SOLO players, the recent poll that Zeni made, made me wonder, how do you feel about subclassing?

shadyjane62 · September 27

I despise it.

Vrienda · September 27

I adore it, it makes ESO’s builds feel more like an elder scrolls game but it’s 11 years too late. I’ve done everything except solstice twice over and I have no interest in the content ESO is putting out lately so I’m not really playing anymore. It came just as my interest in this game finally waned.

tomofhyrule · September 27

I feel like this is the crux of the issue.

Solo players - those who are using ESO as their TES6 proxy - are the ones that Subclassing was specifically designed for. Most people who love Subclassing love it for exactly that reason. The problem is that solo players aren't the only ones who play ESO, and Subclassing - at least the way it was implemented - destroyed endgame and balance for group PvErs and PvPers.

The reason it is so favored among soloists though is that the downsides of Subclassing (lack of Class identity, lack of balance) are things that are utterly irrelevant if you're not considering other people. It's very easy to consider a change as either "good" or "bad" when you are the only person you need to ask. The lack of balance in other parts of the game that soloists do not look at are therefore not even a factor in how it feels afterwards.

The reason for having distinct Classes is because it is an MMO at its base level, and that means that the Classes are a way to ensure that one player can'thave everything - that's the design, not a flaw. We can even see that in games like D&D, where the idea is that different characters should have different strengths and weaknesses, which ends up inspiring grouping with people to cover our weaknesses or to make multiple characters to see the world in many different angles. Games like Skyrim that allow you to do anything tend to follow that every player will make one character, stick with them the whole way through, and then not be interested in replaying right away because you did everything the first time. There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

Like most ESO changes, this could have been avoided, or at least the issue minimized, had they spent a bit more time thinking about how changes would affect the whole playerbase and not just one subset of it. They could have put in Subclassing in a way that would allow the solo- and RP-focused players to get the freedom they want (heck, they could have offered even more freedom actually, allowing swapping of all three lines or accepting multiple from the same parent class) without affecting endgame PvE or PvP by:

Spending the time to properly balance the Class lines before merging them all so there is less of a power difference between builds
Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content
Giving bonuses to staying with a pureclass build, or adding some tradeoff penalities to Subclassing to make it an actual build choice instead of just allowing players to stack all strengthsand no weaknesses

What I do not like is the number of soloists who are now coming out of the woodwork to say things like "ESO needs to become more like the solo games! Remove Classes! Make Cyrodiil PvE! Stop making Dungeons! Hide everyone else in the world so I don't have to see other people!" This is a game for all of us, and it is not a good look for one playerbase to specifically desire the others to leave.
...and I get it. I can't wait for TES6 either. But I absolutely do not want ESO to turn into TES6. I want a TES6 with amazing graphics, a deep story with decisions and consequences and choices (I'll admit, BG3 spoiled me horribly for that so I have high expectations for the writing, and ESO's is not cutting it at all), moddability, and a world I can lose myself in for months.

I want ESO for the group content that I can't get from a solo game. That's the big thing that TES6 won't have, and it's a strength that ESO should realize. ESO needs to have an identity apart from TES6, and it really is that ESO has other people around - people to play with or against, and friends who will serve as an anchor to keep us around.
And I want ESO to stay around for a long time. Remember, ESO is a live-service server-based game, which means it's only around as long as Microsoft considers it profitable to keep the servers alive. If ESO pivots too hard to act as a TES6 proxy and drives away the group PvE and PvP playerbases, then who is going to come back to ESO when TES6 does release? Will that be enough people to convince Microsoft to keep it open, or will ESO soon after go the way of Legends...?

Kendaric · September 27

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is the crux of the issue.

Solo players - those who are using ESO as their TES6 proxy - are the ones that Subclassing was specifically designed for. Most people who love Subclassing love it for exactly that reason. The problem is that solo players aren't the only ones who play ESO, and Subclassing - at least the way it was implemented - destroyed endgame and balance for group PvErs and PvPers.

