Multiclassing was the biggest oof. (edited rant)

Blackyack · October 3

This game objectively sucks right now. I'm sure people will wanna chime in and white knight it, but numbers don't lie. Every major hub is a deadzone no matter when you log in, and at a cursory glance, steam logins haven't been this low since like 2017. I took 6 months off cause I got sick and tired of arcanist everything, and then you go and make literally everyone able to beam.

I'm not gonna blame the raid leads for wanting the best available option, I blame you, ZOS for making there be no other option. "Please have a beam build" is literally everywhere.
Beam sucks. Arcanist sucks. Subclassing sucks. You've made wildly overpowered kits available with no tuning on the other side, or at least, insufficient tuning. Who the hell wants to meta hump the same 8 DDs, pushing the same incredibly powerful, free shield beam that loops with a healing AOE flail? like...what the ***? its so, so boring. There aren't even enough people left to mount a non-beam raid. and before someone chimes in with 'play how you want' it's not just how I want, it's the literal hundreds of thousands of players who have given up on this formerly amazing game entirely.

Now the lore of a class is dead as well. Forget stam/mag hybridization, this is total hybridization. Why even have classes? why have stats? why have gear? If we're all gonna wear the same stat, the same 4 sets, the same spells from the same 3 different lines...like what is going on? did you intend 8 arc trials?

This game had the most flavor, the most cool, accessable gear systems, tons of variety, I felt like I could play it in so many different ways. Endgame was hard, and you earned it. PVP made some kind of sense, and was full of ***. now it makes no sense, and is full of ***. Yes I suck at pvp, and yes I (used to) love doing it.

I guess I'll do some writs or something. Maybe the jokes on us and Housing IS the real endgame.

But I'm not gonna wear a [snip] safe space nuclear deathray beam like a [snip] and then flail when I feel sick. God.

[snip]
[edited for profanity bypass]

fizzybeef · October 3

I was here before this was taken down

PDarkBHood · October 3

Yeah, sounds like a potential rage quit. Dude you need more time off and a cookie. Beam me up Mr. Scott!!

Soarora · October 3

Well, ZOS isn’t going to speedily crash themselves into the void while the game’s making money.

I gave up on trials with subclassing. I have an arc dps, I could still run them as dps, but I’m so over the stress. I’ve found the vast majority of dungeon runs don’t have the problems so common in trials.

Radiate77 · October 3

Valid crashout.

Rohamad_Ali · October 3

Every Sept - Oct numbers go down across the board as school resumes. Every year someone posts it's the end of Elder Scrolls too. Thanks for not letting us down.

Erickson9610 · October 3

In terms of cosmetics and features, there's nothing I want being added to the game. Other games are adding all sorts of cool things, and I'm struggling to give myself a reason to play this game.

Orbital78 · October 3

Soarora wrote: »

Well, ZOS isn’t going to speedily crash themselves into the void while the game’s making money.

I gave up on trials with subclassing. I have an arc dps, I could still run them as dps, but I’m so over the stress. I’ve found the vast majority of dungeon runs don’t have the problems so common in trials.

Ya they have repeatedly gutted my sorc, I can still do 100k+ on my arcanist but it gets boring. I'm sticking to 4man other than motif farming after the 13th or whatever.

AzuraFan · October 3

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Every Sept - Oct numbers go down across the board as school resumes. Every year someone posts it's the end of Elder Scrolls too. Thanks for not letting us down.

Yeah, and numbers will be down in December because of the holidays. They'll be down in April because of exams. They'll be down in June, July, and August because it's summer. There's always some reason the numbers are down.

I don't know if the numbers are down. The hubs I hang out in still seem to be busy, I'm not having problems with long dungeon queues, and I see people out in the world.

I'm just pointing out that whenever someone says, "The numbers are down," someone else always chimes in with, "Yeah, because it's [Christmas/Thanksgiving/summer/back to school/Halloween/the spring solstice/fill in the blank with some other timely excuse].

