Why the Millennial Writing?

AScarlato · February 24

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I'm just fine with some characters that are simply unapologetic as to who they are, and I find being called "good looking" rather tame. I think the NPCs are rather well behaved for this type of setting in that regards and everything overall is quite sanitary.
I have friends IRL who say "hey sexy" and it's just how they talk. It's just whatever, it's not an invitation to bed them.

Cultural differences, I guess. Where I live, people, or at least adults, don't talk like that. Groups of teenagers might address eachother like that jokingly (copying what they've seen in Hollywood movies or heard in pop songs), but not adults. And if some random guy would approach someone like that, it would be considered molestation.

AScarlato wrote: »

To me having to record entire storylines based on whether a player can handle a certain personality type probably willl have the long-term consequences of having really boring characters accompanying you, rather than them writing and paying for voice acting for the regular / "inoffensive" version of characters.

It's not about not being able to handle what some npc quacks, it's not about being "offensive" or "inoffensive", it's about how we imagine our character's reaction on how npcs approach them. And my stance on that, regarless what the dialogue is exactly about, is: The more options, the better. Of course that should also influence how that npc behaves towards our player character afterwards. If it causes no reaction, what sense does having dialogue options make? I already disliked that there was a dialogue option to insult Vanus Galerion in the Solstice prologue, but he didn't really react on it. It didn't leave an impact at all.

Well, perhaps we have some people who are just more light-hearted in the US versus wherever you live, since I know people who have this type of personality who are very well into adulthood.

I personally think that the writers for an MMO will only be able to go so far as to account for the infinite combinations of player races/classes/player preferences. The dialogue options are a start, but in the example where you have a proud altmer, would they then need to also stay away from all types of NPCs who would offend such a character? Maybe the NPC is too haughty and your Altmer would have none of it. Or telling your Altmer what to do in a way they don't like.

At some point they have to write characters and run with them, and I don't think they all have to be either likable or have branching stories where they treat your character completely different than another player's based on whether their personality bothers you or not.

Syldras · February 24

AScarlato wrote: »

Well, perhaps we have some people who are just more light-hearted in the US versus wherever you live, since I know people who have this type of personality who are very well into adulthood.

I'm only explaining why I think that some npc behaviours might seem harmless or completelely normal to some players, but brash, obtrusive or even insulting to others. Cultural norms aren't the same everywhere, and especially not when it comes to more personal interaction like flirting. There's no right or wrong, it's just different habits. But those influence how we perceive a situation.

I've also came across a user on this forum once who found Bastian extremely rude. I found that very surprising, since my personal perception of Bastian is the opposite. But then he explained to me why he had that impression and which things Bastian says and does are considered inappropriate in the culture he's from, so I understood why he came to that conclusion.

AScarlato wrote: »

I personally think that the writers for an MMO will only be able to go so far as to account for the infinite combinations of player races/classes/player preferences. The dialogue options are a start, but in the example where you have a proud altmer, would they then need to also stay away from all types of NPCs who would offend such a character? Maybe the NPC is too haughty and your Altmer would have none of it. Or telling your Altmer what to do in a way they don't like.
At some point they have to write characters and run with them, and I don't think they all have to be either likable or have branching stories where they treat your character completely different than another player's based on whether their personality bothers you or not.

In no way do all npcs need to be likeable. All I want to see is a reasonable level of reactiveness when player character and npcs engage with each other. I know an MMO has its limitations, but the more options - and reactions to those options - the better. The dialogue choice system is a good start, but I hope a bit more reactivity would be possible. Crudely insulting someone who then acts like a friend again 2 sentences later just feels off. People mourning and then being okay again after just 1 line of text also felt strange.

spartaxoxo · February 24

Syldras wrote: »

I've also never heard anyone complain about the darker themes in earlier ESO chapters. The opposite, a big number of players considers those ESO's "golden times" and would love to see them get back to that level and style of writing. The big question is why they don't, but give us what we get now instead. I don't think the audience has wished for this change, at least I've never seen it.

It's not that people asked for those things to be eliminated. It's moreso that studios have become increasingly beholden to how audiences will react on social media. The easiest way to avoid audiences being offended is simply not to handle those subjects at all and to avoid any language that might offend.

So you'll see a lot of safe, universal topics like the importance of friends and family ad nauseum. Alongside sanitized speech and broad humor.

They also make things repetitive and simple to understand because they know people are on their phones. It's 2nd screen writing.

Carcamongus · February 24

When I first read about this wing buffet thing I presumed it was lewd, but then I continuted to read and it appears to be a term used in this game? I googled the expression and was shocked it actually had some meaning in game. I can't recall any wing buffets in Tamriel, so did I miss a dialogue or an opportunity to stuff myself?