The reason it is so favored among soloists though is that the downsides of Subclassing (lack of Class identity, lack of balance) are things that are utterly irrelevant if you're not considering other people. It's very easy to consider a change as either "good" or "bad" when you are the only person you need to ask. The lack of balance in other parts of the game that soloists do not look at are therefore not even a factor in how it feels afterwards.

The reason for having distinct Classes is because it is an MMO at its base level, and that means that the Classes are a way to ensure that one player can'thave everything - that's the design, not a flaw. We can even see that in games like D&D, where the idea is that different characters should have different strengths and weaknesses, which ends up inspiring grouping with people to cover our weaknesses or to make multiple characters to see the world in many different angles. Games like Skyrim that allow you to do anything tend to follow that every player will make one character, stick with them the whole way through, and then not be interested in replaying right away because you did everything the first time. There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

I disagree, I have 5 or 6 different characters in Skyrim and all were created with a specific theme in mind and stuck with it. I tend to create a character for each of the guilds for example and one for the story. The closest to a stealth archer build I have is my Dawnguard character, as he is based on the Warhammer Fantasy sigmarite witchhunters. But my usual story character, a Nord warrior with greatsword, is barely capable of sneaking past a sleeping guard... and my Breton spellsword isn't any better. On the other hand there's my thief, who can basically sneak in plain sight and remain hidden. He just isn't a great fighter...

Like most ESO changes, this could have been avoided, or at least the issue minimized, had they spent a bit more time thinking about how changes would affect the whole playerbase and not just one subset of it. They could have put in Subclassing in a way that would allow the solo- and RP-focused players to get the freedom they want (heck, they could have offered even more freedom actually, allowing swapping of all three lines or accepting multiple from the same parent class) without affecting endgame PvE or PvP by:
Spending the time to properly balance the Class lines before merging them all so there is less of a power difference between builds

Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Giving bonuses to staying with a pureclass build, or adding some tradeoff penalities to Subclassing to make it an actual build choice instead of just allowing players to stack all strengthsand no weaknesses

Yes, it could have been handled better. But does it really come as a surprise? ESO has a long history of half implemented features, that were never fully thought through.

What I do not like is the number of soloists who are now coming out of the woodwork to say things like "ESO needs to become more like the solo games! Remove Classes! Make Cyrodiil PvE! Stop making Dungeons! Hide everyone else in the world so I don't have to see other people!" This is a game for all of us, and it is not a good look for one playerbase to specifically desire the others to leave.

Many of us solo players have always advocated for either a less restrictive class system or the abolishment of classes altogether. It's not a new development.
Also class identity didn't ever really exist, I've been playing without class skills since the beta. You couldn't tell what classes any of my characters belonged to, with the exception of my Dunmer mage due to his pets and a few of my wardens because of the bear.

I want ESO for the group content that I can't get from a solo game. That's the big thing that TES6 won't have, and it's a strength that ESO should realize. ESO needs to have an identity apart from TES6, and it really is that ESO has other people around - people to play with or against, and friends who will serve as an anchor to keep us around.
And I want ESO to stay around for a long time. Remember, ESO is a live-service server-based game, which means it's only around as long as Microsoft considers it profitable to keep the servers alive. If ESO pivots too hard to act as a TES6 proxy and drives away the group PvE and PvP playerbases, then who is going to come back to ESO when TES6 does release? Will that be enough people to convince Microsoft to keep it open, or will ESO soon after go the way of Legends...?

We don't know whether it will be singleplayer only like previous TES games or if it's going to have multiplayer.

Gabriel_H · September 27

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And it's not to the pve player's detriment.

It is at group PvE end-game, where build requirements are enforced.

ZOS gave solo players and low-end content players 10,000 builds, when they already had 2,000 builds; and in the process took the number of high-end content builds from 3/4 (already too little) per role to 1 per role.

AzuraFan · September 27

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

LootAllTheStuff · September 27

As a PvE mostly solo player, I have mixed feelings about it. I haven't even started the quest for it on any of my characters that are eligible, because I like the idea of their pure class in the first place, and there are plenty of other skill lines (gear, armour, guilds) to mix things up as needed.