Rohamad_Ali · October 3

AzuraFan wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Every Sept - Oct numbers go down across the board as school resumes. Every year someone posts it's the end of Elder Scrolls too. Thanks for not letting us down.

Yeah, and numbers will be down in December because of the holidays. They'll be down in April because of exams. They'll be down in June, July, and August because it's summer. There's always some reason the numbers are down.

I don't know if the numbers are down. The hubs I hang out in still seem to be busy, I'm not having problems with long dungeon queues, and I see people out in the world.

I'm just pointing out that whenever someone says, "The numbers are down," someone else always chimes in with, "Yeah, because it's [Christmas/Thanksgiving/summer/back to school/Halloween/the spring solstice/fill in the blank with some other timely excuse].

I understand but the one denominator that stays the same every year is Elder scrolls online does not die despite 10 years of predictions to the contrary.

Erickson9610 · October 3

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Every Sept - Oct numbers go down across the board as school resumes. Every year someone posts it's the end of Elder Scrolls too. Thanks for not letting us down.

Yeah, and numbers will be down in December because of the holidays. They'll be down in April because of exams. They'll be down in June, July, and August because it's summer. There's always some reason the numbers are down.

I don't know if the numbers are down. The hubs I hang out in still seem to be busy, I'm not having problems with long dungeon queues, and I see people out in the world.

I'm just pointing out that whenever someone says, "The numbers are down," someone else always chimes in with, "Yeah, because it's [Christmas/Thanksgiving/summer/back to school/Halloween/the spring solstice/fill in the blank with some other timely excuse].

I understand but the one denominator that stays the same every year is Elder scrolls online does not die despite 10 years of predictions to the contrary.

I'll be playing more when next year's major feature is announced. So far it seems like more of the same to finish off this year. Hopefully that means next year has things to be excited about.

Blackyack · October 3

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Every Sept - Oct numbers go down across the board as school resumes. Every year someone posts it's the end of Elder Scrolls too. Thanks for not letting us down.

idk what to tell you, September year over year is demonstrably at its lowest point since 2017, with no signs of ZOS giving af. and not by like some inscrutable amount, but by 25% since last september.

I'm happy for you if you still like playing this way, genuinely I am. I wouldn't want to take that from anyone, much like I don't appreciate ZOS strangely, in totally unsolicited fashion that idk who asked for, has taken from so, so many people who put alot of time into the game.

Yes, I should have gone with a different thread title.

Radiate77 · October 3

Not a fan of the title change to the thread, Subclassing is not an “oof”… balance is.

Even without Subclassing, all of the problem skill lines are still a problem, you just Scribe away your deficiencies and alt away.

Wup_sa · October 3

No lie was told in that post

cyclonus11 · October 3

CoronHR · October 3

i don't like subclassing or hybridisation either.

but, i'm not sure i hate subclassing. it has allowed me to do better with my main, a magblade, because i'm able to use arcanist skills. i have an arcanist alt, so it's not like i didn't have a powerful option to make up for times when my main couldn't cut it. my main reason for not liking these two features is it erases a lot of variety. which is ironic, because the changes were meant to add variety. but most people, like me, are maximising subclassing so that they have the most powerful build, and that build ends up being the one build that many players gravitate towards. so it's copies and copies of the same build everywhere. there are so many beams in vet trials now.

so subclassing is bittersweet, i guess. it allows some great things, but sacrifices diversification

Pixiepumpkin · October 3

Subclassing drove my wife and I away from ESO. We do miss the game, but when we think of how the identity of our classes was stripped away and how pathetically weak they are without subclassing, it completely turns us off.

And don't let those other posters fool you, the game is down across the board, on every platform and has been shrining since the subclassing update. ZOS would not be sending out community questionairs if the game was in a fine place.

Subclassing has been the most divisive update of any update of any mmorpg I have played since 2005 and the numbers show that players are not happy.

Radiate77 · October 3

Guess it’s time for my weekly re-quote.

