A social issue people are reluctant to bring up

Taarente · April 16

Athory wrote: »

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.
People want to show off their DPS.

They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.

Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?
Toxicity is out of control

It keeps getting worse

Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.

Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.
Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.

All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

I'm going to take issue with this
- Logs measure damage output well
- They measure everything else poorly or indirectly
- Groups that recruit only on DPS are optimising for one variable
- Real performance is multi-dimensional

Athory · April 16

Casul wrote: »

I prefer “toxic elitist” groups to be honest. Everyone is held to the same standard and must bring their A game. Nobody is getting carried and everyone pulls their own weight. Easy peasy.

ofc.... and then, this! blablablabla "getting carried" = DPS sharing and/or logs
and it’s because of players like this one that ZoS should really change how logs and DPS sharing are used.

Bguk · April 16

Athory wrote: »

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.
People want to show off their DPS.

They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.

Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?
Toxicity is out of control

It keeps getting worse

Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.

Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.
Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.

All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

I was going to write a whole long post, yet decided to make it waaaay smaller.

Find others to play like you play. Create your own groups. It's pretty simple. Those who you say participate in "gatekeeping" enjoy playing a certain way. If that's not to your liking, find others who are to your liking. You cannot force everyone to play the way you want them to, logs or not. I feel if it wasn't damage logs, there'd be posts about being excluded from a group for X reason.

Elvenheart · April 16

Athory wrote: »

If logs and DPS sharing are not the real reasons behind all the toxicity in the game, then what is? But please, give me a valid answer that doesn’t end up being related to logs or DPS sharing.

Just a comment on this part, you are most likely right that logs and DPS sharing are behind SOME of the toxicity in the game and made some very good points related to that, but only in instances where people are being toxic for those very reasons. People can be toxic for so many different reasons others have mentioned, and people can even be toxic for NO discernible reason whatsoever, like maybe they had a bad day and are just taking it out on other players in the game. Or it might have nothing at all to do with how much damage someone does, but instead, something someone says getting taken the wrong way.

I’m one of the lucky players that has never been a victim of any toxic behavior whatsoever so I don’t really have irons in this fire, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on “all” verses “some”. 🙂

Athory · April 16

We need 34 posts just to reduce toxicity to this:

Casul wrote: »

"...getting carried..."

Bguk wrote: »

"... Create your own groups. ..."

And this is exactly why toxicity will never end!

Athory · April 16

Elvenheart wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

If logs and DPS sharing are not the real reasons behind all the toxicity in the game, then what is? But please, give me a valid answer that doesn’t end up being related to logs or DPS sharing.

Just a comment on this part, you are most likely right that logs and DPS sharing are behind SOME of the toxicity in the game and made some very good points related to that, but only in instances where people are being toxic for those very reasons. People can be toxic for so many different reasons others have mentioned, and people can even be toxic for NO discernible reason whatsoever, like maybe they had a bad day and are just taking it out on other players in the game. Or it might have nothing at all to do with how much damage someone does, but instead, something someone says getting taken the wrong way.

I’m one of the lucky players that has never been a victim of any toxic behavior whatsoever so I don’t really have irons in this fire, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on “all” verses “some”. 🙂

Of course, there are a lot of other reasons for toxicity. But they’re just a small part of the bigger problem.

I kick others because of low DPS.
I got kicked because of low DPS.
I kick others because of HA builds.
I got kicked because of HA builds.
I kick others because they don’t use meta healing sets.
I got kicked because I didn’t use meta sets.
I kick tanks because of “bad” sets.
(I’ve never been kicked as a tank because I don’t play tank.)

All the kicks I’ve experienced or done come down to DPS checking and/or log related reasons.
I’m just one player, like the ones I’m against, because we all have access to the same tools that enable this behavior.

But the true point remains: DPS sharing and logs are the real root cause of a lot (all) of the toxicity.

I’ve never kicked someone for using bad words because they were having a bad day, and I’ve never been kicked for doing the same. Why? Because that could lead to a real in-game ban. People know the limits there, and they usually don’t cross them.
Now, let’s calculate the amount of “toxicity” created by DPS sharing and logs versus someone who is just having a bad day.

Orbital78 · April 16

If you're that scared of being singled out, isn't there an anonymous option? You're still in the logs but not named.

