A Win‑Win Idea: Keep Subclassing Fun, Restore Pure Class Power

loveeso · 2:59AM

Me and my friends enjoy subclassing and we don’t want it nerfed. However, we also see that it has made pure classes much weaker. Players who care about class identity are understandably unhappy, because they either get excluded from endgame or feel forced to subclass, which means losing that identity. This problem needs to be rectified without nerfing subclassing, since that would make even more people unhappy.

The Core Idea

• It stands to reason that specialists should be stronger at their chosen focus than generalists.
• Example: someone who sticks with necromancy should be better at necromancy than someone who subclasses into many different things.

Suggested Solution

Reaching level 50 in all three skill lines of your original class could unlock the ability to become a specialist.

Specialisation Levels

• Level One Specialisation: If you still use two skill lines of your class.
• Level Two Specialisation: If you use all three skill lines of your class.

• Level One specialist: +15% bonus to those class skills.
• Level Two specialist (i.e. no subclassing): +30% bonus to all class skills.

• In addition to stronger skills, costs could also be reduced (specialists are more efficient).

Implementation

This could be added to the first passive in each of the three class skill lines, similar to how the Vampire skill line scales with stages. If developers have a better way, that’s fine—the key is rewarding specialization.

Why This Helps

• Keeps subclassing fun and available.
• Restores viability and pride for pure-class players.
• Creates a meaningful choice: versatility through subclassing, or power and efficiency through specialization.

EVEN MORE

As an alternative or COMPLEMENTARY solution to the above idea:

• Class skills of a specialist would gain additional effects based on the specialisation level.
• This directly addresses the problem with skills that provide named buffs and debuffs, where simply increasing power does nothing.
• This is important because simply increasing buff duration would not be enough incentive for endgame players. We can already maintain 100% uptime on shorter buffs so we will not be tempted to give up subclassing just because we can cast a skill once every 40 seconds instead of once every 20 seconds.

Further Progression – Above Level Two – Skill Mastery

• Another level of specialisation could be considered — Skill Mastery (this time per individual skill).
• This would consist of fully levelling up both morphs of a particular skill.
• Mastery would unlock further improvements, rewarding deep investment in a skill line.

spartaxoxo · 3:59AM

I think this is a pretty obvious solution type and it's a shame this wasn't considered at launch. I have a feeling subclassing would have been a big win if it had actually created the versatility that it aimed for without being mandatory.

Lord_Hev · 4:11AM

This would go a very long way to balancing the homogenized metas out. While the exact percentages can be adjusted, the concept is foolproof.

tomofhyrule · 4:13AM

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think this is a pretty obvious solution type and it's a shame this wasn't considered at launch. I have a feeling subclassing would have been a big win if it had actually created the versatility that it aimed for without being mandatory.

I keep saying it: I don't have an issue with other people wanting to modify their characters however they want. But I hate that the balance (or lack thereof...) makes Subclassing mandatory at the endgame level, particularly for supports who now have to source dozens of buffs since the DPS are empowered to toss all of theirs.

ESO is an RPG. We are supposed to make choices, not just get everything in exchange for nothing. Stop trying to take the RP out of my RPG!

Gabriel_H · 4:31AM

I suggested adding role specializing not that long ago. The reason I did so, rather than this approach, is that it adds a new layer where balancing tweaks can take place without disrupting sub-classing.

With a system such as what you are suggesting, balancing still becomes a problem. Lets say after implementing that pure Arcanist becomes the stand out DD class - unimagineable I know (sarcasm, people. Sarcasm). Do you then reduce the pure-class bonuses?

If you do that how does that affect the power of a partially sub-classed Arcanist? Any passive system like this would need to look more like:

• Two original class lines kept: +X% bonus to those class skills.
• All three original class lines kept (no subclassing): +Y% bonus to all class skills.

With X and Y being class specific %s. X may be 5% for an Arcanist and 10% for a Templar for example. The problem comes if X needs to be 0% to bring balance because the initial output is too high - which you can't tweak without affecting sub-classing - but being 0 also removes the incentive.

Edit: For reference - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685614/how-to-balance-sub-classing

karthrag_inak · 5:03AM

Khajiit likes the idea, but instead of giving a boost to base class specialization, this one thinks there should have been penalties to the performance of added subclass skills, in order to minimize powercreep a bit.

so perhaps -10% efficacy and +10% costs for non-class skill lines.

