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The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article
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metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Oh well, I'm mostly in it to save the Great Mage anyway. By the way, after the prologue on Stirk, when talking to Azah, I asked him about saving Vanny, and he promised we would. Made some kind of oath about it and everything. So if we don't, I know who I'm holding accountable.
Oh, right after the end of the quest? They do have individual voice lines now? Back when I played it, they all said the same thing. That was on the day of release (yes, I did play the prologue a second time on a side character, but I didn't talk to the Stirk guys after the quest ended anymore since I didn't expect there to be a change).
Yeah, they do. I was in the same position as you--did it immediately when it went live, the post quest dialogue was nothing much, and so on my next characters through didn't check it. For some reason, I did this time, and thought to myself: I don't remember them saying all this before. But then I thought: well, it was awhile since I checked, maybe it just didn't stick in my brain.
Yes.Or maybe I'll go visit Vanny. A nice surprise for someone else for once, not just always for Gothren
Even more reprehensible!Well, I disagree on that, but it hardly matters, since we're unlikely to ever really know any of his motivations and inner thoughts. We've ascribed a lot to him based on his potential as a character, but we could be way off base, too. I guess that's the way it goes with rampant speculation.
I just want to see something that breaks the cliché for once. Some situation where he gets sentimental or really just feels anything, whatever it is, beyond the things that fit the "evil cult leader" cliché. I'm unsure whether we'll ever see that, of course; whether he is even officially designed as being anything beyond the cult leader. I still think it's a pity that his depiction is so limited.
In my mind his lack of sentimentality isn't down to the evil cult leader trope. I get the idea that, in his path to ascension, he's dropped some elements of humanity, knowingly or not. He can't understand the Great Mage's initial reaction to his necromancy not because he's evil, but because he no longer thinks of dead bodies as anything but tools or material; his views have gone past that. Whether or not there's anything in Tamriel that can get him to regain those aspects of humanity is another question entirely. That's why I think it would be interesting if he had qualms about using his own corpse.
But that is just me putting that onto his character based on what I've seen of him in game (which isn't much). Maybe he really is just evil cult leader with no nuance. A pity.Hopefully they tune it better, then. Or whatever it is they need to do to make it so if someone's in there alone it's not an excruciating experience. I can understand they want it to feel dangerous, and serious, and important, but that can backfire and just seem tedious and drawn out. As of right now, I have plans to take several characters through it, but that could change after I experience it, if it's too much.
They need to adjust it, at least the version that will stay after the event. They can hardly block players from ever playing the second part of one story. That would be so frustrating and disappointing to people.
When it comes to Part 2 of the Solstice story, one hint I picked up from the PTS forum: The more older content a character has completed, the better will the experience be. I couldn't compare it myself yet, but the number of dialogue options seems to differ a lot depending on whether your character has already finished older content or not. At least I've seen people posting how much they liked all those references to older quests, extra dialogue options, etc. I've especially seen the base game and Summerset being mentioned, not sure if other chapters count as well - probably depends on whether that character you're talking to played a role there or not. Now, even if I couldn't test it myself yet (my standard characters still haven't been copied to PTS, not sure when that will happen, and I won't play all old questlines on a new test character ) I think it's probably really better to do old content first. Because what I can say is that in terms of dialogue options... if West Solstice is the only thing you've played, it's not much. I hope that's not a spoiler, I think of it more as a warning or suggestion. But really, on my test character who had done nothing beyond West Solstice before, dialogue options were about like in Part 1. Meaning mostly none at all, sometimes 1, rarely 2. Not very exciting. If your characters talked to the npcs involved before, it's supposed to be much better.
That's interesting, and good news for my main guy, who has done everything quest-wise. Well, that's not entirely true. There are some dungeon and all trial quests he's never done. But he has done all other quests in game, all the zones, and so forth. So now I'm really looking forward to going through it on him.
Except, if characters haven't yet copied to PTS, how are they able to ascertain this difference?But as to the matter of the ESO stories, base game had some clunkers, too, and some shallow characters. I'm still hoping, based on what they said in the stream and the general sentiment expressed by new leadership, that better stories and characters are on the way. It's possible I'll be disappointed, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
Base game wasn't absolutely perfect either, of course. But there were many quests that did evoke emotions, even just side quests sometimes. Such moments were rarer within the last few years. At least that's my perception. Then again, I don't know yet how dialogue options I've missed this time We'll see. It's obviously not the time for final judgements if the game isn't even on the live servers yet.
I agree that the overall quality of quests has gone down, but I also think people's perceptions of the earlier writing have gotten distorted due to time, nostalgia, and whatever else gets in humans brains and changes memories about. I'm not speaking specifically of you; just a general impression I get from people's posts here on the forums. It happens to me, too. There are some quests I have a memory of being one way, but then I replay them and think, "This isn't as bad as I remember." or "This isn't as good as I remember."Oh, the Altmer ambassador for the Aldmeri Dominion told me that the name "Stirk Fellowship" would suffice until he came up with something better. That made me laugh, but I have to assume he has yet to hit upon the perfect name for the group, because it's been the Stirk Fellowship for awhile now.
I mean, it could have needed a better name, no? It does sound a bit weird. Then again, many organizations of Tamriel sound a bit weird. Or individuals even. Would you call yourself "Wormblood"? Who would do that? It leads to all kinds of silly nicknames.
Oh, I agreed with his sentiment, but I knew the line was put in there just to show how snobby Altmer are and there was no way the name was ever going to be changed.
As to Wormblood, do you know, I think he thinks it's a great signifier of his exalted status. He's telling everyone he's related to Mannimarco--direct bloodline of the Order of the Black Worm. At least that's what I got out of it. Probably though he just thinks it sounded edgy and cool. 0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, they do. I was in the same position as you--did it immediately when it went live, the post quest dialogue was nothing much, and so on my next characters through didn't check it. For some reason, I did this time, and thought to myself: I don't remember them saying all this before. But then I thought: well, it was awhile since I checked, maybe it just didn't stick in my brain.
Sounds like I have to test that another time on a side character. Not now, now it's time to plan other thingsYes.
But Mara supports love and friendship of all kinds! So when I take my thrall to the festival grounds to enjoy the atmosphere and maybe share a bit of wine and cake with him, it must surely be okay!Even more reprehensible!
Doesn't he like surprises?In my mind his lack of sentimentality isn't down to the evil cult leader trope. I get the idea that, in his path to ascension, he's dropped some elements of humanity, knowingly or not. He can't understand the Great Mage's initial reaction to his necromancy not because he's evil, but because he no longer thinks of dead bodies as anything but tools or material; his views have gone past that.
As a young man, barely having reached adulthood? He was still a novice at the Psijic Order at that time.Whether or not there's anything in Tamriel that can get him to regain those aspects of humanity is another question entirely. That's why I think it would be interesting if he had qualms about using his own corpse.
It would be an interesting thing to see.
Also the other way round, someone slowly getting into necromancy. It's always depicted as if it was no big deal and those evil necromancers were just... well, evil, I guess But getting used to handling corpses can't be that easy in the beginning. Apart from the obvious aspects: There are so many societal taboos around death and corpses, and every necromancer grew up in normal society and has been raised accordingly (Admittedly, Bosmer necromancers might have a little advantage there; it's strange, by the way, that necromancy is not a normal part of Bosmer society, since they do make use of the corpses of both enemies and allies - it's nothing strange for them, for example, to use a deceased relative's bones to craft something. So why would they not go a step further and raise thralls if neccessary?).That's interesting, and good news for my main guy, who has done everything quest-wise. Well, that's not entirely true. There are some dungeon and all trial quests he's never done. But he has done all other quests in game, all the zones, and so forth. So now I'm really looking forward to going through it on him.
I'm not sure whether dungeons and trials are relevant for this. Maybe, if one of the characters also showed up there? Actually, I've been wondering which content might be relevant considering the people that are of importance in Part 2. We have the Fellowship with Azah, Skordo, Razum-dar, Walks-In Ash, obviously Mannimarco and Vanny also play a role in the story, then a few returning Coldharbor-related characters I won't name here... Ah, yes, and Darien. How could I forget him? Anyone else? Trying to figure out which content might be important to get all dialogue options (or other variants, if I'd like to do some testing). I think having completed the base game main story and Summerset would be important. Wondering about base game zone/alliance quests, because some of the npcs also show up there. And then it gets complicated, especially since we don't know how much they went into detail there. We also had Skordo in Wrothgar and South Elsweyr. With Razum-dar it gets even worse, since he showed up almost everywhere, "fan favorite" and such: Base game, Gold Coast, Summerset, Elsweyr, Galen, the High Isle + Galen epilogue. He clearly comes up too often
In any way, it's hard to say which of these quests are relevant for the dialogue options. Maybe it's very detailed - or maybe it's rather simple and the only thing that counts is whether we've met before or not. I don't know, there was no statement about that. Although I'd assume that there must be dialogue differences in Darien's case, for example, depending on whether we only played the base game or also Summerset (or neither). Otherwise, things will get even more confusing, with plot holes and such.
Maybe it would be best if I check everything on my main first, since he has done all quest content except for trials and a few dungeons, so I could see what events characters refer to. And then I might get a few side characters into different states of completion to test what difference that makes... But not on PTS, that's unfortunately too much work.
Makes me wonder now, of course... There was a situation in the story where one npc was just standing around alone. You could talk to them, they did have one rather generic line, and that's it. I thought it wasn't much, and also a wasted opportunity somehow, since it would have been interesting to talk about their view on the events of that part of the story (And most of all I wondered why they'd just have that character standing there alone - while all others had already left). Made me wonder now whether there would have been more dialogue if you'd played base game content before so that character would already know you better. But who knows. I'd like to be hopeful, but on the other hand, I don't want to expect too much either, not to be disappointed. There were also side quests with completely new characters where I thought it would be so interesting to talk to them about some central aspect of the quest, but there was no dialogue about that.Except, if characters haven't yet copied to PTS, how are they able to ascertain this difference?
They don't copy all at once. It has always been like that with PTS. Not sure how their schedule is or whether it's a question of luck, but some already had theirs copied. I might be lucky on Monday, or maybe another week later. Would be unfortunate, of course, because I can't do any more testing until then.I agree that the overall quality of quests has gone down, but I also think people's perceptions of the earlier writing have gotten distorted due to time, nostalgia, and whatever else gets in humans brains and changes memories about. I'm not speaking specifically of you; just a general impression I get from people's posts here on the forums. It happens to me, too. There are some quests I have a memory of being one way, but then I replay them and think, "This isn't as bad as I remember." or "This isn't as good as I remember."