It is really a non-issue if you're in a friendly guild.

Athory wrote: »

We need 34 posts just to reduce toxicity to this:

Casul wrote: »

"...getting carried..."

Bguk wrote: »

"... Create your own groups. ..."

And this is exactly why toxicity will never end!

It isn't really toxicity though. You're trying to fit in where you don't. There is a group of people for everyone somewhere in eso. It probably isn't in the group finder or the sweatiest of hard mode trial guilds.

Dps sharing isn't the issue, zos and balance for low/mid tier players is.

aetherix8 · April 17

merevie wrote: »

Most of us do our best to tolerate and understand toxic players and because of that we're really reluctant to 'out' people or report them -we know this game is an escape outlet for people and they need it. However, there are some communities where it is horrible to be due to perma banned players coming back on known new accounts and Zos turning a blind eye. And we're talking about seriously awful things behind those bans.

What this is resulting in is the victims of these people giving up on ESO and giving up on their friend communities.

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

Could we get more context, is this about PvP or PvE toxicity? I experienced both, and they are rather distinct, although sometimes they share the same triggers.

If you want to push ZOS for a change, you need to be more precise. This discussion went in all directions, because the OP is too vague.

Is this about DPS logs or tbagging?

Oblivion_Protocol · April 17

Athory wrote: »

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.

That bolded statement is categorically false. Yes, there are some players who engage in toxicity over DPS parses. I’ve been rejected from runs because my DPS wasn’t high enough. But in my experience, it was just a matter of being told that my DPS was too low for what the group was looking for.

I’ve seen people get toxic over tanks that keep dying, heals that feel too low, people who don’t know or ignore mechanics, and someone getting a drop someone else wanted and not giving it to them.

And that’s PvE. If you want to talk about PvP toxicity, let’s start with people who send hateful whispers because they lost a fight, and end with the myriad exploits plaguing the landscape.

But ALL toxicity coming from DPS logs? No. Just no.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · April 17

The issue of toxic players cannot be entirely placed upon the developers. I have no doubt that every one of them is against that kind of behavior. That is not why they have designed the game. People are just going to be people whether they are awful or not. Eso is supposed to be a form of entertainment and enjoyment. Some people with these toxic attitudes find that kind of behavior to BE their entertainment sadly.

Rest assured there are many more of us (honest, patient, good hearted and kind) than there are of them.

@Athory Spot on again! Eso was best on console before add ons. People had to actually LEARN to navigate the dungeons, not rely on a mini map. People had to actually practice content and learn the mechs, not rely on alerts to play the game for them. Without them, Zos might have actually had to build its own built in price checker and many other good things over a decade.

@ZOS_Kevin Someone's personal DPS is NO ONE ELSE'S business. It is absolutely 100 percent a terrible thing for this game. The dps tracking add ons should be immediately removed. Advocates for this tool can still do share screen or other methods if the dps they want to view gives them permission to do so through said methods. People who are listed in these addons do not have a say in the matter and that is wrong. I regret not speaking out about this sooner.

Athory · April 17

@CatalinaWineMixer2

Removing DPS sharing and logging functions would be great for the game overall. However, if ZoS decides to limit these features only to true endgame content, that would also be great.

Some teams, as I mentioned before, rely on these tools to improve their performance. Trifecta teams, score-pushing teams, and world record players. These players benefit from DPS sharing and logs because they actively use them to analyze and refine their gameplay. In this context, it’s not about toxicity, it’s about improvement and achieving a specific goal.

I believe DPS sharing and logging should only be available after a group enables Hard Mode in any content, and if they opt in to participate in leaderboards. If players choose not to run Hard Mode and not compete on leaderboards, then DPS sharing and logs should be completely hidden, with no way to inspect or monitor other group members.

Casual players, guild groups, Discord roosters, and Group Finder teams should not have access to these tools when simply running normal\veteran trials or dungeons. This is where these players need space to participate, learn, and improve. They get better by playing the content itsel, not through external tools like DPS sharing or logs.

robwolf666 · April 17

I have all forms of "chat" disabled, so if even if someone did want to give me crap about something I wouldn't know about it. A very peaceful playing experience, I can tell you.