I have one character who's still too low level and they are one I *might* try subclassing on for no other reason than after starting them off on a particular path as an Arcanist I decided to have them join the Thieve's Guild, and there is no way to change class outside of sub-classing. So I can see the appeal from that point of view.

My concern is that so many are running one of the two meta builds that dramatically out-perform pretty much everything. Besides barely being able to get a hit in on world and delve bosses unless I'm there first, I have a nagging unease that the overland difficulty change will be implemented essentially based on the idea of everyone sub-classing and being biased towards the power level of the current meta. That would leave a LOT of currently working builds utterly bust. I really hope I'm wrong about this, and the developers take a more nuanced approach to any changes; I guess we'll see, but if pure class builds cease to be viable, I'm probably out.

GloatingSwine · September 27

Subclassing is what it is. It exists so I'm going to get as much out of it as I can.

For everyone except DPS it's a nice optimisation puzzle to figure out where to get the best mix of all the things you need whether that's for sweaty solo, overland, or a support character.

It does, however, mean a lot of class lines are dead. In order to get any play now a class line either has to be unambiguously the best at something or it needs to have something on it no other line has. And not every line can be the best or has anything unique on.

Radiate77 · September 27

Pepegrillos wrote: »

There might be a survivorship bias. Most people sticking with the game seem to like it. At the same time, player population is at its lowest point in 8 years. Those who left or didn't come back might not like it that much.

People have a habit of accrediting their personal problems with the reason why other people aren’t happy.

Let’s not ignore the fact that this is lightest content year we’ve had so far, and we’ve had no new systems introduced; as Subclassing is just a remix of pre-existing content. Even the assets for Solstice are primarily reused Summerset and Murkmire structures.

I would be more inclined to believe the population is lower than ever, is more to do with the lack of an ESO Direct like the years prior, and that we’re following up “Spellcrafting” last year with nothing…

ESO_player123 · September 27

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

I'm sorry, but no. I do PUGs for normal dungeons and trials and I do not use the beam. If I have to switch builds every time before queueing then I request a free armory assistant and free armory slots. I do not want to be denied the feature of the game while waiting for the queue to pop.

If the beam is unbalanced, then I would advocate for making changes to it instead of prohibiting the whole feature.

Vulkunne · September 27

Having finally found the time to work with subclassing, I'm finding more practical applications for it instead of it being like a wish list for everything I thought might look cool, but turns out isn't practical lol.

Even upgraded my DK somewhat, however I still keep a regular DK build as both are useful. So actually yeah, I am liking subclass. But still something to be said for regular class builds.

Horace-Wimp · September 27

I do not have enough Skill Points or Champion Points to bother with Subclassing so I skip it altogether. Maybe in a few years when I have no more game to play, have hit the CP cap and am bored I'll give it a go...maybe. /shrug

Dax_Draconis · September 27

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

But that's always been an issue even before subclassing. I have been in many dungeons, before subclassing, where I could pretty much just stand there because someone was killing everything easily.

ESO_player123 · September 27

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

But that's always been an issue even before subclassing. I have been in many dungeons, before subclassing, where I could pretty much just stand there because someone was killing everything easily.

Agree. Melting everything in normal dungeons has been a thing for a long time.

katanagirl1 · September 28

Of course solo players for the most part are going to love subclassing. Do whatever you want. More options regardless of how effective they are. Questing and overland does not require a high dps build.

Those who also do high end PvE might not agree, like me. Some of us like class identity.

Question needs more context.

Zodiarkslayer · September 28

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And it's not to the pve player's detriment.

It is at group PvE end-game, where build requirements are enforced.

I understand that, partially agree, but would like to give some additional food for thought.