People have a habit of accrediting their personal problems with the reason why other people aren’t happy.

Let’s not ignore the fact that this is the lightest content year we’ve had so far, and we’ve had no new systems introduced; as Subclassing is just a remix of pre-existing content. Even the assets for Solstice are primarily reused Summerset and Murkmire structures.

I would be more inclined to believe the population is lower than ever, is more to do with the lack of an ESO Direct like the years prior, and that we’re following up “Spellcrafting” last year with nothing…

kargen27 · October 3

I decided to use an alternate character to level up some lines for subclassing. I picked one that hadn't done any public dungeon quests and then went around doing them. It is rare I go into a public dungeon and don't see at least a couple of other players running around.
Maybe population is down but I'm still seeing quite a few players when I'm out doing my thing. I'm still having fun and it seems so are quite a few other players.
Sorry you are not.

Blackyack · 5:51AM

kargen27 wrote: »

I decided to use an alternate character to level up some lines for subclassing. I picked one that hadn't done any public dungeon quests and then went around doing them. It is rare I go into a public dungeon and don't see at least a couple of other players running around.
Maybe population is down but I'm still seeing quite a few players when I'm out doing my thing. I'm still having fun and it seems so are quite a few other players.
Sorry you are not.

thanks for the sympathy, but your anecdotal evidence is spurious at best. population is way down, off preceding lows. Saying your still enjoying it is fine for you, but its also loaded if your trying to assess statistics and evidence. Of course the people remaining have stayed for their own reasons, and i would never try to take that from you, but you're not who i'm talking about at all. I'm talking about all the people that aren't here anymore, and some of the obvious reasons why.

I don't go into public dungeons for anything really, and while that's cool that is your challenge level, it's not mine, nor the literal legion of people who have left and are phasing out of this game. you can be happy with it, I am not. I've leveled all the lines I want, I have a bazillion hours into this game with 2 or 3 of every class. Gilded sets of everything from meta DD through all the supports. a respectable number of trifectas for my efforts, a few gaps still that I would have liked to check off, but not like this. not at all. and I'm hardly alone, as evidenced by the continual population decline. the endgame is so tweaked right now its ridiculous.

So, again, I'm truly happy for you, but please don't present this situation as fine, and everyone agrees its fine, when its not. the numbers speak volumes. the lack of people complaining isn't a good indication of a problem, but the lack of people at all is.

Blackyack · 6:11AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

Guess it’s time for my weekly re-quote.

People have a habit of accrediting their personal problems with the reason why other people aren’t happy.

Let’s not ignore the fact that this is the lightest content year we’ve had so far, and we’ve had no new systems introduced; as Subclassing is just a remix of pre-existing content. Even the assets for Solstice are primarily reused Summerset and Murkmire structures.

I would be more inclined to believe the population is lower than ever, is more to do with the lack of an ESO Direct like the years prior, and that we’re following up “Spellcrafting” last year with nothing…

ok sure. i can, and have, here, acknowledged that people might want to enjoy this game in different ways. And I also agree with your previous comment about fixing problematic skill lines. the balance is certainly a huge issue.

But i would hardly say subclassing is not a "new system", and it's way more than a simple remix. it's absoultely the biggest power shift in any system we've ever had, bar none, and it has radically changed the face of this game. like, are you saying people left because there wasn't enough new stuff? I'd say making a supertank or a warden/siphon/plar healer is totally new. 175k parses? thats a seismic uptick. these skilline combinations, along with scribed skills have completely reformed how we approach challenges, and I'd argue have really trivialized alot of the challenges that existed in game. Again better balanceing might help, but it won't change that major components of the character of the game is kinda gone forever, and I'm not clear as to why.

And zos has been rehashing assets for years, that's not new to this "season" (another oof) either. how many sench/welwa animals can we possibly ride? Here's another. Did you like that nautical themed zone? here's another.

Whatever, people should do whatever they want with the game, but I wish the game would do a little better by us.