ADarklore · April 17

Well, if a player who is perma-banned buys the game again and creates a new account, then there isn't anything ZOS can do until that new account is reported enough and is determined to deserve another perma-ban. That's how it's always worked.

Angnos · April 17

@Athory I don’t know how long you’ve been playing, but before the group finder we had the Craglorn zone, where people would ask around for trials. Back then, people would ask for a certain CP level or require you to link your trial achievements to join.

So PUGs were doing this long before the group finder existed. Maybe we should get rid of CP and achievements? Maybe classes too, since some aren’t welcome in certain PUG runs?

And about gatekeeping. There is no real gatekeeping in this game. I think a lot of people don’t realize how hard it is to be a raid leader. You have to set up a roster, find 11 other players who are available on a specific date, and look for replacements when people don’t show up or sign off late (sometimes only an hour before the raid). There is also pressure to show progress during a trial, because people often won’t come back a second time if you’re wiping on the first boss of Sunspire or Dreadsail Reef for two hours.

That’s why it rubs me the wrong way when people who aren’t raid leading complain about rules and requirements. Try being a raid leader and experience the hardships that come with it. Instead of sitting on the sidelines and complaining about this or that without any responsibility. And again Pugs are the wild west in this game. Ignore them and just find a pug group that suits you more.

Logs are being used for so much more than just damage. It is also being used to see if the uptime of your buffs are okay. That you reach a certain point with your healing. If you using your resources right with the mytic that you are using etc.

In the end what I wanted to say is this. It is not the tools that are the problem. It are the people that are using it.

twisttop138 · April 17

Athory wrote: »

We just have to accept it, whether we like it or not.

Bad players will always exist, and ZoS can’t really do much about that. I mean, sure, they can ban accounts, IP addresses, and so on… but that only happens in very specific situations. It’s never going to be a “common rule.” And we all know it, they’re not going to ban everyone just for bad behavior or harsh words.

All player toxicity actually comes from DPS Sharing and logs.
That’s something we have to acknowledge, because it’s a big root of the “everyday” toxicity you see across the game. And this is something ZoS could change, but players don’t really want that.
People want to show off their DPS.

They want to queue into Group Finder, post their vKA logs, and share them on Discord so everyone can see how bad others are.

Most players enjoy that system.

So where does that leave us?
Toxicity is out of control

It keeps getting worse

Players don’t have the freedom to use any set, because everything shows up in logs. The moment someone sees you’re running Mother’s Sorrow or False God’s instead of something like Null Arca or Sul-Xan’s, you get judged for it, simply because it’s not meta. And how is the meta even defined? Correct! Through logs and DPS sharing.

Gatekeeping isn’t going anywhere, because logs\dps sharing make it easy to judge players
And because of all that, toxicity isn’t going to disappear

I honestly wish this could just be a game you log into and enjoy. But the reality is different. A lot of players don’t just want to play, they want to compare, compete, and mock others. And this is where these tools should make a difference.
Real endgame players use these tools to find the best players for their raids, Trifectas, score pushing, or world-record teams. That part is completely valid. But it represents maybe 0.10% of the playerbase, the ones who actually use these tools to improve and optimize.

All the others? They use Logs \ DPS Sharring to mock players, gatekeep, and do absolutely nothing else.

That’s the current state of The Elder Scrolls Online.

Man, you must have the worst luck to be around these horrible people that most others aren't seeing.

Also we should be careful posting our opinions as fact. It's easy to do.

Edited out the funny part. I don't feel like getting reported.

MincMincMinc · April 17

merevie wrote: »

Most of us do our best to tolerate and understand toxic players and because of that we're really reluctant to 'out' people or report them -we know this game is an escape outlet for people and they need it. However, there are some communities where it is horrible to be due to perma banned players coming back on known new accounts and Zos turning a blind eye. And we're talking about seriously awful things behind those bans.

What this is resulting in is the victims of these people giving up on ESO and giving up on their friend communities.

I'd like to ask that Zos consider move to blocking the player, not the account. It's been asked before by many people but perhaps under new leadership, it's time to raise it again.

If zos was more consistent on discipline actions and gave more reasonable responses for actions this would be great. However in reality we see bans all the time for the most random things like misunderstood names, tbagging, or even role players saying "bad words" in private messages. Its very evident that the AI tools are not working properly in more recent actions.