AScarlato · February 24

Syldras wrote: »

Crudely insulting someone who then acts like a friend again 2 sentences later just feels off. People mourning and then being okay again after just 1 line of text also felt strange.

I'll start here as it's easy to agree with. I prefer when characters are consistent also.

Syldras wrote: »

I'm only explaining why I think that some npc behaviours might seem harmless or completelely normal to some players, but brash, obtrusive or even insulting to others. Cultural norms aren't the same everywhere, and especially not when it comes to more personal interaction like flirting. There's no right or wrong, it's just different habits. But those influence how we perceive a situation.

I've also came across a user on this forum once who found Bastian extremely rude. I found that very surprising, since my personal perception of Bastian is the opposite. But then he explained to me why he had that impression and which things Bastian says and does are considered inappropriate in the culture he's from, so I understood why he came to that conclusion.

I think it's here where characters who are presently consistent may ultimately become either inconsistent or sanitized to the game's detriment.

I also would be shocked to hear that someone found Bastian to be "extremely rude" but I don't think the solution would be for him to be rewritten as a character soas to not offend a specific player's particularities. Nor do I think the writer's should have the burden of predicting someone being this offended and giving them dialogue options to confront Bastian about whatever the issue is.

I'm not sure if this game is M-rated in all territories but I'm assuming most players should be adults who should be able to handle personality types they dislike without hoping their characters have the option to commit violence against an offending NPC. If there are any extreme cases between cultures, then maybe they can hire a Localizer like FFXIV has.

Funny enough, in XIV there was an NPC who actually flirts with your character. Not just being called "Good looking" without the NPC being interested in you like Jakarn, but actually interested in your character. They "localized" that NPC not to offend the american player and now he's just a fan of your character rather than someone who would flirt with you.

I personally think that's boring and a loss, but hey - less people are offended I guess.

Syldras · February 24

I have already stated it's not about being offended as a player (I'm not the type to be offended by a fictional being in a computer game), it's about imagining how our roleplay characters would react to things they encounter, and the wish to be able to play them accordingly.

Which means different dialogue options (everything from strong approval to strong disapproval), or even gestures or actions - no matter if it's a hug or a punch (both can fit, depending on the character played). If I consider what kinds of people live on Tamriel, and how often the average player character kills other people, I don't think a violent reaction by some of them seems unthinkable. We also encounter npcs of the more violent sort, one of them was even one of the main npcs for Solstice as part of the Stirk Fellowship: Skordo. Why would a player character not be able to be like him, temperament-wise?

Also, I don't want any characters to be changed. Not according to my personal likes and dislikes, and not to some assumed mass appeal. As I stated, I wish for more options to play my fictional character the way I imagine them. Whether it's a friendly and merciful character or a grumpy, ill-tempered one (I have both).

spartaxoxo · February 24

I do agree more dialogue options are nice. Despite some of the flirtatious and jokey dialogue choices being groan inducing, I was still happy they were there and I hope to see the dialogue choices expanded in the future. I think having more options to handle things was one of the stronger elements of Solstice's writing, the dislike of specific choices aside.

AScarlato · February 24

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I do agree more dialogue options are nice. Despite some of the flirtatious and jokey dialogue choices being groan inducing, I was still happy they were there and I hope to see the dialogue choices expanded in the future. I think having more options to handle things was one of the stronger elements of Solstice's writing, the dislike of specific choices aside.

I agree. But the most I expect is a few lines of dialogue changing but the story / characters largely staying the same in an mmo. Afterwards the show must go on.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · February 24

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

It's not as simple as "epic" is an old word therefore making it okay, it's how it's used.

For example if an npc said: "This would be fitting for an epic" or "It will mimic epics of eras past" Few would bat an eye.
But if they said: "That was....epic!" it does not fit. Even less so if said by an eldrich being from beyond time and space.

She didn't say "that was epic" though. She described a massive multiplanar battle between her and Hermaeus Mora. She struggled to find the correct word to describe what she had witnessed to a mortal, and she landed on epic. Which is a very appropriate way for a fantasy character to describe a struggle.

No but she does go "...epic." She could've described it as epic or such in other ways, and why would she struggle find a word? My issue for several years is how human princes sounds. In this case it's also IRL human.

AScarlato · February 24

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

why would she struggle find a word? My issue for several years is how human princes sounds. In this case it's also IRL human.

Because I had no issue with this I can’t recall exactly where this dialogue was, but didn’t Ithelia start a bit addled? Due to her nature it seems plausible she may need to pause to collect her thoughts here and there.