I know that memories aren't neccessarily accurate, but I had just played through the Dominion questline on a character some weeks ago, directly after playing Solstice Part 1, so I have the direct comparison. Also played a bit of Vvardenfell before Solstice Part 1 released, so I also got a comparison between those. And it's really a big difference, sadly.As to Wormblood, do you know, I think he thinks it's a great signifier of his exalted status. He's telling everyone he's related to Mannimarco--direct bloodline of the Order of the Black Worm. At least that's what I got out of it. Probably though he just thinks it sounded edgy and cool.
I know that the name can be seen as a signifier on him being Mannimarco's successor, maybe even being directly related by blood. But it's still a weird name, and also so... unindividual? It might work as a title, but as the sole name of a person? It really says nothing beyond "this person is related to Mannimarco somehow". Which isn't much. Not even Mannimarco just calls himself "Wormking" or "Wormgod", he still uses an actual name.
Then again, we've only met one Mannimarco so far. Maybe Wormblood's real name was Teldundindo @Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
I'm not talking about Mara's approval.
Honestly, I think he does not. In the prologue, he says he is "beyond annoyed" at finding the Worm Cult is back (which can be considered a surprise). He certainly didn't like the surprise of Mannimarco's puppetry. So, show him the thrall if you want. He won't like it, and he won't like you for bringing it, and who knows what he'll do. Zap you with lightning, most like.In my mind his lack of sentimentality isn't down to the evil cult leader trope. I get the idea that, in his path to ascension, he's dropped some elements of humanity, knowingly or not. He can't understand the Great Mage's initial reaction to his necromancy not because he's evil, but because he no longer thinks of dead bodies as anything but tools or material; his views have gone past that.
As a young man, barely having reached adulthood? He was still a novice at the Psijic Order at that time.
Why not, though? He's meant to be some kind of prodigy, isn't he? He and Vanus both. We also don't even really know how old he was then.Whether or not there's anything in Tamriel that can get him to regain those aspects of humanity is another question entirely. That's why I think it would be interesting if he had qualms about using his own corpse.
It would be an interesting thing to see.
Also the other way round, someone slowly getting into necromancy. It's always depicted as if it was no big deal and those evil necromancers were just... well, evil, I guess But getting used to handling corpses can't be that easy in the beginning. Apart from the obvious aspects: There are so many societal taboos around death and corpses, and every necromancer grew up in normal society and has been raised accordingly (Admittedly, Bosmer necromancers might have a little advantage there; it's strange, by the way, that necromancy is not a normal part of Bosmer society, since they do make use of the corpses of both enemies and allies - it's nothing strange for them, for example, to use a deceased relative's bones to craft something. So why would they not go a step further and raise thralls if neccessary?).
I think building a gradual interest in something is difficult to depict in a game like ESO, particularly with the way the timeline works (or doesn't, as the case may be). But it would be nice to see it somehow. A recurring character whose interest and skills are increased each time you see them, and in conversation you learn something of how they've progressed.That's interesting, and good news for my main guy, who has done everything quest-wise. Well, that's not entirely true. There are some dungeon and all trial quests he's never done. But he has done all other quests in game, all the zones, and so forth. So now I'm really looking forward to going through it on him.
I'm not sure whether dungeons and trials are relevant for this. Maybe, if one of the characters also showed up there? Actually, I've been wondering which content might be relevant considering the people that are of importance in Part 2. We have the Fellowship with Azah, Skordo, Razum-dar, Walks-In Ash, obviously Mannimarco and Vanny also play a role in the story, then a few returning Coldharbor-related characters I won't name here... Ah, yes, and Darien. How could I forget him? Anyone else? Trying to figure out which content might be important to get all dialogue options (or other variants, if I'd like to do some testing). I think having completed the base game main story and Summerset would be important. Wondering about base game zone/alliance quests, because some of the npcs also show up there. And then it gets complicated, especially since we don't know how much they went into detail there. We also had Skordo in Wrothgar and South Elsweyr. With Razum-dar it gets even worse, since he showed up almost everywhere, "fan favorite" and such: Base game, Gold Coast, Summerset, Elsweyr, Galen, the High Isle + Galen epilogue. He clearly comes up too often
In any way, it's hard to say which of these quests are relevant for the dialogue options. Maybe it's very detailed - or maybe it's rather simple and the only thing that counts is whether we've met before or not. I don't know, there was no statement about that. Although I'd assume that there must be dialogue differences in Darien's case, for example, depending on whether we only played the base game or also Summerset (or neither). Otherwise, things will get even more confusing, with plot holes and such.
Maybe it would be best if I check everything on my main first, since he has done all quest content except for trials and a few dungeons, so I could see what events characters refer to. And then I might get a few side characters into different states of completion to test what difference that makes... But not on PTS, that's unfortunately too much work.
Makes me wonder now, of course... There was a situation in the story where one npc was just standing around alone. You could talk to them, they did have one rather generic line, and that's it. I thought it wasn't much, and also a wasted opportunity somehow, since it would have been interesting to talk about their view on the events of that part of the story (And most of all I wondered why they'd just have that character standing there alone - while all others had already left). Made me wonder now whether there would have been more dialogue if you'd played base game content before so that character would already know you better. But who knows. I'd like to be hopeful, but on the other hand, I don't want to expect too much either, not to be disappointed. There were also side quests with completely new characters where I thought it would be so interesting to talk to them about some central aspect of the quest, but there was no dialogue about that.
Well, my main will go through first, and then I'll take through other characters based on how much they've done, and see what difference it makes. I'll also see how long this takes me.
Except, if characters haven't yet copied to PTS, how are they able to ascertain this difference?
They don't copy all at once. It has always been like that with PTS. Not sure how their schedule is or whether it's a question of luck, but some already had theirs copied. I might be lucky on Monday, or maybe another week later. Would be unfortunate, of course, because I can't do any more testing until then.
Sure you could: Just spin up another template character (or whatever they give you) and run that two hour quest again!
Seriously, though, hopefully your characters get the copy seal of approval.I agree that the overall quality of quests has gone down, but I also think people's perceptions of the earlier writing have gotten distorted due to time, nostalgia, and whatever else gets in humans brains and changes memories about. I'm not speaking specifically of you; just a general impression I get from people's posts here on the forums. It happens to me, too. There are some quests I have a memory of being one way, but then I replay them and think, "This isn't as bad as I remember." or "This isn't as good as I remember."
I know that memories aren't neccessarily accurate, but I had just played through the Dominion questline on a character some weeks ago, directly after playing Solstice Part 1, so I have the direct comparison. Also played a bit of Vvardenfell before Solstice Part 1 released, so I also got a comparison between those. And it's really a big difference, sadly.
I know there is a difference, but I think it doesn't seem as much of a difference to me. Perhaps because the Vestige has always asked the dumbest questions, ever since the beginning. I mean, when you go to Vvardenfell, pretty early on one of your dialogue options is: What's the tribunal? For me, the big change is they stopped making those dialogue choices optional. Anyway, different opinions aside, I do agree the quality has dipped and I hope it can not just return to former levels, but surpass them.As to Wormblood, do you know, I think he thinks it's a great signifier of his exalted status. He's telling everyone he's related to Mannimarco--direct bloodline of the Order of the Black Worm. At least that's what I got out of it. Probably though he just thinks it sounded edgy and cool.
I know that the name can be seen as a signifier on him being Mannimarco's successor, maybe even being directly related by blood. But it's still a weird name, and also so... unindividual? It might work as a title, but as the sole name of a person? It really says nothing beyond "this person is related to Mannimarco somehow". Which isn't much. Not even Mannimarco just calls himself "Wormking" or "Wormgod", he still uses an actual name.
Then again, we've only met one Mannimarco so far. Maybe Wormblood's real name was Teldundindo
Lol, well it was a very popular name at one time!
I figure he used the name Wormblood because otherwise the riff-raff of the Worm Cult might not recognize his superiority and/or leadership. Besides, maybe he likes it and doesn't think it's weird to use at all. I think it's weird. You think it's weird. He might think it's the perfect name. We'll never know, because we never got to know him.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not talking about Mara's approval.
Well, I'm sure Sanguine will be fine with it, too.Honestly, I think he does not. In the prologue, he says he is "beyond annoyed" at finding the Worm Cult is back (which can be considered a surprise).
He says a lot of things, and we know some of them are lies.He certainly didn't like the surprise of Mannimarco's puppetry. So, show him the thrall if you want. He won't like it, and he won't like you for bringing it, and who knows what he'll do. Zap you with lightning, most like.
I'd be curious just to see his reaction. How overwhelmed he might be, or not.
Then again, he might have become used to Mannimarco by now, after having been his guest for about half a yearWhy not, though? He's meant to be some kind of prodigy, isn't he? He and Vanus both. We also don't even really know how old he was then.
Prodigy or not, I think getting used to things just takes time. Getting used to normally repulsive things even more so. It's not about knowledge or capability, after all.
We don't know his exact age, but if he hadn't been young anymore as a novice, that would be hardly prodigiousI think building a gradual interest in something is difficult to depict in a game like ESO, particularly with the way the timeline works (or doesn't, as the case may be). But it would be nice to see it somehow. A recurring character whose interest and skills are increased each time you see them, and in conversation you learn something of how they've progressed.
If we can't really see it within quests, they could just use the usual diaries. But with necromancers they somehow act like those had just always been like that. No doubts, no difficulties.Sure you could: Just spin up another template character (or whatever they give you) and run that two hour quest again!
Seriously, though, hopefully your characters get the copy seal of approval.
The fortress will remain a problem - but at least my main has decent gear, all CPs assigned, and I'm used to his skills. That might make it a bit easier.
Also, I suggested on the PTS forum (unfortunately didn't get any direct reply yet) to give us a way to skip that fortress somehow - even if it's just as simple as directly activating quest #7 (fortress is quest #6) for us. No need to even mark the fortress as completed, just give us quest markers for the next quest on the East, so we can progress from there. It would make things much easier.
I don't think that fortress testing is much needed anyway, as everything there seems to function more or less (the few bugs have already been reported), and we're just not enough people on PTS to test it in a reasonable way anyway.I mean, when you go to Vvardenfell, pretty early on one of your dialogue options is: What's the tribunal? For me, the big change is they stopped making those dialogue choices optional
There were many players back then who started playing ESO with that chapter (although I guess many of them were fans of TES 3, so they knew who the Tribunal is) - considering new players, some of them maybe completely unfamiliar with TES lore, I'm not against these questions - if they're optional. The biggest problem is that they often aren't.I figure he used the name Wormblood because otherwise the riff-raff of the Worm Cult might not recognize his superiority and/or leadership. Besides, maybe he likes it and doesn't think it's weird to use at all. I think it's weird. You think it's weird. He might think it's the perfect name. We'll never know, because we never got to know him.