Many players are so worried they dont use ingame chat at all anymore if they can help it. For instance I have friends that build and tune cars and certain words that are normal to use in conversation are bannable if typed in game. We used to talk all the time ingame, but now we have to go outside to 3rd party unmoderated channels.

Before ESO felt like a thriving world, yet alot of the times it feels like an empty void game.......even though player numbers are somewhat still the same as the old days. The current team seems to be moving eso more away from an MMO and more towards a solo RPG that can be co-op kinda theme.

Bguk · April 17

Orbital78 wrote: »

If you're that scared of being singled out, isn't there an anonymous option? You're still in the logs but not named.

It is really a non-issue if you're in a friendly guild.

Athory wrote: »

We need 34 posts just to reduce toxicity to this:

Casul wrote: »

"...getting carried..."

Bguk wrote: »

"... Create your own groups. ..."

And this is exactly why toxicity will never end!

It isn't really toxicity though. You're trying to fit in where you don't. There is a group of people for everyone somewhere in eso. It probably isn't in the group finder or the sweatiest of hard mode trial guilds.

Dps sharing isn't the issue, zos and balance for low/mid tier players is.

Bolded part bears repeating, so I reposted your post

The term toxicity can encompass so many things. This can include a person trying to mold others into how they view group inclusion should be. Great post, I fear it falls on deaf ears though as this would mean someone taking personal responsibility, which is hard for some.

Orbital78 · April 17

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, if a player who is perma-banned buys the game again and creates a new account, then there isn't anything ZOS can do until that new account is reported enough and is determined to deserve another perma-ban. That's how it's always worked.

Yup I think there was a cereal cheater or exploiter in Cyrodiil, that was a YouTuber and went through dozens of accounts. It sounds like the person has issues if they're going through that many accounts.

As for not using chat, I do this too partially. I use a controller on pc, the quick chat is quite limited. Not seeing zone chat is a good thing. Now that can be toxic and just strange at times.

I was doing Scriveners and black gem foundry last night. I could tell a DPS didn't know mechs so I had to break out my keyboard, and tried to explain mechs. Scriveners was not fun, the guy blew us up 12 times and wiped us at last phase. I didn't tell him he was bad, I just made a note and moved on.

twisttop138 · April 17

Orbital78 wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, if a player who is perma-banned buys the game again and creates a new account, then there isn't anything ZOS can do until that new account is reported enough and is determined to deserve another perma-ban. That's how it's always worked.

Yup I think there was a cereal cheater or exploiter in Cyrodiil, that was a YouTuber and went through dozens of accounts. It sounds like the person has issues if they're going through that many accounts.

As for not using chat, I do this too partially. I use a controller on pc, the quick chat is quite limited. Not seeing zone chat is a good thing. Now that can be toxic and just strange at times.

I was doing Scriveners and black gem foundry last night. I could tell a DPS didn't know mechs so I had to break out my keyboard, and tried to explain mechs. Scriveners was not fun, the guy blew us up 12 times and wiped us at last phase. I didn't tell him he was bad, I just made a note and moved on.

You can't help everyone but I admire the effort. We do vet dungeon and trial teaching groups every week in guild that I usually am part of and I wish there were more like yourself. Sometimes players just need understanding, some patience and a little advice. This can turn someone who hates group content into the next guy joining your prog team. I've seen it happen. Toxicity can be everywhere if that's all you see and you can only be gatekept if you allow it to happen. Some groups are just not for you. That's ok.

Ezhh · April 17

Maybe worth pointing out that logs can also be used to cut off toxicity and gatekeeping as easily as they can be used to reinforce it. I've seen plenty of inaccurate claims that a group is failing because a certain player is bad, then the log gets checked and no, they are doing their job just fine.

Mostly my groups have just used them for things like how to improve buff uptimes and so on.

The most toxic people I've encountered in game, and I've run into a couple of bad ones over the years, had nothing to do with logs or dps and everything to do with the types of people they were.

Darque.Fluxb14a_ESO · April 17

Athory wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

If logs and DPS sharing are not the real reasons behind all the toxicity in the game, then what is? But please, give me a valid answer that doesn’t end up being related to logs or DPS sharing.

