I Owe You All an Apology....

Athory · April 12

Ok, I owe you all an apology.

Context:

I used to struggle with 2bar builds before Oakensoul. When ZOS gave us this mythic, my life changed, my love for the game changed, and everything felt better. As some of you may know, I’ve always defended Oakensoul players because I know how good that item used to be.

But:

I switched from Oakensoul to Arcanist, and since then I’ve mostly played with 2bars, with or without Rakkhat’s. The truth is, I never went back to Oakensoul, not for any specific reason, but simply because I moved forward.

Until today…

Today I joined vRG with my worst build (Oakensoul), and I already knew it before we even started—I even said it in chat.

So why do I owe you all an apology?
Because Oakensoul… oh boy… it’s bad. Really, really bad. This is NOT the Oakensoul I remember—not even close. I don’t know if it got nerfed again or when the last nerf happened, but ZOS… congrats, you really destroyed this item. lol
This thing feels completely useless now. My god, ZOS… why did you do this…?

I Owe You All an Apology, You Were Right About Oakensoul - @Zaan's

Vaqual · April 12

Aren't you the person who is also promoting the one-bar/HA exclusive guild on PC-EU? Feels like there is more to this than just an apology...

LunaFlora · April 12

what exactly are you referring to?

The only change Oakensoul ever got was in update 35, the very next update after its release.
And it is part of a build, not the entire build nor a Class.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615315/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-5-lost-depths-dlc-update-35

Oakensoul: This set now grants the Minor versions of Courage, Berserk, Force, Protection, and Heroism, rather than the Major versions. This set now also grants Minor Mending, Slayer, and Aegis, as well as Empower.
Known Issue: The Empower buff will currently fall off after your character dies. The set must be re-equipped after death to get the bonus back.

Developer Comment:
The original intent of this set was to improve accessibility of one bar builds by providing many bonuses that you would get from running extra abilities on your back bar, and a few other named sources that may come from coordinated groups to help make up for the flexibility and specialization loss of having 5 ability choices instead of 10. While we did see the suggestions we’re incorporating now, we didn’t want to go too hard on the set after the heavy nerfs to the original form without some more concrete metrics and evidence, which we have gathered since Update 34 had launched.
We now feel comfortable that the set will still be incredibly impactful for its target audience but in a much more balanced way. It may end up even stronger on some builds now, depending on your focus!

Necrotech_Master · April 12

i dont think they have changed oakensoul in a long while, at least since the lost depths update

they have however changed other things that affect oakensoul builds:

storm master set nerf: makes it much harder to maintain that dmg bonus, its almost better to just swap to another entirely different set now
loss of cleave from trifocus: due to only getting the final tick dealing aoe, the overall aoe dmg of a HA build has dropped about 50% (single target is still the same though)

i think HA build still can work, but the old builds cannot work the same for them, in addition subclassing can also help provide additional dmg or buffs (such as merciless from the NB tree for extra burst dmg since you build stacks with HA super fast)

Orbital78 · April 12

Sorcs lost their stat buffs on bound aegis/armaments awhile ago too. Power has been getting whittled away over the years. Traditional builds have steadily increased in power leaving the play style behind. At least as far as heavy attacks go.

valenwood_vegan · April 12

Yup there have been various little nerfs or changes that have chipped away at it. Particularly if one is using an older oakensoul HA build that hasn't been updated. (Another example is the unique damage bonus being removed from grim focus and being replaced with major proph / savagery, which oakensoul is already providing).

davidtk · April 13

HA builds still work, but don't confuse all of them with the Oakensoul build—or rather, the old Oakensoul HA build.

Btw Storm master was replaced by orders wrath after that patch.
Then you have Tide-born now and more

Oakensoul build with subclassing works, you can still benefit from minor buffs from oaken but it is not for vet trials.

Btw I have subclassed necro with oaken for lazy Infinite archive. I know that I can have better build but I am lazy

Tannus15 · April 13

This is pretty much how it works with ESO at end game.

After a while you learn more things and your level of acceptable goes up and then you realise what you previously thought of as ok no longer cuts the mustard.

Oakensoul has always been ok at best. It "lost" a few things, like bound armaments passive 8% max mag, but since you can subclass dark magic for something like aedric spear, it's stronger than it used to be overall.

For people who like it, more power to you, play the game the way you enjoy most. Once you feel more comfortable with dungeons or trials or whatever it is you're doing and you want to improve, do what @Athory did and try something better.

Just be aware that there is a higher ceiling with other builds, and that's why for harder content you're going to start running into some walls. It's not people being toxic, it's people being aware that there is a limit to the performance of an Oakensoul build even if played perfectly.

Athory · April 13

Vaqual wrote: »

Aren't you the person who is also promoting the one-bar/HA exclusive guild on PC-EU? Feels like there is more to this than just an apology...

