I need the help of the most powerful Necromancers

HarfnUA · April 6

This is exclusively about PvP.
I decided to start playing as a Necromancer (pure). I used to play a pure DK before patch 49. Sometimes I still play as a DK. But because there are so many DKs now, it has become uninteresting to me. I created a character in the guild I belong to for the Aldmeri Dominion. I enjoy playing while sticking to style and theme, so I play pure classes. I want to say right away, I fully understand that the Necromancer is not for everyone* and that right now a pure Necromancer is the most difficult and the weakest class in the game (I was also told that the Necromancer is weak in PvE). But my level of play allows me to compete against strong players. I was creating a build following the necromancer theme. Therefore, I created a tank build, as the developers guide us to do, and tried to use as many necromancer skills as possible.
Here is my current build:
Race: High Elf (You will understand later why not Khajiit)
Curse: Vampire (Stage 3)
Mundus: Shadow
Armour setup: 5H 1M 1L
Front bar: Diamond's Victory (for extra DMG (Blighted Blastbones triggers damage for melee attacks, Wrecking Blow and Executioner triggers damage for range attacks))
Back bar: Wretched Vitality (for sutain)
Chestpiece: Cuirass of the trainee (Trait: Reinforced)
Monster set: Kjalnar's Nightmare
Mythic: Monomyth Reforged
Armour traits and enchantments: 3 Resilience, 3 Impenetrable, and all pieces with Glyph of Prismatic Defence
Jewellery traits and enchantments: 3 Infused, 2 Multi-effect enchantments (+ spell and weapon damage and some Stamina regen) and 1 Bracing enchantment
Weapon traits and enchantments (Front bar): (Two-handed Axe) Nirnhoned and Charged
Weapon traits and enchantments (Back bar): (One-handed Sword) Nirnhoned and Sharpened, (Shield) Resilient and Glyph of Prismatic Defence
Front bar abilities: 1. Blighted Blastbones, 2. Wrecking Blow, 3. Executioner, 4. Ulfsild's Contingency (Knockback, Gladiator's Tenacity, Savagery and Prophecy (I tried Force, but crits help with healing and putting pressure on opponents.)), 5. Skeletal Archer, Ultimate: Onslaught.

Back bar abilities: 1. Necrotic Potency, 2. Mortal Coil, 3. Resistant Flesh (helps reach 33,1k armour cap), 4. Spirit Guardian, 5. Summoner's Armour, Ultimate: Temporal Guard (for 5% damage reduction buff).

Total damage reduction from abilities, Mythic and Vampire passive is 34-48%.
My rotation: 3LA + Blighted Blastbones (with skip the animation of the last LA) + 1LA + Ulfsild's Contingency (with skip the animation of the last LA) + 1LA + Wrecking Blow (with skip the animation of the last LA) + Interrupting Strike (with skip the animation of Crushing Strike) + Ultimate: Onslaught + triggering the monster set skill (due to diminishing CC returns after the stun from Ulfsild's Contingency (knockback) it deals damage). And then spam LA + Executioner.
Food: Bewitched sugars skulls
Potions: Tri-restoration potion and Essence of immovability (somtime)

Some pics:

Front bar stats:

Back bar stats:

Equip

I've been playing for 5 days. While playing 4v4 BG at low MMR, there were no problems. Almost all the games looked like this:

But upon reaching a high MMR (there are always players in the lobby I know), problems began. I feel great when teams are evenly matched, but problems start when my team is weaker.

I will upgrade my gear soon (almost everything is epic except for the weapons). What else am I missing? Or is this the limit for a pure and thematic necro build?

CameraBeardThePirate · April 6

The first thing I would do is drop Red Diamond for a different set. Order's Wrath, Acuity, Oakfather's, Gorethief, Rallying Cry, or Plaguebreak (lots of pressure, the tooltip is misleading as it procs disease every tick) would all be much better options. The problem with Red Diamond is that it does not apply to everything you are doing; there are quite a few instances of damage that will not be buffed by either of the Red Diamond buffs. It also does not affect your healing at all, while something like Order's Wrath or Rally Cry will.

I don't love Kjalnar's on melee builds, but if it's working for you then great! I would still maybe try out something different. Sometimes a defensive monster set like Bloodspawn ends up giving you MORE offense because you aren't rotating through your heals as often.

