Where are Sai Sahan, Lyris, and Abnur Tharn?

AScarlato · November 3

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Here’s another fun little related lore tidbit regarding returning and non-returning characters:

So if you read the Stirk Fellowship motif books, they do talk about working under the leaders:
High King Emeric of the Daggerfall Covenant

Queen Ayrenn of the Aldmeri Dominion

Prince Irnskar of the Ebonheart Pact

Gabrielle Benele, acting head of the Mages Guild

Skordo, acting head of the Fighters Guild

So… is Irnskar now officially in charge of the EP, considering it doesn’t say “acting leader”? During High Isle, it’s just that Jorunn was just in Riften with a girlfriend - which was an appalling reason to skip, especially when there is literally a deadly disease going around that he could have caught and then had his son go in his stead. Why didn’t the lore team make up a plausible reason for that? And now, if Irnskar is sill leading, could they really have not just fixed all of that by dropping one line someone says like “oh, they’re trying to downplay it, but King Jorunn caught the Knahaten Flu so that’s why Irnskar is leading everything now”

Or is this a Game of Thrones style “we just forgot about Jorunn”?

Maybe it's the voice acting for Jorunn, but in scenes with them together (I just finished Greymoor and the Epilogue on a character last week), Jorunn can come across as aloof and he has a reputation as not being the sharpest leader - though the people commenting are in opposition to him. Since there is a theme for Irnskar coming out from his father's shadow, it could be a combination of Jorunn letting his son grow, and just being interested more in dalliances.

Then why don’t they say that?!?!

I have felt a clear anti-EP bias from the devs over the years - Ayrenn can do anything the plot demands of her and her right hand is injected into every other story whether he needs to be or not (even though he wants to sacrifice himself at the end of the basegame AD line), and Emeric is a competent leader… at least until he’s in a room with Ayrenn and he becomes a petulant child.

But still, let’s take things at face value. The leaders (and MQ Companions) are big-name actors, even as much as Jorunn’s VA is atrocious and putting in no effort whatsoever, so of course they can’t get them back. So then at least give plausible excuses for their absences, don’t just ignore it and hope nobody notices (like in Solstice), or even worse, make up an insultingly bad excuse when you have a plausible reason right there like in High Isle.

I agree with you - Jorunn and EP players should get the same dedication as any of the other leaders. And I tend to agree about the voice acting; I put in an edit after you quoted where he comes across like a "kind and distracted grandpa" as opposed to the leader of an alliance voice-acting wise.

Perhaps it is good voice acting after all and this is what they want for the character, but it would be great to get more insight.

The writers have had a tendency to write a lot of Nords as buffoonish, so that can be worrisome.

tomofhyrule · November 3

AScarlato wrote: »

The writers have had a tendency to write a lot of Nords as buffoonish, so that can be worrisome.

This is another thing that gets me.

I like Nords - they’re not my favorites (Orcs ftw) - but they are a lot more than drunken louts, and Skyrim definitely showed them as people more than caricatures.

But I fell like Nords got the shortest stick in ESO, where every. other. Nord. is. RIGURT! Ugh.

Meanwhile, we get the Altmer, and very few of them match their stereotype. It’s almost like the team felt bad that 4E Altmer were …what they were, and desperately tried to overcorrect for ESO.
(Despite this AD still nominally pushing Elven Supremacy, which is not seen anywhere in the AD line…)

twisttop138 · November 3

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m sure they’re just shacking up with their new girlfriends in Riften.

Isn’t that how we excuse important characters’ absences now?

I don't have the same opinion of high isle as many, but that part was crazy. I mean, really? He's in Riften getting busy?

ArchMikem · November 4

Lyris and Sai are off spending time together.

And Tharn is. Well, Elsweyr happened to Tharn.

spartaxoxo · November 4

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

The writers have had a tendency to write a lot of Nords as buffoonish, so that can be worrisome.

This is another thing that gets me.

I like Nords - they’re not my favorites (Orcs ftw) - but they are a lot more than drunken louts, and Skyrim definitely showed them as people more than caricatures.

But I fell like Nords got the shortest stick in ESO, where every. other. Nord. is. RIGURT! Ugh.

Meanwhile, we get the Altmer, and very few of them match their stereotype. It’s almost like the team felt bad that 4E Altmer were …what they were, and desperately tried to overcorrect for ESO.
(Despite this AD still nominally pushing Elven Supremacy, which is not seen anywhere in the AD line…)

Well, part of it is this game went into development prior to the release of Skyrim. The Nords in the base game are closer to how they're portrayed in Oblivion. I feel like we saw more variety for their personality in Greymoor. The Reach also added depth to the Reachman previously missing from Skyrim.

spartaxoxo · November 4

I think it's a good call not including Abnur but Lyris and Sai should definitely be part of things.

Finedaible · November 4

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Interesting is subjective, so all I can say is I find Walks interesting, but not Azah.

I don't care for Azah, and think Walks is fine, but still, for me personally, she isn't exactly a character whom I had wished to learn more about. I'd have been fine with that, sure, but there are characters in the base game that I found much more interesting.

Then again, of course, how much did we learn about them anyway in the new story... It's not much what we got. They all have their own "character type", often something trope-y (the noble, non-violent Argonian; the brash, violence-loving Orc), but what do we learn about them beyond that? They only have their function in the story, and that's it (So, if it's like that, how does it even matter whose face returns to the screen? If it doesn't really have any meaning anyway).

metheglyn wrote: »

But I wouldn't have wanted Abnur, Lyris, and Sai in place of the others. We don't really know Abnur's fate, and to have him show up suddenly would have been jarring and likely not explained very well (going by how they explained Lyris and Sai being around even if they were the ones the player chose to sacrifice). And I thought Lyris and Sai had their own plans.