I was, and in fact we did some runs, all of them successful, and never fail or disband any. The only problem was with players who joined just to troll, but that’s nothing I couldn’t handle with a kick and a replacement.

But no, there’s nothing more to it than that. I just realized how broken Oakensoul is now, unless, yes, there is one "unless": players have enough experience with the game.

I always thought Oakensoul was released to help players learn mechanics and get into the game. At this point, it’s completely useless for both new and veteran players, Oakensoul is completely useless.
And yes, no more exclusive runs, and I’m "disbanding" the guild. There’s no point in keeping it going. New players are kind of “useless” if they use Oakensoul or 2bars, and experienced players aren’t interested in an "exclusive guild for 1bar" builds.
I just tried to create something until I realized how wrong I was.

Anyway, there’s no point in arguing about something where you’ll be right and I was completely wrong.

OsUfi · April 13

Oakensoul isn't useless, it's just a tool. If you're using a build that doesn't benefit from it, then it will be useless to you.

The main problem around Oakensoul has been simultaneously the Oaken-hypers who can't see it's faults, and the oaken-haters who scream its useless to anyone using it. In between there's a considerable group of people who benefit from it.

Fwiw, I still use it everywhere as I'm happy with what it provides while acknowledging it's not the best tool for my job. I just like not thinking about maintaining buffs.

Yudo · April 13

You wrote "I switched from Oakensoul to Arcanist", until played again with your worst build (Oakensoul). I am going to assume it has little to do with Oaken but more with Arca OP if I understood correctly.

KapiteinBoterham · April 13

It's ok man, I forgive you

twisttop138 · April 13

Athory wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Aren't you the person who is also promoting the one-bar/HA exclusive guild on PC-EU? Feels like there is more to this than just an apology...

I was, and in fact we did some runs, all of them successful, and never fail or disband any. The only problem was with players who joined just to troll, but that’s nothing I couldn’t handle with a kick and a replacement.

But no, there’s nothing more to it than that. I just realized how broken Oakensoul is now, unless, yes, there is one "unless": players have enough experience with the game.

I always thought Oakensoul was released to help players learn mechanics and get into the game. At this point, it’s completely useless for both new and veteran players, Oakensoul is completely useless.
And yes, no more exclusive runs, and I’m "disbanding" the guild. There’s no point in keeping it going. New players are kind of “useless” if they use Oakensoul or 2bars, and experienced players aren’t interested in an "exclusive guild for 1bar" builds.
I just tried to create something until I realized how wrong I was.

Anyway, there’s no point in arguing about something where you’ll be right and I was completely wrong.

Regardless of the power of oakensoul, having a guild dedicated to helping players learn trials is a worthy thing. Those new players can be helped to understand that even if they wanna do 1 bar, there are much better ways. There's 1 thing I can tell you about trials. The community loses players. If we are not replacing those players with new people excited to learn trials, then the number will dwindle to zero.

Renato90085 · April 13

But why.?

Athory · April 13

twisttop138 wrote: »

Athory wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Aren't you the person who is also promoting the one-bar/HA exclusive guild on PC-EU? Feels like there is more to this than just an apology...

I was, and in fact we did some runs, all of them successful, and never fail or disband any. The only problem was with players who joined just to troll, but that’s nothing I couldn’t handle with a kick and a replacement.

But no, there’s nothing more to it than that. I just realized how broken Oakensoul is now, unless, yes, there is one "unless": players have enough experience with the game.

I always thought Oakensoul was released to help players learn mechanics and get into the game. At this point, it’s completely useless for both new and veteran players, Oakensoul is completely useless.
And yes, no more exclusive runs, and I’m "disbanding" the guild. There’s no point in keeping it going. New players are kind of “useless” if they use Oakensoul or 2bars, and experienced players aren’t interested in an "exclusive guild for 1bar" builds.
I just tried to create something until I realized how wrong I was.

Anyway, there’s no point in arguing about something where you’ll be right and I was completely wrong.

Regardless of the power of oakensoul, having a guild dedicated to helping players learn trials is a worthy thing. Those new players can be helped to understand that even if they wanna do 1 bar, there are much better ways. There's 1 thing I can tell you about trials. The community loses players. If we are not replacing those players with new people excited to learn trials, then the number will dwindle to zero.

I really understand your point, I truly do. But my initial idea was to create a place where all these types of players (Oakensoul / Rakkhat 1bar players, etc.) could come together in one space, so they can play together without the gatekeeping they often face. This guild was never meant to be a “training guild.”
I don’t want to argue too much about this, but to be honest, this is my final conclusion: if ZOS doesn’t care about these players or the reasons why they rely on this playstyle and completely ruin what was once the best item for new players, then why should I?