Or maybe Mannimarco gave him that name because he found it funny. In the next Worm Cult story, we might see his mates Wormwood, Wormroot and Wormrot. Maybe also Wormsoul, Wormspawn and Wormling, of course. The practical side of it is that Mannimarco doesn't need to remember different nicknames for them; he can just call all of them Wormy.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
I'm not concerned with what any Daedric Prince thinks of it. You aren't showing the thrall to them; you're taking it to a festival/celebration where that kind of thing tends to not happen.
I'm...not sure what your point is here. You asked if he liked surprises; I said I think he does not. You think he was lying about being annoyed the Worm Cult is back?He certainly didn't like the surprise of Mannimarco's puppetry. So, show him the thrall if you want. He won't like it, and he won't like you for bringing it, and who knows what he'll do. Zap you with lightning, most like.
I'd be curious just to see his reaction. How overwhelmed he might be, or not.
Then again, he might have become used to Mannimarco by now, after having been his guest for about half a year
Except for half of that time he was Wormblood's prisoner and for the other half, it's Mannimarco in Wormblood's body. It's probably been a good long while since he's seen Mannimarco's body, regardless of its condition. So it might take him a moment to collect himself. Or he might see Mannimarco's face and just start hurling lighting.Why not, though? He's meant to be some kind of prodigy, isn't he? He and Vanus both. We also don't even really know how old he was then.
Prodigy or not, I think getting used to things just takes time. Getting used to normally repulsive things even more so. It's not about knowledge or capability, after all.
Well, I'm not talking about normalcy here. Mannimarco might be many things, but normal is not one of them. If his mindset was fully on his power and testing the limits and capabilities of it, everything else might have been put in service of that. He might have initially recoiled at some of it, but reasoned that disgust away. After all, he tells Vanus, "There is no right and wrong--only power and weakness." That's in the flashback. So whatever age he is there, he's come to that conclusion.We don't know his exact age, but if he hadn't been young anymore as a novice, that would be hardly prodigious
I've been trying to find out what rank they were in those flashbacks, or a clue to what age they might have been, but I can't find anything other than that they were "classmates." Where did you find the information that he was a novice then?I think building a gradual interest in something is difficult to depict in a game like ESO, particularly with the way the timeline works (or doesn't, as the case may be). But it would be nice to see it somehow. A recurring character whose interest and skills are increased each time you see them, and in conversation you learn something of how they've progressed.
If we can't really see it within quests, they could just use the usual diaries. But with necromancers they somehow act like those had just always been like that. No doubts, no difficulties.
Most necromancers we meet in game are already well along their path to evil, so we don't even know how long they've been practicing or what motivated them. It would be very interesting to see one just starting out, and see them have doubts or reservations about some of the rituals and magic. See them work through it. At least, I would find it interesting. I'm not sure what kind of quest or interaction would go along with that, or whether most people would care.
A diary would work fine, sure. I'd just like something with a little more depth and interaction.Sure you could: Just spin up another template character (or whatever they give you) and run that two hour quest again!
Seriously, though, hopefully your characters get the copy seal of approval.
The fortress will remain a problem - but at least my main has decent gear, all CPs assigned, and I'm used to his skills. That might make it a bit easier.
Also, I suggested on the PTS forum (unfortunately didn't get any direct reply yet) to give us a way to skip that fortress somehow - even if it's just as simple as directly activating quest #7 (fortress is quest #6) for us. No need to even mark the fortress as completed, just give us quest markers for the next quest on the East, so we can progress from there. It would make things much easier.
I don't think that fortress testing is much needed anyway, as everything there seems to function more or less (the few bugs have already been reported), and we're just not enough people on PTS to test it in a reasonable way anyway.
They might make changes to it, too, based on what people are experiencing. Maybe? Or maybe not.I mean, when you go to Vvardenfell, pretty early on one of your dialogue options is: What's the tribunal? For me, the big change is they stopped making those dialogue choices optional
There were many players back then who started playing ESO with that chapter (although I guess many of them were fans of TES 3, so they knew who the Tribunal is) - considering new players, some of them maybe completely unfamiliar with TES lore, I'm not against these questions - if they're optional. The biggest problem is that they often aren't.
I know they put them in there for people who don't know the lore. My point is, they're nothing but exposition dialogue that makes the Vestige look silly. I can easily ignore them when they're optional. But like I said, the big change for me was they stopped making them optional. That, and the excessive repetition of plot points are what really drag the writing down for me.I figure he used the name Wormblood because otherwise the riff-raff of the Worm Cult might not recognize his superiority and/or leadership. Besides, maybe he likes it and doesn't think it's weird to use at all. I think it's weird. You think it's weird. He might think it's the perfect name. We'll never know, because we never got to know him.
Or maybe Mannimarco gave him that name because he found it funny. In the next Worm Cult story, we might see his mates Wormwood, Wormroot and Wormrot. Maybe also Wormsoul, Wormspawn and Wormling, of course. The practical side of it is that Mannimarco doesn't need to remember different nicknames for them; he can just call all of them Wormy.
That's certainly efficient, and if that was his reason I could understand it. Somehow I don't see the King of Worms as having much of a sense of humor, though. He takes things so seriously, all of the time.
So I was traipsing through Solstice today, doing some side quests as I went along on the main quest for my sorceress. I came to the Nord village, and the guy tells me they need help, and I get into conversation with him about Britt. He told me: "When King Jorunn created the Nord Cultural Exchange and put Rigurt in charge, Britt was still quite young." That got me to thinking about the timeline in the game and wondering if there was some way to tease out how much time had passed.
So I then asked the guy to tell me about the Cultural Exchange, and he said the King Jorunn started it to help bring various factions of the Pact together. The Pact was formed in 2E 572, but from the first Cultural Exchange quest in Mournhold, I got the idea it was Rigurt's first foray, so seems like the Exchange was created in 2E 582. If that's true, and Britt was "quite young" at the time, it seems like it's been at least ten years. I don't know what Nords consider "quite young." Ten? Younger? I also don't know how old Britt is supposed to be when we meet her. Twenty? Anyway, it's not much more than vague supposition, but it still caught my interest, because I just really want to know what year we're in now.
Also, both Walks and this Nord guy mentioned that Rigurt was on Solstice on his own special mission. Did we ever find out anything about that? I never saw Rigurt after he sulkily walked away after I found Walks. So I missed something, or there wasn't anything to find, or it's still to come.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not concerned with what any Daedric Prince thinks of it. You aren't showing the thrall to them; you're taking it to a festival/celebration where that kind of thing tends to not happen.
How do you know that? Maybe it's common that people take their necromantic thralls to festivities. They might just act so normally that you won't notice they're just dead puppets without any brain activity. Which, in many cases, isn't that different to how many people behave anywayI'm...not sure what your point is here. You asked if he liked surprises; I said I think he does not. You think he was lying about being annoyed the Worm Cult is back?
He might have found it exciting. Something different for once! Finally an opportunity to get kidnapped again!Except for half of that time he was Wormblood's prisoner and for the other half, it's Mannimarco in Wormblood's body. It's probably been a good long while since he's seen Mannimarco's body, regardless of its condition. So it might take him a moment to collect himself. Or he might see Mannimarco's face and just start hurling lighting.
That's not very well-mannered.Well, I'm not talking about normalcy here. Mannimarco might be many things, but normal is not one of them. If his mindset was fully on his power and testing the limits and capabilities of it, everything else might have been put in service of that. He might have initially recoiled at some of it, but reasoned that disgust away. After all, he tells Vanus, "There is no right and wrong--only power and weakness." That's in the flashback. So whatever age he is there, he's come to that conclusion.
I wouldn't conclude from that that this is already his stable mindset at that point. He might also say it to justify his behavior to himself and silence his remaining doubts. He grew up in Altmer society, he clearly knew their opinion on what he was doing; he knew they saw it as immoral, evil and maybe insane. You don't overcome your upbringing and your society's expectations in just a short time.I've been trying to find out what rank they were in those flashbacks, or a clue to what age they might have been, but I can't find anything other than that they were "classmates." Where did you find the information that he was a novice then?
It was in one of Vanny's writings. I've also found this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Esulo
"Mannimarco spent his youth experimenting in the vault"
It doesn't state his rank, but "youth" certainly does limit the age range.Most necromancers we meet in game are already well along their path to evil, so we don't even know how long they've been practicing or what motivated them. It would be very interesting to see one just starting out, and see them have doubts or reservations about some of the rituals and magic. See them work through it. At least, I would find it interesting. I'm not sure what kind of quest or interaction would go along with that, or whether most people would care.
A diary would work fine, sure. I'd just like something with a little more depth and interaction.
I want anything really that ends the clichéd depiction of the later years, of how evil npcs are nothing more but evil and have always been evil, so they're the cardboard enemies for this game (Of course unless they're from the Dark Brotherhood, since "void-worshipping assassin cultists = cool", so these get portrayed as positive characters all the time we come across them).They might make changes to it, too, based on what people are experiencing. Maybe? Or maybe not.
They would probably want to introduce some kind of scaling. Which might need testing. I just think the way it's right now, it's... just not good for the testing process of East Solstice content. The quest feedback threads are basically empty because many players don't even seem to have gotten to that point yet. Or there's nothing they'd like to say. Which I don't think is the case.
I'm still thinking about how to word my feedback... I've already taken notes while questing, of course, but I want to provide my content well-sorted and in the most effective way
Well, actually, it would be best if I could go through some of those quests again before giving a final feedback, maybe even on another character for dialogue comparisons, but when will I get that opportunity? I think I'll wait for later today, to look whether my characters have finally been copied - if so, I'll test more, if not, I'll send my review.That, and the excessive repetition of plot points are what really drag the writing down for me.
Indeed. It's also the wording. Background lore questions could easily be worded in a more subtle way instead of direct questions.That's certainly efficient, and if that was his reason I could understand it. Somehow I don't see the King of Worms as having much of a sense of humor, though. He takes things so seriously, all of the time.
That's rather unusual as evil wizards are usually leading a rather amusing life.So I was traipsing through Solstice today, doing some side quests as I went along on the main quest for my sorceress. I came to the Nord village, and the guy tells me they need help, and I get into conversation with him about Britt. He told me: "When King Jorunn created the Nord Cultural Exchange and put Rigurt in charge, Britt was still quite young." That got me to thinking about the timeline in the game and wondering if there was some way to tease out how much time had passed.