I wouldn't have wanted to see Lyris and Sai again either (let alone I sacrificed them in some of my playthroughs). They were well-written in the base game story, for what they were supposed to be, then they already had their return in other stories - I'd rather see other characters getting their chance. But exactly the same goes for many of the characters we actually got this year.

As for Abnur, him still being alive is at least a bit more probable, or at least I remember that I found his end in Dragonhold vague enough and couldn't rule out he was using the situation to conveniently disappear. If he'd return, it would need a good explanation and a detailed enough initiation, in a way - just having him appear again for the story and telling everyone he's fine... that clearly doesn't do it for me (also, he would need a believable reason to agree to help us, of course). Even worse of course for characters who are clearly supposed to have died.

I personally could see Abnur Tharn escaping to the Battlespire or somewhere else and laying low while he plans his next move. His whole stated intent during the Elsweyr chapter was to stop the war in Cyrodiil, but things clearly got sidetracked and the war goes on.

Finedaible · November 4

Realistically though, it probably has more to do with contracting the voice actors for Lyris and Sai Sahan, if they were even available. Both actors seem to be involved in a lot more than just ESO.

tsaescishoeshiner · November 4

Draffut wrote: »

So Manimarco and the worm cult are back, it seems like the perfect time to reintroduce our old companions. Why weren’t the included in this event as General leading the charge? I would think they would be concerned with Manimarcos return. Not to mention Molag Bal is just ok with Manimarco escaping and using all of his daedra after the previous events and betrayal.

Let's put it this way. Imagine your dentist's office tries a new and untested procedure and accidentally rips a few of your teeth out and almost kills you. But the team there fixes it all up for you (at great cost and time). After all that, do you want to call that team next time you have a toothache?

Finedaible · November 4

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m sure they’re just shacking up with their new girlfriends in Riften.

Isn’t that how we excuse important characters’ absences now?

Yeah... That particular excuse during High Isle for the absence of the Ebonheart Pact's leader not participating in the peace talks was particularly horriible. Just imagine for a moment the kind of political impression that would have made on the Pact. If I was Emeric or Ayrenn during that situation I would take that as Jorunn having complete disinterest in the peace talks, and it would make Jorunn look bad and self-serving in the eyes of the people he leads. That's just not the kind of thing a leader blows off for a partner. Heck, he could have brought her along to the peace talks if he wanted.

tomofhyrule · November 4

Finedaible wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’m sure they’re just shacking up with their new girlfriends in Riften.

Isn’t that how we excuse important characters’ absences now?

Yeah... That particular excuse during High Isle for the absence of the Ebonheart Pact's leader not participating in the peace talks was particularly horriible. Just imagine for a moment the kind of political impression that would have made on the Pact. If I was Emeric or Ayrenn during that situation I would take that as Jorunn having complete disinterest in the peace talks, and it would make Jorunn look bad and self-serving in the eyes of the people he leads. That's just not the kind of thing a leader blows off for a partner. Heck, he could have brought her along to the peace talks if he wanted.

It’s been years and I’m still not over that.

Seriously. There is an active contagious disease at this time (which is currently on a downtrend, but could have a resurgence), and they didn’t use it?!?

That throwaway excuse alone rocketed High Isle to the top of the “worst story writing ever” list, and that’s even before all of the other idiocy that that story involved.

Honestly, if I were ZOS, I would literally rewrite that part of the story. Irnskar’s VA isn’t a big name like the other leaders, so I’d quite literally rewrite the line and have him rerecord it to get rid of that obscenely stupid plot development.
Especially since the Stirk Fellowship motif book does name Irnskar as the leader of the Pact with no mention of Jorunn at all, so they could totally just have Jorunn catch the Knahaten Flu, have him isolated while he recovers, and have Irnskar lead in his stead, and that’d fill like three plotholes at once.

Syldras · November 4

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It’s been years and I’m still not over that.
Seriously. There is an active contagious disease at this time (which is currently on a downtrend, but could have a resurgence), and they didn’t use it?!?
That throwaway excuse alone rocketed High Isle to the top of the “worst story writing ever” list, and that’s even before all of the other idiocy that that story involved.
Honestly, if I were ZOS, I would literally rewrite that part of the story. Irnskar’s VA isn’t a big name like the other leaders, so I’d quite literally rewrite the line and have him rerecord it to get rid of that obscenely stupid plot development.
Especially since the Stirk Fellowship motif book does name Irnskar as the leader of the Pact with no mention of Jorunn at all, so they could totally just have Jorunn catch the Knahaten Flu, have him isolated while he recovers, and have Irnskar lead in his stead, and that’d fill like three plotholes at once.

It was implausible and lacked seriousness, but I'm wondering whether it was a deliberate decision to fit that year's theme, which seemed to be "obtrusive random flirty stuff screaming at the player in almost every dialogue".

Razmirra · November 5

Abnur Tharn isn't for story (Dragonhold DLC) reasons. Don't know about Sai but have seen Lyris somewhere.

Hapexamendios · November 5

After listening to Sai and Lyris sing, I'd be very happy never seeing them again.

katanagirl1 · November 5

I didn’t think about the original companions not being in this content until it was mentioned in another thread. The original main story was good, the voice actors did a fabulous job. They may not have been available to do another story or maybe they would not have liked the quality of the storytelling now like others have said.

It would have been cool if the Prophet could have appeared and told you about the resurgence of the Worm Cult to start things out and then disappear again.

AllenaNightWood · November 5

We should have seen Lyris and Sai by now because dialogue in western skyrim i think had them going to skingrad but we didnt see them there