Do you like subclassing? Simple Yes or No poll.

EmperorRemanIV · November 21

Yes I like it

I totally understand the people that say that this is an MMO and classes are important but I like to think of ESO as more of a proper The Elder Scrolls franchise game (Sounds idiotic and obvious but hear me out lol). In every other TES game, classes are more about passives and buffs rather than skills, you were always free to do whatever you wanted, mixing up anything you liked.

That said, I'm actually in favor of breaking the game even further. Abolish classes all together regarding the skill limitations, let us be free to combine anything we want without restrictions. Probably everything would have to be nerfed in order to balance things a bit but that would make ESO a bit more genuine as a TES game.

I played Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. I really don't see the issue of someone wanting to have a skill bar with 2 templar, 1 nightblade, 1 sorc, 1 dk skills and a warden ult all in the same bar. Actually makes it more immersive. You are living in this land surrounded by all kinds of sources of power, why would you want to be limited to just one?

Overamera · November 21

No I don't

All my endgame PvP friends quit before and after sublcass. Most of them knew it was gonna be sad to play beacuse all of our favourite mag/stam classes would be bad now and didn't even give subclassing a chance. The ones that tried subclass have now left the game.

DenverRalphy · November 21

No I don't

I'm not against the idea in general. But I'm a hard No on the implementation.

It's not subclassing as the name infers, as it's actually multi-classing. It was very poorly planned, designed, and executed. The powercreep is absurdly obscene. Class identity has all but disappeared. Pure classing is not only sub-optimal, but in some cases actually took a performance hit. And balancing, which was already in a pretty poor state, fell off a cliff.

Not to mention incidental side effects. Like new player retention. Within guilds where I'm in a position to take note, there's an increase in new players/members who simply go permanently inactive when they see the additional time of progression sub-classing has piled on.

And I don't recall anybody ever asking for it. It was supposedly the answer to requests for class change, which would have been entirely different.

Finedaible · November 21

Yes I like it

Overall I think Subclassing was a risk worth taking since ZoS wishes to restrict the game to old hardware and can't really add a ton of new skills because of those restraints. It at least gives people who only have time to main a single character more options to explore.

My only apprehension is that subclassing was obviously implemented in a haste. I fear they will start harshly 'adjusting' individual class skill lines in a vacuum going into this next year like we have already started to see with some lines, leading to weaker pure classes.

What I would really like to see now are more grimoire options, especially class grimoires.

twisttop138 · November 21

No I don't

Orbital78 wrote: »

KalevaLaine wrote: »

Nope. Hate it. Almost all my chars are useless in any way now or they feel useless. Was thinking about to quit the game. I play just pure and left a trial gruop cuz they wanted to play me this way.

That is just end game mindset period. Before subclassing you were already required to run specific classes and builds most of the time. If the raid lead knew you cooked with dk or necro they might have made an exception.

We were clearing content like vDSR with 80k DPS, requirements of 120-150k is kind of silly but let them spend the time looking for people wanting to do old content at those levels.

Idk what endgame you're a part of but this isn't something I see. If you're in a group and they ask you for 150k DPS for vDSR, you should laugh at them. I guess this could happen in a pug group maybe but not in any guild or organized group I've been a part of. In my social guild, we've taught casuals and senior citizens to clear that with no requirements or gear check. Requirements for gear and dps become a part of hard mode and progression stuff but then it's more of everyone respecting each other's time and commitment by bringing their best possible playing.

Orbital78 · November 21

Yes I like it

twisttop138 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

KalevaLaine wrote: »

Nope. Hate it. Almost all my chars are useless in any way now or they feel useless. Was thinking about to quit the game. I play just pure and left a trial gruop cuz they wanted to play me this way.

That is just end game mindset period. Before subclassing you were already required to run specific classes and builds most of the time. If the raid lead knew you cooked with dk or necro they might have made an exception.

We were clearing content like vDSR with 80k DPS, requirements of 120-150k is kind of silly but let them spend the time looking for people wanting to do old content at those levels.

Idk what endgame you're a part of but this isn't something I see. If you're in a group and they ask you for 150k DPS for vDSR, you should laugh at them. I guess this could happen in a pug group maybe but not in any guild or organized group I've been a part of. In my social guild, we've taught casuals and senior citizens to clear that with no requirements or gear check. Requirements for gear and dps become a part of hard mode and progression stuff but then it's more of everyone respecting each other's time and commitment by bringing their best possible playing.