GeneralGrundmann · 6:14AM

Even easier approach:

-Only one skill line from a single class: no passives for this skill line
-Two skill lines from a single class: only first level of passives for both skill lines
-Three skill lines from a single class: as before, all levels of passives for all three skill lines

Sweet and easy.

Orbital78 · 6:16AM

I still think they should revisit the "class" sets that barely see any use.

Tannus15 · 7:28AM

I really like this idea, however i'd like to see it actually enchance classes, not just give out another generic buff. Maybe look at each class and take a minute to try and add some extra flavour.

I honestly thought when subclassing was annoucned they would add a new <class> passive line to put things like minor buffs and certain class identities into, like extra flame damage for dk's or bleed damage for nightblades or whatever.

try and add back some class identity.

frogthroat · 7:31AM

One way this could be implemented is to add a passive (that requires level 50) to each skill line that gives, say 5% bonus to other pure class skill lines.

As an example, for Templar:
Aedric Spear passive - "Increase the strength of Dawn's Wrath and Restoring Light skills by 2.5/5% (2/2)"
Dawn's Wrath passive - "Increase the strength of Aedric Spear and Restoring Light skills by 2.5/5% (2/2)"
Restoring Light passive - "Increase the strength of Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath skills by 2.5/5% (2/2)"

This way if you have 2 lines, you get up to 5% bonus to them, and up to 10% if you keep all 3.

Tannus15 · 7:56AM

Orbital78 wrote: »

I still think they should revisit the "class" sets that barely see any use.

100% this. the class sets, like most of the sets added in the last couple of years, are terrible.

I cannot stress how unhappy people are with the itemization of the last few years.
It's so bad.

frogthroat · 8:39AM

Orbital78 wrote: »

I still think they should revisit the "class" sets that barely see any use.

Excellent idea, especially if there would be more of them sourced from any other place than just IA.

And to take this idea further, people have been asking for capes. How about some back bling? A one piece, mythic-like back item - they could be capes, backpacks, and other back items. Class specific that boost your core class skill lines. Weight determines role and what it boosts.

Something like:

Templar cloak - increases magicka recovery, increases magicka based Templar skills by 5%, increases healing done by 10%.
Templar battle vest - increases stamina recovery, increases stamina based Templar skills by 5%, increases damage done by Templar skills by 10%.
Templar backpack - increases health recovery, decrease cost of Templar skills by 5%, increases Templar shield strength by 10%.

MasterSpatula · 8:47AM

Some intriguing ideas in here, but I"m not sure any of it is really feasible without the massive balancing pass that Subclassing appears to be an attempt to avoid performing.

Some class lines are so underpowered that 30% increased damage still wouldn't make them viable, while other skill lines would be nonsensically OP with a 30% bonus. The meta would just shift back to full-classes Arcanist, most likely.

loveeso · 10:22AM

Some really insightful comments here — I do hope the devs are reading all this!

To expand on why I suggested in my OP that subclassing shouldn’t be nerfed: the power creep ship has already sailed. Rolling it back now would upset a lot of players and risk losing them. If you nerf after people have already grown used to their current power, you not only make them unhappy but also create an unfair system for new players who haven’t yet earned their trifectas. Many players achieved their trifectas using the higher power levels introduced by subclassing and other changes, so taking that away would invalidate their accomplishments.

There’s also another important reason: progression groups. Some teams have been working towards their trifecta for many months or longer. They feel they’re finally making progress, and then suddenly their current team setups are no longer viable and all alternative setups are weaker. That sets all such groups back to where they were a year ago. It’s INCREDIBLY DISCOURAGING, it breaks groups, and it makes players quit. We’ve seen this happen many times in this community, and we’ve lost many players because of it.

That’s why the solution has to be about rectifying the problem of class identity without nerfing subclassing. We need a way to make pure classes relevant again while keeping the system fair and fun for everyone.

spartaxoxo · 10:28AM

loveeso wrote: »

That’s why the solution has to be about rectifying the problem of class identity without nerfing subclassing. We need a way to make pure classes relevant again while keeping the system fair and fun for everyone.

Not to mention there are some clear issues that were around before subclassing or even Arcanists. Like multiple AOEs got gutted prior to the release of Arcanist.

Fixing some of those longstanding issues to bring class skill lines in more parity with one another and then giving buffs for remaining pure class could go a long way towards making the game feel better to play.

