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The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Indeed, it doesn't really hang together very well. I hope ZOS realizes that this thing they tried--and I give them credit for trying something different--didn't work out too well. You know, sometimes I wonder if one of the points of this event was so that consoles and PC would get access to eastern Solstice at about the same time. Or, depending on the stupid meter, console might get access before PC. It really wouldn't bother me to wait for an update on PC so that console gets it at the same time; they could have just said that's what they were doing.
Just defining November 12 as the general release date for everyone would have been sufficient, yes.
It's still a bit hard to comprehend how or why someone must have gotten the idea that the player base would appreciate an over-1-month-long grind with always the same dailies. I would have thought it's rather obvious that most people find that nothing beyond tiring, especially with those less than ideal drop rates.
Anyway, we're at what now? 50%? I'm still doing those 3 gold boxes a day and a few crafting dailies, but all I get since days are duplicates. Of course they don't even sell well anymore.You know how long it takes them to get official word about anything out. If they're even crafting a response to the criticism of this event, we likely won't see it until the event is long over.
Didn't they say this year they want to react faster on feedback? I mean, they did post a bit on the first days of this event, when people reacted rather negatively, but then it somehow stopped.I usually leave the blue and purple ones for my antiquity-in-training character to dig up. (Working on maxing the skill line on my third person). The gold and orange ones (the two top levels--master and ultimate?) I have my main dig up immediately. But since leads can drop on any character, regardless of whether they have the skill line, I have run across the situation where I have too many dig sites in progress because I scry them up on my main and have my leveler dig them up (since digging advances the skill line, but scrying does not, and I can't go back to baby scrying once I've got big boy scrying abilities). Anyway...that was probably too many words to say that, yes, you can max out the number of active dig sites.
I couldn't be bothered to level that on any other character than my main yet. Maybe next year when I'll most probably spend most time on another character since my main has already finished all quest content (except for that in PvP zones).It is possible their development plans got sidelined by budgetary or deadline concerns.
If the means for creating some big, complex story aren't there, I'd rather see something generally smaller in scope (or rarer releases) than some half-finished thing. And of course I'd expect the price to reflect that.I don't know. Did Mannimarco even have teachings? Doesn't seem like he had the patience for that kind of thing. I think he wanted lots of followers to do his bidding--that is, follow his orders blindly--but I really don't know how much time he put into their training or induction into the mysteries of the cult.
I'm not particularly fond of people, but even I enjoy having a corrupting influence. No, but seriously: Wasn't Zumog Phoom supposed to be one of his students? And Wormblood, too?Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean the average worm cultist approached necromancy with the mindset, "I'm evil so I'm gonna do all the evil spells, ha ha!" But I do believe they reject the non-evil aspects of necromancy simply because they have no use for them. If, going by Zerith-var, necromancy can be used to redeem or guide souls, no Worm Cultist is going to do that. They don't want to help souls; they want to control them, enslave them, build an army of them. They're in it for what they can get out of it, whether that is power or vengeance or cozying up to Mannimarco, and benevolent necromancy doesn't get them any of that. That's why I consider them evil--because they take power and use it for evil ends. Them being able to justify to themselves their use of it doesn't actually make their deeds not evil.
As I said, the point for me that distinguishes "evil" from "good" necromancy is the question of consent. Basically whether a spirit is forced against its will or not, and whether the use of a corpse is unappreciated or not. Summoning a spirit who willingly shares secrets? No broken consent. Using the corpse of a creature or member of some culture that doesn't care for the physical remains of their dead? Causes no grief = not evil. So these acts would not count as "evil necromancy" to me, and I think a Worm cultist would surely not refrain from using them if they are useful in that moment.
To make it even more interesting, we could include daedra summoning into the discussion now. Which is, in the majority of cases, forcing the practitioner's will onto the daedric being. Which is a clear breach of consent. How is this not more evil than, let's say, resurrecting some small animal like a squirrel or a bird as a thrall (and just have it walk or fly around a bit) that isn't even aware of what's going on and might probably not even object to what's happening if it understood (I'm not sure whether a bird would object to flying around a bit despite being dead or care what happens to its remains)? Still, no one disputes the legitimacy of daedra summoning.I don't think Arabelle was flirting. All her "my dear" and "darling" talk sounded to me like an affectation--the way a certain type of older, refined woman refers to people. If there was more to it, I either didn't notice it or have forgotten it (both equally possible).
A few moments upon first meeting her, there's this dialogue bit:
"What was that about a proposition?/What sort of proposition?" -
"Oh, nothing tawdry, my dear. We'll be too busy for romantic shenanigans before long, I expect."
Also, she compares herself to inspector Vale quite often and tries to invite you to share "a bottle of two" of wine with her several times. Which is very much ESO's idea of "being flirty" from what we've seen to that point.
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Indeed, it doesn't really hang together very well. I hope ZOS realizes that this thing they tried--and I give them credit for trying something different--didn't work out too well. You know, sometimes I wonder if one of the points of this event was so that consoles and PC would get access to eastern Solstice at about the same time. Or, depending on the stupid meter, console might get access before PC. It really wouldn't bother me to wait for an update on PC so that console gets it at the same time; they could have just said that's what they were doing.
Just defining November 12 as the general release date for everyone would have been sufficient, yes.
It's still a bit hard to comprehend how or why someone must have gotten the idea that the player base would appreciate an over-1-month-long grind with always the same dailies. I would have thought it's rather obvious that most people find that nothing beyond tiring, especially with those less than ideal drop rates.
Anyway, we're at what now? 50%? I'm still doing those 3 gold boxes a day and a few crafting dailies, but all I get since days are duplicates. Of course they don't even sell well anymore.
I haven't been paying much attention to the meter since I stopped participating in the event, but I did check it today. PCNA isn't yet at 50%, but everyone else has passed that, and a couple of servers are in the 70% region. So maybe console will get the rest of the zone before PC--wouldn't that be something?