At first, I really believed Oakensoul was still the ring I knew… but it’s not. It useless now.

And yes, even I refuse to play with them in any veteran trial. I mean, I don’t mind if they join, but I won’t encourage anyone to use Oakensoul. No, it’s 100% wrong, and that’s why we’re back at the start of this discussion...

jaws343 · April 13

Oakensoul has had the same power output for the last few years. Very easy to get a viable ~110K or so DPS out of it.

I have two sorc setups that do just that and they steamroll most content, as they always have.

Orbital78 · April 13

jaws343 wrote: »

Oakensoul has had the same power output for the last few years. Very easy to get a viable ~110K or so DPS out of it.

I have two sorc setups that do just that and they steamroll most content, as they always have.

What build are you using to get that? I was only getting around 85-90k, which is okay for most content. I could get a little higher with non-Oakensoul, but not with. With the subclassing release I was still only able to hit 110k even with my Arcanist, which is much more powerful. Mid tier dps I know but I have been playing MMO's since Ultima Online and the MUD/Door game era.

ADarklore · April 13

I've said it before... Oakensoul needs a buff to compete with all the changes that have come out. With subclassing and soon class mastery, Oakensoul users have been at an increasing disadvantage and really needs to be looked at. IMO, they should bring back the ORIGINAL Oakensoul before the nerf.

wolfie1.0. · April 13

To me Oakensoul is a low cost build. It allows me to save on transmutes and skill points. But gives a character enough power to do a decent amount of content. I wont take a character like that into vet trials or pvp under normal circumstances. But I can get vet dungeons and such with it.

Orbital78 · April 13

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

To me Oakensoul is a low cost build. It allows me to save on transmutes and skill points. But gives a character enough power to do a decent amount of content. I wont take a character like that into vet trials or pvp under normal circumstances. But I can get vet dungeons and such with it.

One of the things I liked about it, was that it is versatile, it is a weapon line, so any class can use it some what. Sorc synergized best, but even my healers I could do a hybrid build if the group dps were inexperienced or for soloing delve skyshards and such.

Soarora · April 13

Glad you can see why it’s so frustrating when people swear by oakensoul now. It brings me hope that people can change their minds. Oakensoul is a product of its time, I consider it the 1.0 of the accessibility builds (though before oakensoul, we had templar in that role).

Then we got arcanist, which introduces the concept of 2 bars (needed to be an endgame tank/healer due to all the debuffs/buffs/utility you need to have + very beneficial for DPS to have the backbar) with survivability (without having tank & healer buffs like oakensoul, which dps should not self supply except in pvp & solo content so oakensoul may be misleading), and a slow rotation.

Then we got Rakkhat, introducing HA build 3.0 which imo is much more balanced than 2.0 with Oakensoul (there’s skill in sourcing empower + no infinite sustain + introduces the concept of using the back bar for utility (skills that don’t get used, maybe even could put your ult back there and have a bar buffer frontbar ult, room for streak if you have storm calling, etc…) instead of using it for nothing).

Then we got DK’s flame breath channel, showing us that ZOS is committing to each class having a viable slower rotation/easier build.

This diverges the groups of people into imo healthier builds that can lead into having the skills for a faster rotation build or can just be used as they are. Oakensoul just looks overwhelmingly good because of all the buffs it gives but when you really look at the buffs, it just is not worth it as a catch-all mythic, especially as we get skills that buff by being slotted on either bar (even if you don’t want to barswap ever, it is an option to try… putting bar buffers on the backbar and unbinding bar swap. If you want to use a different mythic or have that ring spot for something else, that is).

Athory · April 13

Soarora wrote: »

Glad you can see why it’s so frustrating when people swear by oakensoul now. It brings me hope that people can change their minds. Oakensoul is a product of its time, I consider it the 1.0 of the accessibility builds (though before oakensoul, we had templar in that role).

Then we got arcanist, which introduces the concept of 2 bars (needed to be an endgame tank/healer due to all the debuffs/buffs/utility you need to have + very beneficial for DPS to have the backbar) with survivability (without having tank & healer buffs like oakensoul, which dps should not self supply except in pvp & solo content so oakensoul may be misleading), and a slow rotation.

Then we got Rakkhat, introducing HA build 3.0 which imo is much more balanced than 2.0 with Oakensoul (there’s skill in sourcing empower + no infinite sustain + introduces the concept of using the back bar for utility (skills that don’t get used, maybe even could put your ult back there and have a bar buffer frontbar ult, room for streak if you have storm calling, etc…) instead of using it for nothing).

Then we got DK’s flame breath channel, showing us that ZOS is committing to each class having a viable slower rotation/easier build.

