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One Hand & shield and the bash dilemma.
Ok so ive seen a lot of ppl defending the bash damage, and i agree with you it deals to much damage.
here is the issue thou, have you seen the abilities in the 1hand and shield yet?
They are utterly garbage, especially for pve, since we have almost no way to get back stamina or magicka well compared to other classes/weapon lines.
This need to be adressed aswell, some sort of when blocking you gain stamina back % of damage mitigated by the block.
Shield bash should exist, however i would like to see it deal less damage in pvp.
Battlefield mobility should change so it removes 100% so we can block and run at the same time. and give a % of spellresist of the armor of the shield.
There is right now no spell resist in the one hand and shield line.
Absorb magick is almost never used by tank for the active, but just for the passive to have it in the bar against bosses and should become a passive instead becuse it forces maintanks for pve to waste a slot for this talent.
one hand and shield have no direct stamina aoe ability.
low lash should be swapped to bashsweep.
where you hit everything in a cone infront of you and reduces their physical resistance.
Morphs, one slows targets hit, other more pve centric wich increases the amount of damage blocked for next X seconds and cost of blocking for next seconds.
Right now the tanking is a bit sloppy and there is huge stamina issues, no im not talking about "i cant hold down mouse 2 and block the entire fight" im talking about using it while you need to use it and have perfect rotation you will go out of stamina even spamming potations.
There is a huge issue with tanks right now, tanks should i repeat should not be a deathwall in pve and pvp.
We should be a force to reckon with thou, but we should disrupt and poke down or pin down opponents for team8s to finish them of, and sure be able to win 1v1 with skillful plays.
But as for now we have one hand and shield as some sort of mix between damage and tanking, instead of disrupt and survivility.
So lower its damage, increase its sustain on stamina aswell as heavy armor should do(yes i now in lore/realistic wise it does not fit, but we play in a fantasyworld dont we?)
I am VR 2 almost 3 right now and ive played wow since vanilla up to wotlk before i quited and played EQ and other mmo:s i dont want this to be at all a wow clone or anything, but looking at all others resource management.
the tanks resource management is a godamn joke and need to be adressed aswell as the insane amount of damage out of bash.
Edited by lajnus86b16_ESO on 21 April 2014 15:47 here is the issue thou, have you seen the abilities in the 1hand and shield yet?
They are utterly garbage, especially for pve, since we have almost no way to get back stamina or magicka well compared to other classes/weapon lines.
This need to be adressed aswell, some sort of when blocking you gain stamina back % of damage mitigated by the block.
Shield bash should exist, however i would like to see it deal less damage in pvp.
Battlefield mobility should change so it removes 100% so we can block and run at the same time. and give a % of spellresist of the armor of the shield.
There is right now no spell resist in the one hand and shield line.
Absorb magick is almost never used by tank for the active, but just for the passive to have it in the bar against bosses and should become a passive instead becuse it forces maintanks for pve to waste a slot for this talent.
one hand and shield have no direct stamina aoe ability.
low lash should be swapped to bashsweep.
where you hit everything in a cone infront of you and reduces their physical resistance.
Morphs, one slows targets hit, other more pve centric wich increases the amount of damage blocked for next X seconds and cost of blocking for next seconds.
Right now the tanking is a bit sloppy and there is huge stamina issues, no im not talking about "i cant hold down mouse 2 and block the entire fight" im talking about using it while you need to use it and have perfect rotation you will go out of stamina even spamming potations.
There is a huge issue with tanks right now, tanks should i repeat should not be a deathwall in pve and pvp.
We should be a force to reckon with thou, but we should disrupt and poke down or pin down opponents for team8s to finish them of, and sure be able to win 1v1 with skillful plays.
But as for now we have one hand and shield as some sort of mix between damage and tanking, instead of disrupt and survivility.
So lower its damage, increase its sustain on stamina aswell as heavy armor should do(yes i now in lore/realistic wise it does not fit, but we play in a fantasyworld dont we?)
I am VR 2 almost 3 right now and ive played wow since vanilla up to wotlk before i quited and played EQ and other mmo:s i dont want this to be at all a wow clone or anything, but looking at all others resource management.
the tanks resource management is a godamn joke and need to be adressed aswell as the insane amount of damage out of bash.