A couple days ago I did try to get back into the spirit of the thing, but the whole thing just annoyed me, and I haven't been back since. To Solstice, I mean. I've been in game a little bit on other characters.You know how long it takes them to get official word about anything out. If they're even crafting a response to the criticism of this event, we likely won't see it until the event is long over.
Didn't they say this year they want to react faster on feedback? I mean, they did post a bit on the first days of this event, when people reacted rather negatively, but then it somehow stopped.
They probably said that. Just saying it doesn't mean much, though. To their credit, they did react pretty quickly when the event started, confirming bugs and fixes, and clearing up confusion about what dropped where. That was some good work on their end, but since then there hasn't been much.I usually leave the blue and purple ones for my antiquity-in-training character to dig up. (Working on maxing the skill line on my third person). The gold and orange ones (the two top levels--master and ultimate?) I have my main dig up immediately. But since leads can drop on any character, regardless of whether they have the skill line, I have run across the situation where I have too many dig sites in progress because I scry them up on my main and have my leveler dig them up (since digging advances the skill line, but scrying does not, and I can't go back to baby scrying once I've got big boy scrying abilities). Anyway...that was probably too many words to say that, yes, you can max out the number of active dig sites.
I couldn't be bothered to level that on any other character than my main yet. Maybe next year when I'll most probably spend most time on another character since my main has already finished all quest content (except for that in PvP zones).
I'm doing it for the keen eye perk for chests. I still get a little excited when coming across a chest in the wild, and even though I know 99% of the time the items within aren't that thrilling, I just like opening chests. It's the little things.It is possible their development plans got sidelined by budgetary or deadline concerns.
If the means for creating some big, complex story aren't there, I'd rather see something generally smaller in scope (or rarer releases) than some half-finished thing. And of course I'd expect the price to reflect that.
I would also prefer really well-done smaller content releases over something larger not quite finished or polished. I know some people aren't thrilled with the idea of upcoming content being in older zones, but a good story that builds upon an established zone, or expands the lore within it, could be a nice addition to the game. What if, for example, they did a small release about fixing some of the devastation that happened in the base game zones? Rebuild Bleakrock, or re-establish Senie? It would mean phasing the zones, but it would also mean timeline progression, and you can make compelling stories about smaller topics.
As to the price, yes, it shouldn't be the usual chapter price tag for smaller content releases. That's one of my big concerns about this season cadence. They talked about varying lengths of seasons, which is fine if a smaller season fits a more confined/narrow story, but there's no way I'm paying $50 multiple times a year for content. A three month season should have a price tag to match. But, since they've told us literally nothing about future content plans, it's anyone's guess how it will play out.I don't know. Did Mannimarco even have teachings? Doesn't seem like he had the patience for that kind of thing. I think he wanted lots of followers to do his bidding--that is, follow his orders blindly--but I really don't know how much time he put into their training or induction into the mysteries of the cult.
I'm not particularly fond of people, but even I enjoy having a corrupting influence. No, but seriously: Wasn't Zumog Phoom supposed to be one of his students? And Wormblood, too?
Was Phoom a student of his? I don't remember that from the game, and the wiki says: "Some information paints Zumog Phoom as a ranking member of the Order of the Black Worm and a former student of Mannimarco, and he has been at Euraxia's side since her conquest of Rimmen." Depending on what the source of that 'some information' is, it could be accurate or it could be conjecture. Did we ever find out what Wormblood's status was? Secret heir, wasn't he?
But I'm willing to accept they were both his students. Two students out of how many cultists? When I think of the Worm Cult, i think of the rank and file we're always running across. Every now and then we come up against a higher ranking member, like Thalik Wormfather, but I also get the impression they're working for Molag Bal more than they are Mannimarco. And I don't think the rank and file follow Mannimarco's personal beliefs, if they even know what they are.Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean the average worm cultist approached necromancy with the mindset, "I'm evil so I'm gonna do all the evil spells, ha ha!" But I do believe they reject the non-evil aspects of necromancy simply because they have no use for them. If, going by Zerith-var, necromancy can be used to redeem or guide souls, no Worm Cultist is going to do that. They don't want to help souls; they want to control them, enslave them, build an army of them. They're in it for what they can get out of it, whether that is power or vengeance or cozying up to Mannimarco, and benevolent necromancy doesn't get them any of that. That's why I consider them evil--because they take power and use it for evil ends. Them being able to justify to themselves their use of it doesn't actually make their deeds not evil.
As I said, the point for me that distinguishes "evil" from "good" necromancy is the question of consent. Basically whether a spirit is forced against its will or not, and whether the use of a corpse is unappreciated or not. Summoning a spirit who willingly shares secrets? No broken consent. Using the corpse of a creature or member of some culture that doesn't care for the physical remains of their dead? Causes no grief = not evil. So these acts would not count as "evil necromancy" to me, and I think a Worm cultist would surely not refrain from using them if they are useful in that moment.
To make it even more interesting, we could include daedra summoning into the discussion now. Which is, in the majority of cases, forcing the practitioner's will onto the daedric being. Which is a clear breach of consent. How is this not more evil than, let's say, resurrecting some small animal like a squirrel or a bird as a thrall (and just have it walk or fly around a bit) that isn't even aware of what's going on and might probably not even object to what's happening if it understood (I'm not sure whether a bird would object to flying around a bit despite being dead or care what happens to its remains)? Still, no one disputes the legitimacy of daedra summoning.
I dispute the legitimacy of daedra summoning. My sorceress character doesn't summon daedra; never has and never will. I think it's crazy that having mages/sorcerers summon daedra is seen as no big deal everywhere we go in game.