I don't really end game or aspire to anymore, I just do casual stuff with my guilds and run whatever I want but I see this in discords and group finder mostly. I have a full sticker book at this point and only really help guildmates or for fun.

ToddIngram · November 21

No I don't

My problem with subclassing is less to do with subclassing than it does with why I think subclassing was implemented. I think we will never again see a new class now. Subclassing eliminates the need to create a new class. Vengeance and subclassing are efforts to work toward officially entering maintenance mode. ZOS seems to be focusing on systems they'll have to put minimum inputs into to keep functioning.

SneaK · November 21

No I don't

ToddIngram wrote: »

My problem with subclassing is less to do with subclassing than it does with why I think subclassing was implemented. I think we will never again see a new class now. Subclassing eliminates the need to create a new class. Vengeance and subclassing are efforts to work toward officially entering maintenance mode. ZOS seems to be focusing on systems they'll have to put minimum inputs into to keep functioning.

That’s a unique and scary observation.

Dojohoda · November 21

No I don't

The effect was a PVE class and a PVP class.

tomofhyrule · November 21

Trying to make this question a binary is the reason this is so controversial.

Anything added to the game should be a choice. The ability to use any skill lines to customize your characters should be a great way to add freedom to the game and allow people to make their characters the way they want them to. It should be a way to build to cover your own weaknesses and be able to do different things.

And it should be balanced such that choosing not to is not leagues behind in power.

That's the problem. Instead of coming together as a community and celebrating more freedom, the devs have set it up in the laziest possible way that directly forces the "I want to RP however I want" and "I want a balanced game at the highest level" are directly in conflict. Those should not be opposites, and yet the Combat team set it up so that they were.

And what do we have now? Thread after thread of people vehemently supporting their own, to the logical extreme of "if you don't believe me, you're a literal troll who wants the game to die!" (and ironically ignoring how they are just as inflexible as the ones they're complaining about).

If the Combat Team had spend a second and a half to think about the ramifications of Subclassing, as it was done, beyond "yay! I can have all the pets!" (which, if you recall, was also bugged on release and trying to have all the pets made you hit the pet cap early since Necro pets weren't replacing corpses on release), then we wouldn't have as much conflict. This needed to have balance be an actual consideration.

If it were more balanced, then the people who just want the freedom could still have gotten some, and the people who want a healthy endgame could also have had something as well. But as it stands, one group got everything and the other got nothing, and that's not the genesis of a good compromise - especially when giving group A one thing involves taking it away from group B.

So, for those of you who like subclassing: If you can't recognize that this was implemented as an unbalanced mess and really started to destroy endgame, you are part of the problem.
For those of you who dislike subclassing: If you can't recognize that this gives players the ability to build more freely, similar to the mainline TES games, you are part of the problem.
It is okay no like or dislike it because of reasons, but it's when you act like the other side doesn't have a point that you are not engaging in good faith.

Akatron · November 21

Yes I like it

I think the subclass skills should adapt their color to that of the main class.
This will help for a better class-feeling.

Radiate77 · November 21

Yes I like it

Akatron wrote: »

I think the subclass skills should adapt their color to that of the main class.
This will help for a better class-feeling.

Having seen Skill Styling come out as an in-game unlockable reward system, and inevitably turn into a Crown Store gimmick, I’m afraid that ship has sailed.

I would love if all my Subclassed skills had a ghostly blue or white aura to them when used on my Necromancer.

tincanman · November 21

A binary choice doesn't quite work.

The system is closer to previous elder scrolls titles in that it gives the appearance of choice and customisation of characters but, unlike previous titles, this customisation potential is not available at character creation. Unfortunately, it also involves yet another unwelcome grind once it becomes available. This grind is particularly egregious because it amounts to little more than time-wasting over levelling skills that have already been levelled multiple times on multiple characters.

However, I don't think it really fits with eso, given the concrete classes the game was designed around. Which, of course, results in the inevitable destruction of those concrete classes because the same unimaginative process that created subclassing cannot comprehend that many would prefer not to break with those classes and, accordingly, nerfs those classes core passives and skills rather than specifically curb those skills and passives power when used in subclassing. With inevitable results of one_build_to_rule_them_all and a lot of disgruntled players who would prefer to have actual choice whether they subclass or not with viability regardless.