Just a comment on this part, you are most likely right that logs and DPS sharing are behind SOME of the toxicity in the game and made some very good points related to that, but only in instances where people are being toxic for those very reasons. People can be toxic for so many different reasons others have mentioned, and people can even be toxic for NO discernible reason whatsoever, like maybe they had a bad day and are just taking it out on other players in the game. Or it might have nothing at all to do with how much damage someone does, but instead, something someone says getting taken the wrong way.

I’m one of the lucky players that has never been a victim of any toxic behavior whatsoever so I don’t really have irons in this fire, but I just wanted to mention my opinion on “all” verses “some”. 🙂

Of course, there are a lot of other reasons for toxicity. But they’re just a small part of the bigger problem.

I kick others because of low DPS.
I got kicked because of low DPS.
I kick others because of HA builds.
I got kicked because of HA builds.
I kick others because they don’t use meta healing sets.
I got kicked because I didn’t use meta sets.
I kick tanks because of “bad” sets.
(I’ve never been kicked as a tank because I don’t play tank.)

All the kicks I’ve experienced or done come down to DPS checking and/or log related reasons.
I’m just one player, like the ones I’m against, because we all have access to the same tools that enable this behavior.

But the true point remains: DPS sharing and logs are the real root cause of a lot (all) of the toxicity.
I’ve never kicked someone for using bad words because they were having a bad day, and I’ve never been kicked for doing the same. Why? Because that could lead to a real in-game ban. People know the limits there, and they usually don’t cross them.

Now, let’s calculate the amount of “toxicity” created by DPS sharing and logs versus someone who is just having a bad day.

You bring up an interesting point here, that leads to a solution that has nothing to do with DPS sharing nor logs. The cause of the toxicity that you are speaking of is actually due to expectation mismatch. Kicking because of not meeting some unspoken requirement is a lack of communication of the requirement. Getting kicked because of not meeting some unspoken requirement is a lack of communication of the requirement.

The solution: Communicate the requirements, Public Group Requirements should be configurable so that when you are matched, the expectations are already set.

allochthons · April 17

Consoles had plenty of toxicity before we had access to logs.

All we really had was parse videos, and screenshots of our clears.

Logs may be A source of toxicity, but they're certainly not THE source.

Casul · April 18

Athory wrote: »

Casul wrote: »

I prefer “toxic elitist” groups to be honest. Everyone is held to the same standard and must bring their A game. Nobody is getting carried and everyone pulls their own weight. Easy peasy.

ofc.... and then, this! blablablabla "getting carried" = DPS sharing and/or logs
and it’s because of players like this one that ZoS should really change how logs and DPS sharing are used.

Hate it all you want, but the fact remains. If you don’t want the “elitist” requirement of certain groups, then find groups that accommodate your requirements. This is not an issue with the system.

Attorneyatlawl · April 18

Casul wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

Casul wrote: »

I prefer “toxic elitist” groups to be honest. Everyone is held to the same standard and must bring their A game. Nobody is getting carried and everyone pulls their own weight. Easy peasy.

ofc.... and then, this! blablablabla "getting carried" = DPS sharing and/or logs
and it’s because of players like this one that ZoS should really change how logs and DPS sharing are used.

Hate it all you want, but the fact remains. If you don’t want the “elitist” requirement of certain groups, then find groups that accommodate your requirements. This is not an issue with the system.

This. No one's stopping you from leading your own group. Honestly, I find @Athory 's posts in this thread pretty toxic. Lots of hatred with blaming of tools and people wanting to play with others who are on their level.

Vaqual · April 18

Damn did they disable normal human interaction again this patch?

Athory · April 18

@Attorneyatlawl

In my opinion, casual players, whether they’re in guild runs, Discord groups, or using the group finder, should not have access to DPS meters and logs.

These tools are meant to help players improve. But in practice, that’s rarely how they’re used. I never see someone in a group finder say, “Let me check logs so I can help you get better.” Instead, logs are used as a gatekeeping tool, to judge, exclude, and kick players.