Blackyack · 6:20AM

Radiate77 wrote: »

Valid crashout.

also, preesh.

shadyjane62 · 6:25AM

Eleven years a pure Templar. Don't know if I will last another eleven minutes.

Subclassing without question the worst thing ever to happen to this game. And the laziest.

Udrath · 7:56AM

I agree with you. From a PvP perspective they really did everything they could to make it worse and worse but fix the one thing people wanted which was for them fix the lag. Instead they just piled up mythics, broken sets, new features like hybridisation, scribing, etc with most of them behind pay walls, and ignored the only big complaint. Literally creating problems where there was none, and giving classes huge buffs and nerfs no one asked for every update for years. It’s wild.

Gabriel_H · 8:12AM

Soarora wrote: »

I’ve found the vast majority of dungeon runs don’t have the problems so common in trials.

Raid leads you mean?!

Arcanist sub-classed is by far the biggest damage numbers on a spreadsheet, but that ignores player efficiency - skill, suitability to the playstyle, engagement etc. A player can output better numbers on a different class/sub-class because they gel better with it. Until raid leads stop listening to (shall we say) certain YouTubers the player experience in trials will continue to be being treated like an employee working a job and expected to wear the company uniform.

That is not to say that other classes are wholly competitive, and there is a distinct gap between arcs and others - but fixing that will not change the underlying cause, and players will simply be required to spec the new "meta". PvE though isn't designed around a meta, or score pushing, or the absolute maximum numbers. It's balanced around trifectas which don't actually need those things.

There are dozens if not hundreds of builds that will net a trifecta. Do they require a bit more effort? At present yes, but more effort doesn't necessarily equal less fun and I've found the opposite to often be the case. If RLs are not careful they will find that their employees are going to go on-strike or find a job elsewhere.

(I say this as Raid Lead myself, who is distinctly more relaxed about builds than most I've found, while still maintaining the integrity and inter-competitiveness of the group)

fizzybeef · 9:02AM

Population on PS EU is since years drastical low but we dont have steam charts to prove our points. I feel you buddy

MasterSpatula · 9:17AM

The tone might be a bit much, but I can't argue with any of the points.

Duhne · 10:00AM

What I'm even more sick about is when the previous system gets somewhat fixed and playable (even if not perfect), the new one trash everything again. So we spend most time in a bad state.

The released subclassing system was just a draft.

Stop breaking things so often ZOS, you clearly don't have the ressources to handle it correctly.

And after 10 years, the feeling that ZOS is still wandering what they want todo with this game or going left then right, make me lose trust in the managers making big decisions.

No consitency, no quality (in big new systems), no vision farther than next chapter/season.

Wake up !

redlink1979 · 10:10AM

Blackyack wrote: »

(...) Why even have classes? why have stats? why have gear? If we're all gonna wear the same stat, the same 4 sets, the same spells from the same 3 different lines...like what is going on? (...)

SerafinaWaterstar · 11:55AM

redlink1979 wrote: »

Blackyack wrote: »

(...) Why even have classes? why have stats? why have gear? If we're all gonna wear the same stat, the same 4 sets, the same spells from the same 3 different lines...like what is going on? (...)

Unless you are going for trial trifectas, you really don’t have to use the meta. And as someone posted above, blame the raid leads for slavishly following the meta rather than opening their mind & being more adaptable. (And removing subclassing or whatever else you think is an issue won’t make a difference, as there always has been & always will be the meta. It just how it is. Apparently. Few dare to challenge it.)

In fact, dungeons need slightly different set ups from trials, so following the trial meta is not always best.

I like subclasses, as it gives me a chance to play around. Yes, I have my arc for trials, but I play my other characters in different things.

And just to add that, yet again, I’ve been seeing more old players returning, & players running about all through every zone (PSEU) but I’ve been told that my ‘anecdotal’ observations don’t count - whatever. 🤷🏻‍♀️

karthrag_inak · 12:17PM

Blackyack wrote: »

This game objectively sucks right now.

No U