Generally speaking, if someone is only feeling forced to do something (i.e. to comply), contrary to actually being forced (for example by threat of physical punishment), then there is a difference in agency of the individual. A person who only feels forced has the opportunity to not comply, to walk away or to simply approach things differently, contrary to having no choice.
If any individual pre-emptively complies with an expectation in fear of being ostricized or cancelled from the group, what does this say about that one individual? And what about the respective group?

The choices we make define the kind of person that we are. And let's not pretend that PvE endgamers do not have other choices. Has the absolute top become narrower? Yes, but there are more choices available than ever before. The (ironically double edged meaning incoming:) "subMETA" builds - i.e. the builds that are just below META performance, but still capable of achieving the highest goals in game - have become much more numerous and even perform better than before.

@Gabriel_H You alluded to this yourself:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ZOS gave solo players and low-end content players 10,000 builds, when they already had 2,000 builds; and in the process took the number of high-end content builds from 3/4 (already too little) per role to 1 per role.

I think it is an incomlete picture, that you paint here. You leave out 5+ builds, that are able to compete as well. I'd say there are nine to ten DPS skill lines right now. 2 are S-Tier and 7/8 are A-Tier. And I'd argue that any combination of one S-tier and two A-tiers can compete to achieve Hard Modes.
I would also argue that the range of choices for Tanks and especially Healers is also much broader now. It is a completely different type of engagement with the game.
And that is all thanks to subclassing.

There is one caveat that I wish to make: If one's goal is to be the best on the scoresheets, one has to use the META builds. That's obvious. But that also means that the "force to comply with META" is exercised by oneself. It originates from one's need for excellence, not some game design choice by ZOS.

noblecron · September 28

I like it. I got rid of daedra and dark magic on one of my sorcs. BUT, I do wish it was adjusted so that someone who doesn't want to use subclassing can still be viable for content. It'd also be nice if there was some more build diversity because as of now everyone is running arcanist and nightblade for subclassing dps at least

colossalvoids · September 28

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And it's not to the pve player's detriment.

It is at group PvE end-game, where build requirements are enforced.

I understand that, partially agree, but would like to give some additional food for thought.

Generally speaking, if someone is only feeling forced to do something (i.e. to comply), contrary to actually being forced (for example by threat of physical punishment), then there is a difference in agency of the individual. A person who only feels forced has the opportunity to not comply, to walk away or to simply approach things differently, contrary to having no choice.
If any individual pre-emptively complies with an expectation in fear of being ostricized or cancelled from the group, what does this say about that one individual? And what about the respective group?

The choices we make define the kind of person that we are. And let's not pretend that PvE endgamers do not have other choices. Has the absolute top become narrower? Yes, but there are more choices available than ever before. The (ironically double edged meaning incoming:) "subMETA" builds - i.e. the builds that are just below META performance, but still capable of achieving the highest goals in game - have become much more numerous and even perform better than before.

@Gabriel_H You alluded to this yourself:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ZOS gave solo players and low-end content players 10,000 builds, when they already had 2,000 builds; and in the process took the number of high-end content builds from 3/4 (already too little) per role to 1 per role.

I think it is an incomlete picture, that you paint here. You leave out 5+ builds, that are able to compete as well. I'd say there are nine to ten DPS skill lines right now. 2 are S-Tier and 7/8 are A-Tier. And I'd argue that any combination of one S-tier and two A-tiers can compete to achieve Hard Modes.
I would also argue that the range of choices for Tanks and especially Healers is also much broader now. It is a completely different type of engagement with the game.
And that is all thanks to subclassing.

There is one caveat that I wish to make: If one's goal is to be the best on the scoresheets, one has to use the META builds. That's obvious. But that also means that the "force to comply with META" is exercised by oneself. It originates from one's need for excellence, not some game design choice by ZOS.