So I then asked the guy to tell me about the Cultural Exchange, and he said the King Jorunn started it to help bring various factions of the Pact together. The Pact was formed in 2E 572, but from the first Cultural Exchange quest in Mournhold, I got the idea it was Rigurt's first foray, so seems like the Exchange was created in 2E 582. If that's true, and Britt was "quite young" at the time, it seems like it's been at least ten years. I don't know what Nords consider "quite young." Ten? Younger? I also don't know how old Britt is supposed to be when we meet her. Twenty? Anyway, it's not much more than vague supposition, but it still caught my interest, because I just really want to know what year we're in now.
Maybe the writer indeed had those 10 real world years in mind.
Then again, during one's youth, so many things change withing only a few years. A 13-year-old is still clearly a child, but a 16-year-old could already become an apprentice. An 18-year-old might be seen as a young, but adult person. That's just 5 years, or even just 3 years between a child and an apprentice-aged individual. Then again, you'd probably not talk about someone having been "quite young back then" if you're talking about just 3 years ago. I'd say it's minimum 5 years, maybe even more, up to 10.Also, both Walks and this Nord guy mentioned that Rigurt was on Solstice on his own special mission. Did we ever find out anything about that? I never saw Rigurt after he sulkily walked away after I found Walks. So I missed something, or there wasn't anything to find, or it's still to come.
Didn't he show up somewhere around that Nord village again?
@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I'm not concerned with what any Daedric Prince thinks of it. You aren't showing the thrall to them; you're taking it to a festival/celebration where that kind of thing tends to not happen.
How do you know that? Maybe it's common that people take their necromantic thralls to festivities. They might just act so normally that you won't notice they're just dead puppets without any brain activity. Which, in many cases, isn't that different to how many people behave anyway
Well now you're just being contrarian.
Well, it's not possible for us to say. We'd have to ask him about it directly, and we can't do that right now.Except for half of that time he was Wormblood's prisoner and for the other half, it's Mannimarco in Wormblood's body. It's probably been a good long while since he's seen Mannimarco's body, regardless of its condition. So it might take him a moment to collect himself. Or he might see Mannimarco's face and just start hurling lighting.
That's not very well-mannered.
Says the Telvanni who shows up with gross dead things as a surprise.Well, I'm not talking about normalcy here. Mannimarco might be many things, but normal is not one of them. If his mindset was fully on his power and testing the limits and capabilities of it, everything else might have been put in service of that. He might have initially recoiled at some of it, but reasoned that disgust away. After all, he tells Vanus, "There is no right and wrong--only power and weakness." That's in the flashback. So whatever age he is there, he's come to that conclusion.
I wouldn't conclude from that that this is already his stable mindset at that point. He might also say it to justify his behavior to himself and silence his remaining doubts. He grew up in Altmer society, he clearly knew their opinion on what he was doing; he knew they saw it as immoral, evil and maybe insane. You don't overcome your upbringing and your society's expectations in just a short time.
Normal people might not, but he wasn't normal. He claims to be Aldmer. Setting aside the logical possibility of that, he claims it so it he must believe it, or think others will believe it, or both. Anyway, if he had only said that one line one time, maybe it wouldn't mean his ideas on it are firm. But that series of flashbacks took place over time and in each of them he shows a similar decision of mind, arrogance, and belief of his own infallibility. This is not a mer who doubts himself. Whatever qualms he may have once had about necromancy (or been brought up to have) are gone by the time we see those Artaeum flashbacks.I've been trying to find out what rank they were in those flashbacks, or a clue to what age they might have been, but I can't find anything other than that they were "classmates." Where did you find the information that he was a novice then?
It was in one of Vanny's writings. I've also found this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Esulo
"Mannimarco spent his youth experimenting in the vault"
It doesn't state his rank, but "youth" certainly does limit the age range.
It does limit it, though for Altmer I think the "youth" period lasts longer than it does for other races. However, I'm not saying he wasn't what passes for young among Altmer. I do think his mind was firmly made up about necromancy by that point.Most necromancers we meet in game are already well along their path to evil, so we don't even know how long they've been practicing or what motivated them. It would be very interesting to see one just starting out, and see them have doubts or reservations about some of the rituals and magic. See them work through it. At least, I would find it interesting. I'm not sure what kind of quest or interaction would go along with that, or whether most people would care.
A diary would work fine, sure. I'd just like something with a little more depth and interaction.
I want anything really that ends the clichéd depiction of the later years, of how evil npcs are nothing more but evil and have always been evil, so they're the cardboard enemies for this game (Of course unless they're from the Dark Brotherhood, since "void-worshipping assassin cultists = cool", so these get portrayed as positive characters all the time we come across them).
Yeah, the Dark Brotherhood getting a pass is odd. Maybe it's because they're amoral? Anyone does a little ritual and the Brotherhood is on the case, no judgments. Kind of frightening, really. I find it kind of funny when people complain about losing rapport with their companions when they Blade of Woe someone or when they go on a murder spree for the Dark Brotherhood. My first thought is always: why do you bring a friend to your assassinations?
Anyway, I've been thinking about the "villains" of recent chapters. For Necrom/West Weald, it was Torvesaard and Ithelia? Not villains so much as just people Mora didn't like, but definitely not "evil." I had my own issues with the storyline in general, but the characterizations of the antagonists were at least not one-dimensional. Even the Bosmer bad guy had his reasons.
For High Isle/Galen it was Ascendant Lord/Lord Baccaro, and his motivations weren't just evil, at least not to start; he did end up in cardboard villain territory.
Blackwood/Deadlands was, well, Dagon. Not evil so much as an immutable force of destruction. Then the thing with the Ambitions guy whose name I don't recall. Oh, wait, in Blackwood itself there was that council guy, too. Goodness, I think I've erased most of Blackwood from my memory. I blame Eveli. But I think all the "baddies" aside from Dagon had their reasons and weren't evil from day one.
But remember the article that started this whole thread? About going back to the Worm Cult because they're evil and everyone hates them and it's fun to beat up on evil? It's true that the Worm Cult wasn't given much characterization in base game other than "evil" either. So we were never going to get a nuanced Worm Cult or Worm Cult leader, were we? The mission statement was: these guys are evil.
No, there wasn't much point to all that. Yes, I was rambling.They might make changes to it, too, based on what people are experiencing. Maybe? Or maybe not.
They would probably want to introduce some kind of scaling. Which might need testing. I just think the way it's right now, it's... just not good for the testing process of East Solstice content. The quest feedback threads are basically empty because many players don't even seem to have gotten to that point yet. Or there's nothing they'd like to say. Which I don't think is the case.
I'm still thinking about how to word my feedback... I've already taken notes while questing, of course, but I want to provide my content well-sorted and in the most effective way
Well, actually, it would be best if I could go through some of those quests again before giving a final feedback, maybe even on another character for dialogue comparisons, but when will I get that opportunity? I think I'll wait for later today, to look whether my characters have finally been copied - if so, I'll test more, if not, I'll send my review.
Well, if I wasn't avoiding PTS threads, I'm sure I'd like to read it! I think you could give your review on the experience you had with the test character. It wouldn't necessarily have to be your final feedback, especially if they release any updates for the PTS.
That they could. Dialogue that's more akin to how people actually talk would be nice, too. I mean, how they would talk in the world of ESO--I don't mean modern day speech patterns.That's certainly efficient, and if that was his reason I could understand it. Somehow I don't see the King of Worms as having much of a sense of humor, though. He takes things so seriously, all of the time.
That's rather unusual as evil wizards are usually leading a rather amusing life.
Are they? Well, I've never seen Mannimarco amused.So I was traipsing through Solstice today, doing some side quests as I went along on the main quest for my sorceress. I came to the Nord village, and the guy tells me they need help, and I get into conversation with him about Britt. He told me: "When King Jorunn created the Nord Cultural Exchange and put Rigurt in charge, Britt was still quite young." That got me to thinking about the timeline in the game and wondering if there was some way to tease out how much time had passed.
So I then asked the guy to tell me about the Cultural Exchange, and he said the King Jorunn started it to help bring various factions of the Pact together. The Pact was formed in 2E 572, but from the first Cultural Exchange quest in Mournhold, I got the idea it was Rigurt's first foray, so seems like the Exchange was created in 2E 582. If that's true, and Britt was "quite young" at the time, it seems like it's been at least ten years. I don't know what Nords consider "quite young." Ten? Younger? I also don't know how old Britt is supposed to be when we meet her. Twenty? Anyway, it's not much more than vague supposition, but it still caught my interest, because I just really want to know what year we're in now.
Maybe the writer indeed had those 10 real world years in mind.
Then again, during one's youth, so many things change withing only a few years. A 13-year-old is still clearly a child, but a 16-year-old could already become an apprentice. An 18-year-old might be seen as a young, but adult person. That's just 5 years, or even just 3 years between a child and an apprentice-aged individual. Then again, you'd probably not talk about someone having been "quite young back then" if you're talking about just 3 years ago. I'd say it's minimum 5 years, maybe even more, up to 10.
It's the specific wording of "quite young" that made me wonder. Not knowing how old she's meant to be now makes it hard to say. I get the impression she's early twenties, but it's possible she's meant to be younger, more like eighteen. I don't know enough about Nords to know when they consider the youth to be able to go out and do their own thing.Also, both Walks and this Nord guy mentioned that Rigurt was on Solstice on his own special mission. Did we ever find out anything about that? I never saw Rigurt after he sulkily walked away after I found Walks. So I missed something, or there wasn't anything to find, or it's still to come.
Didn't he show up somewhere around that Nord village again?
I haven't seen him anywhere other than where he pops up when we're looking for the Pact Representative. Then he mope-walks his way down the hill. I followed him once to see if he actually went anywhere specific, but he disappeared into the landscape like npcs do. And the guy outside the Nord village mentioned that Rigurt wasn't available for this particular cultural exchange because he had a "secret mission" of his own to do. But I'll look around again, see if he's hiding in the bushes or something.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well now you're just being contrarian.
Just speaking the truthSays the Telvanni who shows up with gross dead things as a surprise.
Gross?! Well, that's not very friendly either! If I ever introduce any thralls to you, please refrain from calling them gross. You'd hurt their feelings if they still had some.Normal people might not, but he wasn't normal. He claims to be Aldmer. Setting aside the logical possibility of that, he claims it so it he must believe it, or think others will believe it, or both.
Simple braggery. Trying to impress his idiot cultists. Or just emphasizing his noble heritage.Anyway, if he had only said that one line one time, maybe it wouldn't mean his ideas on it are firm. But that series of flashbacks took place over time and in each of them he shows a similar decision of mind, arrogance, and belief of his own infallibility. This is not a mer who doubts himself. Whatever qualms he may have once had about necromancy (or been brought up to have) are gone by the time we see those Artaeum flashbacks.