BahometZ · February 25

Honestly, it's squarely on the audience of today not reading enough literature/history and watching too much social media. People are context-cooked. If your mind goes towards a particular meaning, have a think about why that is. Like someone might see the words "gaping maw" and go, why is their ass-play in this text? Its on you pal.

AScarlato · February 25

BahometZ wrote: »

Honestly, it's squarely on the audience of today not reading enough literature/history and watching too much social media. People are context-cooked. If your mind goes towards a particular meaning, have a think about why that is. Like someone might see the words "gaping maw" and go, why is their ass-play in this text? Its on you pal.

Maybe not the first example I'd use, but demonstrative nonetheless.

Zodiarkslayer · February 25

I think what is happening is that many people these days interpret what they read without being concient of their own biases and their own inability to not make everything happening around them about themselves.
People of the pre internet generations also had the curious ability to not have their feelings hurt by other people's opinions. Most curious, indeed.

That aside, the Ithelia dialogue in question is clearly using the word epic in a different way than it is colloquially used in modern times, both in connotation and application (what she herself thinks of the word and how she uses it).
Any deviating interpretation is not on the writer, but the reader.

BretonMage · February 25

AScarlato wrote: »

[
I have friends IRL who say "hey sexy" and it's just how they talk. It's just whatever, it's not an invitation to bed them.

I've had friends who did that as well, but it assumes a level of familiarity you cannot assume the player feels with Jakarn. If a mere acquaintance said that to me, it would come across as sleazy, and a punch would be well-deserved (in-game, that is).

AScarlato · February 25

BretonMage wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

[
I have friends IRL who say "hey sexy" and it's just how they talk. It's just whatever, it's not an invitation to bed them.

I've had friends who did that as well, but it assumes a level of familiarity you cannot assume the player feels with Jakarn. If a mere acquaintance said that to me, it would come across as sleazy, and a punch would be well-deserved (in-game, that is).

I've had this happen with relative strangers as well. Baristas, Bartenders, people in retail who wouldn't know your name that are just trying to be friendly. Maybe I'm just endlessly irresistible, or maybe they want to make a sale/get a tip.

Either way, I suppose I am a minority in this thread in believing that physically assaulting someone who calls you "good looking" is simply not sensible. Would you also want to punch a flirty female character? How are the quests supposed to proceed after you punch them? Should the guard come and give you a fine for assault and end the quest?

BretonMage · February 25

AScarlato wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

[
I have friends IRL who say "hey sexy" and it's just how they talk. It's just whatever, it's not an invitation to bed them.

I've had friends who did that as well, but it assumes a level of familiarity you cannot assume the player feels with Jakarn. If a mere acquaintance said that to me, it would come across as sleazy, and a punch would be well-deserved (in-game, that is).

I've had this happen with relative strangers as well. Baristas, Bartenders, people in retail who wouldn't know your name that are just trying to be friendly. Maybe I'm just endlessly irresistible, or maybe they want to make a sale/get a tip.

Either way, I suppose I am a minority in this thread in believing that physically assaulting someone who calls you "good looking" is simply not sensible. Would you also want to punch a flirty female character? How are the quests supposed to proceed after you punch them? Should the guard come and give you a fine for assault and end the quest?

I wouldn't do it irl for sure, but in a game where you're already killing thousands of people? I have to admit, Jakarn annoys me no end so I'm biased here. But it's common to want negative reactions to characters that players dislike. People who played Dragon Age will remember being able to punch a very controversial companion. Companion rapport goes way down as expected. In ESO, you'd only be able to get away with doing it at the end of a questline, perhaps, since writing in reactivity at the beginning of a questline can get complicated.

Edit: Regarding flirting in general, I've often wanted a reasonable/realistic answer to flirty types like Jakarn or Raz without devolving into insults. A "Strictly business, please, Raz/Jakarn. What can you tell me about x?" type of answer would be totally in character for my Breton.

Edit 2: Also, there's a bit of a difference between a friendly sales assistant and a person who you know has a history of being promiscuous, so the implications are actually quite different here.

Syldras · February 25

AScarlato wrote: »

I've had this happen with relative strangers as well. Baristas, Bartenders, people in retail who wouldn't know your name that are just trying to be friendly. Maybe I'm just endlessly irresistible, or maybe they want to make a sale/get a tip.

As I said: Cultural differences. Fake friendliness or even flirtiness to sell stuff is also frowned upon where I live. What people here would reward would be a polite, unobtrusive behavior: A polite greeting (usually just "Hello", or "Good day" in more formal environments), an offer to help if help is needed, and then wait in the background until called.