We all play the same game but we do so weary differently overall. Completion or being able to clear, achieve something might not be the category players are taking about here versus more casual players and developers who do think through that prism generally. Thing as skill expression for a dd comes to mind first for me personally, even in a very strict meta times being forced into one, generally narrow direction wasn't generally perceived as an inherently bad thing, because the class synergies with others, your personal skill, ability to execute specific combos, hold on to your proc or ultimate for a specific moment and other factors were good enough to produce specific sort of fun and engagement lost nowadays completely. It's factor upon factor since years already: class changes, balance decisions, homogenisation, content types and changes within those, multi-classing etc. You still had options back then, I'd even say more completely viable options overall rather than having some slightly different builds utterly underperforming comparatively to the top ones of current time. The gear/player skill balance also hit the unlikeable spot for many, as for the longest time the main difference was always a player skill, not a setup you're running.

If someone operates on a different premise it makes things not about subjective feelings (those are also a thing and do matter, hugely so) but an objective reality of competitive / optimised play. You do not intentionally un-optimise there, knowingly making overall experience for other players around worse in a process. It's going a bit against the whole idea.

Sets, skills, classes it's all a double edged thing that can bring on more options on a surface level, simply on arithmetical level but can narrow things down, diluting the poll of options if done poorly. Forced isn't a right word here i'd say but people do feel that way nevertheless.

Anumaril · September 28

Good start, but feels too restrictive
As a solo player, generally I approve of Subclassing as a concept. It always felt odd and unnecessarily restrictive for an Elder Scrolls game to not let you play like an Elder Scrolls game: classlessly (I know Oblivion had "classes", but they were moreso archetypes, not MMO-style classes).

But the way Subclassing is implemented feels suffocating. You have to give up a class skill line to take a new one, which means possibly giving up a swath of regular abilities you use just for the sake of getting maybe one or two you wanted from a new skill line. And you can also only take 1 skill line from another class, not two at a time.

Example
I main a Necromancer and since the necromancer fantasy is basically non-existent in this game I thought to manually create something close to it by borrowing one or two skills from Sorcerer, specifically the Dark Bargain skill from Dark Magic (which feels very sacrificial and on-theme for a necromancer to use), and the Unstable Familiar skill from Daedric Summoning (just to have a vaguely-magical permanent minion). Except not only could I NOT make this combo because it's using two skill lines from a single class, I had to GIVE UP skill lines from my base class, making me feel even LESS like a necromancer than I already did.

This was unacceptable for me because each necro skill line each had approximately 1 ability that genuinely felt necromancer-y. That being: Skeletal Mage from Grave Lord (the only real undead minion we get), Bitter Harvest from Bone Tyrant (sucking the souls from corpses to heal yourself is one of the most necromancer-y things you can do), and Animate Blastbones from Living Death (the ONLY necro ability that lets you raise skeletons from corpses, and consequently the ONLY necro ability that makes me feel like an actual necromancer, not just a dark wizard). To give any of these up would seriously damage what fragile class identity Necromancer even had left.

_____________________________________
Side issue: clunkiness
Another issue with how it's implemented is that, because they were seemingly too afraid to implement a truly classless system, you're now have to switch skill lines back and forth whenever you want to change builds. Sure, you can save your skill lines using the build station in your player house, but that forces you to go all the way back to your player home just to swap builds (good luck doing that mid-dungeon or in the middle of a gripping quest). Not only is that annoying, it also means that if you made any progress/character advancement in one build (e.g., through Champion Points, Skill Points, Attribute Points, etc), you've now got to manually re-assign ALL of it when you switch to a new build.

Example
As a solo player I've got 3 builds I cycle between for world content or questing: necromancer, assassin/rogue, and warrior/knight. In the past I could just use an addon to swap between these builds on the fly, allowing the saved builds in my build station furnishing to just be three: world content, PvP, and PvE. But now, if I'm in the middle of a quest and I'm in more of an assassin mood, or maybe I come across a random quest which would be PERFECT to play as a stealthy assassin, I need to interrupt the flow of gameplay to go all the way back to my house and equip my assassin build, spend 10 minutes re-allocating all the points I unlocked with the other build, all the while double-checking (or even writing on a little notepad) how many CP points should be put into which stars so it's consistent, etc.

There's no reason that Subclassing, something meant to free you from the burdens of the class system, should make gameplay feel MORE burdensome.

