I am a ten year player who has all but quit PvP. I still do play it and I dont even know why (I am PvP too). The more I see what's happening there, the more disgusted I become. It is no longer PvP. It is Skill Line vs Skill line (Subclassing disaster). It is cherry picking without rules or consequences. It is an absolute out of control meta (in PvE too). It is out of control cherry picked buffs. It is out of control dps (In PvE too). It is a 1 shot stop for new players. It is a neon sign that says 'This is not in any way fun or fair whatsoever" Nearly everyone I game with has for one reason or another quit and there are many. I think this number is growing. I think the developers know this and can see it.

I think there are certain limitations to what they (the developers) can do. There is also a lot of time required to undertake changes such as a new PvP area. This game has far outlasted its original PvP design and I have no doubt there are unintended consequences involved in this on the developer side. This isn't entirely their fault. It would not be this bad if they removed Subclassing either (which is the same thing as enforcing rules on the developer side).

It is far far beyond time to stop nerfing our characters and gear. Or changing them after the fact to suit PvP. Or attempting to sabotage characters before they're even created or released to accommodate PvP. This has only and will only continue to drive players away and discourage new players from engaging in it.

Every time something new and fun comes out, here comes the hammer from PvP. Or the misuse of its intended purpose (exploit). This, everything is about dps coming out of there. 'Just a few more dps and PvP will be ok' - It will not (And that's true in PvE too). People have had enough of it. I am one of many of those. Continuing to repeat the same problematic things is not going to solve the problem. Continuing to cater to the same people who called for it to be this way is not the answer. ***The developers need to halt what is going on there and start implementing and establishing and reestablishing rules. That they (the developers) decide. And enforce them.

Vengeance is a very good thing. I have and will continue to play it. If it is available, my guilds will play it too. There are RULES involved. There is actually SKILL involved, not just builds.

@ModeratelyFM- They may have to give up on GH because its unworkable for various reasons. I believe this to be out of their control due to system constraints. ***As far as the PEOPLE in GH I do not think they will hang this population out to dry.*** I do believe what they said about a new PvP area. I would rather see them just finally separate PvP and PvE entirely if this broken (cutrent) state must continue. That is, any and all PvE sets cause you to deal 0 damage and have 0 resistances in PvP. They could still tailor the skills to be PvE only but again, if that's happening, its not really our characters in there anyway.

If they've abandoned GH, it's partly due to the community's attitude and refusal to help test stuff on Vengeance. Sorry to say it, but why should the devs try again?

If the devs made a version of GH that performed well, it would have to be a bit different from GH given that GH doesn't perform well. Is the PvP community going to bother testing it though? Or will we have another round of players refusing to engage constructively? I'm betting on the latter. Even if the new GH was as close to the old one as possible, I think most of the GH PvPers will still reject it. So why should ZOS put more money into fixing GH at this point?

I understand the reasons players don't like Vengeance, I really do. It absolutely isn't a satisfactory conclusion to the testing that was done. BUT I've never seen a game where devs put in this kind of effort to understand PvP problems and test on this scale. To see such a petulant response from players is just frustrating. Vengeance is now "PvErs and players who can't PvP" from what I've heard lol.

Every time zos has fixed the performance issues, they have simply used the method of cutting the player population cap down. GH as we know it is going to be changed to vengeance only and the live pvp is going to be forced into the new one keep campaign we saw on the livestream. I highly doubt they are going to leave an instance of cyrodil open for live pvp when they can push their new gamemode which allows them to cut down the population again instead of fixing the game design issues causing lag.

We knew this was the case the second they announced class reworks and the new mini campaign before completing the vengeance testing. The first and second test proved very well that cyrodil could host 900 player campaigns again if they reworked pvp skills and sets in a more streamlined way. However zos does not want to trim the fat for the sake of only pvp. So if they are going to keep the fat and balloon it more in the future the only course of action left is to reduce the PvP player cap again. Considering it has been 12 years without any sizeable adjustments they are atleast going to give us a new map better tailored for the new pvp population cap.

---

If they were smart, they could potentially create a solution to the lag while still hosting more largescale campaigns. Instead of one massive map on one server. It may be possible for zos to host single keep servers that all connect to each other like a mesh network. This way they could distribute the performance across multiple servers. However one massive keep fight would probably create a singularity event if they do not design keep seige properly and resort it back to the current PvDoor everyone spam aoe on the ram concept we play now.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I know that the devs announced some time ago that they couldn't 'fix' Grey Host but that doesn't mean that they couldn't keep making adjustments to sets for PvP.
There was another announcement for a smaller PvP zone that would allow large scale fights.
So far we've heard nothing on those accounts.

ZOS told us for a decade they were working on improving performance in normal live Cyrodiil.

So were they really working on it or just saying they were?

We know now that vengeance was never a test even though that's what we were told since it's inception.

I see an undeniable trend with ZOS' statements.

They have no plans to try anything related to Cyro as we know it. They implemented system after system and skills/sets that their server couldn’t handle, and instead of eating crow and walking certain problematic introductions back, they are giving up. They’ve said they can’t “fix” it, but what they really mean is they don’t intend to “try” cause that would be an admission of fault.