AardvarkMcG · 11:27AM

I truly wish that ZoS implement something like this. I personally am not a fan of sub classing and do feel butt hurt that I am expected to do it to remain "relevant". Giving those of us who prefer class identity over meta a boost to make it a viable choice whether to subclass or not is something they should have done right from the beginning. Surely they didn't think that a meta would quickly be established and all characters become homognenised...

StihlReign · 12:31PM

loveeso wrote: »

Why This Helps

• Keeps subclassing fun and available.
• Restores viability and pride for pure-class players.
• Creates a meaningful choice: versatility through subclassing, or power and efficiency through specialization.

Great idea, nicely written, excellent post OP!

silentxthreat · 2:19PM

subclass should be limited to 1 skill line only

Tyrobag · 2:47PM

The problem is that this would limit builds more than they currently are. Certain skill lines are already barely/not usable because they underperform, regardless of the build you use. Adding on top of that what would effectively be an additional 30% disincentive would guarantee that those lines are only ever touched by their base class. The skill lines themselves need to be balanced, there is no blanket fix to this issue. Class skill lines were never properly balanced, and subclassing simply puts a massive spotlight on that failing.

Another thing I'd like to note is how people keep listing class identity as a reason to get rid of subclassing, as if it only applies to pure classes. Subclassed builds are just as entitled to their class identity as an unsubclassed build is. Just because pure classes have been wronged doesn't mean that the fix needs to be taken out of the hides of all subclassed builds (especially when there are subclassed builds that some people want to use but can't, since they're already worse than pure classes anyway).

BXR_Lonestar · 3:16PM

There is no way to buff pure classes while keeping existing subclass the way it is because any buff to pure classes will mean that subclassed characters using those same skill lines are ALSO buffed. Subclassing is going to require a nerf in order to buff pure-classed characters.

What I think they're going to need to do as a baseline change is concede that allowing players to transfer a class line's active abilities AND passives is what is creating the imbalance, which means that in order to fix this problem, the baseline step is going to be to allow you to use the skills from a particular skill line, but the passives are sticky, meaning you are stuck with them once you make a class choice at the character screen. In other words, you choose a templar, and your character can only use class skill line passives from the templar tree. This would significantly curb some of the power that comes from your ability to stack specific class passives.

Alternatively, they can remove skill line passives and make them sticky to the characters like a racial passive so that you don't have to worry about transferring passives from the skill line.

Either way, in order to make pure-classed characters more viable and competitive, subclassed characters are going to have to be taken down a notch (or several) because there is no way to independently buff pure-classed characters as it stands right now without giving a corresponding buff to subclassed characters using those same skill lines.

frogthroat · 3:23PM

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

There is no way to buff pure classes while keeping existing subclass the way it is because any buff to pure classes will mean that subclassed characters using those same skill lines are ALSO buffed.

No, I think my way would be possible. So there would be a way.

It would give a huge buff if you are using pure class.
A small buff if you are subclassing just one skill line.
And no buff if you subclass two skill lines.

A more detailed explanation in the comment #10 in this discussion.

Erickson9610 · 3:40PM

At this point I wouldn't mind if every single Class was reworked from the ground up with completely new skills — each skill line could have 2 damage skills, 2 tanking skills, and 2 healing skills, so you can't stack all into just one role. Everyone would be a jack-of-all-trades in their role, even if they're a specialist in their theme.

MasterSpatula · 8:24PM

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

There is no way to buff pure classes while keeping existing subclass the way it is because any buff to pure classes will mean that subclassed characters using those same skill lines are ALSO buffed. Subclassing is going to require a nerf in order to buff pure-classed characters.

What I think they're going to need to do as a baseline change is concede that allowing players to transfer a class line's active abilities AND passives is what is creating the imbalance, which means that in order to fix this problem, the baseline step is going to be to allow you to use the skills from a particular skill line, but the passives are sticky, meaning you are stuck with them once you make a class choice at the character screen. In other words, you choose a templar, and your character can only use class skill line passives from the templar tree. This would significantly curb some of the power that comes from your ability to stack specific class passives.

Alternatively, they can remove skill line passives and make them sticky to the characters like a racial passive so that you don't have to worry about transferring passives from the skill line.

Either way, in order to make pure-classed characters more viable and competitive, subclassed characters are going to have to be taken down a notch (or several) because there is no way to independently buff pure-classed characters as it stands right now without giving a corresponding buff to subclassed characters using those same skill lines.

Not quite sure you read the OP.