AScarlato wrote: »

Either way, I suppose I am a minority in this thread in believing that physically assaulting someone who calls you "good looking" is simply not sensible.

The question is not what a human living in the 21st century would think, but what stance a Tamrielian would have. So, what would a Reachman think? An orc from a clan in Wrothgar? A Dead-Water tribe Argonian? A ruthless mercenary? An irritable Morag Tong assassin? A Dark Brotherhood member? A cultist of Molag Bal?

AScarlato wrote: »

Would you also want to punch a flirty female character?

One of my characters has Blade of Woe'd half of Tamriel, regardless of race and gender. Why would that person who has sent innocent souls to Sithis, deprived husbands of their wives, children of their parents, and all other family combinations that there are, shy away from punching, let's say, Naryu, if annoyed by her flirting?

AScarlato wrote: »

How are the quests supposed to proceed after you punch them? Should the guard come and give you a fine for assault and end the quest?

A bounty would be fine. As for how the npc would react - depending on their character, I guess? I mean, my assassin character would probably also be fine with discarding them somewhere in a ditch for good, but I see how that might not be feasible in all situations.

AScarlato · February 25

BretonMage wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

[
I have friends IRL who say "hey sexy" and it's just how they talk. It's just whatever, it's not an invitation to bed them.

I've had friends who did that as well, but it assumes a level of familiarity you cannot assume the player feels with Jakarn. If a mere acquaintance said that to me, it would come across as sleazy, and a punch would be well-deserved (in-game, that is).

I've had this happen with relative strangers as well. Baristas, Bartenders, people in retail who wouldn't know your name that are just trying to be friendly. Maybe I'm just endlessly irresistible, or maybe they want to make a sale/get a tip.

Either way, I suppose I am a minority in this thread in believing that physically assaulting someone who calls you "good looking" is simply not sensible. Would you also want to punch a flirty female character? How are the quests supposed to proceed after you punch them? Should the guard come and give you a fine for assault and end the quest?

I wouldn't do it irl for sure, but in a game where you're already killing thousands of people? I have to admit, Jakarn annoys me no end so I'm biased here. But it's common to want negative reactions to characters that players dislike. People who played Dragon Age will remember being able to punch a very controversial companion. Companion rapport goes way down as expected. In ESO, you'd only be able to get away with doing it at the end of a questline, perhaps, since writing in reactivity at the beginning of a questline can get complicated.

Edit: Regarding flirting in general, I've often wanted a reasonable/realistic answer to flirty types like Jakarn or Raz without devolving into insults. A "Strictly business, please, Raz/Jakarn. What can you tell me about x?" type of answer would be totally in character for my Breton.

Edit 2: Also, there's a bit of a difference between a friendly sales assistant and a person who you know has a history of being promiscuous, so the implications are actually quite different here.

Well then you run into the scenario I suggested above where they have to write two paths for characters like Jakarn and pay for writing and voice acting differences based on how you wanted to change how they behave every time they see you because you would like the character to have a flag to not to call you good looking or otherwise sanitize him for your preference.

More likely they will just end up writing everyone inoffensively as I doubt that is very practical. Jakarn already doesn’t actually hit on or proposition your character - he’s always written as having some other love interest he’s very obviously interested in (Larisa and the female mage on high isle). So I’m not sure how his promiscuity changed that his speech towards the PC is rather tame.

As for Sydras - I don’t find being a murder hobo with Blade of Woe that is mostly used on non-story NPCs outside that one DLC to be something they can write around for Quest NPCs we are supposed to work with for the quests to make any sense. Writing around hyper violent PCs that are easily triggered into assaulting their story NPCs may not be an option they want to add in every story.

In a dream world we’d have branching paths and tons of options but I think single player games are more apt to have what you are looking for on that level … such as the Dragon Age example above which is single player.

Syldras · February 25

AScarlato wrote: »

Well then you run into the scenario I suggested above where they have to write two paths for characters like Jakarn and pay for writing and voice acting differences based on how you wanted to change how they behave every time they see you because you would like the character to have a flag to not to call you good looking or otherwise sanitize him for your preference.

Or Jakarn could be angered and leave, and the player character could continue the mission without him? Then no double voice acting would be needed, apart from one line where Jakarn declares he's fed up, and the player character can solve their problems alone.

AScarlato wrote: »

As for Sydras - I don’t find being a murder hobo with Blade of Woe that is mostly used on non-story NPCs outside that one DLC to be something they can write around for Quest NPCs we are supposed to work with for the quests to make any sense. Writing around hyper violent PCs may just not be an option they want to add in every story.