_____________________________________
Overall, I'd give Subclassing a 6/10. I appreciate the effort (especially since I've been advocating for classlessness for years), but ZOS' fear of angering their playerbase by going FULL classless — like regular Elder Scrolls titles — just created a Frankenstein's Monster trying to balance the two which feels neither satisfying nor smooth.

JeroenB · September 28

There are many different kinds of "solo player". Personally, I am utterly indifferent to subclassing, because it just adds complexity to a part of the game that I already do not enjoy: the 'gearing up' of my characters to be vaguely combat-competent. I went through the slog for one character a few years ago, with whom I can now solo some base game dungeons and world bosses. That gearing-up experience completely put me off ever trying to bring any of my other characters up to a similar (still very low) combat level.

AzuraFan · September 28

ESO_player123 wrote: »

If the beam is unbalanced, then I would advocate for making changes to it instead of prohibiting the whole feature.

Well, yes, ideally ZOS will somehow balance the mess. But we know their track record on balancing, so...

My suggestion was somewhat tongue in cheek. It would be really inconvenient if builds were automatically switching between pure/subclassed. But what we have now is equally ludicrous.

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

But that's always been an issue even before subclassing. I have been in many dungeons, before subclassing, where I could pretty much just stand there because someone was killing everything easily.

Really? Maybe in vet? I play normal dungeons only. There was the rare time when there was a group member who obviously had really high DPS and things went down quicker, but not as fast as they do now. I'm talking less than 10 seconds for end-dungeon bosses (including DLC if there isn't a bunch of "let's artificially stretch out this fight" mechanics). And if there's more than one in the group with beam, you might as well just read a book until "Activity Complete." There's definitely been a noticeable change, at least with pugs and normal dungeons.

I did Volenfell with a pug this morning. There were two group members with beam. The 3 bosses at the end? Less than 5 seconds. I got 2 hits in. Might as well not have been there. That's how fast stuff is going down. That didn't use to be the case, at least with the typical pugs I was running with before subclassing. Unfortunately because beam is the current easy mode, a lot of people are running it.

For solo activities like overland and such, subclassing isn't a problem in terms of fun, but it destroyed class identity. For groups, it's ruined the fun. Can't speak to PvP because I don't do that.

Hygiliack · September 28

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Of course solo players for the most part are going to love subclassing. Do whatever you want. More options regardless of how effective they are. Questing and overland does not require a high dps build.

Those who also do high end PvE might not agree, like me. Some of us like class identity.

Question needs more context.

You probably ask for more context if someone asks you for a glass of water "I need more context, soda? Sparkling water? Wine?"... The question clearly states SOLO PLAYERS, what more context do you need?

Gabriel_H · September 28

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And it's not to the pve player's detriment.

It is at group PvE end-game, where build requirements are enforced.

I understand that, partially agree, but would like to give some additional food for thought.

Generally speaking, if someone is only feeling forced to do something (i.e. to comply), contrary to actually being forced (for example by threat of physical punishment), then there is a difference in agency of the individual. A person who only feels forced has the opportunity to not comply, to walk away or to simply approach things differently, contrary to having no choice.
If any individual pre-emptively complies with an expectation in fear of being ostricized or cancelled from the group, what does this say about that one individual? And what about the respective group?

The choices we make define the kind of person that we are. And let's not pretend that PvE endgamers do not have other choices. Has the absolute top become narrower? Yes, but there are more choices available than ever before. The (ironically double edged meaning incoming:) "subMETA" builds - i.e. the builds that are just below META performance, but still capable of achieving the highest goals in game - have become much more numerous and even perform better than before.

@Gabriel_H You alluded to this yourself:

Gabriel_H wrote: »

ZOS gave solo players and low-end content players 10,000 builds, when they already had 2,000 builds; and in the process took the number of high-end content builds from 3/4 (already too little) per role to 1 per role.