A small tweak you should 100% make is moving a Living Death ability (probably Ghost) to your front bar. You should always have a Living Death ability on both bars to give your HoTs a better crit rate, as the Living Death crit passive only activates if an ability is on your active bar.

I would also consider dropping the Heal Tether OR Necrotic Potency for Hexproof. Hexproof is, IMO, one of the biggest things that allows a Pure Necro to compete at the moment. It's easily the most powerful self purge in the game.

Another option is to lean into your team more by swapping to Intensive Mender instead of Guardian. Intensive Mender can easily output about 800k healing or more during an 8v8 Battleground; it just doesn't show up on the scoreboard because it's a pet. It allows you to hang with your team and keep them alive, but it requires a much more intensive (heh) rotation since you have to cast it every 8 seconds.

Lastly, your sustain numbers look a little iffy, even considering that the numbers are before Wretched procs. If you don't feel like you're running out of sustain at all, then no need to change anything, but you could consider running Jewels of Misrule/Orzorgas Bear Haunch for more recovery.

HarfnUA · April 6

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The first thing I would do is drop Red Diamond for a different set. Order's Wrath, Acuity, Oakfather's, Gorethief, Rallying Cry, or Plaguebreak (lots of pressure, the tooltip is misleading as it procs disease every tick) would all be much better options. The problem with Red Diamond is that it does not apply to everything you are doing; there are quite a few instances of damage that will not be buffed by either of the Red Diamond buffs. It also does not affect your healing at all, while something like Order's Wrath or Rally Cry will.

I will try different options. There is probably something better than Diamond's Victory Set.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I don't love Kjalnar's on melee builds, but if it's working for you then great! I would still maybe try out something different. Sometimes a defensive monster set like Bloodspawn ends up giving you MORE offense because you aren't rotating through your heals as often.

After 5 days of playing, I am already consistently able to complete my rotation with Kjalnar's. So I think over time I will be able to make it automatic. And most importantly, the animation of this set looks very necromantic. I tried Balrog with Flawless Dawnbreaker, but with that option, you need as many ultimate points as possible. Too passive for me. One mistake and you start accumulating ultimate points all over again.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A small tweak you should 100% make is moving a Living Death ability (probably Ghost) to your front bar. You should always have a Living Death ability on both bars to give your HoTs a better crit rate, as the Living Death crit passive only activates if an ability is on your active bar.

Totally agree. I will change the Skeletal Archer to a Spirit Guardian.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I would also consider dropping the Heal Tether OR Necrotic Potency for Hexproof. Hexproof is, IMO, one of the biggest things that allows a Pure Necro to compete at the moment. It's easily the most powerful self purge in the game.

I initially wanted to use Resolving Vigor, but in the end I decided to replace it with other necromancer healing abilities. Right now I have Mortal Coil, Spirit Guardian and Necrotic Potency. Necrotic Potency also helps to quickly build ultimate points. There are a lot of DKs putting a lot of pressure at the moment, and it's hard for me to give up healing abilities. But I will try to replace something with Hexproof.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Another option is to lean into your team more by swapping to Intensive Mender instead of Guardian. Intensive Mender can easily output about 800k healing or more during an 8v8 Battleground; it just doesn't show up on the scoreboard because it's a pet. It allows you to hang with your team and keep them alive, but it requires a much more intensive (heh) rotation since you have to cast it every 8 seconds.

I chose Spirit Guardian because of "While active 10% of the damage you take is transferred to the spirit instead."

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Lastly, your sustain numbers look a little iffy, even considering that the numbers are before Wretched procs. If you don't feel like you're running out of sustain at all, then no need to change anything, but you could consider running Jewels of Misrule/Orzorgas Bear Haunch for more recovery.

For the most part, I feel quite comfortable under pressure. Of course, there are moments when I'm attacked by four opponents at once, and then I have to survive. Or, for example, something like this happens:

I was killed here in one second... But that happens to everyone.

Thank you very much for your help.

Morvan · April 6

Running stage 3 vamp on DK patch might be painful.

HarfnUA · April 6

Morvan wrote: »

Running stage 3 vamp on DK patch might be painful.