I fully understand the performance issues... hardware limitations... lag from skills/sets.. I fully get that.

ZoS has put a TON of effort behind trying to solve this issue (you can argue alot here and nit pick but we are were we are and bringing up the past doesn't help anyone).. but lag is an issue and will be an issue for here on out.

What I would LOVE to see is a mindset similar to this moving forward:

"We understand that not everyone enjoys the trimmed down PvP that veng provides but realisticly we can't remove 100% of lag from Grayhost during prime time. In an effort to revamp/make Grayhost feel like a new and exciting experience we are going to do the following

- New and interesting siege weapons
- Brining back destructale towers
- Giving DC the chance to FINALLY have their own bridge fights
- Small tweaks to keeps (layours, furniture, landscape)
- and more to come"

Grayhost has been the same for soooooo long now. While the studiop is scaling down I understand that a full map rework is out of the question but I hope they still have the resources to add new things.

Exmaple:

Imagine if they added a new siege mechanic that was a ladder. You could go up to a keep and put a ladder up. It takes x about of time to setup and x amount of time to climb. Make it so oils can be poured on them as people climb up or make some other type of counter siege.

- Yes I am aware there are things that have to be thought out about this... how do you keep people from just bypassing all of the keep walls and flipping flags etc - hence the... small keep rework comment.

Another example could be maybe a different ram version that is a trojan hourse. People can get inside the horse and it can ram the front door. They don't take dmg from oils while in it but it would be slower to take down a door than a typical ram and have a much longer setup time.

Just throwing some ideas out there... there are a ton of ways to make cyrodiil interesting again without adding new skills/sets/hammer that have a big impact on performance.

I'd love to see Zos giving the devs some room to experiement... put some ideas on ptr.. and see what happens.

Also, I'd love it if DC finally had our own bridge so we could have a bridge fight. Those fights are some of the most fun I've ever had in a pvp game and I hate that DC only gets a good bridge fight 1 or two times a year.

Anyways, ZoS has been cooking lately... let the devs keep cooking please! I'm seeing a ton of old faces come back to the game and it's awesome to see.

Remember when people called you out for saying Vengeance was "just a test".....crazy....

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Idk about you guys, but I don't see a third option.

Legacy mode: Whoever continues to play on GH will just have to accept whatever changes spill over from PvE and small scale PvP and not expect any resources being spent on fixing any adverse impacts on large scale PvP. Arguably, not much changes then, except for ZOS no longer making promises they can't keep.

I got over ZOS lying to the players when they said "it's just a test" and so I directly went on to other games after playing ESO for years.

They can keep there vengeance and their one keep campaign to themselves.

ESO isn't the only game on the market.

Checked on the forum the first time in a while this weekend to see what's going in.

They said Vengeance was just a test to see where the lags come from to actually fix classic Cyrodiil. By starting small with just linear easy class skills, then add more and more to see when the lags begin.
They lied. They now use it as a new mode instead of using the data to fix Cyrodiil PvP.
I don‘t think that the promised fixes will come.

Hello

Well this is my first post on the forum.

I don't know if ZOS abandonned GreyHost, but what is certain is that it seems they have abandoned Ravenwatch.
From what I understood, this campaign will be replaced by "vengeance".

Consider yourself lucky that GreyHost is not suffering the same fate

Muizer wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I got over ZOS lying to the players when they said "it's just a test"

If you think ZOS lied, you're evidently still in the 'anger' stage of grief, following the denial that is interpreting Vengeance as 'something disposable made in service of researching ways to fix current Cyrodiil' .

Reality is ZOS were quite clear that 'just a test' referred to putting something live (Vengeance1) that wasn't a fully developed feature .......... yet.

Your opinion truly matters to me /s

Not in anger. I moved on after the second vengeance and when the population on Xbox EU dropped hard.

Just checked on the forums the first time in ages ✌🏻

once they started nurfing/ buffing sets and skills based off PVE they abandoned what was PVP by not using the system that they had in place to balance PVP / PVE by themselves , YEP THAT SYSTEM CALLED BATTLE SPIRIT THATS BEEN FORGOTTEN ABOUT FOR OF YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ZOS has publicly stated they are abandoning Grey Host. (here's hoping they change their minds)

ZOS still hasn't even tried limiting heal and shield stacking yet.

Alaztor91 wrote: »

So, Vengeance is now becoming a permanent mode which allows for 3 times the player population caps of current Gray Host(since the other Campaigns are being removed). This would be the ''higher population'' option.

Then we have this new ''small/medium sized Cyrodiil'' that they are also developing. This would be the option with ''no changes to their characters''.

Idk about you guys, but I don't see a third option.

Yeah I really don't understand how this has been ZoS's conclusion. I do understand that not changing anything about how GH works gameplay-wise will not allow them to improve performance is increase the player cap, but why are the only two options 1) to keep GH exactly the same or 2) to remove practically every character build option in the game to produce Vengeance? There's an entire world of options between those two. Why are none of those being considered?