I think you're taking a narrower view of necromancy actions than I am. If your single point of good or evil is consent, then using a consenting spirit is not, in and of itself, evil. I'm not looking at just the act of necromancy, or the specific spell; I'm also including what they do with it. So if a worm cultists gets consent from a spirit to be used, and then uses that spirit's power to kill a bunch of innocent people, I consider that evil necromancy. I also don't think the worm cult, as portrayed in game, would ever bother with asking consent. I also don't think, if they did ask for consent and the spirit said no, they would say, "Oh, ok, never mind then." And I'm sure they would never assist a spirit or render them aid in any way--the benevolent aspect of necromancy I mentioned before. This is why I consider them evil. Not because ZOS told me to, but because I have never seen them take the non-evil option.
Also, side note: are there cultures in Tamriel that don't care about the physical remains of their dead? That would be an interesting distinction, I think.I don't think Arabelle was flirting. All her "my dear" and "darling" talk sounded to me like an affectation--the way a certain type of older, refined woman refers to people. If there was more to it, I either didn't notice it or have forgotten it (both equally possible).
A few moments upon first meeting her, there's this dialogue bit:
"What was that about a proposition?/What sort of proposition?" -
"Oh, nothing tawdry, my dear. We'll be too busy for romantic shenanigans before long, I expect."
Also, she compares herself to inspector Vale quite often and tries to invite you to share "a bottle of two" of wine with her several times. Which is very much ESO's idea of "being flirty" from what we've seen to that point.
Oh yeah, I do recall some nonsense on her end like that. I vaguely remember being annoyed by her assuming I was asking about a romantic proposition. I also didn't like the whole, "No, I'm not the writer of the Inspector Vale" books thing they had going. I don't care about the Vale books, or who wrote them, and if she did write them, I think she's silly for denying it. Like, who cares who wrote these books? Why does it even matter?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I haven't been paying much attention to the meter since I stopped participating in the event, but I did check it today. PCNA isn't yet at 50%, but everyone else has passed that, and a couple of servers are in the 70% region. So maybe console will get the rest of the zone before PC--wouldn't that be something?
I've been there during the countdown to 100% yesterday, around 7 pm my time. Posted a few pictures here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8390687/#Comment_8390687
The fortress not actually opening immediately, but getting a timer for it to open almost 24 hours later was indeed a unique experience... I still don't really get why. First I thought they have scheduled the fortress to open at 7 pm and we missed that by 5 minutes, so we're scheduled for the next day. But then I read somewhere in this forum that someone got a 33 hour timer, so that hypothesis can't be right. That made me think the opening of the fortress might be generally set for Friday evening - but then I saw that 2 servers have already gotten access. I really can't make sense of it. And now the fortress is bugged, too. Honestly, I'll just be glad when it's over and we can cross to East Solstice. I hope the quests over there won't be bugged as the event was, at least.A couple days ago I did try to get back into the spirit of the thing, but the whole thing just annoyed me, and I haven't been back since. To Solstice, I mean. I've been in game a little bit on other characters.
I've done a bit of Worm Cult furnishing plan farming and indeed I already have 5 or 6 of those plans. As for the event furnishings and plans I was still missing: I just bought them.I'm doing it for the keen eye perk for chests. I still get a little excited when coming across a chest in the wild, and even though I know 99% of the time the items within aren't that thrilling, I just like opening chests. It's the little things.
I wished they contained more of the paintings, especially outside of base game zones.I would also prefer really well-done smaller content releases over something larger not quite finished or polished. I know some people aren't thrilled with the idea of upcoming content being in older zones, but a good story that builds upon an established zone, or expands the lore within it, could be a nice addition to the game. What if, for example, they did a small release about fixing some of the devastation that happened in the base game zones? Rebuild Bleakrock, or re-establish Senie? It would mean phasing the zones, but it would also mean timeline progression, and you can make compelling stories about smaller topics.
I would be okay with that, if the writing quality is fine. That's something I'm more concerned about: Writing possibly getting more bland and trivial. I think a boring continuation of an older story would also be even more frustrating than a boring completely new story.Was Phoom a student of his? I don't remember that from the game, and the wiki says: "Some information paints Zumog Phoom as a ranking member of the Order of the Black Worm and a former student of Mannimarco, and he has been at Euraxia's side since her conquest of Rimmen." Depending on what the source of that 'some information' is, it could be accurate or it could be conjecture. Did we ever find out what Wormblood's status was? Secret heir, wasn't he?
No one knows anything about Wormy. I'm not even sure whether Mannimarco really knows anything. A placeholder character, without any background.But I'm willing to accept they were both his students. Two students out of how many cultists? When I think of the Worm Cult, i think of the rank and file we're always running across. Every now and then we come up against a higher ranking member, like Thalik Wormfather, but I also get the impression they're working for Molag Bal more than they are Mannimarco. And I don't think the rank and file follow Mannimarco's personal beliefs, if they even know what they are.
It's a little funny we don't know much about the Cult at all (beyond members having some silly "evil" sounding titles and standing around at random places doing nothing), despite having come across them so often.I dispute the legitimacy of daedra summoning. My sorceress character doesn't summon daedra; never has and never will. I think it's crazy that having mages/sorcerers summon daedra is seen as no big deal everywhere we go in game.
I guess the general stance in Tamriel is that they're evil beings and therefore enslaving them is fine. Or maybe with animal daedra it's more akin to mortal animals. I doubt the average Tamrielian thinks much when using an ox to plow a field, and summoning a scamp for whatever task needs to be done might be just as mundane.I think you're taking a narrower view of necromancy actions than I am. If your single point of good or evil is consent, then using a consenting spirit is not, in and of itself, evil. I'm not looking at just the act of necromancy, or the specific spell; I'm also including what they do with it. So if a worm cultists gets consent from a spirit to be used, and then uses that spirit's power to kill a bunch of innocent people, I consider that evil necromancy.
But the use is not defining the nature of necromancy itself. People can also be killed with a spoon, still no one would talk about spoons being a tendentially evil and dangerous tool.I also don't think the worm cult, as portrayed in game, would ever bother with asking consent. I also don't think, if they did ask for consent and the spirit said no, they would say, "Oh, ok, never mind then."