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did you not read what i wrote?
i said we should be weak in damage, high on CC and mitigation
But build could change that depending on what spells you slot ofc but it does not fill the needs of some things.Edited by lajnus86b16_ESO on 21 April 2014 16:450 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There are no aoe taunts in the game, so tanks basically do have to be top dps in order to hold aggro.
Personally I'm one of those that dont think there's an issue with deadly bash. The issue lies in the reduced bash cost and increased bash damage -enchantments- which probably have a little too much effect when combined with the passive. If you dont have those enchantments, deadly bash is fine. Perhaps making it so the increased bash damage and reduced bash cost enchantments take effect after (before in the case of cost) the passive would be better - that way the passive isnt increasing your enchantments by 100% damage or an extra 50% cost reduction.
The main reason I dont think deadly bash is at all overpowered (enchantments aside) is because of how low the damage output and efficiency for every other ability in the 1h/shield tree is compared to the dual wield or two handed trees. The shield line isnt just meant for tanking - you can tank just fine with a 2hander or even dual wield in this game - so it should be a viable option to make a damage oriented build using the shield line.
1h/shield definitely needs to have spell resistance though, I agree there. It'd be nice if defensive posture gave a passive bonus to spell resistance equal to your shield's armor amount while slotted.
PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank1 -
No, you aren't meant to be top dps, nor do you need it. You are supposed to taunt the most threatening mobs and CC/slow/debuff down others and let your dps specs take out the weaker ones quickly. Taunts are for the toughest threat. You aren't supposed to aggro everything and hold it all so easily in this game.
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There are no aoe taunts in the game, so tanks basically do have to be top dps in order to hold aggro.
Personally I'm one of those that dont think there's an issue with deadly bash. The issue lies in the reduced bash cost and increased bash damage -enchantments- which probably have a little too much effect when combined with the passive. If you dont have those enchantments, deadly bash is fine. Perhaps making it so the increased bash damage and reduced bash cost enchantments take effect after (before in the case of cost) the passive would be better - that way the passive isnt increasing your enchantments by 100% damage or an extra 50% cost reduction.
The main reason I dont think deadly bash is at all overpowered (enchantments aside) is because of how low the damage output and efficiency for every other ability in the 1h/shield tree is compared to the dual wield or two handed trees. The shield line isnt just meant for tanking - you can tank just fine with a 2hander or even dual wield in this game - so it should be a viable option to make a damage oriented build using the shield line.
1h/shield definitely needs to have spell resistance though, I agree there. It'd be nice if defensive posture gave a passive bonus to spell resistance equal to your shield's armor amount while slotted.
There is no need for aoe taunts especially how mobs are designed in this game, they dont hit hard, its about dodging spells interupting, and aoeing/ccing them while tank soak up some of the mobs, taunting 1-4 mobs depending on gear how good dps is and what mobs there are.
also in raids there might be force to kite some mobs(24 man aint out yet)
I am glad aoe taunt dont exist they dumb down pve so much.
the problem right now is the cc/abilities and passives in 1hand and shield, they are utterly useless for a tank in most scenarios.
Being forced to have defensive stance/magic absorb, and never use it, is a godamn joke.
the stamina drain to self buff yourself, with stamina magicka, and block when you should block, is a joke.
The problem tanks right now have is not survivability its resource management, it should be opped to force tanks.
Right now tanking is to easy, its all about to slot the correct abilities, and block when you should block.
and not about rotations on offensive abilities becuse we got space for none(when i say offensive i mean offensive that deals damage and have a selfbuff.
all our selfbuffs are just for ourself more or less.
look at other mmo:s it can be a strike that gives you a shield for X seconds, or boss deals X less dmg for x second and such.
there is none of that for the tanks instead tnaks have knockdown, hardhitting abilities.
that goes against the nature of a tank in PVE content.
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Also blocking without taking damage SHOULD drain the stamina, it should not be about holding it down. it should be hold it down when its needed.
