exactly we're supposed to nerf about it. Has the top 0.1% tested WW builds on classes other than Sorc?

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So we're in agreement then that the Mastery Passives are potentially the issue here and NOT WW itself needing a nerf? Because so far it seems like all the proof that's been submitted is from/involving someone that's running Sorc with two potentially super overtuned Mastery Passives, judging from a screenshot someone else posted several pages back of both of those hitting some pretty insane numbers.

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

CAB_Life wrote: »

I like the glowing marks—just make them a toggle or skill style option for those who don’t.

I really love this suggestion. I too really enjoy the glowy marks and am hopeful we will get to see more skill style options in future releases. ^_^

hoangdz wrote: »

No, WW itself is still too strong. I could have Pelican on WW and myself on Sorc/DK, both without class masteries, and WW would still be significantly stronger.

But I know that most people here wouldn't want to accept that fact either. I can already see the dismissive comments like "It's just a 1v1" or "We don't know how it performs in Cyro/BG/etc". Those were the exact comments used to argue with me when I raised concern about old Sorc and reworked DK being overperforming. It didn't take long for multiple threads to occur after those patches went live, CONFIRMING my concern.

Look I get it, you and many people here want WW to stay as it is, and that's fair. But let's not try to sugarcoat it with balance discussions, as a simple fight on PTS clearly shows otherwise. Just state the blatantly obvious intention that you and many others want WW to overperform for once. That I can understand.

I would happily support a nerf if there was adequate information to support it. There isn't. I don't play WW so I have no reason whatsoever to want them OP. Let's see this "OP WW" on a templar base or a NB or necro. Just anything that isn't a sorc or DK where they're clearly performing well as we'd all expect.

If the WW itself is the problem, rather than the base it's on, it would be over performing on everything. But let's be honest, the issue is with specific combinations + WW. It looks like a couple of builds that create a stronger base and the combination(s) need adjusted. Not a blanket nerf to WW. You're asking for the devs to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's 100% fair for others to ask for genuine proof that the WW deserves it. We aren't just trying to keep WW OP, we're just trying to avoid a completely unnecessary nerf because a few players don't like WW and/or single bar PvP builds.

A static duel is totally different from BGs and Cyro or IC where fights are mobile and the WW can't get the damage done as easily. So yes, some of us are going to mention that difference and be interested in seeing more "realistic" fights. I was in Cyro with my guild last night. Literally all that was said about WW was "I hear werewolves are winning duels now" lol. None of us are remotely worried that a WW ballgroup will appear or that we'll be torn up in IC or BGs. Nobody will be worried unless we see something of concern.

Nobody is asking too much when they want to see the results across a range of examples and situations. It's called making an informed decision. I can't make an informed decision with only a few pieces of information. So if the WW is so so bad, and some of you are that concerned, it's not too much trouble to show different base class builds and more realistic fights.

I think it´s a bit disingenuous to demand proof of all types of PvP content on PTS, especially since it´s realistically impossible to provide. Things like large scale Cyrodiil isn´t going to happen because you´ll never gather 100+ people for testing. Regarding battlegrounds, people have tried in the past to do BG´s on PTS (myself included) and it´s a hot mess with queues never popping even when you coordinate with other groups. While dueling isn´t a metric to decide everything, like with any data it´s how you interpretate the information that´s gathered. Anyone with enough experience of PvP can test something in a duel and make further conclusions if X, Y, Z is going to be overperforming in other contexts. Someone with enough experience can look at patch notes and quickly figure out that certain skills, sets etc will overperform, even without extensive testing. People like React, Pelican, Static, Strepsels etc are people that falls into that category in my opinion.

I´ve gone over the werewolf patch notes a few times, and if we for a second exclude class masteries (which is pointless because nothing ever overperforms in a vacuum and never has in the entire history of ESO), the amount of extra damage, sustain, stat bloat and buff coverage werewolf has received on PTS is absolutely crazy. Even Wolfhunter update didn´t change werewolf to this extent. I´ll go into more details on the skills I find a bit problematic tied to the werewolf itself:

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

If the majority of the player base isn’t hitting it then it shouldn’t matter if WW gets nerfed or not, right? I mean, if they can’t reach 10k DPS when WW is at its strongest, then why should any of them worry at all when WW gets nerfed for the top 0.1%?

Well then we're back to asking what exactly we're supposed to nerf about it. Has the top 0.1% tested WW builds on classes other than Sorc?

Nerf WW's interaction with class masteries. While we're at it, nerf DK's Wildfire passive as well.

So we're in agreement then that the Mastery Passives are potentially the issue here and NOT WW itself needing a nerf? Because so far it seems like all the proof that's been submitted is from/involving someone that's running Sorc with two potentially super overtuned Mastery Passives, judging from a screenshot someone else posted several pages back of both of those hitting some pretty insane numbers.

No. It is Werewolf. As already stated; those class masteries are not overtuned. They only become overtuned when coupled with Werewolf and proc sets. Pair them with a traditional MagSorc (probably the intended target for these masteries), and they do almost nothing. Static Reverberation needs a change of its mechanic as well, but this is only the cherry on top that pushes Werewolf from OP to broken.

And it can not be said often enough: Werewolf is apparently missing 33% Weapon Damage right now. Add this, and you don't even need Static Reverberation anymore to enter the broken territory.

the glowy marks on werewolf are overdone. the glowy red streaks on berserker especially are just too much. it isn't a deal breaker but I would really encourage adding an option to hide them.

Dracane wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Overamera wrote: »

We got video evidence

Evidence of what though? All those top 0.1% duelers and none of them bother to test WW on classes other than Sorc? Conservation of Energy is the problem enabler here, and would be the bigger problem in open world where Sorc is much more playable than WW.

Conservation could be adjusted to proc only on Sorc class skills (maybe buff the effect if its conditions are more restricted). It doesn't need to proc off WW skills that have absolutely nothing to do with playing Sorceror, and I doubt WW mains want to be forced into base Sorc.

If base Arc or Necro WW still completely dominates against top 0.1% duelers on meta Sorc or DK, without any busted procs like Relequen, then yeah we can say WW is the issue. But if it's only the one combination with Sorc Mastery, then that specific interaction is the problem.

Conservation of Energy is not the enabler. The primary horror is Static Reverberation. That is where this dramatic pressure comes from that no one can withstand. The Werewolf sustaining better wouldn't terrify anyone if it wasn't coupled with horror DPS from a proc passive.

"Terrifying DPS" - 7-8% damage done on cmx... something doesn't check out here.

Conservation of Energy gives you 4-5k tooltip heal every time you use an ability or even dodge roll (if you combine this with Gorethief you're getting 10k+ worth of tooltip healing every roll), on top of enabling you to spam those rolls atleast twice as much as someone who is not a sorcerer WW.

I'd recommend testing this on PTS, the difference is night and day if you try to werewolf on other classes.