As a Molag Bal cult, that's hardly surprising.And I'm sure they would never assist a spirit or render them aid in any way--the benevolent aspect of necromancy I mentioned before. This is why I consider them evil. Not because ZOS told me to, but because I have never seen them take the non-evil option.
They use necromancy in a way that serves them. They're non-altruistic. Why would they free some spirit? Doesn't help them reach their goals.Also, side note: are there cultures in Tamriel that don't care about the physical remains of their dead? That would be an interesting distinction, I think.
Sloads.Oh yeah, I do recall some nonsense on her end like that. I vaguely remember being annoyed by her assuming I was asking about a romantic proposition. I also didn't like the whole, "No, I'm not the writer of the Inspector Vale" books thing they had going. I don't care about the Vale books, or who wrote them, and if she did write them, I think she's silly for denying it. Like, who cares who wrote these books? Why does it even matter?
I don't get it either. Same behavior with the goat at the carnival.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I haven't been paying much attention to the meter since I stopped participating in the event, but I did check it today. PCNA isn't yet at 50%, but everyone else has passed that, and a couple of servers are in the 70% region. So maybe console will get the rest of the zone before PC--wouldn't that be something?
I've been there during the countdown to 100% yesterday, around 7 pm my time. Posted a few pictures here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8390687/#Comment_8390687
The fortress not actually opening immediately, but getting a timer for it to open almost 24 hours later was indeed a unique experience... I still don't really get why. First I thought they have scheduled the fortress to open at 7 pm and we missed that by 5 minutes, so we're scheduled for the next day. But then I read somewhere in this forum that someone got a 33 hour timer, so that hypothesis can't be right. That made me think the opening of the fortress might be generally set for Friday evening - but then I saw that 2 servers have already gotten access. I really can't make sense of it. And now the fortress is bugged, too. Honestly, I'll just be glad when it's over and we can cross to East Solstice. I hope the quests over there won't be bugged as the event was, at least.
I'm just waiting for true access to Eastern Solstice. I probably won't go over there until early December at this point. It's really too bad that the end of phase 2/start of phase 3 was such a nothing. I would think you'd want to reward people with some kind of spectacle if they made a point to be online at the exact time, waiting for something.I'm doing it for the keen eye perk for chests. I still get a little excited when coming across a chest in the wild, and even though I know 99% of the time the items within aren't that thrilling, I just like opening chests. It's the little things.
I wished they contained more of the paintings, especially outside of base game zones.
I do get a lot of the seasonal paintings. You know: "spring, bolted" or however they describe it. Some more painting variety would be nice.I would also prefer really well-done smaller content releases over something larger not quite finished or polished. I know some people aren't thrilled with the idea of upcoming content being in older zones, but a good story that builds upon an established zone, or expands the lore within it, could be a nice addition to the game. What if, for example, they did a small release about fixing some of the devastation that happened in the base game zones? Rebuild Bleakrock, or re-establish Senie? It would mean phasing the zones, but it would also mean timeline progression, and you can make compelling stories about smaller topics.
I would be okay with that, if the writing quality is fine. That's something I'm more concerned about: Writing possibly getting more bland and trivial. I think a boring continuation of an older story would also be even more frustrating than a boring completely new story.
That's why I said a good story that builds upon an established zone or expands the lore. I only chose Bleakrock as an example because I have seen many people ask ZOS to make a version of it that is rebuilt. For myself, I don't need grand adventures about war or daedric realms to be interested in a story. I could like a well-done story about the regular people of Tamriel dealing with less fantastic issues. The questions I have are: could ZOS write such a story? Does the player base in general want that kind of story?
Anyway, Solstice is a boring continuation of an older story. Was it more frustrating than the completely new boring stories of past expansions?Was Phoom a student of his? I don't remember that from the game, and the wiki says: "Some information paints Zumog Phoom as a ranking member of the Order of the Black Worm and a former student of Mannimarco, and he has been at Euraxia's side since her conquest of Rimmen." Depending on what the source of that 'some information' is, it could be accurate or it could be conjecture. Did we ever find out what Wormblood's status was? Secret heir, wasn't he?
No one knows anything about Wormy. I'm not even sure whether Mannimarco really knows anything. A placeholder character, without any background.
Lol, I just had an image of Mannimarco being puzzled when someone asked him about Wormblood and saying, "Who?"But I'm willing to accept they were both his students. Two students out of how many cultists? When I think of the Worm Cult, i think of the rank and file we're always running across. Every now and then we come up against a higher ranking member, like Thalik Wormfather, but I also get the impression they're working for Molag Bal more than they are Mannimarco. And I don't think the rank and file follow Mannimarco's personal beliefs, if they even know what they are.
It's a little funny we don't know much about the Cult at all (beyond members having some silly "evil" sounding titles and standing around at random places doing nothing), despite having come across them so often.
I think it's a missed opportunity, really. Of course, the exploration of why someone might join such a cult or what the cult is actually like once in it falls into the "smaller story" territory that doesn't seem to fit too well with MMO storytelling and the general "grand adventure" ambiance. Anytime we do meet a singular member of the Worm Cult, in a quest, they're either doubling down on the evil or saying "Joining was a mistake! Please spare me and I swear I'll never do anything cultish again!" They exist in a binary state.I dispute the legitimacy of daedra summoning. My sorceress character doesn't summon daedra; never has and never will. I think it's crazy that having mages/sorcerers summon daedra is seen as no big deal everywhere we go in game.
I guess the general stance in Tamriel is that they're evil beings and therefore enslaving them is fine. Or maybe with animal daedra it's more akin to mortal animals. I doubt the average Tamrielian thinks much when using an ox to plow a field, and summoning a scamp for whatever task needs to be done might be just as mundane.