So im fine with nerf that drains 1% of stamina or 0.5% of stamina when holding it down.
this would also solve tankspecc in pvp to be op,
and also it should be a talent to bring holding it down so its more forgiving for tanks than for others to block when they feel like it.0 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Op needs to learn to play rather than gimping the only attack skill one hand and shield have.2 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Op needs to learn to play rather than gimping the only attack skill one hand and shield have.
very enlightful text you provided with, very informative, and very useful.0 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭Doesnt need to go into detail. All the detail you put out just makes you like like a whining bad player.1 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Op needs to learn to play rather than gimping the only attack skill one hand and shield have.
Well said. I am a pure tank. Got 1 weapon and shield quite high. Its very good for TANKING. A tank isnt a damage dealer....and aggro works on so many different levels then "just" damage and heal aggro.
Before you post a whine like this, play a bit more and learn more.
The shield bash ability MIGHT be a little to much. I do very little damage, BUT, I survive bosses and are able to do tanking in groups. Questing are hard for me but so what????? This is the tradeoff and choices you make.Oghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"0 -
I dont think both of you seem to understand what i am saying, what i am saying is in PVE tanking nothing is about doing any damage at all, its all about applying the taunt and keeping selfbuffs up, no rotation NOTHING.Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »Op needs to learn to play rather than gimping the only attack skill one hand and shield have.
Well said. I am a pure tank. Got 1 weapon and shield quite high. Its very good for TANKING. A tank isnt a damage dealer....and aggro works on so many different levels then "just" damage and heal aggro.
Before you post a whine like this, play a bit more and learn more.
The shield bash ability MIGHT be a little to much. I do very little damage, BUT, I survive bosses and are able to do tanking in groups. Questing are hard for me but so what????? This is the tradeoff and choices you make.
There is no brain into it, also 1hand and shield have nothing you should use beside the taunt right now, and slot an abilitiy you never use.
Survive bosses? ofc you survive bosses that aint the point, the problem for me is not that im tanking bosses the problem i have is how easy it is how stupid it is.
its no rotation to it, its all about concerve and use you block at proper timings, keeping selfbuff, nothing to debuff the buff or selfbuff yourself. or do any offensive things and keep them applied on boss and buffing yourself or the group.
basicly what any tank does right now is Razor armor,dragonblood taunt stonefist, and igneous shields and igneous weapons.
thats it. becuse u dont waste the stamina on anything becuse its not worth doing so.
i am both armor and magic softcapped not far from hardcapped on armor.
There is just no rotation this is what you fail to understand.
check every other mmo the tank does somthing for group/self. and does some part of the damage during the bossfight except standing there.
right now thats all the tank does stand there and dont have to hold any eye on anything compare it to a WoW tank or any mmo for that matter.
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭inhale for DK's is actually a fairly decent AOE taunt in dungeons
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭Imo a taunt is binary, you either get aggro or not. Otherwise it is a threat boost, aka dps. Good tip though, tanks need all the aoe they can get for an initial threat boost to outshine the healer at pulls.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.0 -
There are no aoe taunts in the game, so tanks basically do have to be top dps in order to hold aggro.
Personally I'm one of those that dont think there's an issue with deadly bash. The issue lies in the reduced bash cost and increased bash damage -enchantments- which probably have a little too much effect when combined with the passive. If you dont have those enchantments, deadly bash is fine. Perhaps making it so the increased bash damage and reduced bash cost enchantments take effect after (before in the case of cost) the passive would be better - that way the passive isnt increasing your enchantments by 100% damage or an extra 50% cost reduction.
The main reason I dont think deadly bash is at all overpowered (enchantments aside) is because of how low the damage output and efficiency for every other ability in the 1h/shield tree is compared to the dual wield or two handed trees. The shield line isnt just meant for tanking - you can tank just fine with a 2hander or even dual wield in this game - so it should be a viable option to make a damage oriented build using the shield line.
1h/shield definitely needs to have spell resistance though, I agree there. It'd be nice if defensive posture gave a passive bonus to spell resistance equal to your shield's armor amount while slotted.
I haven't any bash enchant and I do many more dmg with 1h+Shield (Shield bash all time) than dual wield spec. So, come on man, Shield Bash passive is too OP right now and I think the skill should do the same or less dmg than a light sword attack.
Shield Bash consume stamina and light attacks not, Right. But you are interrupting and blocking while use it.