The same goes for DPS sharing. Rather than encouraging learning or teamwork, it creates pressure, comparison, and blame. People focus more on numbers than on actually playing well together. (HA builds as exemple)

Because of that, these tools end up being a major source of toxicity. They shift the focus from cooperation and enjoyment to performance policing and elitism.

If the goal is to make the experience better for the majority of players, especially in casual environments, then limiting or removing access to DPS logs and meters in those contexts would go a long way toward reducing unnecessary negativity.

EDIT:
If you don’t like my opinion, that’s fine, live with it. Just like I have to live with a game where players with zero DPS feel entitled to kick others simply because they have access to DPS meters.
They use logs to create toxicity, not to improve and at the same time, they wouldn’t last a second in any serious endgame push group. They’re not competitive players… just casuals pretending numbers make them experts.

Tallon_IV · April 18

I don't think expecting you to pull your weight is toxic.

Frayton · April 18

How did this thread get hijacked into a cry to remove logs? Leave logs alone. It's a great tool for personal and group improvement and it's not just for the sweats nor should it be restricted to sweats. If you're not familiar with raiding beyond normals and vet Crags or with how thousands of players use logs, then don't advocate for its removal or restrictions.

The irony in wanting to lock out casuals from logs to protect them from perceived gatekeeping due to logs is enough to choke a Titan.

I think appearing as anonymous in logs is enough if you want privacy in pugs, or you can be the change you want to see and just make your own group to ensure you and your group are safe from all those alleged pug loggers out there who join pugs to mock and shame casuals. Since you're the leader, you have the power to immediately boot any toxic loggers once they start their toxic log spiel.

BTW, what platform is this such a huge issue that toxicity is abounding to the point where logs must be removed or limited to protect the casuals? I'm on PCNA and raid a lot in both pugs and guilds. I've never seen logs used to bash or abuse casuals. In my experience, the average pug doesn't even know what a log is and if there's someone in a pug running logs, they don't post about it in chat.

I've found the most toxic players in pugs are often the most casual or low to mid tier players who aren't running logs. I've run logs in pugs if I'm testing a build and want to see how I personally perform with it, but I've started to run it more in pugs specifically for those toxic casuals and low level raiders who always complain in chat about low group damage or blame others for something going wrong. When it's pointed out there's a log running to prove that they're actually the problem not others, they usually shut up or leave group. Running logs in pugs is also good to find out who keeps pulling before the tanks which is a common problem in pugs that can't always be fixed by asking whoever's doing it to stop.

heimdall14_9 · April 19

@Athory

ESO PLAYERS TAKE THE TRUTH AS TOXIC !!!!!!!!!!!

in 10 years playing ive seen toxicity in ALL areas of the game from pvp to end game raids and PSN has only had add-ons for a year now so its not just about DPS trackers or LOGS as its been going on since the start of eso 1st it was killing X dungeon boss in X amount of time , then , hit X on this dummy with tanks debuff , then do X on raid dummy , to now , do X on dummy and hold Y in runs ... and as soon as someone CANT do X,Y or Z they call something toxic , WHY???? because they cant hold up to their end of the deal to be involved in the group !!!!!

ive KNOW 1 player CANT SHAME WITH NAME that gets in BGs as a 3600cp player just to stand up top never fighting 100% of the time and have seen them in over 400 BGs if not more something ever time stands up top does nothing

i wont get into the toxicity of what is PVP but with having been EMP 19xs ( 1 DC , 2 EP , 16 AD ) and being of mix alliance ( mainly to remove myself from toxicity within a alliance as i have anger issues that keeps me from holding my tongue when being disrespected ) you see and get a lot of hate and disrespect after putting 30+k hours into one area of the game ....

you see toxicity in area chat in most zones ( each platform has its spot we all heard of it at one time or another ) if its not momma talk its race hating so on so forth

but yes now since ZOS has let add-ons come to PSN there is more RULES to running content and thats because ZOS has let add-ons do more then the actual game systems do , even if some of them things are questionable exploits to the over all system of the game , build toxicity , boundaries , give advantages , forces change to development of new systems , the list of thing zos has let go to the way side in favor of ADD-ONS is why i no longer play the game as it is now , maybe with more awareness that add-ons REALLY are hurting their game they will start to look into some of these problems and deal with the major ones

ZOS_Icy · April 20

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