As someone who isn't on board with the way animals are generally treated in our world, I can't get behind this reasoning for Tamriel either. I understand the people of Tamriel don't have such views and so would likely consider it in this light, but for me it doesn't wash. Also, I don't agree that treating an evil being in an evil manner evens things out. Again, I understand you're talking about the Tamriel sentiment here.I think you're taking a narrower view of necromancy actions than I am. If your single point of good or evil is consent, then using a consenting spirit is not, in and of itself, evil. I'm not looking at just the act of necromancy, or the specific spell; I'm also including what they do with it. So if a worm cultists gets consent from a spirit to be used, and then uses that spirit's power to kill a bunch of innocent people, I consider that evil necromancy.
But the use is not defining the nature of necromancy itself. People can also be killed with a spoon, still no one would talk about spoons being a tendentially evil and dangerous tool.
If people regularly killed other people with spoons, people would absolutely start to view spoons differently. They might even try to regulate their use.
I didn't say it was surprising.And I'm sure they would never assist a spirit or render them aid in any way--the benevolent aspect of necromancy I mentioned before. This is why I consider them evil. Not because ZOS told me to, but because I have never seen them take the non-evil option.
They use necromancy in a way that serves them. They're non-altruistic. Why would they free some spirit? Doesn't help them reach their goals.
That's why I consider them evil. I think we're talking at cross-purposes here, though. My argument was never that necromancy is, on its own, fully evil. But it does have evil elements to it. The ability to summon and bind a soul against its will is, in my eyes, evil. Necromancy also has beneficial elements to it. The ability to help souls. My main point is that the Worm Cult only uses the aspects of necromancy that tend towards evil because the Worm Cult tends towards evil. I get that they're not going to use necromancy that doesn't serve their ends. I understand they're in it for themselves and no one else.
Well, they're not really from Tamriel, though, are they? They come to Tamriel to be gross and pestilent, but they don't really count as a culture of Tamriel. I wonder if their bodies could be raised as necromantic thralls. I don't think I've ever seen an undead Sload, or a Sload spirit being dragooned into service by a necromancer.Oh yeah, I do recall some nonsense on her end like that. I vaguely remember being annoyed by her assuming I was asking about a romantic proposition. I also didn't like the whole, "No, I'm not the writer of the Inspector Vale" books thing they had going. I don't care about the Vale books, or who wrote them, and if she did write them, I think she's silly for denying it. Like, who cares who wrote these books? Why does it even matter?
I don't get it either. Same behavior with the goat at the carnival.
It kind of fits with their whole "not answering questions to further promote mystery" vibe. You know, like how they'll never tell us what happened to the Dwemer, or the details of the Coldharbour Compact. The carnival goat and the Vale thing are just smaller examples of the same basic principle. I don't care for it and I don't get why they lean into it so much.Edited by metheglyn on 14 November 2025 15:550 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm just waiting for true access to Eastern Solstice. I probably won't go over there until early December at this point.
It's really a bit of a strange situation for me. I had waited for access to East Solstice to finally open, and now it's open, but I don't do any questing. Actually I barely went there so far (except for 3 excavations - that's off the list now, at least). There's just too many bug reports in this forum, where people get stuck in quests, and I don't think it helps with immersion if I have to abandon quests somewhere in the middle and repeat them, so I wait with that for now. And the skyshard bug might be even worse, because I surely don't want to run to all locations a second time just for that after I've finished the whole content.
If I look at the map overview, even more than just the skyshards seem to be bugged, by the way. Most locations seem to be missing in the list, and a few that are not missing aren't listed with their name but just with "unknown location in East Solstice". I'm wondering whether they get everything fixed until the end of this month or whether I'll need to wait for December. Of course I find it concerning that this year's content was released with a much higher amount of bugs than any other ESO release so far. We paid more, got less quality. How will next year look like then?It's really too bad that the end of phase 2/start of phase 3 was such a nothing. I would think you'd want to reward people with some kind of spectacle if they made a point to be online at the exact time, waiting for something.
In terms of visual effects, it's all rather strange this time. Not even the Lens and its construction are displaying correctly. Throughout the whole event, and still now, random parts are missing - different ones every time I get to the camp. Sometimes the Lens was missing but the beam was visible, sometimes the other way round. And then, since phase 3, there's one big beam with an explosion sound that is triggered every time I arrive at the camp wayshrine - despite the Wall already being gone for days. I'm not sure what purpose that serves, since storywise the player character is the person shooting the big, final beam. There was no need to program some auto-trigger for it to shoot outside that quest conclusion.That's why I said a good story that builds upon an established zone or expands the lore. I only chose Bleakrock as an example because I have seen many people ask ZOS to make a version of it that is rebuilt. For myself, I don't need grand adventures about war or daedric realms to be interested in a story. I could like a well-done story about the regular people of Tamriel dealing with less fantastic issues. The questions I have are: could ZOS write such a story? Does the player base in general want that kind of story?
I'd be fine with that too. And the base game did have many smaller and not so spectacular stories, that I appreciated for the lore and atmosphere, which just contributed to showing us a complex fictional world. Although of course I also wonder how many players, of let's say those players who are still here, care for that. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, etc, but I found it astounding, to be honest, how much positive feedback I've seen during the past few days about the new story, despite it being the most formulaic, unoriginal and void of lore expansion I've ever seen in ESO. I could go into detail now, but I think we should discuss that after we've finished the story. I'm curious about your opinion on it!Anyway, Solstice is a boring continuation of an older story. Was it more frustrating than the completely new boring stories of past expansions?
Yes.I think it's a missed opportunity, really. Of course, the exploration of why someone might join such a cult or what the cult is actually like once in it falls into the "smaller story" territory that doesn't seem to fit too well with MMO storytelling and the general "grand adventure" ambiance.
I mean, there's some situation where a (of course former...) cultist tells you they joined because no one in their village appreciated their magical talent or so. Which seems rather mundane. And I'm not that sure either how plausible I find it when the Cult is just planemelding the whole landscape.If people regularly killed other people with spoons, people would absolutely start to view spoons differently. They might even try to regulate their use.
