SOLO players, the recent poll that Zeni made, made me wonder, how do you feel about subclassing?

shadyjane62

I despise it.

Vrienda

I adore it, it makes ESO’s builds feel more like an elder scrolls game but it’s 11 years too late. I’ve done everything except solstice twice over and I have no interest in the content ESO is putting out lately so I’m not really playing anymore. It came just as my interest in this game finally waned.

tomofhyrule

I feel like this is the crux of the issue.

Solo players - those who are using ESO as their TES6 proxy - are the ones that Subclassing was specifically designed for. Most people who love Subclassing love it for exactly that reason. The problem is that solo players aren't the only ones who play ESO, and Subclassing - at least the way it was implemented - destroyed endgame and balance for group PvErs and PvPers.

The reason it is so favored among soloists though is that the downsides of Subclassing (lack of Class identity, lack of balance) are things that are utterly irrelevant if you're not considering other people. It's very easy to consider a change as either "good" or "bad" when you are the only person you need to ask. The lack of balance in other parts of the game that soloists do not look at are therefore not even a factor in how it feels afterwards.

The reason for having distinct Classes is because it is an MMO at its base level, and that means that the Classes are a way to ensure that one player can'thave everything - that's the design, not a flaw. We can even see that in games like D&D, where the idea is that different characters should have different strengths and weaknesses, which ends up inspiring grouping with people to cover our weaknesses or to make multiple characters to see the world in many different angles. Games like Skyrim that allow you to do anything tend to follow that every player will make one character, stick with them the whole way through, and then not be interested in replaying right away because you did everything the first time. There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

Like most ESO changes, this could have been avoided, or at least the issue minimized, had they spent a bit more time thinking about how changes would affect the whole playerbase and not just one subset of it. They could have put in Subclassing in a way that would allow the solo- and RP-focused players to get the freedom they want (heck, they could have offered even more freedom actually, allowing swapping of all three lines or accepting multiple from the same parent class) without affecting endgame PvE or PvP by:

• Spending the time to properly balance the Class lines before merging them all so there is less of a power difference between builds
• Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content
• Giving bonuses to staying with a pureclass build, or adding some tradeoff penalities to Subclassing to make it an actual build choice instead of just allowing players to stack all strengthsand no weaknesses

What I do not like is the number of soloists who are now coming out of the woodwork to say things like "ESO needs to become more like the solo games! Remove Classes! Make Cyrodiil PvE! Stop making Dungeons! Hide everyone else in the world so I don't have to see other people!" This is a game for all of us, and it is not a good look for one playerbase to specifically desire the others to leave.
...and I get it. I can't wait for TES6 either. But I absolutely do not want ESO to turn into TES6. I want a TES6 with amazing graphics, a deep story with decisions and consequences and choices (I'll admit, BG3 spoiled me horribly for that so I have high expectations for the writing, and ESO's is not cutting it at all), moddability, and a world I can lose myself in for months.

I want ESO for the group content that I can't get from a solo game. That's the big thing that TES6 won't have, and it's a strength that ESO should realize. ESO needs to have an identity apart from TES6, and it really is that ESO has other people around - people to play with or against, and friends who will serve as an anchor to keep us around.
And I want ESO to stay around for a long time. Remember, ESO is a live-service server-based game, which means it's only around as long as Microsoft considers it profitable to keep the servers alive. If ESO pivots too hard to act as a TES6 proxy and drives away the group PvE and PvP playerbases, then who is going to come back to ESO when TES6 does release? Will that be enough people to convince Microsoft to keep it open, or will ESO soon after go the way of Legends...?

Kendaric

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like this is the crux of the issue.

Solo players - those who are using ESO as their TES6 proxy - are the ones that Subclassing was specifically designed for. Most people who love Subclassing love it for exactly that reason. The problem is that solo players aren't the only ones who play ESO, and Subclassing - at least the way it was implemented - destroyed endgame and balance for group PvErs and PvPers.