The overall result is then pretty much summarised as 'play the way we want' which I am not at all fond of in this case. Still, this setup illustrates(among other observations) to me very well that players are still not listened to and the overarching developmental paradigm that continues to permit this apparent deafness is the false assumption that "players don't know what they want" (Lambert et al). As an aside this is why I think all these tests, surveys etc will result in pretty much business as usual: again because of that pernicious falsehood that 'players don't really know what they want'.

Digression aside: this is why the obligatory 'other' option is invariably preferred in any poll that might seem superficially binary - to account for those "I like this aspect but loathe this one" or "if they did xyz instead then..." or "I wanted it blue and green and yellow and red, not a uniform grey" etc.

Oberon45 · November 21

Yes I like it

I have really enjoyed subclassing. One of my favorite things to do in game is to experiment with builds and see what works and what does not (and what fails spectacularly). Getting the freedom to mix and match class skill lines have really added a new dimension to trying out new and interesting things and have been a real add to my enjoyment and engagement with the game.

AScarlato · November 21

Yes I like it

RPer here.

Yes. More freedom to express myself and my characters.

I don't do Vet or Trials or anything, so the meta doesn't impact my time in game.

cyclonus11 · November 21

Yes I like it

"Does majority hate it or does the minority."

Perhaps it's the secret third option

Tariq9898 · November 21

cyclonus11 wrote: »

"Does majority hate it or does the minority."

Perhaps it's the secret third option

Now is my moment to say the poll is “perfectly balanced as all things should be.” For now.

Elvenheart · November 21

Yes I like it

tincanman wrote: »

A binary choice doesn't quite work.

The system is closer to previous elder scrolls titles in that it gives the appearance of choice and customisation of characters but, unlike previous titles, this customisation potential is not available at character creation. Unfortunately, it also involves yet another unwelcome grind once it becomes available. This grind is particularly egregious because it amounts to little more than time-wasting over levelling skills that have already been levelled multiple times on multiple characters.

I like the idea of Subclassing, but I think thes are two VERY good points about the system the way it is now. If you already have a character with level 50 skills, those skills should automatically be level 50 when you unlock them. And when you create a new character, all of the skills should automatically be unlocked and choosable at that time. I think that would make Subclassing better, along with integrating new class skills into the system.

Nemesis7884 · November 21

not as simple

my first priority would be a classless purely skill line based system because thats what elder scrolls is...

I do prefer on 2nd place a subclass system before the previous implementation of weaksauce classes without identity that all feel and play the same but would prefer over that distinct individual classes with a strong identity and differences...

The issue with ESO is that the classes didnt have a lot of distinction and identity to begin with and this was even more eroded over time...there is no point in having different classes if they all feel the same anyway.

Alchimiste1 · November 21

No I don't

SneaK wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

My problem with subclassing is less to do with subclassing than it does with why I think subclassing was implemented. I think we will never again see a new class now. Subclassing eliminates the need to create a new class. Vengeance and subclassing are efforts to work toward officially entering maintenance mode. ZOS seems to be focusing on systems they'll have to put minimum inputs into to keep functioning.

That’s a unique and scary observation.

he's right through. why go through all the effort to create a thematically lore accurate class with complementary skill lines when 90% of the players base is just going to strip it down and pick the one skill line that's best and use that with other class lines ?

best eso players can hope for now is new skill lines like a spear or something.

tomofhyrule · November 22

ToddIngram wrote: »

My problem with subclassing is less to do with subclassing than it does with why I think subclassing was implemented. I think we will never again see a new class now. Subclassing eliminates the need to create a new class. Vengeance and subclassing are efforts to work toward officially entering maintenance mode. ZOS seems to be focusing on systems they'll have to put minimum inputs into to keep functioning.

I will say that I don't think Subclassing necessarily will lead to no new classes. But I'm not super optimistic on that front (even though 'New Classes' is the thing I want most in this game, and I'd give ZOS a blank check right now for an Artificer)

For me, it's the balance. The Combat balance right now is abysmal, and it'll be a hard sell to want to add anything new to the muddle that we already have. I could really see wanting to avoid adding anything new combat-related in general for a while.
(Not that that's stopped them before...)

Then again, I think Subclassing itself actually makes adding new Classes easier. Before, the only way we would be able to play with the new shiny Class was if we made a brand new character. But with Subclassing, we could just take those lines on existing characters and go from there like it were any other skill line (and then those people like me who would want to start a brand new character would be able to as well).