This diverges the groups of people into imo healthier builds that can lead into having the skills for a faster rotation build or can just be used as they are. Oakensoul just looks overwhelmingly good because of all the buffs it gives but when you really look at the buffs, it just is not worth it as a catch-all mythic, especially as we get skills that buff by being slotted on either bar (even if you don’t want to barswap ever, it is an option to try… putting bar buffers on the backbar and unbinding bar swap. If you want to use a different mythic or have that ring spot for something else, that is).

Oh yes, you're one of those this topic is for and for whom my apologies go. You were right all along… Well… yeah, sorry!

LunaFlora · April 13

i still am confused what changes to Oakensoul you are referring to and why you are apologising

Athory · April 13

LunaFlora wrote: »

i still am confused what changes to Oakensoul you are referring to and why you are apologising

Well, there’s no simple way to explain what I mean. Only those of you who know what Oakensoul really was and what HA was when Oakensoul was truly Oakensoul, will understand.
This topic, and my apologies, are directed at very specific players: the ones who understand what Oakensoul was and what it is now. I simply don’t want to argue much about all of this, but some players will understand me.

BretonMage · April 13

All this reminds me of the people saying that they dislike chapters because the last couple of chapters were boring.

But... what if it was good again?

I do like using Oakensoul for soloing, it gives me a little bit more tankiness, more resource regen, and flexibility to go HA or not. Would love to see it brought up to date.

twisttop138 · April 13

LunaFlora wrote: »

i still am confused what changes to Oakensoul you are referring to and why you are apologising

It's a callback to a previous discussion we had with the Op about oakensoul and 1 bar builds, their combat effectiveness in veteran and hard mode content and why some like and dislike. The op has realized that what he thought might be a bit untrue and was sending a mea maxima culpa to those he argued with. The conversation got contentious at times and I applaud the op for being able to stand up and say they were mistaken.

Edit spelling

OsUfi · April 13

twisttop138 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

i still am confused what changes to Oakensoul you are referring to and why you are apologising

It's a callback to a previous discussion we had with the Op about oakensoul and 1 bar builds, their combat effectiveness in veteran and hard mode content and why some like and dislike. The op has realized that what he thought might be a bit untrue and was sending a mea maxima culpa to those he argued with. The conversation got contentious at times and I applaud the op for being able to stand up and say they were mistaken.

He may have been mistaken, but now he's gone so far the other way and is calling an item useless when it has some uses. Just not the ones he thought.

QB1 · April 14

Have made multiple posts in the past but Oakensoul needs to be reverted back to its original state

coop500 · April 14

Still using Oakensoul because I care about thematic builds, and this is the easiest and most flexible way to have a thematic, character focused build that isn't doing 20K DPS

HatchetHaro · April 14

The insincerity on display here is astounding.

ADarklore · April 14

Soarora wrote: »

Glad you can see why it’s so frustrating when people swear by oakensoul now. It brings me hope that people can change their minds. Oakensoul is a product of its time, I consider it the 1.0 of the accessibility builds (though before oakensoul, we had templar in that role).

Then we got arcanist, which introduces the concept of 2 bars (needed to be an endgame tank/healer due to all the debuffs/buffs/utility you need to have + very beneficial for DPS to have the backbar) with survivability (without having tank & healer buffs like oakensoul, which dps should not self supply except in pvp & solo content so oakensoul may be misleading), and a slow rotation.

Then we got Rakkhat, introducing HA build 3.0 which imo is much more balanced than 2.0 with Oakensoul (there’s skill in sourcing empower + no infinite sustain + introduces the concept of using the back bar for utility (skills that don’t get used, maybe even could put your ult back there and have a bar buffer frontbar ult, room for streak if you have storm calling, etc…) instead of using it for nothing).

Then we got DK’s flame breath channel, showing us that ZOS is committing to each class having a viable slower rotation/easier build.

This diverges the groups of people into imo healthier builds that can lead into having the skills for a faster rotation build or can just be used as they are. Oakensoul just looks overwhelmingly good because of all the buffs it gives but when you really look at the buffs, it just is not worth it as a catch-all mythic, especially as we get skills that buff by being slotted on either bar (even if you don’t want to barswap ever, it is an option to try… putting bar buffers on the backbar and unbinding bar swap. If you want to use a different mythic or have that ring spot for something else, that is).

See, the bolded is the problem. Because they need to make ALL buff skills accessible from either bar, since as of right now, they are very inconsistent. Why should this class here have a 'on either bar' buff while that class there, does not? I think both Fighters and Mages guild buff skills should be made 'on either bar'.

For years I've played with Oakensoul, and when I returned to ESO recently, I went back to using it. But then I started experimenting with Pale Order instead and have started getting used to bar-swapping again- especially for harder fights. It hasn't been so bad, and it's nice to have extra abilities for that 'just in case' moment.