The Necromancer class itself is painful to play. But the build is quite tanky and I don't feel it is a major problem. Also, at high MMR, there are many Death Knights who do nothing other than spam Whip. It's annoying but not fatal. Besides DK, many continue playing subclass meta builds. Sometimes you even encounter players using pure sorcerer builds.

nightbringer1993 · April 6

Ever since the blastbone nerf I stopped playing Necro in PvP. I felt forced into other class because blighted blastbone simply doesn’t do as much damage as stalking blastbone, especially that stalking blastbone was fire damage.
Necromancer feels like a scam since the last few years and I don’t understand why they placed it last on refresh order( excluding arcanist) another spit in the face of Necro players.

HarfnUA · April 6

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

Ever since the blastbone nerf I stopped playing Necro in PvP. I felt forced into other class because blighted blastbone simply doesn’t do as much damage as stalking blastbone, especially that stalking blastbone was fire damage.
Necromancer feels like a scam since the last few years and I don’t understand why they placed it last on refresh order( excluding arcanist) another spit in the face of Necro players.

I understand that. Compared to other classes, the necromancer has no abilities that deal damage (or rather, sufficient damage to pressure the opponent). I know that with the Blastbone nerf, the necromancer lost its only main damage skill. However, playing a necromancer in PvP requires a lot of effort. Any other class can achieve with 2-3 button presses what a necromancer manages by playing on a piano. Besides resource control, timing choices and offensive rotation, a necromancer also needs to control the generation of corpses and proper positioning (since the necromancer is tied to corpses). Additionally, the necromancer lacks control abilities (I mean abilities that guarantee control). Therefore, unlike other classes, necromancer builds based solely on class skills are unplayable. Any build that can somehow compete in PvP is based on weapon mastery lines, and the necromancer's mastery line skills can only supplement it. For the other classes, it is easy to build a setup based on class skills and slightly supplement it with skills from the weapon mastery line or the guild mastery lines. In my build, the core is based on the Two Handed Skill Line. The main damage comes from skip animations of Wrecking Blow, Onslaught, Kjalnar's and only Blighted Blastbones (as delayed damage, the timing of which is incredibly difficult to calculate). I also noticed the absence of proper class sets. I really don't understand what build they are intended for.The only thing I am relying on is my PvP experience and skill level. Although I can easily log in with my DK now and win most battlegrounds solo, or do the same on a subclass build. I am not going to give up and will continue playing as a Necromancer. But I am certain that if I had started playing as a Necromancer (As the first character) right after the nerf Blastbone, I would most likely have either switched class or quit ESO.

Urzigurumash · April 6

If you're going to use Vigor in BGs on a PureCro I'd use Echoing since you have Minor Resolve in Bone Armor and you have teammates. With Ghost and Resistant Flesh you really should be good on heals, a DK can nuke you from 100 to 0 between Vigor ticks anyhow.

If you drop Skeletal Archer for Ghost you need Brutality on Contingency, or drop it for Rally.

Adding Hexproof and dropping Vamp are generally really good ideas for a DK meta.

HarfnUA · April 6

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you're going to use Vigor in BGs on a PureCro I'd use Echoing since you have Minor Resolve in Bone Armor and you have teammates. With Ghost and Resistant Flesh you really should be good on heals, a DK can nuke you from 100 to 0 between Vigor ticks anyhow.

I am used to playing with instant healing and HOT healing. Therefore, I decided to replace my usual Vigor with a necro HOT healing.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you drop Skeletal Archer for Ghost you need Brutality on Contingency, or drop it for Rally.

I just swapped the skills between the front bar and the back bar (to get a bonus).

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Adding Hexproof and dropping Vamp are generally really good ideas for a DK meta.

I will try. But the thing is, the DKs don't really bother me (perhaps because my main class is DK). Of course, when there are 3-4 DKs on the opposing team it is a problem. But that isn't the case in every BG.

Blackrim · April 7

HarfnUA wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The first thing I would do is drop Red Diamond for a different set. Order's Wrath, Acuity, Oakfather's, Gorethief, Rallying Cry, or Plaguebreak (lots of pressure, the tooltip is misleading as it procs disease every tick) would all be much better options. The problem with Red Diamond is that it does not apply to everything you are doing; there are quite a few instances of damage that will not be buffed by either of the Red Diamond buffs. It also does not affect your healing at all, while something like Order's Wrath or Rally Cry will.