The reason it is so favored among soloists though is that the downsides of Subclassing (lack of Class identity, lack of balance) are things that are utterly irrelevant if you're not considering other people. It's very easy to consider a change as either "good" or "bad" when you are the only person you need to ask. The lack of balance in other parts of the game that soloists do not look at are therefore not even a factor in how it feels afterwards.

The reason for having distinct Classes is because it is an MMO at its base level, and that means that the Classes are a way to ensure that one player can'thave everything - that's the design, not a flaw. We can even see that in games like D&D, where the idea is that different characters should have different strengths and weaknesses, which ends up inspiring grouping with people to cover our weaknesses or to make multiple characters to see the world in many different angles. Games like Skyrim that allow you to do anything tend to follow that every player will make one character, stick with them the whole way through, and then not be interested in replaying right away because you did everything the first time. There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

I disagree, I have 5 or 6 different characters in Skyrim and all were created with a specific theme in mind and stuck with it. I tend to create a character for each of the guilds for example and one for the story. The closest to a stealth archer build I have is my Dawnguard character, as he is based on the Warhammer Fantasy sigmarite witchhunters. But my usual story character, a Nord warrior with greatsword, is barely capable of sneaking past a sleeping guard... and my Breton spellsword isn't any better. On the other hand there's my thief, who can basically sneak in plain sight and remain hidden. He just isn't a great fighter...

Like most ESO changes, this could have been avoided, or at least the issue minimized, had they spent a bit more time thinking about how changes would affect the whole playerbase and not just one subset of it. They could have put in Subclassing in a way that would allow the solo- and RP-focused players to get the freedom they want (heck, they could have offered even more freedom actually, allowing swapping of all three lines or accepting multiple from the same parent class) without affecting endgame PvE or PvP by:

• Spending the time to properly balance the Class lines before merging them all so there is less of a power difference between builds
• Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content
• Giving bonuses to staying with a pureclass build, or adding some tradeoff penalities to Subclassing to make it an actual build choice instead of just allowing players to stack all strengthsand no weaknesses

Yes, it could have been handled better. But does it really come as a surprise? ESO has a long history of half implemented features, that were never fully thought through.

What I do not like is the number of soloists who are now coming out of the woodwork to say things like "ESO needs to become more like the solo games! Remove Classes! Make Cyrodiil PvE! Stop making Dungeons! Hide everyone else in the world so I don't have to see other people!" This is a game for all of us, and it is not a good look for one playerbase to specifically desire the others to leave.

Many of us solo players have always advocated for either a less restrictive class system or the abolishment of classes altogether. It's not a new development.
Also class identity didn't ever really exist, I've been playing without class skills since the beta. You couldn't tell what classes any of my characters belonged to, with the exception of my Dunmer mage due to his pets and a few of my wardens because of the bear.

I want ESO for the group content that I can't get from a solo game. That's the big thing that TES6 won't have, and it's a strength that ESO should realize. ESO needs to have an identity apart from TES6, and it really is that ESO has other people around - people to play with or against, and friends who will serve as an anchor to keep us around.
And I want ESO to stay around for a long time. Remember, ESO is a live-service server-based game, which means it's only around as long as Microsoft considers it profitable to keep the servers alive. If ESO pivots too hard to act as a TES6 proxy and drives away the group PvE and PvP playerbases, then who is going to come back to ESO when TES6 does release? Will that be enough people to convince Microsoft to keep it open, or will ESO soon after go the way of Legends...?

We don't know whether it will be singleplayer only like previous TES games or if it's going to have multiplayer.

Gabriel_H

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

And it's not to the pve player's detriment.

It is at group PvE end-game, where build requirements are enforced.

ZOS gave solo players and low-end content players 10,000 builds, when they already had 2,000 builds; and in the process took the number of high-end content builds from 3/4 (already too little) per role to 1 per role.

AzuraFan

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

LootAllTheStuff

As a PvE mostly solo player, I have mixed feelings about it. I haven't even started the quest for it on any of my characters that are eligible, because I like the idea of their pure class in the first place, and there are plenty of other skill lines (gear, armour, guilds) to mix things up as needed.