You would be surprised how many deadly incidents involving spoons there are on the Telvanni Isles.That's why I consider them evil. I think we're talking at cross-purposes here, though. My argument was never that necromancy is, on its own, fully evil. But it does have evil elements to it.
Just like spoons.Well, they're not really from Tamriel, though, are they? They come to Tamriel to be gross and pestilent, but they don't really count as a culture of Tamriel.
Yes, clearly they aren't inhabitants of Tamriel, but it was too good of a joke not to be made.I wonder if their bodies could be raised as necromantic thralls. I don't think I've ever seen an undead Sload, or a Sload spirit being dragooned into service by a necromancer.
Sure, everything that was once alive can be raised as a thrall. I wouldn't be surprised if they do that to eachother if it serves a purpose. They aren't sentimental about their own kind in any way, after all.It kind of fits with their whole "not answering questions to further promote mystery" vibe. You know, like how they'll never tell us what happened to the Dwemer, or the details of the Coldharbour Compact. The carnival goat and the Vale thing are just smaller examples of the same basic principle. I don't care for it and I don't get why they lean into it so much.
At least the Coldharbor Compact is a true mystery and interesting. What I see with that writer and the goat is that they drop so many hints on who they are or what they do/did that it's more or less obvious, but still they let them deny it. I'm not sure what for, and it feels like... redundant dialogue. Especially lenghty, repetative redundant dialogue, because the discussion always goes on... It's just boring.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I'm just waiting for true access to Eastern Solstice. I probably won't go over there until early December at this point.
It's really a bit of a strange situation for me. I had waited for access to East Solstice to finally open, and now it's open, but I don't do any questing. Actually I barely went there so far (except for 3 excavations - that's off the list now, at least). There's just too many bug reports in this forum, where people get stuck in quests, and I don't think it helps with immersion if I have to abandon quests somewhere in the middle and repeat them, so I wait with that for now. And the skyshard bug might be even worse, because I surely don't want to run to all locations a second time just for that after I've finished the whole content.
If I look at the map overview, even more than just the skyshards seem to be bugged, by the way. Most locations seem to be missing in the list, and a few that are not missing aren't listed with their name but just with "unknown location in East Solstice". I'm wondering whether they get everything fixed until the end of this month or whether I'll need to wait for December. Of course I find it concerning that this year's content was released with a much higher amount of bugs than any other ESO release so far. We paid more, got less quality. How will next year look like then?
At first I was just going to wait until the Writhing Fortress was gone, so the npcs wouldn't be nagging me to go in there and I could just complete the story quest and go. Then I saw all the threads about quest bugs, and figured I'd just wait even longer. I'm also kind of avoiding the forums right now because sometimes even a quest title is a bit spoiler-y to me, but people obviously have to use the quest title when they make a thread about a specific quest. Anyway, I'm just not really feeling in the mood for ESO lately.
However, I did much appreciate the post acknowledging the fallout of the event; I honestly did not expect that level of communication, and I am impressed with it.That's why I said a good story that builds upon an established zone or expands the lore. I only chose Bleakrock as an example because I have seen many people ask ZOS to make a version of it that is rebuilt. For myself, I don't need grand adventures about war or daedric realms to be interested in a story. I could like a well-done story about the regular people of Tamriel dealing with less fantastic issues. The questions I have are: could ZOS write such a story? Does the player base in general want that kind of story?
I'd be fine with that too. And the base game did have many smaller and not so spectacular stories, that I appreciated for the lore and atmosphere, which just contributed to showing us a complex fictional world. Although of course I also wonder how many players, of let's say those players who are still here, care for that. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, etc, but I found it astounding, to be honest, how much positive feedback I've seen during the past few days about the new story, despite it being the most formulaic, unoriginal and void of lore expansion I've ever seen in ESO. I could go into detail now, but I think we should discuss that after we've finished the story. I'm curious about your opinion on it!
I've seen one thread praising the story, but as I said I'm keeping myself mostly away from the forums because of unintentional spoilers. I really do want to finish the story and explore the eastern half, but the many bug reports are what's holding me back. A bug that interrupts a quest really takes me out of the story, particularly if there's a weeks long wait for a fix. But I will get there! And I'll also be interested in hearing your more detailed opinion about it once I've experienced it.I think it's a missed opportunity, really. Of course, the exploration of why someone might join such a cult or what the cult is actually like once in it falls into the "smaller story" territory that doesn't seem to fit too well with MMO storytelling and the general "grand adventure" ambiance.
I mean, there's some situation where a (of course former...) cultist tells you they joined because no one in their village appreciated their magical talent or so. Which seems rather mundane. And I'm not that sure either how plausible I find it when the Cult is just planemelding the whole landscape.
On the face of it, joining a planemeld cult because no one appreciates your magic is kind of...odd. But if there were details to the character's life and background that made it work...well, we don't really get that level of detail most often. But at least it's a better reason than others we've seen.
I'm getting to the point where nothing about the Telvanni surprises me.
I almost made a joke reply, but I actually am curious if there is a culture that isn't fussy about their dead. Like they realize the body is just a shell and doesn't matter once the spirit is out of it.It kind of fits with their whole "not answering questions to further promote mystery" vibe. You know, like how they'll never tell us what happened to the Dwemer, or the details of the Coldharbour Compact. The carnival goat and the Vale thing are just smaller examples of the same basic principle. I don't care for it and I don't get why they lean into it so much.
At least the Coldharbor Compact is a true mystery and interesting. What I see with that writer and the goat is that they drop so many hints on who they are or what they do/did that it's more or less obvious, but still they let them deny it. I'm not sure what for, and it feels like... redundant dialogue. Especially lenghty, repetative redundant dialogue, because the discussion always goes on... It's just boring.