I will try different options. There is probably something better than Diamond's Victory Set.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I don't love Kjalnar's on melee builds, but if it's working for you then great! I would still maybe try out something different. Sometimes a defensive monster set like Bloodspawn ends up giving you MORE offense because you aren't rotating through your heals as often.

After 5 days of playing, I am already consistently able to complete my rotation with Kjalnar's. So I think over time I will be able to make it automatic. And most importantly, the animation of this set looks very necromantic. I tried Balrog with Flawless Dawnbreaker, but with that option, you need as many ultimate points as possible. Too passive for me. One mistake and you start accumulating ultimate points all over again.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A small tweak you should 100% make is moving a Living Death ability (probably Ghost) to your front bar. You should always have a Living Death ability on both bars to give your HoTs a better crit rate, as the Living Death crit passive only activates if an ability is on your active bar.

Totally agree. I will change the Skeletal Archer to a Spirit Guardian.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I would also consider dropping the Heal Tether OR Necrotic Potency for Hexproof. Hexproof is, IMO, one of the biggest things that allows a Pure Necro to compete at the moment. It's easily the most powerful self purge in the game.

I initially wanted to use Resolving Vigor, but in the end I decided to replace it with other necromancer healing abilities. Right now I have Mortal Coil, Spirit Guardian and Necrotic Potency. Necrotic Potency also helps to quickly build ultimate points. There are a lot of DKs putting a lot of pressure at the moment, and it's hard for me to give up healing abilities. But I will try to replace something with Hexproof.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Another option is to lean into your team more by swapping to Intensive Mender instead of Guardian. Intensive Mender can easily output about 800k healing or more during an 8v8 Battleground; it just doesn't show up on the scoreboard because it's a pet. It allows you to hang with your team and keep them alive, but it requires a much more intensive (heh) rotation since you have to cast it every 8 seconds.

I chose Spirit Guardian because of "While active 10% of the damage you take is transferred to the spirit instead."

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Lastly, your sustain numbers look a little iffy, even considering that the numbers are before Wretched procs. If you don't feel like you're running out of sustain at all, then no need to change anything, but you could consider running Jewels of Misrule/Orzorgas Bear Haunch for more recovery.

For the most part, I feel quite comfortable under pressure. Of course, there are moments when I'm attacked by four opponents at once, and then I have to survive. Or, for example, something like this happens:

I was killed here in one second... But that happens to everyone.

Thank you very much for your help.

Block molten whip, its telegraphable. If you train yourself to block quickly you're set.

HarfnUA · April 8

Blackrim wrote: »

Block molten whip, its telegraphable. If you train yourself to block quickly you're set.

I know how to use a block. At this moment I got stunned and died in less than a second. This could happen to anyone. DKs are of course strong after the update. But the main problem is when there are 3-4 of them in the same team. Right now the whip deals damage like most ultimates. And when 3-4 DKs focus me at the same time, it’s very painful.

HarfnUA · April 9

I played a bit of BG 4v4.

I tried different combinations of skills and gears. The best performance comes from the set 5M 1L 1T. The Oakfather's set. And I can confidently say that even trying hard, the necromancer is clearly a weak class. Perhaps I just don’t know how to play it. The win rate is clearly below 50%. Although I do much better with other classes. For example, on a pure DK in patch 48 my win rate was around 53-57%. The problem that exists across all classes with poor skill response (where you have to press the button 2-3 times for it to work) is especially felt on the necromancer because you have to press the buttons like on a piano.
Are there any ranged builds, perhaps? If someone knows a good build, I'm ready to try it. Although I'm very skeptical about ranged builds, since they work well only if the class has Streak or Invisibility. These builds essentially turn the character into a Glasscanon, which is evident in high MMR BGs. Ranged builds are used by Sorcs, NB or subclass builds there.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 9

HarfnUA wrote: »

I played a bit of BG 4v4.

I tried different combinations of skills and gears. The best performance comes from the set 5M 1L 1T. The Oakfather's set. And I can confidently say that even trying hard, the necromancer is clearly a weak class. Perhaps I just don’t know how to play it. The win rate is clearly below 50%. Although I do much better with other classes. For example, on a pure DK in patch 48 my win rate was around 53-57%. The problem that exists across all classes with poor skill response (where you have to press the button 2-3 times for it to work) is especially felt on the necromancer because you have to press the buttons like on a piano.
Are there any ranged builds, perhaps? If someone knows a good build, I'm ready to try it. Although I'm very skeptical about ranged builds, since they work well only if the class has Streak or Invisibility. These builds essentially turn the character into a Glasscanon, which is evident in high MMR BGs. Ranged builds are used by Sorcs, NB or subclass builds there.