But it would be interesting to see that for once, would it not? Anything? Even if through flashbacks or an old diary somehow? Since if a character has nothing "human" about them, it's hardly interesting to even think about them.It does limit it, though for Altmer I think the "youth" period lasts longer than it does for other races.
I think their adulthood lasts longer, and they're also old for a long time, but they don't spend decades being youths. Now, there might possibly be a small difference between Altmer and Dunmer, but Barenziah, for example, is said to have left home at 16 and married at 18. And how old was Ayrenn in the base game? 27, I think? And I'd clearly say she isn't in her youth anymore.Yeah, the Dark Brotherhood getting a pass is odd. Maybe it's because they're amoral? Anyone does a little ritual and the Brotherhood is on the case, no judgments. Kind of frightening, really.
Media trope. Assassins are "cool". Even psychopathic serial killers already got tv shows where they were depicted as the fascinating main character. For me it feels arbitrary; from the moral standpoint I don't think one murder cult is better or worse than another.
I'm all for being able to play an evil character in ESO, but I'd prefer an open depiction where moral stances aren't predefined for us. Just give us options, let our character decide whom to join and how to act, with npcs showing reactions that make sense for the depicted world.I find it kind of funny when people complain about losing rapport with their companions when they Blade of Woe someone or when they go on a murder spree for the Dark Brotherhood. My first thought is always: why do you bring a friend to your assassinations?
I don't think these players care for narrative aspects, questing, immersion and roleplay much. People who just follow all objectives, do whatever the task is and kill everything that's supposed to be killed do exist.Anyway, I've been thinking about the "villains" of recent chapters.
I mean, strictly seen, Mannimarco has reasons for what he's doing, too. The question is more whether these reasons are interesting, how the character's thoughts and deeds are depicted - it's the details that make it interesting or not. You could even make something interesting out of Mannimarco's apotheosis plans. The problem is that the depiction remains superficial. We don't learn much about his feelings, there's no tragic or interesting backstory. How did he even come to lead a cult that worships Molag Bal, or how did he develop his longing to basically become an immortal, divine Aldmer "again"? Did he have weird dreams as a kid? Was it bad influence by stories about some ancestor? Did he read an old diary he shouldn't have seen? Did he fall out of his crib, hit his head too hard and had a "vision"? People don't just wake up one morning and decide they'd pursue godhood plans. And I don't think they're born like that either.But remember the article that started this whole thread? About going back to the Worm Cult because they're evil and everyone hates them and it's fun to beat up on evil? It's true that the Worm Cult wasn't given much characterization in base game other than "evil" either. So we were never going to get a nuanced Worm Cult or Worm Cult leader, were we? The mission statement was: these guys are evil.
I remember. And I'm saying I find that boring. Even worse it if's more or less the same story twice.
It also makes a difference to me how often we come across a character and how much of a role that character plays in TES lore. I don't need a detailed backstory for some "evil" guy we only see for 5 minutes. But Mannimarco is so central for TES lore as a whole, and we had two whole stories centered on what his cult is doing now, still we know barely anything. It's almost frustrating in a way.Well, if I wasn't avoiding PTS threads, I'm sure I'd like to read it! I think you could give your review on the experience you had with the test character. It wouldn't necessarily have to be your final feedback, especially if they release any updates for the PTS.
I'm thinking about it.
I've set up my US server character now, by the way. How long might it take until Hero's Return pops up? 2 months? 3?That they could. Dialogue that's more akin to how people actually talk would be nice, too. I mean, how they would talk in the world of ESO--I don't mean modern day speech patterns.
I'd like that, but I'd be a little wary when it comes to the possible result. Maybe we'd just get lots of idioms about fish biscuits and cracked acorns... What are fish biscuits even?Are they? Well, I've never seen Mannimarco amused.
Now that I'm thinking about it: Don't we get an evil laugh from him from time to time? I remember Wormblood's laughter, of course ("Your soul will be mine! Hahahahaha!"), but wasn't Mannimarco laughing, too, at least sometimes, when he wasn't annoyed or angry?I haven't seen him anywhere other than where he pops up when we're looking for the Pact Representative. Then he mope-walks his way down the hill. I followed him once to see if he actually went anywhere specific, but he disappeared into the landscape like npcs do. And the guy outside the Nord village mentioned that Rigurt wasn't available for this particular cultural exchange because he had a "secret mission" of his own to do. But I'll look around again, see if he's hiding in the bushes or something.
I'm honestly not sure anymore whether I saw him there somewhere or not. Unfortunately, UESP doesn't have anything on that yet. It always takes some time after a new content release to update articles.
What I can say is that I didn't see him in East Solstice anywhere (although of course, I could have missed him). So he's probably not accendentally wandered through the Wall somehow
Edited by Syldras on 22 September 2025 05:07@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
I make no promises.Normal people might not, but he wasn't normal. He claims to be Aldmer. Setting aside the logical possibility of that, he claims it so it he must believe it, or think others will believe it, or both.
Simple braggery. Trying to impress his idiot cultists. Or just emphasizing his noble heritage.
Could be that; could be what I suggested; could be something else entirely. We're unlikely to ever know.Anyway, if he had only said that one line one time, maybe it wouldn't mean his ideas on it are firm. But that series of flashbacks took place over time and in each of them he shows a similar decision of mind, arrogance, and belief of his own infallibility. This is not a mer who doubts himself. Whatever qualms he may have once had about necromancy (or been brought up to have) are gone by the time we see those Artaeum flashbacks.
But it would be interesting to see that for once, would it not? Anything? Even if through flashbacks or an old diary somehow? Since if a character has nothing "human" about them, it's hardly interesting to even think about them.
Yes, it would be interesting to see how Mannimarco got to the point where we see him in the flashbacks. I think we've talked about that before. What led him to this path? Not just necromancy, but plans for godhood, too, and to start claiming he's Aldmer. Conversely, if he actually truly is Aldmer...well, what the heck has he been doing this whole time? I'm sure achieving a god state takes awhile, but you'd think he'd have had other things going to.It does limit it, though for Altmer I think the "youth" period lasts longer than it does for other races.
I think their adulthood lasts longer, and they're also old for a long time, but they don't spend decades being youths. Now, there might possibly be a small difference between Altmer and Dunmer, but Barenziah, for example, is said to have left home at 16 and married at 18. And how old was Ayrenn in the base game? 27, I think? And I'd clearly say she isn't in her youth anymore.
I figured Ayrenn was older than that, not because of evidence or lore or anything, but because it just seemed like she was. Didn't Barenziah basically run away from home because she didn't want to follow the life plans made for her? It's been a long time since I read the Barenziah books, and I might be thinking instead of "The Real Barenziah" series which was akin to an unauthorized and unsubstantiated biography. It was a good read, though. I spent a lot of time in Skyrim tracking that set down for my home library.Yeah, the Dark Brotherhood getting a pass is odd. Maybe it's because they're amoral? Anyone does a little ritual and the Brotherhood is on the case, no judgments. Kind of frightening, really.
Media trope. Assassins are "cool". Even psychopathic serial killers already got tv shows where they were depicted as the fascinating main character. For me it feels arbitrary; from the moral standpoint I don't think one murder cult is better or worse than another.
I'm all for being able to play an evil character in ESO, but I'd prefer an open depiction where moral stances aren't predefined for us. Just give us options, let our character decide whom to join and how to act, with npcs showing reactions that make sense for the depicted world.
I really dislike the romanticizing of serial killers we see in modern media. Anyway, I was thinking about the Dark Brotherhood's depiction in the Elder Scrolls and I actually don't think they're meant to be beloved or really even accepted by the Tamriel populace. (Players, of course, being a different category.) There are npc reactions that show this, even if they aren't that well handled (Eveli lecturing the player, for example). The ritual to call upon the Brotherhood is seen as dark magic, I believe. And, of course, it's not supposed to be a topic for casual conversation among citizens. It's just really hard to convey that in an MMO where players do casual murder dailies for the Brotherhood. In Skyrim you could choose to wipe out the Brotherhood if you wanted. Ah, the true choice of single player games! It's funny to me that Naryu thinks the Dark Brotherhood is bad not because of the murder aspect, but because it lacks the bureaucracy of the Morag Tong, with their writ system.
I wonder if ESO would ever venture down the path where a player could choose to 1. Sign up with the Brotherhood, 2. Ignore the existence of the Brotherhood, 3. Work with law enforcement (so, town guards, militia?) to dismantle the Brotherhood, or 4. Infiltrate and take down the Brotherhood from within. Different choices that, once you chose, would lock you out of the other paths. Though I guess if you started by ignoring them, you could go back later and join or fight them. But the point being, the world state wouldn't be the same for every player once they chose the "destroy" or "join" path. Except I know MMOs don't like content like that, so I know it would never happen, and players probably wouldn't like it, and so forth and etc.Anyway, I've been thinking about the "villains" of recent chapters.
I mean, strictly seen, Mannimarco has reasons for what he's doing, too. The question is more whether these reasons are interesting, how the character's thoughts and deeds are depicted - it's the details that make it interesting or not. You could even make something interesting out of Mannimarco's apotheosis plans. The problem is that the depiction remains superficial. We don't learn much about his feelings, there's no tragic or interesting backstory. How did he even come to lead a cult that worships Molag Bal, or how did he develop his longing to basically become an immortal, divine Aldmer "again"? Did he have weird dreams as a kid? Was it bad influence by stories about some ancestor? Did he read an old diary he shouldn't have seen? Did he fall out of his crib, hit his head too hard and had a "vision"? People don't just wake up one morning and decide they'd pursue godhood plans. And I don't think they're born like that either.
Sure, he has reasons, but isn't the point that his reasons are all characterized as wrong and evil? We're never given the chance to see his reasons in any other light, like we could with Lord Baccaro.
Generally speaking, I don't like "tragic backstory" as motivator. It's overused to the extent that seemingly no one ever pursues a path because it's something they want, they're only doing it because of past tragedy. I also don't think people are born a certain way that predefines their destiny/actions, so when I say Mannimarco isn't normal, I mean that's a result of his life--his upbringing, his choices, his experiences. Yes, I would like to know what those details are. I don't think we'll ever get them, though.But remember the article that started this whole thread? About going back to the Worm Cult because they're evil and everyone hates them and it's fun to beat up on evil? It's true that the Worm Cult wasn't given much characterization in base game other than "evil" either. So we were never going to get a nuanced Worm Cult or Worm Cult leader, were we? The mission statement was: these guys are evil.
I remember. And I'm saying I find that boring. Even worse it if's more or less the same story twice.
It also makes a difference to me how often we come across a character and how much of a role that character plays in TES lore. I don't need a detailed backstory for some "evil" guy we only see for 5 minutes. But Mannimarco is so central for TES lore as a whole, and we had two whole stories centered on what his cult is doing now, still we know barely anything. It's almost frustrating in a way.