The Coldharbour Compact is extremely interesting, but I think it gains some of its mystery and interest simply because they never tell us any details. As an admirer of Sotha Sil, I fully believe he's capable of getting the deed done, but I will always want to know how. And, you know, some of the princes don't seem to abide by it anyway, so if they gave a "yeah, sure, we'll agree," and didn't intend to keep to it, I get how he got those particular ones to agree. But the ones who do keep to it--that's where I want more details.0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Well, I couldn't wait completely. I've wanted to play the eastern side of the story since I finished the western side, so I went ahead and did the first story quest on the eastern side: The Worm Turns.
I'll use spoiler tags just in case.To start with, when I turned in the end of the previous quest: Crossing the Wall, I got a good chuckle out of Prince Azah telling me no one was more instrumental in busting through the wall than I was. "Uh, you've got the wrong guy," I told him. "You must be thinking of Syldras." Anyway!
The very beginning of the quest was a little off-putting to me because Skordo referenced an Argonian refugee who died trying to flee the Worm Cult and eastern Solstice, and I thought: am I supposed to know who he's talking about? Well, no, because he was talking about a no-name dead npc slumped on the side of the road that the player may or may not have even noticed upon approach (I figured it was a Stirk Fellowship person). But I brushed that off, because Skordo wasn't actually anything more than a breadcrumb guy at this point.
So I head on on and talk to Raz and Darien--both of whom I like (but not in a romantic way--in an adventure buddy way). I found it a bit of interesting lore in passing that the former Daedric ruin of Gristmung Hold had been repaired/restored since the Worm Cult took it over--I liked that Raz was bemused by that fact. I enjoyed the Raz-Darien dynamic with Raz saying, "Darien has no stealth" and Darien saying, "Raz said I walked silently like a dragon takes tiny bites." I thought: yeah, they are kind of a mismatch when their objective is ostensibly to quietly scout and that amused me. I also liked that Darien's attitude was, "Let's go rummage through their stuff!"
The first player response options we got for Darien seemed all right. The player could flirt (wasn't expecting that) or be supportive based on past adventures or give the more generic "you can do this" reply. So that covered a fairly good range of positive responses, but there was a lack of negative or truly neutral responses: basically, there's an assumption that the player character likes Darien and will respond from that standpoint. For me, that works, because I do like Darien. But for players who do not like him, they probably felt none of the options were good.
Well, time for us to invade one of their camps now! So off we go, murdering everything in sight and looking through all their stuff and, at one point, Darien gives me probably the best compliment any npc has ever given me. "You're an excellent rummager!" he says. I laugh and feel seen. I thought Darien as a tag along npc had better lines than they usually do and he didn't do the captain obvious remarks of telling me what I just read. He reacted to the pages I found, but didn't do that thing where the npc repeats the information on them as if I can't or don't read. In the post-rummage conversation at the overlook, I thought I was going to avoid being the dummy vestige, because at first I got to give an intelligent answer (I read the documents and figured out what was happening) but then I got an unavoidable question asking basically, "What's a shackle?" *sigh* Oh well. I did like the casual callback to strategy at the Crystal Tower when we were planning our next step. I also used a sneaky approach to take out the eyes--not sure that even mattered, but it was a fun change up in playstyle for me.
Took out the eyes, let my comrades "guard the platforms" and went on to light the signal fire. Met Jeetra and had the second player response options pop up. These were neutral-diplomatic, super friendly, or super gruff. I chose the neutral option, because it fit my character best, and overall I thought these were three good options. I realize there's only so many they can put in per dialogue choice, and these three fit the situation pretty well. I like that Jeetra doesn't overwhelm us with "hero" and "friend" talk, and I like her overall attitude. (I thought it was great when, later in the quest, she told Darien to "just stop talking and go already" after he gave one of his patented Darien hero lines.) At first I was pleased, thinking she didn't have some annoying name-replacement for me like "proxy," but then in our second conversation she started calling me "mainlander." It's ok, I guess, and at least she doesn't say it every other sentence--it was only there a couple times and made sense in context. I did find it interesting that her tribe was living in a daedric ruin before the Worm Cult got there, but I guess the stone doesn't need to be Xanmeer to work for the Stone Nest tribe.
Then we get a classic rpg moment of "into the sewers," though really it's just a small area inside the hold with a bit of sewer water in it. I did find it amusing that Jeetra led us to the sewer pathway and said she and her group was going to take a less smelly route.
The hold itself was pretty standard "quest leads you through a building to the objective" but I thought the whole "gate only stayed open for a few seconds" thing a bit weird. If I used the winch to open it, why would it slam shut again? Anyway, I spent a lot of time in that one room with all the bookshelves, reading some interesting lore about the Stone Nest tribe as well as a really cool book called "The First Dialogue of Mannimarco and Galerion." If that book was in the game previously, I never came across it.
The part where Darien couldn't get the light of Meridia to work was an unexpected wrinkle. I mean, I knew Mannimarco had sucked out all his inner Meridia light, but the lantern is something I could use, so why couldn't he? (Kind of seems like Meridia, in her infinite cruelty, is punishing him for having lost his inner light.) Anyway, I'll be interested to see how that plays out. Darien feeling lost and without purpose is interesting to me, because of how brash and sure of himself he's always been, and the player response options, again, worked for me but lacked a true option for someone who either doesn't like Darien or doesn't care that he's going through self-doubt.
It was surprising to exit Gristmung Hold onto Coldharbour terrain--actually gave me pause, which I think is a pretty effective use of terrain to convey story.
Talked to everyone at the little camp afterwards (liked that Raz is casually sitting atop some crates--different npc postures are nice to come across). I was glad to finally meet the "associate" who had helped the Great Mage. I think Prince Azah is written better this quest; his replies seem more measured and leader-like so far. I think Darien's characterization is good, too--he's still Darien, but more mature and even a little introspective, which is a nice touch of character growth. In view of his lack of Meridia light, he even asks the question "what was Gabrielle's sacrifice for?" It's a nice touch to have him a little somber.