Stop defend this ability, is ridiculous in all senses and it looks horrible...... A warrior killing people with his shield instead his sword. ARE YOU SERIOUS???.
Edited by arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO on 25 April 2014 08:35Debon Templar VR14 Thorn Blade (EU)
Gaunnes DK VR14 Haderus (EU)0 -
Xenrae✭✭It "looks horrible?" Seriously?
A lot of whining going on here. Play with sword and board, then have an opinion. As others have already stated, one-hand and shield have no other base attack skill. You swing with a sword, dagger, maul... we swing with a shield. Get over it. This skill is not OP in the least.0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have zero issue with shield bash the way it is. 1h/shield has no damaging skills at all aside from bash, and no aoe whatsoever, not to mention, bash damage isn't even that high compared to magicka skills. Its more than a light attack and less than a heavy attack.0 -
MoMoOG✭✭There are certain skills in the game that are going to get nerfed no matter how much people try to fight it. Its irrelevant if they are actually op or not. Only thing that matters is the mass perception that they are op. This happens in every mmo. shield bash (along with talons and bolt escape) will get nerfed for this reason.Edited by MoMoOG on 25 April 2014 18:381
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There are certain skills in the game that are going to get nerfed no matter how much people try to fight it. Its irrelevant if they are actually op or not. Only thing that matters is the mass perception that they are op. This happens in every mmo. shield bash (along with talons and bolt escape) will get nerfed for this reason.
I agree with you and im DK myself as i posted above, but there need to be changes, not "nerfs" that means 1hand and shield line need to be fixed(the skills)
becuse that is the issue, the tanking for dk is so staggnant atm
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Orchish✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanking players think they should be top DPS and top CC and top Migtigation
No we don't, but considering most mages/dps are basically tanks them selves in PvP we do need to be able to do some damage or we are utterly useless cannon fodder. That's the problem ESO has right now, they need to balance both PvE and PvP without one hurting the other.
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Zero_Tolerance✭✭✭This game's already Shield Bash Online. It's hard to remember last time I seen any class doing anything else but shield bashing, everywhere. Sometimes I do see a sorcerer without a shield, rarely...
Massive design flaw, and army of bashing noobs (vampire bashing noobs to be precise).
Those that can't hack 3 vet mobs with 2 casters+1 without bash.... If you can't, that content's not for you. You're just a noob who got there by abusing *** design flaw.
They should destroy the damage on bashing, make it deal 10 or so damage, not more. That's all, it'd sort out all the problems. Whiners using 1h+shield would cry that now they don't have any damage in the weapon line. Well, this line is for tanking, not dealing damage, it should always be the bottom of the DPS chart.0 -
makreth✭✭✭✭✭make it that only in front attacks are blockable , side and back attacks get through. Problem solved and it's more realistic that way. Can't get it why someone can block an attack coming from his back with a shield.. really?0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I dont know if it is Over powered or Melee DPS in general is so broken. Could possibly be , Dual wield and 2h is so damn broken it is incredibly imbalanced . i know that there are some serious DPS checks in VR dungeons and will only get worse. having everyone ranged is pretty damn lame. All dual wield builds are capping at about 600 DPS with out any movement. a SNS bashomatic can do 800 with out movement if you have the stam. Ranged can do about 700 with out movement ST. Burst means squat in boss fights when your end of fight report reads 350 as a melee. when we see hard 800 DPs checks in craglorn trials you wont see a melee spec for any end game , even the tank will likely kite . they need to fix the melee issue before anything . they are going the same route Rift did its first 5 months and it caused a massive exodus. But i 100% agree either bring the melee specs up or nerf the stupid shield bash its boring and quite embarassing for who ever desinged the melee skill lines.arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »There are no aoe taunts in the game, so tanks basically do have to be top dps in order to hold aggro.
Personally I'm one of those that dont think there's an issue with deadly bash. The issue lies in the reduced bash cost and increased bash damage -enchantments- which probably have a little too much effect when combined with the passive. If you dont have those enchantments, deadly bash is fine. Perhaps making it so the increased bash damage and reduced bash cost enchantments take effect after (before in the case of cost) the passive would be better - that way the passive isnt increasing your enchantments by 100% damage or an extra 50% cost reduction.