Assassins usually murder secretly. Also, the question was whether our character would punch a flirty female character. I just don't see how that was worse than killing one, which happens in this game all the time - both for "good hero" player characters who kill countless female bandits, cultists and also named bosses (real individual characters, not just some generic "(faction name) cultist/bandit" character), as well as "evil assassin cultist" characters who can even kill innocent commoners everywhere. Punching one story npc once just seems much less worse than assassinating hundreds. If this was a question about morals (I seriously don't know, my character clearly makes no distinction between male and female characters when it comes to violence, and in the real world I punch no one at all).

AScarlato · February 25

Syldras wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Well then you run into the scenario I suggested above where they have to write two paths for characters like Jakarn and pay for writing and voice acting differences based on how you wanted to change how they behave every time they see you because you would like the character to have a flag to not to call you good looking or otherwise sanitize him for your preference.

Or Jakarn could be angered and leave, and the player character could continue the mission without him? Then no double voice acting would be needed, apart from one line where Jakarn declares he's fed up, and the player character can solve their problems alone.

AScarlato wrote: »

As for Sydras - I don’t find being a murder hobo with Blade of Woe that is mostly used on non-story NPCs outside that one DLC to be something they can write around for Quest NPCs we are supposed to work with for the quests to make any sense. Writing around hyper violent PCs may just not be an option they want to add in every story.

Assassins usually murder secretly. Also, the question was whether our character would punch a flirty female character. I just don't see how that was worse than killing one, which happens in this game all the time - both for "good hero" player characters who kill countless female bandits, cultists and also bosses, as well as "evil assassin cultist" characters who can even kill innocent commoners everywhere. Punching one story npc once just seems much less worse than assassinating hundreds.

Getting to punch an NPC so they leave the quest means they have to write around that. Any important info will then need to be said by someone else. Or they have to rewrite other characters to account for said removal. Again it doesn’t seem practical and at some point they just want to tell a story that mostly goes as planned with few variables.

I was content with eso stories before they added dialogue options, so I don’t expect more than them adding some really basic variations here and there. Not rewrites and totally branching paths.

I guess they did do a branching path with Darien but maybe that is more for special situations. Romance obviously needs to be optional. Inane nicknames an NpC gives you don’t rise to that level.

Syldras · February 25

I mean, East Solstice has one quest at Aldwilne Citadel that has two different endings. If the characters involved in that quest ever show up again in the future, it would feel very strange if what was done to them (or not, depending on choice) in the Aldwilne Citadel quest would not come up again and not influence how they treat the player character. What they'll make of it, I don't know of course.

AScarlato · February 25

Syldras wrote: »

I mean, East Solstice has one quest at Aldwilne Citadel that has two different endings. If the characters involved in that quest ever show up again in the future, it would feel very strange if what was done to them (or not, depending on choice) in the Aldwilne Citadel quest would not come up again and not influence how they treat the player character. What they'll make of it, I don't know of course.

Well maybe they will do more branching paths in the future. Who knows. At this point we aren’t getting much new quests this year at all so my demands are quite low at this point.

WaywardArgonian · February 25

xbluerosesx wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

As to the overarching question of why that sort of writing is present, it's just the direction that popular culture took after a lot of it got homogenized under the influence of Marvel and other franchises like Star Wars. It's less to do with the way millennials actually talk and more with how media and mainstream culture became sanitized when executives realized that they could sell more copies of their product if it is rated PG-13. So you end up with this sort of performative toughness and quirkiness that has by now caught on in video games as well.

millennial writing, that's literally the term for cringe dialogue. if I called it twitterspeak would you feel better?

I know what you're referring to. I'm just explaining where this type of writing comes from since some comments in this thread were like "I'm millennial and I don't like this."

My feelings are not affected by what you want to call it.

katanagirl1 · February 26

I was never offended by Jakarn flirting but the lady in High Isle was cringy (lol appropriate use here) and the flirty options in Solstice are just horribly done. Those aren’t written as flirty, they are unabashedly an invitation straight to the bedroom.

EDIT: typo

Kallykat · February 26

While I'm generally not in favor of romance in games, I can put up with an annoyingly flirty character on occasion provided there are dialogue options that don't force me to flirt back or encourage their advances. I don't have to like every NPC; in fact, it would get boring if I did. Again, as long as there are options for different responses to those characters, I'm okay. They don't even have to go as far as letting me punch an NPC.

With regards to the original "epic" dialogue, I do think the way it's used feels a little modern, but it is by no means the worst offender in the game. I also agree with Syldras that it's less about whether or not a word has actual historic context and more about whether or not it feels anachronistic and so potentially pulls players out of the game world.