I had thought we were actually going to capture Gristmung Hold and turn it into our base, but apparently not. We're just going to make do with a little camp on the other side of it? I think that's a missed opportunity, really. I wonder why they didn't have us actually capture it? I went back afterwards to see, and everything's like it was before we "took over" (minus the eyes and portals) and of course that gate still isn't open. I didn't try the sewer entrance--figured it would be locked now that I've done the zone story associated with it.
I really did want to get going on the next part: the Hunt for the Great Mage. But I know from forum thread titles that it's bugged. And my character has the skyshard bug, so I didn't really want to go exploring non-main quest areas knowing I couldn't pick up any skyshards along the way. I also think I'm not the only one holding back on questing, because the place was pretty empty the entire time I was there. Often times I was the only player in the vicinity, which rarely happens.
Overall I enjoyed the first story quest I did and am eager to see the rest of the zone. But I'm not going to try to quest with game-breaking bugs about, so...who knows when I'll get to do the rest. Hope the Great Mage isn't in dire peril!
So that's my (probably too long) impression of the first story quest on the eastern side! I really do want to get to the rest of the zone, but I know I won't enjoy coming across the bugs, so it's more of the waiting game. At least I'm enjoying the current event!
Also, I wanted to ask what are your thoughts on the Temporal Tomes scattered about Summerset? I know they've been in game all year, but I actually hadn't come across most of them as I hadn't been questing in Summerset lately (been playing characters in other parts of Tamriel). I think they're pretty interesting alternate versions of reality (basically what the world would look like if the vestige hadn't taken care of all the troubles). But the one in the Traitor's Vault was another bit of Mannimarco lore that goes along with a lore page found in the vault. Anyway, I enjoyed reading through them.1 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I wonder why the books are called Temporal Tomes when their contents reflect alternate realities more than they do time travel. Tapping or peering into alternate realities is something I would have generally associated with shadow magic, or as of recently, Ithelia's influence. Unless of course these books would imply the Psijics had bolstered the Vestige's efforts, but I highly doubt it.
Maybe it's just me hoping they give us more cool shadow magic lore. Or anything at all about Azra Nightwielder.0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Finedaible wrote: »I wonder why the books are called Temporal Tomes when their contents reflect alternate realities more than they do time travel. Tapping or peering into alternate realities is something I would have generally associated with shadow magic, or as of recently, Ithelia's influence. Unless of course these books would imply the Psijics had bolstered the Vestige's efforts, but I highly doubt it.
Maybe it's just me hoping they give us more cool shadow magic lore. Or anything at all about Azra Nightwielder.
That's a good point. Perhaps the name refers to them being from a different timeline (a different name for alternate reality). They're from a parallel timeline, so temporal? I don't know.
It would be interesting to learn more about these tomes. Does the Psijic Order have a whole library of them? From where do they get them? Is there a larger influence at work? (I would wonder about Ithelia, but we didn't get to keep the most interesting Daedric Prince).
More cool shadow magic lore would be much appreciated, alongside exploration of multiple realities. But when we did have Ithelia around, the only other realities we got to see were brief glimpses of doom, all to back up the idea that Mora was right in sidelining Ithelia.2 -
Finedaible✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Finedaible wrote: »I wonder why the books are called Temporal Tomes when their contents reflect alternate realities more than they do time travel. Tapping or peering into alternate realities is something I would have generally associated with shadow magic, or as of recently, Ithelia's influence. Unless of course these books would imply the Psijics had bolstered the Vestige's efforts, but I highly doubt it.
Maybe it's just me hoping they give us more cool shadow magic lore. Or anything at all about Azra Nightwielder.
That's a good point. Perhaps the name refers to them being from a different timeline (a different name for alternate reality). They're from a parallel timeline, so temporal? I don't know.
It would be interesting to learn more about these tomes. Does the Psijic Order have a whole library of them? From where do they get them? Is there a larger influence at work? (I would wonder about Ithelia, but we didn't get to keep the most interesting Daedric Prince).
More cool shadow magic lore would be much appreciated, alongside exploration of multiple realities. But when we did have Ithelia around, the only other realities we got to see were brief glimpses of doom, all to back up the idea that Mora was right in sidelining Ithelia.
Upon further thought, I suppose an Augur might have that kind of insight into potential events and outcomes however reliable that may be. Still don't know why the subject would never have been brought up if the Psijics knew about them though.0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Finedaible wrote: »Finedaible wrote: »I wonder why the books are called Temporal Tomes when their contents reflect alternate realities more than they do time travel. Tapping or peering into alternate realities is something I would have generally associated with shadow magic, or as of recently, Ithelia's influence. Unless of course these books would imply the Psijics had bolstered the Vestige's efforts, but I highly doubt it.
Maybe it's just me hoping they give us more cool shadow magic lore. Or anything at all about Azra Nightwielder.
That's a good point. Perhaps the name refers to them being from a different timeline (a different name for alternate reality). They're from a parallel timeline, so temporal? I don't know.
It would be interesting to learn more about these tomes. Does the Psijic Order have a whole library of them? From where do they get them? Is there a larger influence at work? (I would wonder about Ithelia, but we didn't get to keep the most interesting Daedric Prince).
More cool shadow magic lore would be much appreciated, alongside exploration of multiple realities. But when we did have Ithelia around, the only other realities we got to see were brief glimpses of doom, all to back up the idea that Mora was right in sidelining Ithelia.
Upon further thought, I suppose an Augur might have that kind of insight into potential events and outcomes however reliable that may be. Still don't know why the subject would never have been brought up if the Psijics knew about them though.
I've got the Augur of the Obscure hanging out in my villa. I could ask them and try to decipher the answer. As for the Psijics, they're so bound up in watching and deciding whether or not to assist/intervene, doesn't surprise me to think they know far more than they ever tell.1