I have one character who's still too low level and they are one I *might* try subclassing on for no other reason than after starting them off on a particular path as an Arcanist I decided to have them join the Thieve's Guild, and there is no way to change class outside of sub-classing. So I can see the appeal from that point of view.

My concern is that so many are running one of the two meta builds that dramatically out-perform pretty much everything. Besides barely being able to get a hit in on world and delve bosses unless I'm there first, I have a nagging unease that the overland difficulty change will be implemented essentially based on the idea of everyone sub-classing and being biased towards the power level of the current meta. That would leave a LOT of currently working builds utterly bust. I really hope I'm wrong about this, and the developers take a more nuanced approach to any changes; I guess we'll see, but if pure class builds cease to be viable, I'm probably out.

GloatingSwine

Subclassing is what it is. It exists so I'm going to get as much out of it as I can.

For everyone except DPS it's a nice optimisation puzzle to figure out where to get the best mix of all the things you need whether that's for sweaty solo, overland, or a support character.

It does, however, mean a lot of class lines are dead. In order to get any play now a class line either has to be unambiguously the best at something or it needs to have something on it no other line has. And not every line can be the best or has anything unique on.

Radiate77

Pepegrillos wrote: »

There might be a survivorship bias. Most people sticking with the game seem to like it. At the same time, player population is at its lowest point in 8 years. Those who left or didn't come back might not like it that much.

People have a habit of accrediting their personal problems with the reason why other people aren’t happy.

Let’s not ignore the fact that this is lightest content year we’ve had so far, and we’ve had no new systems introduced; as Subclassing is just a remix of pre-existing content. Even the assets for Solstice are primarily reused Summerset and Murkmire structures.

I would be more inclined to believe the population is lower than ever, is more to do with the lack of an ESO Direct like the years prior, and that we’re following up “Spellcrafting” last year with nothing…

ESO_player123

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

I'm sorry, but no. I do PUGs for normal dungeons and trials and I do not use the beam. If I have to switch builds every time before queueing then I request a free armory assistant and free armory slots. I do not want to be denied the feature of the game while waiting for the queue to pop.

If the beam is unbalanced, then I would advocate for making changes to it instead of prohibiting the whole feature.

Vulkunne

Having finally found the time to work with subclassing, I'm finding more practical applications for it instead of it being like a wish list for everything I thought might look cool, but turns out isn't practical lol.

Even upgraded my DK somewhat, however I still keep a regular DK build as both are useful. So actually yeah, I am liking subclass. But still something to be said for regular class builds.

Horace-Wimp

I do not have enough Skill Points or Champion Points to bother with Subclassing so I skip it altogether. Maybe in a few years when I have no more game to play, have hit the CP cap and am bored I'll give it a go...maybe. /shrug

Dax_Draconis

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

But that's always been an issue even before subclassing. I have been in many dungeons, before subclassing, where I could pretty much just stand there because someone was killing everything easily.

ESO_player123

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

[*] Restricting Subclassing to overland and normal content, but keeping PvP and vet content as is with the same logic of the Armory assistant not being useable in leaderboarded content

Great post, and I agree with pretty much all of it except for this suggestion. It's affecting normal dungeons too, when you're grouped with a player who can just mow everything down before anyone else has a chance to do anything because of subclassing. I said in another post that it's really not fun to be in that group and it's made me want to do dungeons less.

I would amend your suggestion to this: Subclassing is used only when you're solo. Once you're in a group, no subclassing. You want to blow through group content solo. Be my guest. But when you're in a group, it's back to your pure class.

There's a reason that everybody who says "I want to replay Skyrim but as an [X] this time!" ends up with a stealth archer by the time they get through Bleak Falls Barrow.

This cracked me up! Guilty as charged lol.

But that's always been an issue even before subclassing. I have been in many dungeons, before subclassing, where I could pretty much just stand there because someone was killing everything easily.

Agree. Melting everything in normal dungeons has been a thing for a long time.