I think it is an incomlete picture, that you paint here. You leave out 5+ builds, that are able to compete as well. I'd say there are nine to ten DPS skill lines right now. 2 are S-Tier and 7/8 are A-Tier. And I'd argue that any combination of one S-tier and two A-tiers can compete to achieve Hard Modes.
I would also argue that the range of choices for Tanks and especially Healers is also much broader now. It is a completely different type of engagement with the game.
And that is all thanks to subclassing.

There is one caveat that I wish to make: If one's goal is to be the best on the scoresheets, one has to use the META builds. That's obvious. But that also means that the "force to comply with META" is exercised by oneself. It originates from one's need for excellence, not some game design choice by ZOS.

I play very much non-meta. I have no issues clearing content. I do have issues getting into most (not all) high-end trial guilds - that is a consequence of ZOS' design that fails to account for MMO player behaviour.

katanagirl1 · September 28

Hygiliack wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Of course solo players for the most part are going to love subclassing. Do whatever you want. More options regardless of how effective they are. Questing and overland does not require a high dps build.

Those who also do high end PvE might not agree, like me. Some of us like class identity.

Question needs more context.

You probably ask for more context if someone asks you for a glass of water "I need more context, soda? Sparkling water? Wine?"... The question clearly states SOLO PLAYERS, what more context do you need?

Yeah not my best post for a late night attempt, but I was thinking more along the lines that I am a solo player all the time except when I queue up for end game activities, so I don’t just fit into one category. Perhaps others are like me.

Mik195 · September 28

I like it. It lets me get familiar with other class skills without having to create and level a whole new character.

Kendaric · September 28

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Yeah not my best post for a late night attempt, but I was thinking more along the lines that I am a solo player all the time except when I queue up for end game activities, so I don’t just fit into one category. Perhaps others are like me.

Well, most solo players join groups occasionally ... even I do it sometimes and I absolutely hate grouping. While I definitely stay away from endgame stuff, I do group for world bosses or the DLC invasion events like Harrowstorms or the mosaics in West Weald.
If I'd ever enter a dungeon that's more difficult than FG 1 or Spindleclutch 1, it would be in a guild group. PUGs are a plague that's best avoided.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I play very much non-meta. I have no issues clearing content. I do have issues getting into most (not all) high-end trial guilds - that is a consequence of ZOS' design that fails to account for MMO player behaviour.

That's on the players though, not really on ZOS. And the possibility to either form your own group and guild always exists...

tomofhyrule · September 28

Kendaric wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I play very much non-meta. I have no issues clearing content. I do have issues getting into most (not all) high-end trial guilds - that is a consequence of ZOS' design that fails to account for MMO player behaviour.

That's on the players though, not really on ZOS. And the possibility to either form your own group and guild always exists...

Again, that's true to a point. But what we have right now is past that point.

Example 1: You and three friends are going to run a relay race. The race organizer allows you to choose your shoes from a list of adidas running shoes, [a brand with a swoosh] running shoes, and Puma running shoes. Your friends all take adidas shoes, and you chose [the brand with the swoosh]. They argue that you should leave because you are not picking the right shoes. You argue that you should be able to pick whatever you want.
That's an example of the group being toxic, since there's not much difference and you can perform just as well either way.

Example 2: You and three friends are going to run a relay race. The race organizer allows you to choose your shoes from a list of adidas running shoes, Louboutin stiletto heels, and ballet pointe shoes. Your friends all take adidas shoes, and you chose the Louboutins. They argue that you should leave because you are not picking the right shoes. You argue that you should be able to pick whatever you want.
That's an example of the race organizer giving a poorly balanced set of choices and you being toxic for petulantly picking something ineffective for the task at hand in spite of your group.

ESO's current balance is closer to Example 2 than Example 1. We have one setup that is leagues ahead of others, and deliberately choosing not to run at your peak efficiency is quite literally griefing your group.

Kendaric · September 28

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I play very much non-meta. I have no issues clearing content. I do have issues getting into most (not all) high-end trial guilds - that is a consequence of ZOS' design that fails to account for MMO player behaviour.