The main reason I dont think deadly bash is at all overpowered (enchantments aside) is because of how low the damage output and efficiency for every other ability in the 1h/shield tree is compared to the dual wield or two handed trees. The shield line isnt just meant for tanking - you can tank just fine with a 2hander or even dual wield in this game - so it should be a viable option to make a damage oriented build using the shield line.
1h/shield definitely needs to have spell resistance though, I agree there. It'd be nice if defensive posture gave a passive bonus to spell resistance equal to your shield's armor amount while slotted.
I haven't any bash enchant and I do many more dmg with 1h+Shield (Shield bash all time) than dual wield spec. So, come on man, Shield Bash passive is too OP right now and I think the skill should do the same or less dmg than a light sword attack.
Shield Bash consume stamina and light attacks not, Right. But you are interrupting and blocking while use it.
Stop defend this ability, is ridiculous in all senses and it looks horrible...... A warrior killing people with his shield instead his sword. ARE YOU SERIOUS???.
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Sleepydan✭✭✭There are certain skills in the game that are going to get nerfed no matter how much people try to fight it. Its irrelevant if they are actually op or not. Only thing that matters is the mass perception that they are op. This happens in every mmo. shield bash (along with talons and bolt escape) will get nerfed for this reason.
That's a very disappointing reality.
Essentially what your saying is that:
1) people (me!) get tired of "other" games and want to play something different.
2) people encounter a different paradigm in a different game regarding role function and power level.
3) people lose their minds and demand a more familiar system.
4) people (me again) get pissed that nobody can have nice things.
It's COOL that "tanks" can do damage. It makes them an actual threat, instead of using abilities to give them artificial threat. Tanky characters that do no damage are just sponges, to be ignored in pvp and killed last. That isn't a very compelling decision, it's a stupid trap.
Stacking all your enchants on one thing should make it very powerful, if only because of the opportunity cost. Stacking other things are also very powerful, given less transparent. Anybody go for 100% potion uptime yet? It's awesome. Pots as permanent buffs are strong. Not as obvious as the guy beating you to death with his shield.
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Jankstar✭✭✭The issue to me is a cosmetic one. This trationally held defensive item is doing a large amount of damage. If they buffed the other melee lines damage, or swapped the damage for the sword and shield the cosmetic problem of the shield bash doing better damage would be fixed. I love my shield and I will come home with it or on it, but I also love my sword and it thirsts for blood.. They could change the passive to lower the bash cost and Raise the sword damage, or even change the animation so you use the sword during the bash so that visual miscue of the shield waving back and forth would be gone.
What would be terrible is a cool down on the bash, cause some times you have to interrupt two casters , and that is the real power of the block. The cool down would nerf everybody who uses interrupts and that is not fun.0 -
Creslian7✭✭✭Bash should be about the interrupt, not the damage. It should deal low numbers, double digit numbers and if lucky over 100 damage on a crit. The line is about survivability not damage. The people who are defending it are abusing it. And it is not all about pvp, it is abused in pve as well, it is slowly making all other weapon lines obsolete as more and more people switch to 1h/s.
I posted this in a different thread but 1h/s is obviously broken, here are some examples:
Deep slash from stealth does almost as much damage as concealed weapon (within 30 points of damage) and more than ambush from stealth with a NB.
A 1h/s heavy attack from stealth will do more damage than a DW or Bow heavy attack from stealth.
Bash from stealth will do more damage than a DW or Bow heavy attack from stealth.( without jewelry)
Bash has the highest stamina to damage ratio in the game currently.
If kept in its current form it will ruin gameplay for both pve and pvp. Why would anyone use DW and do 350 dps when they can run 1h/s and do 500 dps as well as have better survivability?
While the line lacks a true aoe, your class abilites do not (unless you one of those useless nightblades). The fact is that you can use all of your magica abilities while hiding behind your shield.
Edited by Creslian7 on 17 May 2014 21:040 -
dsalter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭lajnus86b16_ESO wrote: »did you not read what i wrote? i said we should be weak in damage, high on CC and mitigation
But build could change that depending on what spells you slot ofc but it does not fill the needs of some things.
he was agreeing with you, i do to, tanks shouldnt be top damagers at allPLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread
EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.0