I agree it's a boring way to approach it (I think I may have even said so waaaay back on page one or two). It is frustrating to be told what to think and feel about a character rather than deciding for ourselves through the character's presentation in the game. But this isn't a single player game and we don't get to choose sides. We're in this to be in opposition to Mannimarco and the story is told starting from that basic premise. We're meant to accept that he's evil and needs to be stopped, and so the only thing we ever really learn about him is what various bad or evil things he's done. Since we "defeated" him in base game, I think bringing him back for a retread wasn't the best idea, but it's the one they went with. I don't know their reasons for not giving more backstory for him. Those Artaeum flashbacks were interesting, and yet we never got anything else like that, or anything from before he was set as the character we know. I was really hoping to find a family connection between Mannimarco and Clan Corelanya, or at least find out how he even knew about them and Solstice, but we didn't.Well, if I wasn't avoiding PTS threads, I'm sure I'd like to read it! I think you could give your review on the experience you had with the test character. It wouldn't necessarily have to be your final feedback, especially if they release any updates for the PTS.
I'm thinking about it.
I've set up my US server character now, by the way. How long might it take until Hero's Return pops up? 2 months? 3?
To be on the safe side, I would wait three. It was between two and three on my alternate account, but I wasn't keeping exact track since I really didn't expect to have it pop up.That they could. Dialogue that's more akin to how people actually talk would be nice, too. I mean, how they would talk in the world of ESO--I don't mean modern day speech patterns.
I'd like that, but I'd be a little wary when it comes to the possible result. Maybe we'd just get lots of idioms about fish biscuits and cracked acorns... What are fish biscuits even?
Biscuits in the U.S. are a bread-like food (they're in the 'quick bread' category). Biscuits in the U.K. are cookies. So fish biscuits are either fishy bread or fishy cookies. Basically, kitty treats. Or that interpretation is entirely wrong and fish biscuits is some kind of Khajiit slang that means something else.
I do like the slang and idioms that come up from time to time in ESO. There is the chance they'd get overused, though.Are they? Well, I've never seen Mannimarco amused.
Now that I'm thinking about it: Don't we get an evil laugh from him from time to time? I remember Wormblood's laughter, of course ("Your soul will be mine! Hahahahaha!"), but wasn't Mannimarco laughing, too, at least sometimes, when he wasn't annoyed or angry?
Was he? It's possible. I can't recall him laughing. Mocking. Smug. Smirking. He does that pretty well. That speech he gives us in Sancre Tor about how everyone is going to bow down to him--he might have had some kind of manic laugh there, but I really don't remember such.I haven't seen him anywhere other than where he pops up when we're looking for the Pact Representative. Then he mope-walks his way down the hill. I followed him once to see if he actually went anywhere specific, but he disappeared into the landscape like npcs do. And the guy outside the Nord village mentioned that Rigurt wasn't available for this particular cultural exchange because he had a "secret mission" of his own to do. But I'll look around again, see if he's hiding in the bushes or something.
I'm honestly not sure anymore whether I saw him there somewhere or not. Unfortunately, UESP doesn't have anything on that yet. It always takes some time after a new content release to update articles.
What I can say is that I didn't see him in East Solstice anywhere (although of course, I could have missed him). So he's probably not accendentally wandered through the Wall somehow
Maybe he managed to slip through a crack in the Wall and was immediately captured. We don't free him, because why would we, and the Worm Cult gets to keep him forever, since it's unlikely we take them down for good this time either.
Realistically, it was probably just a line put in to explain why he wasn't leading the Cultural Exchange this time around, and there was never going to be anything more about his mission. Oh, it was also there to explain why they tried to give us a shock by having him initially appear in the place where the Pact representative was to be found; a bit of misdirection. So, double duty for one throwaway line isn't too shabby.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I make no promises.
You won't even notice! I'll restore them to an almost life-like status beforehand.Conversely, if he actually truly is Aldmer...well, what the heck has he been doing this whole time? I'm sure achieving a god state takes awhile, but you'd think he'd have had other things going to.
The Aldmer split into different groups of mer (and by that ceased to exist as a people) during the Middle Merithic Era. Vanny left Artaeum around 2E 230. Between that lies a timespan of several thousands years. If Mannimarco was in his youth in 2E, he definitely can't be Aldmer (let alone he wasn't that powerful back then, which also hints at him not having been that old at that time).Didn't Barenziah basically run away from home because she didn't want to follow the life plans made for her?
Yes, she did. The books do give us a little idea on how mer age, at least.I really dislike the romanticizing of serial killers we see in modern media.
I don't like it either, but it does generally explain some tendencies one sees in writing nowadays.Anyway, I was thinking about the Dark Brotherhood's depiction in the Elder Scrolls and I actually don't think they're meant to be beloved or really even accepted by the Tamriel populace. (Players, of course, being a different category.) There are npc reactions that show this, even if they aren't that well handled (Eveli lecturing the player, for example). The ritual to call upon the Brotherhood is seen as dark magic, I believe. And, of course, it's not supposed to be a topic for casual conversation among citizens. It's just really hard to convey that in an MMO where players do casual murder dailies for the Brotherhood.
I'm aware npcs usually fear them and probably think of them as insane cultists. I was talking about how the player is supposed to see them as positive and cooperate with them even if it's outside of that story where the player character has decided to join them. We had that in Blackwood/Deadlands with Elam Drals, for example. And without wanting to give details, East Solstice also has a character who has a side quest for you, and it's more than clear that he's from the Dark Brotherhood. Still you can't comment on that in any way, all you can do is do his fetch quest, hand him the item, and get your reward. Not sure if there's more dialogue if you've done other content before, but even then, the extra dialogue would probably be about you being a DB member, too - so again, only positive interactions. You can't decide not to help him (unless you skip the quest altogether), like you couldn't decide not to interact with Elam Drals in Blackwood. The game makes that choice for us. At the same time, we can't cooperate with other "evil organisations" - there's clearly a difference how they treat them, with the DB seemingly thought of as being "okay somehow".
It's funny we got all that "They're absolutely evil, they murder people, they're irredeemable, you love to hate and kill them" stuff (which I find weird anyway, I didn't ever "loved to hate" anyone all my life and I don't think I'd want that either - for me it sounds rather sad) about the Worm Cult while the DB isn't any better at all from the moral perspective. Still they treat one of them as the absolutely horrible antagonists, and the other as that edgy cool group you'd like to join.In Skyrim you could choose to wipe out the Brotherhood if you wanted.
Which I did, simply because my character doesn't enjoy being bossed around by some random hag sitting on a wardrobe.It's funny to me that Naryu thinks the Dark Brotherhood is bad not because of the murder aspect, but because it lacks the bureaucracy of the Morag Tong, with their writ system.
There's really not that much of a diference. Both kill random people. In case of the DB, you need to call them by ritual. In case of the MT, all that's need is enough money for the execution writ.I wonder if ESO would ever venture down the path where a player could choose to 1. Sign up with the Brotherhood, 2. Ignore the existence of the Brotherhood, 3. Work with law enforcement (so, town guards, militia?) to dismantle the Brotherhood, or 4. Infiltrate and take down the Brotherhood from within. Different choices that, once you chose, would lock you out of the other paths. Though I guess if you started by ignoring them, you could go back later and join or fight them. But the point being, the world state wouldn't be the same for every player once they chose the "destroy" or "join" path. Except I know MMOs don't like content like that, so I know it would never happen, and players probably wouldn't like it, and so forth and etc.
I'd like it. 2 or 3 different quest paths. Maybe they could still lead to the same main result at the end of the story.Sure, he has reasons, but isn't the point that his reasons are all characterized as wrong and evil? We're never given the chance to see his reasons in any other light, like we could with Lord Baccaro.
That's why I had hoped for more background lore and a better characterization of Mannimarco and the Cult, which would include questions about their world view and their motivations - apart from "being evil, apotheosis plans, Planemeld".Generally speaking, I don't like "tragic backstory" as motivator. It's overused to the extent that seemingly no one ever pursues a path because it's something they want, they're only doing it because of past tragedy.
Just because some event in the past might have led to a certain world view, knowledge, or values, doesn't mean it's not a chosen path. It can absolutely be a choice made based on what one saw before. We're all shaped by past life experiences. All our choices are - we don't just get some idea out of thin air; what we experienced in live led us to a certain way of thinking, and that's the fundament of the ideas we'll get.
Let's say Mannimarco was Corelanyan: Then his view of necromancy could be shaped by Corelanyan history - on the one hand, it could have made him recognize it's usefulness, on the other hand, his dream of a freely necromancy-tolerating, daedra-worshipping society could be based on his knowledge about how that led to his ancestors being forced into exile. Knowledge about the Ra Gada invasion could have made him think about how this slaughtering of his ancestors would have not happened if they had still been immortal, godly Aldmer - undefeatable and in no way tangible by any other of Tamriel's people, be it humans or beastfolk. That's not excusing what he's doing, but it would make us understand why he is doing all this. Because even "the evil guys" don't usually think of themselves as evil, they believe their plans have a purpose beyond that.I also don't think people are born a certain way that predefines their destiny/actions, so when I say Mannimarco isn't normal, I mean that's a result of his life--his upbringing, his choices, his experiences.
I don't find him unnormal. He's intelligent, and has grown ruthless over the years, of course he has become very powerful over those centuries, but he doesn't seem weird, incomprehensible or much different than the average moral-rejecting person to me. Give any average cultist or even just power-hungry noble the same power Mannimarco has developed - 90% would probably end up being about the same. He has his ideals and plans, for society and for himself, and works on them. Many people do exactly that. The only difference is that some of these ideals and plans clash a bit more with the ideals and plans of general society, while others do not.Since we "defeated" him in base game, I think bringing him back for a retread wasn't the best idea, but it's the one they went with.
It could have been a chance to make something different and give Mannimarco and Cult lore more depth. A different view on that topic for once. Maybe even some changes to how things had been a decade ago, since they told us that years were progressing in Tamriel.I don't know their reasons for not giving more backstory for him. Those Artaeum flashbacks were interesting, and yet we never got anything else like that, or anything from before he was set as the character we know. I was really hoping to find a family connection between Mannimarco and Clan Corelanya, or at least find out how he even knew about them and Solstice, but we didn't.
The Artaeum flashbacks hinted at a good direction. They generally did so much character background lore back then, a big part of the CWC dlc was basically just that. We didn't see that in later stories anymore. Not sure what caused the change, but if the storytelling was still on that level it was in the early years, I'm very sure the new Worm Cult story would have looked different.To be on the safe side, I would wait three. It was between two and three on my alternate account, but I wasn't keeping exact track since I really didn't expect to have it pop up.