That's on the players though, not really on ZOS. And the possibility to either form your own group and guild always exists...

Again, that's true to a point. But what we have right now is past that point.

Example 1: You and three friends are going to run a relay race. The race organizer allows you to choose your shoes from a list of adidas running shoes, [a brand with a swoosh] running shoes, and Puma running shoes. Your friends all take adidas shoes, and you chose [the brand with the swoosh]. They argue that you should leave because you are not picking the right shoes. You argue that you should be able to pick whatever you want.
That's an example of the group being toxic, since there's not much difference and you can perform just as well either way.

Example 2: You and three friends are going to run a relay race. The race organizer allows you to choose your shoes from a list of adidas running shoes, Louboutin stiletto heels, and ballet pointe shoes. Your friends all take adidas shoes, and you chose the Louboutins. They argue that you should leave because you are not picking the right shoes. You argue that you should be able to pick whatever you want.
That's an example of the race organizer giving a poorly balanced set of choices and you being toxic for petulantly picking something ineffective for the task at hand in spite of your group.

ESO's current balance is closer to Example 2 than Example 1. We have one setup that is leagues ahead of others, and deliberately choosing not to run at your peak efficiency is quite literally griefing your group.

Yes, it should have been more balanced as I've said multiple times myself. And considering how well arcanist performed even before subclassing, I'm going to assume arcanist (not only the beam) is the main problem. It's not even necessary to perfectly balance things which would be impossible anyway.

But asking to rollback subclassing is just wrong and would drive a lot of players away.

JeroenB · September 28

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[Relay race examples snipped for legibility]

On the one hand I think this is a very good example. On the other hand it only works in the context of a competitive race where everyone's objective is to get first place or as close as possible to it. If some participants don't view the relay race as taking place at the Olympics but at a village fair where people's primary objective is to have fun, then taking part in high heels might actually be the better choice. Lots of people take part in the London Marathon in fancy dress; obviously they don't expect to win the event while wearing a gorilla costume or whatever. Their goals is something other than pure efficiency. And ESO is ultimately nothing more than a game we play for fun.

To add, your argument stands that ZOS should make it possible to have a competitive race with different shoes, but equally we as a community should not lambast people for wanting to also have fun races.

tomofhyrule · September 28

JeroenB wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[Relay race examples snipped for legibility]

On the one hand I think this is a very good example. On the other hand it only works in the context of a competitive race where everyone's objective is to get first place or as close as possible to it. If some participants don't view the relay race as taking place at the Olympics but at a village fair where people's primary objective is to have fun, then taking part in high heels might actually be the better choice. Lots of people take part in the London Marathon in fancy dress; obviously they don't expect to win the event while wearing a gorilla costume or whatever. Their goals is something other than pure efficiency. And ESO is ultimately nothing more than a game we play for fun.

To add, your argument stands that ZOS should make it possible to have a competitive race with different shoes, but equally we as a community should not lambast people for wanting to also have fun races.

I’m not saying that fun runs should be outlawed though. We used to do all [Class] runs all the time in my guild, and tbh one of my favorite traditions (that I’m very excited for) is our standard Halloween “all werewolf trial.”

But here’s the difference: we post to the guild “this is a [THEME] run! Come have fun!”
We don’t join a group of randos in the group finder and say “we’re doing a fun run, so deal with us as we are or you’re toxic.”

Group finder runs have a place to say what type of run it is, so if we’re admitting that fun runs have a place, we need to also admit that a group finder run listed with expectations is not being toxic and exclusionary.

In essence, it’s like the dungeon speedrun argument - nobody has an issue with the group who wants to finish FG1 in two minutes flat or the group that will spend 45 minutes in FG1 inspecting every single flower. The problem is when somebody in one group joins a group and expects the randoms to bend to their playstyle without considering what they might want.

But for doing trial HMs post Kyne’s, there really is a lot less patience for “less-optimal setups,” which because of the balance currently means “anything that’s not the three meta skill lines.”