Simple ranged build would be body Null Arca, backbar Wretched, Front bar Asylum Destro with monomyth. Use Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as your spammable. Blastbones into Force Pulse spam is very strong pressure, as Asylum Force Pulse with the Defile from Blastbones becomes incredibly difficult to heal through. Use double DoT poisons for max pressure.

If you want to go the stam route, you could front bar a null arca bow and sub in any monster set in place of Asylum staff. Combo is Blastbones>Snipe>Venom Skull (once you have stacks). Since Snipe is a cast time ability, the Snipe and Venom Skull land at the same time that Blastbones hits. With this set up you can run Roksa as your monster set and drop Wretched for Rally Cry instead. Could also keep Wretched and use Kjalnar as your monster set, trying to time your combo with the proc.

HarfnUA · April 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Simple ranged build would be body Null Arca, backbar Wretched, Front bar Asylum Destro with monomyth. Use Crushing Shock/Force Pulse as your spammable. Blastbones into Force Pulse spam is very strong pressure, as Asylum Force Pulse with the Defile from Blastbones becomes incredibly difficult to heal through. Use double DoT poisons for max pressure.

If you want to go the stam route, you could front bar a null arca bow and sub in any monster set in place of Asylum staff. Combo is Blastbones>Snipe>Venom Skull (once you have stacks). Since Snipe is a cast time ability, the Snipe and Venom Skull land at the same time that Blastbones hits. With this set up you can run Roksa as your monster set and drop Wretched for Rally Cry instead. Could also keep Wretched and use Kjalnar as your monster set, trying to time your combo with the proc.

Interesting idea. I will definitely try it. The only problem is my skills in PvE... I will need some time to assemble this build. I was also offered a build using Wrath of Elements and Essence Thief Set. True, this build is for duelling, but I might manage. I will try all the options. Although the necromancer is a very difficult and obviously weak class, I think there is still something to be gained from it. I would at least like a 50% win rate. That would already be very good.

HarfnUA · April 12

I have already tried many different sets and their combinations. I have tested all combinations of necromancer skills. I have spent quite a lot of time in BG 4v4.

Keep in mind that the necromancer has very low damage (at least in PvP). Therefore, third place on the leaderboard actually represents a huge number of games played. Even winning 15-0, I can only expect a maximum of 2000 rating points. Average damage per BG is 300-600k. Of course, this is enough for me to kill opponents. But I cannot create pressure on the entire enemy team. This results in a low win rate, as the necromancer heavily depends on their teammates and team setups. If I make a Glaskanon build, my survivability drops so much that I simply can't deal my damage (the necromancer has no Streak or Invis). When I have a healer or a tank on my team, it still works, but when the team is just DD, they are effectively fighting 3v4. To complete my rotation, I need remains, I need to wait for Blighted Blastbones to respawn and jump on the enemies. Unfortunately, sometimes during this time my teammates just die. I was even told several times to delete TESO and received a lot of other negative messages. Although when I played with other classes, I was never sent anything like that.
It seems to me that if a new player starts playing the necromancer in PvP, they will feel like they have been scammed for $12.99. Personally, I can't understand the developers' logic at all. I have already learned to use the necromancer's complex mechanics, but even when I manage to do everything (which requires a lot of effort), I hardly get anything in return. It's all very strange. I am used to the fact that completing complex game mechanics usually comes with some kind of reward (at least it does in most games). In the end, it feels like I'm not playing, but working. Only I'm not getting paid for it. I have already had a chance to talk to players whom I consider strong in PvP. They tell me that my efforts are in vain and that a pure necromancer is unplayable. It is only needed as a subclass for certain build options and even then only for one skill line.
I still need to try a build with Null Arca. Although I already doubt it will help. Has anyone looked into the Class Mastery passives that will be added in the next patch? Is there any point in continuing to improve gameplay as a necromancer? Honestly, I doubt they will revive this dead class, as all classes are getting the same boost.