I do have my eyebrows raised a bit about the combat animation changes that were pushed through despite the feedback and bugs - it was confirmed that it was done to save memory on older hardware, and we heard that adding Arcanist was difficult because older hardware has memory limitations since it needs to keep a lot of animations loaded at all times. That really does make me think that they needed that memory space ASAP as if they were planning on coming out with something soon, and I really really really really really really hope that it signifies a new Class is inbound. Plus we didn't get a Companion at all in 2025, so we're due for one, and that'd be a really nice thing to drop if we got a new Class to have a Companion to go with it.

amiiegee · November 22

No I don't

Radiate77 wrote: »

These forums are a small subset of the actual playerbase. More than 90% of the people who used to participate here have either been banned, or no longer use this place to communicate.

People who got banned typically got banned for critising but specially in a wrong tone.
Im in like 20 eso discords and when the game used to be active on my server, spoke a lot in guild chat‘s.

It feels like way more then 50% dont like subclassing and a lot want it to be rolled back.

Anyway nothing has ever splitted the games community and caused so much damage, resulting in people to quit, like subclassing.

Radiate77 · November 22

Yes I like it

I’m sure population isn’t down because this has been the lightest content year we’ve ever had, with a failed Content Pass concept that brought us the worst experience we’ve ever had in the history of ESO leading up to the Writhing Wall, and sold us rehashed Altmer and Argonian assets, our year one villain and hero, with no new class, no new skill lines, and zero balance changes all year following the biggest combat shake-up we’ve ever had.

Must be Subclassing.

I’m sure if the same few people keep shouting from the roof-tops that it’s Subclassing, instead of the scam we call a Content Pass, we’ll all eventually believe you guys, right?

Orbital78 · November 22

Yes I like it

Radiate77 wrote: »

I’m sure population isn’t down because this has been the lightest content year we’ve ever had, with a failed Content Pass concept that brought us the worst experience we’ve ever had in the history of ESO leading up to the Writhing Wall, and sold us rehashed Altmer and Argonian assets, our year one villain and hero, with no new class, no new skill lines, and zero balance changes all year following the biggest combat shake-up we’ve ever had.

Must be Subclassing.

I’m sure if the same few people keep shouting from the roof-tops that it’s Subclassing, instead of the scam we call a Content Pass, we’ll all eventually believe you guys, right?

Or the constant nerfs over the years, which I think many of the people who called for those nerfs don't even play the game anymore.

Hopefully the combat team gets some better leadership tips/direction next year, or I don't see the trend ending. Fun and enjoyable combat that isn't play how you want, but how about you just play this pigeon holed ways.

AvalonRanger · November 22

Yes I like it

Yes...but. After Subclass grinding, every my mag DPS looks like same.
Lost personality. This is not good as RPG.

AvalonRanger · November 22

Yes I like it

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Yes...but. After Subclass grinding, every my mag DPS looks like same.
Lost personality. This is not good as RPG.

I want something cosmetic effect to maintain original class theme for subclass skills.

CoronHR · November 22

No I don't

i don't like it. i use it, i benefit from it for my main character, who as a pure class didn't perform as well, but i don't like what it's done to classes in general and i'd prefer it if it had never been introduced. if i needed a high-performing character, i could always switch to my arcanist alt

Arkew · November 22

No I don't

subclassing yes and no.

Yes in pve, in pve meta is not annoying, you not gonna see trial boss complain about get beam 24h/24 7d/7.

but no in pvp, i'm become annoyed about everyone run the same 3 skill tree (companion animal - storm calling - assasination)

CatoUnchained · November 22

ToddIngram wrote: »

My problem with subclassing is less to do with subclassing than it does with why I think subclassing was implemented. I think we will never again see a new class now. Subclassing eliminates the need to create a new class. Vengeance and subclassing are efforts to work toward officially entering maintenance mode. ZOS seems to be focusing on systems they'll have to put minimum inputs into to keep functioning.

Scary thought, but you're not the only one to have it. I fear for the future of ESO for a lot of reasons.

Tyrobag · November 22

Yes I like it

I like subclassing. What I do not like (and I think this is at the core of a lot of naysayers' issues) is how poorly balanced the class skill lines are, which is brought into stark contrast by subclassing. Subclassing itself, the ability to choose which skill lines are part of our own class, is not the problem. The problem is ZoS' odd aversion to actual game balance (the same reason we have 600+ item sets but somehow less than 5% are actually worth using).