So it looks like I'll have something to do at the end of December then.
Oh, which reminds me: My characters still haven't been copied to PTS. So another week I won't be able to do any more testing. What a pity. So it's next Monday then, I guess. If needs to be; it's only 2 weeks left until the Wall event starts then.Biscuits in the U.S. are a bread-like food (they're in the 'quick bread' category). Biscuits in the U.K. are cookies. So fish biscuits are either fishy bread or fishy cookies. Basically, kitty treats. Or that interpretation is entirely wrong and fish biscuits is some kind of Khajiit slang that means something else.
I rarely use Ember, but doesn't she use it while swearing? So it doesn't sound like it's supposed to be something positive? Anyway, these exist, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FishcakeI do like the slang and idioms that come up from time to time in ESO. There is the chance they'd get overused, though.
Oh, I'm also not generally against them. The problem indeed is the overuse.Was he? It's possible. I can't recall him laughing. Mocking. Smug. Smirking. He does that pretty well. That speech he gives us in Sancre Tor about how everyone is going to bow down to him--he might have had some kind of manic laugh there, but I really don't remember such.
I'm not sure why, but for some reason, it always amuses me.Maybe he managed to slip through a crack in the Wall and was immediately captured. We don't free him, because why would we, and the Worm Cult gets to keep him forever, since it's unlikely we take them down for good this time either.
He might become the new Wormblood.Realistically, it was probably just a line put in to explain why he wasn't leading the Cultural Exchange this time around, and there was never going to be anything more about his mission. Oh, it was also there to explain why they tried to give us a shock by having him initially appear in the place where the Pact representative was to be found; a bit of misdirection. So, double duty for one throwaway line isn't too shabby.
I see what the intention might have been, but I personally prefer npcs not to randomly show up and disappear again after they've just spoken a few lines.
Edited by Syldras on 23 September 2025 00:08@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
I'm still going to pass on the whole deal. Or experience. Or...whatever it was you had planned.Conversely, if he actually truly is Aldmer...well, what the heck has he been doing this whole time? I'm sure achieving a god state takes awhile, but you'd think he'd have had other things going to.
The Aldmer split into different groups of mer (and by that ceased to exist as a people) during the Middle Merithic Era. Vanny left Artaeum around 2E 230. Between that lies a timespan of several thousands years. If Mannimarco was in his youth in 2E, he definitely can't be Aldmer (let alone he wasn't that powerful back then, which also hints at him not having been that old at that time).
I was mostly joking about him being Aldmer. I'm aware of the inconsistencies presented. I think it's interesting/funny how he keeps to the claim of being Aldmer without ever presenting anything to back it up.
I wouldn't say she was random, exactly, but yes I had more or less the same reaction.It's funny to me that Naryu thinks the Dark Brotherhood is bad not because of the murder aspect, but because it lacks the bureaucracy of the Morag Tong, with their writ system.
There's really not that much of a diference. Both kill random people. In case of the DB, you need to call them by ritual. In case of the MT, all that's need is enough money for the execution writ.
I don't think there's any difference, really. But the speech you can get from her in game about being part of the Brotherhood amuses me. An assassin telling you that her assassin group is ok but yours is not.Sure, he has reasons, but isn't the point that his reasons are all characterized as wrong and evil? We're never given the chance to see his reasons in any other light, like we could with Lord Baccaro.
That's why I had hoped for more background lore and a better characterization of Mannimarco and the Cult, which would include questions about their world view and their motivations - apart from "being evil, apotheosis plans, Planemeld".
Well, I did, too. Because "Worm Cult's back...somehow!" didn't seem like much of a story to me. Oh well.Generally speaking, I don't like "tragic backstory" as motivator. It's overused to the extent that seemingly no one ever pursues a path because it's something they want, they're only doing it because of past tragedy.
Just because some event in the past might have led to a certain world view, knowledge, or values, doesn't mean it's not a chosen path. It can absolutely be a choice made based on what one saw before. We're all shaped by past life experiences. All our choices are - we don't just get some idea out of thin air; what we experienced in live led us to a certain way of thinking, and that's the fundament of the ideas we'll get.
Let's say Mannimarco was Corelanyan: Then his view of necromancy could be shaped by Corelanyan history - on the one hand, it could have made him recognize it's usefulness, on the other hand, his dream of a freely necromancy-tolerating, daedra-worshipping society could be based on his knowledge about how that led to his ancestors being forced into exile. Knowledge about the Ra Gada invasion could have made him think about how this slaughtering of his ancestors would have not happened if they had still been immortal, godly Aldmer - undefeatable and in no way tangible by any other of Tamriel's people, be it humans or beastfolk. That's not excusing what he's doing, but it would make us understand why he is doing all this. Because even "the evil guys" don't usually think of themselves as evil, they believe their plans have a purpose beyond that.
Ok, you're giving it much more complexity than the trope usually has. The way it's used that I don't like is when there's a single event--one single tragic event--in someone's past, and that one event becomes their entire reason for existence. I know we're all shaped by past life experiences; I'm a human being living a life, not a robot, after all.I also don't think people are born a certain way that predefines their destiny/actions, so when I say Mannimarco isn't normal, I mean that's a result of his life--his upbringing, his choices, his experiences.
I don't find him unnormal. He's intelligent, and has grown ruthless over the years, of course he has become very powerful over those centuries, but he doesn't seem weird, incomprehensible or much different than the average moral-rejecting person to me. Give any average cultist or even just power-hungry noble the same power Mannimarco has developed - 90% would probably end up being about the same. He has his ideals and plans, for society and for himself, and works on them. Many people do exactly that. The only difference is that some of these ideals and plans clash a bit more with the ideals and plans of general society, while others do not.
I'm comparing his normalcy to the other people in the world of ESO. Most of them are not like him. He is an outlier; therefore not in the norm. It has nothing to do with how weird he might seem to others, or whether or not I can comprehend his motivations.
I'm curious, though, which of his ideals and plans you think don't clash with the ideals and plans of the general society of Tamriel. Any of his plans I know about don't end up too well for the general society.I don't know their reasons for not giving more backstory for him. Those Artaeum flashbacks were interesting, and yet we never got anything else like that, or anything from before he was set as the character we know. I was really hoping to find a family connection between Mannimarco and Clan Corelanya, or at least find out how he even knew about them and Solstice, but we didn't.
The Artaeum flashbacks hinted at a good direction. They generally did so much character background lore back then, a big part of the CWC dlc was basically just that. We didn't see that in later stories anymore. Not sure what caused the change, but if the storytelling was still on that level it was in the early years, I'm very sure the new Worm Cult story would have looked different.
You think? Because the Worm Cult looks pretty much the same as they did in base game. They didn't have nuance then, either. Our introduction to them was: hey, they're bad and need defeating.
For when the New Life Festival begins to pall.Oh, which reminds me: My characters still haven't been copied to PTS. So another week I won't be able to do any more testing. What a pity. So it's next Monday then, I guess. If needs to be; it's only 2 weeks left until the Wall event starts then.
Well that's a bummer.Biscuits in the U.S. are a bread-like food (they're in the 'quick bread' category). Biscuits in the U.K. are cookies. So fish biscuits are either fishy bread or fishy cookies. Basically, kitty treats. Or that interpretation is entirely wrong and fish biscuits is some kind of Khajiit slang that means something else.
I rarely use Ember, but doesn't she use it while swearing? So it doesn't sound like it's supposed to be something positive? Anyway, these exist, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishcake
It does have that swearing vibe. When she makes a mistake she tends to say, "Oh, fish biscuits!" I guess if moon sugar is what makes food taste good to you, a fish biscuit could seem kind of like an abomination of food.Was he? It's possible. I can't recall him laughing. Mocking. Smug. Smirking. He does that pretty well. That speech he gives us in Sancre Tor about how everyone is going to bow down to him--he might have had some kind of manic laugh there, but I really don't remember such.
I'm not sure why, but for some reason, it always amuses me.
His speech amuses you? Or the images he conjures of himself super big and everyone else super tiny? Because it's kind of amusing; Tharn even comments on it.
Well, he's doomed, then.Realistically, it was probably just a line put in to explain why he wasn't leading the Cultural Exchange this time around, and there was never going to be anything more about his mission. Oh, it was also there to explain why they tried to give us a shock by having him initially appear in the place where the Pact representative was to be found; a bit of misdirection. So, double duty for one throwaway line isn't too shabby.
I see what the intention might have been, but I personally prefer npcs not to randomly show up and disappear again after they've just spoken a few lines.
When it's Rigurt, I really don't mind. I actually was dismayed to see him there the first time I did the quest. I think I said out loud to my computer screen, "You've got to be kidding me...Rigurt?" So their misdirection worked on me. As to whether or not it's a good use of an npc...probably not. 0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I was mostly joking about him being Aldmer. I'm aware of the inconsistencies presented. I think it's interesting/funny how he keeps to the claim of being Aldmer without ever presenting anything to back it up.
You'd be surprised how many people believe it. UESP is full of articles calling him Aldmer and it comes up in related lore-discussions all the time. If people who don't know that much about the lore believe it (probably mostly because they read it somewhere being stated like that), I'm not astounded; but it's a little strange to me if I see it among people who are actually rather knowledgeable about TES lore, because they must have thought a bit about the timeline at some point.I don't think there's any difference, really. But the speech you can get from her in game about being part of the Brotherhood amuses me. An assassin telling you that her assassin group is ok but yours is not.
It might also be a bit of a belief conflict. It's well-known whom the DB worships, but I think many people think of the MT as more secular than it is, since the games don't emphasize that aspect as much as we see it with the DB. But still, they're Mephala worshippers. They believe the souls of everyone they kill was sent to Mephala.Well, I did, too. Because "Worm Cult's back...somehow!" didn't seem like much of a story to me. Oh well.
A wasted opportunity, most of all. This is really what irks me most: They probably won't return for a third time (or at least not within the next decade, probably), so what we get in the current story is possibly the last Mannimarco and Worm Cult lore we'll get.Ok, you're giving it much more complexity than the trope usually has. The way it's used that I don't like is when there's a single event--one single tragic event--in someone's past, and that one event becomes their entire reason for existence. I know we're all shaped by past life experiences; I'm a human being living a life, not a robot, after all.
I know you are, but I generally see astonishingly often how people seem to ignore this fact. Many already fail to understand that not everyone thinks the same way, has the same world view, shares the same values, etc., so the reasons for that, like a different upbringing or different experience, don't even come to their mind. I see weird generalizations all the time ("Everyone likes...", "Everyone knows...", "Everyone has made the experience that,...").I'm comparing his normalcy to the other people in the world of ESO. Most of them are not like him. He is an outlier; therefore not in the norm. It has nothing to do with how weird he might seem to others, or whether or not I can comprehend his motivations.
Then we have a lot of outliers, though. All those cult leaders. All greater explorers. Even every scholar, since most people are most probably not scholars, but farmers, artisans, merchants or other commoners whose life is mostly focussed on manual labor (or trade) and their own village or city.I'm curious, though, which of his ideals and plans you think don't clash with the ideals and plans of the general society of Tamriel. Any of his plans I know about don't end up too well for the general society.
Oh, I didn't only mean Mannimarco when it comes to that. His goals might not be that socially compatible at all I was speaking about all those people in Tamriel who have greater plans for changing the status quo somehow. Leaders of organizations and cults or what ever type of communities. Obviously, "ending the world" might not be a too popular plan. But "ending the war" might be something people agree with much more.You think? Because the Worm Cult looks pretty much the same as they did in base game. They didn't have nuance then, either. Our introduction to them was: hey, they're bad and need defeating.
The base game depiction might not have been too interesting, but what we saw on Artaeum could be seen as a possible hint they'd like to get into more background lore over time. Those scenes wouldn't have been absolutely neccessary to tell the chapter's story, and it would also have been plausible if the Psijics had sealed the whole vault and just acted like nothing ever happened there. But the writers decided to give us this story.For when the New Life Festival begins to pall.
New quests this time, by the way. The old ones will remain in the game, but there will be a new quest npc at the tent.Well that's a bummer.
And even if I get my characters copied next Monday, I'm still not sure whether they'll unlock the East Solstice quests for people who don't want to run through that stupid fortress again then. I suggested it, but there wasn't a reaction yet. It really makes a huge difference for me; if I could just quest, sure, I'd do more testing, maybe even on several characters! But the fortress demotivates me. I don't need to see it again and it's most probably at least 2 hours of time I'd rather do something different.It does have that swearing vibe. When she makes a mistake she tends to say, "Oh, fish biscuits!" I guess if moon sugar is what makes food taste good to you, a fish biscuit could seem kind of like an abomination of food.
I think she doesn't enjoy fishing, either. Although that might be because she probably finds standing around for a long time boring.His speech amuses you? Or the images he conjures of himself super big and everyone else super tiny? Because it's kind of amusing; Tharn even comments on it.
His whole demeanor is amusing. I'm not even sure why.Well, he's doomed, then.
He'll orchestrate the Worm Cult's third return No one will know how and why, but that's probably not important.When it's Rigurt, I really don't mind. I actually was dismayed to see him there the first time I did the quest. I think I said out loud to my computer screen, "You've got to be kidding me...Rigurt?" So their misdirection worked on me. As to whether or not it's a good use of an npc...probably not.
I immediately suspected there must be someone else around somewhere. If it's a more serious matter, even the Skald King wouldn't send Rigurt. Although it would probably be a good opportunity to get rid of him for good.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I was mostly joking about him being Aldmer. I'm aware of the inconsistencies presented. I think it's interesting/funny how he keeps to the claim of being Aldmer without ever presenting anything to back it up.
You'd be surprised how many people believe it. UESP is full of articles calling him Aldmer and it comes up in related lore-discussions all the time. If people who don't know that much about the lore believe it (probably mostly because they read it somewhere being stated like that), I'm not astounded; but it's a little strange to me if I see it among people who are actually rather knowledgeable about TES lore, because they must have thought a bit about the timeline at some point.
I think it's also because there's a lore book where Mannimarco states having been around for some incident in the way back past, the dragon break one. We know the lore books aren't always 100% accurate, that there is author bias in them (I mean the fictional authors, not the real world people who wrote them), but in Tamriel lore there still exists a book that sort of, kind of backs up his Aldmer claim. I know it's not a valid source, as far as these things go, but it does exist.I don't think there's any difference, really. But the speech you can get from her in game about being part of the Brotherhood amuses me. An assassin telling you that her assassin group is ok but yours is not.
It might also be a bit of a belief conflict. It's well-known whom the DB worships, but I think many people think of the MT as more secular than it is, since the games don't emphasize that aspect as much as we see it with the DB. But still, they're Mephala worshippers. They believe the souls of everyone they kill was sent to Mephala.
Honestly there's not much to choose between them, though I do think the Morag Tong might appeal more to those who don't want to get their hands dirty in a grisly ritual--providing they have enough gold. Really, the Tong is the rich person's assassination tool, and the Dark Brotherhood is for everyone.Well, I did, too. Because "Worm Cult's back...somehow!" didn't seem like much of a story to me. Oh well.
A wasted opportunity, most of all. This is really what irks me most: They probably won't return for a third time (or at least not within the next decade, probably), so what we get in the current story is possibly the last Mannimarco and Worm Cult lore we'll get.
It is disappointing, but it does seem, based on the quote from the article, that they weren't really intending to go more into the lore. That is, the Worm Cult was chosen because "everyone already knew" they were bad, and it hearkened back to the game's beginning. A bit of nostalgia. I don't think it's the greatest basis for creating a story, but the game's tenth anniversary and etc.Ok, you're giving it much more complexity than the trope usually has. The way it's used that I don't like is when there's a single event--one single tragic event--in someone's past, and that one event becomes their entire reason for existence. I know we're all shaped by past life experiences; I'm a human being living a life, not a robot, after all.
I know you are, but I generally see astonishingly often how people seem to ignore this fact. Many already fail to understand that not everyone thinks the same way, has the same world view, shares the same values, etc., so the reasons for that, like a different upbringing or different experience, don't even come to their mind. I see weird generalizations all the time ("Everyone likes...", "Everyone knows...", "Everyone has made the experience that,...").
I see those around, too. That's why I do my best to represent my thoughts and opinions with "I" statements. That's actually something we were taught in teacher training--don't start sentences by telling students, "You need to," when what you really mean is "I need you to." Anyway, yes, people do like to claim their experiences as universal.I'm comparing his normalcy to the other people in the world of ESO. Most of them are not like him. He is an outlier; therefore not in the norm. It has nothing to do with how weird he might seem to others, or whether or not I can comprehend his motivations.
Then we have a lot of outliers, though. All those cult leaders. All greater explorers. Even every scholar, since most people are most probably not scholars, but farmers, artisans, merchants or other commoners whose life is mostly focussed on manual labor (or trade) and their own village or city.
It does seem like a lot, because that's who we're interacting with and learning about. Kind of like how history is taught in general--the focus is on the people who did the different thing, broke with norms, and were somehow notable. Yet compared to how many people there actually are (or were, at the time), the explorers, scholars and cult leaders are still outliers. There have been plenty of serial killers throughout time, and we know about many of them, but that doesn't make them the norm. Same with explorers and even scholars.I'm curious, though, which of his ideals and plans you think don't clash with the ideals and plans of the general society of Tamriel. Any of his plans I know about don't end up too well for the general society.
Oh, I didn't only mean Mannimarco when it comes to that. His goals might not be that socially compatible at all I was speaking about all those people in Tamriel who have greater plans for changing the status quo somehow. Leaders of organizations and cults or what ever type of communities. Obviously, "ending the world" might not be a too popular plan. But "ending the war" might be something people agree with much more.
Ah, I see. Yeah, it was easy for me to understand why someone might follow the Ascendant Lord, but I don't think I can ever fully understand the mindset of a Dagonite.You think? Because the Worm Cult looks pretty much the same as they did in base game. They didn't have nuance then, either. Our introduction to them was: hey, they're bad and need defeating.
The base game depiction might not have been too interesting, but what we saw on Artaeum could be seen as a possible hint they'd like to get into more background lore over time. Those scenes wouldn't have been absolutely neccessary to tell the chapter's story, and it would also have been plausible if the Psijics had sealed the whole vault and just acted like nothing ever happened there. But the writers decided to give us this story.
I always looked at the Artaeum flashbacks as Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco lore as it intersected with Psijic lore. I think the Psijics did seal it off and act like it had never happened, because the only reason we found out about it was the npc had stolen an artifact so she could explore it and find out the truth. I really don't think the intent was to give Worm Cult lore.
For Worm Cult lore, we have that pamphlet that circulates on Solstice, which actually did more to interest me in the average cultist than anything else I'd seen. It at least gave ideas for some of their motivations--they might be in it for world domination, or maybe they just want to practice necromancy in peace, or perhaps they really want the warm bed and regular meals.
Oh, that's cool! I don't much care for the New Life repeatable quests. As far as lore goes, they're interesting enough--the different ways the different cultures celebrate--but I don't care to actually participate in them. Usually I just do the Old Life quest to see which ghost of my character's past is going to haunt him. That quest can actually be quite moving, depending on who shows up.Well that's a bummer.
And even if I get my characters copied next Monday, I'm still not sure whether they'll unlock the East Solstice quests for people who don't want to run through that stupid fortress again then. I suggested it, but there wasn't a reaction yet. It really makes a huge difference for me; if I could just quest, sure, I'd do more testing, maybe even on several characters! But the fortress demotivates me. I don't need to see it again and it's most probably at least 2 hours of time I'd rather do something different.
I understand they want people to test the fortress and all, but it does seem like it would be better to have all the content easily accessible so people could test it over and over, particularly if something gets changed or fixed.It does have that swearing vibe. When she makes a mistake she tends to say, "Oh, fish biscuits!" I guess if moon sugar is what makes food taste good to you, a fish biscuit could seem kind of like an abomination of food.
I think she doesn't enjoy fishing, either. Although that might be because she probably finds standing around for a long time boring.
I've heard she doesn't like fishing; I've never fished while I've had her active. The character I have who runs with Ember doesn't do much standing around, either.
Lol! Is it possible to make the Worm Cult even more bumbling?When it's Rigurt, I really don't mind. I actually was dismayed to see him there the first time I did the quest. I think I said out loud to my computer screen, "You've got to be kidding me...Rigurt?" So their misdirection worked on me. As to whether or not it's a good use of an npc...probably not.
I immediately suspected there must be someone else around somewhere. If it's a more serious matter, even the Skald King wouldn't send Rigurt. Although it would probably be a good opportunity to get rid of him for good.
I don't place as much dependence on the Skald King's judgment as you do, then. He's the guy who noped out of the peace talks in High Isle because he was smitten with a new girlfriend, if I recall correctly. I do realize the actual reason was probably voice actor related, but the writers could have given him any reason at all to send his son in his stead, and they chose that one. And, yes, it would have been a good opportunity to send Rigurt to his doom, but since the Skald King apparently gave him a different "secret mission," he'll probably scrape through it all right. I wonder if that mission was in any way related to mead.0
