Tone-deaf AUA on Reddit

renne · September 17

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

Sorry, it's me. I'm standing behind them holding a chicken to their heads making nerfing stuff literally the only possible option they can do. If they even think of buffing stuff they'll get the chicken.

Sorry, I promise I'll stop, but they're probably still so scared of the chicken I don't think it will change anything.

Koshka · September 17

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

It makes zero sense. They dropped Subclassing with pretty much no consideration about how it would affect combat, giving everyone who uses it properly a massive power boost, but they won't hybridize potions and food because it "could" be too strong? What's the logic here?

Exactly.
This logic they use to balance the game seem to be wildly incorrect and completely disconnected from the actual game. They cannot buff underperforming stuff and update consumables because it would somehow break the balance? And random subclassing update did not break the balance, then?
I appreciate them trying to communicate at last. But alas, it just shows how out of touch some of the devs are. I don't understand this. There must be a way to see player statistics and such, and it boggles my mind that they make balancing decisions based on some abstract design philosophy and spreadsheets instead of real data and player feedback.

Rkindaleft · September 17

Koshka wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

It makes zero sense. They dropped Subclassing with pretty much no consideration about how it would affect combat, giving everyone who uses it properly a massive power boost, but they won't hybridize potions and food because it "could" be too strong? What's the logic here?

Exactly.
This logic they use to balance the game seem to be wildly incorrect and completely disconnected from the actual game. They cannot buff underperforming stuff and update consumables because it would somehow break the balance? And random subclassing update did not break the balance, then?
I appreciate them trying to communicate at last. But alas, it just shows how out of touch some of the devs are. I don't understand this. There must be a way to see player statistics and such, and it boggles my mind that they make balancing decisions based on some abstract design philosophy and spreadsheets instead of real data and player feedback.

My main problem with this talk about whether or not they can buff something because they’re concerned about breaking the balance wouldn’t even be much of a problem if the logic was consistent, but it isn’t.

So, you can’t hybridise consumables because it “could” be too strong. You don’t want to buff pointless and redundant sets because in your words “all sets have a place.”

I’m really sorry if this comes off as rude, but I genuinely want to understand - where was this thought process when you made any update to the game that caused a power spike? Mythics? Subclassing without adjusting obvious outliers? Arcanist beam even? Now, I do happen to like some of these things, but if you are legitimately concerned about the power creep, or giving too much power to the players, then why were those fine and pushed through full steam ahead, but this isn’t?

Nobody has ever said “if you gave Major Brutality and Major Sorcery to the same potion it would be overpowered.” There’s like, a gazillion sources of these buffs now and basically 90% of DPS on live have it anyway because they use Herald of the Tome. The combat team seem to hyper-fixated on issues that aren't even issues, not to mention the complete misunderstanding about how combat actually works in modern ESO.

Nemesis7884 · September 17

Spreadsheet balancing and standartization of everything might have made sense before subclassing....but now it makes 0 sense...they should rather form the skill lines around specific themes, strengths and weaknesses to make them more interesting....in a paper stone scissor style fashion

Zyaneth_Bal · September 17

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Spreadsheet balancing and standartization of everything might have made sense before subclassing....but now it makes 0 sense...they should rather form the skill lines around specific themes, strengths and weaknesses to make them more interesting....in a paper stone scissor style fashion

It never made sense. Standard should be a margin that leaves room for variety and balancing should be preformed with whole skill lines, classes and playstyles in mind, skills don’t exist in a void. All their way of thinking achieved is loss of fun playstyles and mechanics, many skills becoming much the same and feeling bland. Combat has lost a lot of it’s depth.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

It does have a place. And that place is in the “outdated” pile. The equipment bloat in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. Seriously, take the time to read through a list of every armor set in the game and tell me all of them have a place in modern ESO. Saying they still have a place just because they came first is like saying the bow and arrow still has a place in warfare.

They aren't outdated. They are pre-cursors, that are replaced later down the progression line. Not everyone chews through content, some take their time. The bow and arrow does have a place in warfare if you don't have any other weapons and only bows and arrows.

But it doesnt even fit in to the progression line. Wretched is a crafted set, meaning anyone looking for a recovery set will pick that up before any set that drops from a dungeon. Amber Plasm is worthless. It does not fit into any sort of progression, and is outdated and outclassed by a set that is easier to obtain and more flexible.

tomofhyrule · September 17

I'm not going to be concerned about the unfinished hybridization or the totally useless sets. I know what I need and then I'll just use that.

What I am royally angry about though is how beholden to their spreadsheet they are... at some points. And at others, they're like "lmao whatever!"

WHAT. GIVES. WITH. BALANCE?!?!

They are so concerned about balance and "keeping horizontal progression" (let's ignore the fact that most updates do add a new thing that increases DPS to let power creep chug along) that they won't consider giving power to underused things, and then they see no issue whatsoever with dropping an update allowing players to stack obscene passives and condense to a singular meta with a 50% increase in power... as long as you're Subclassing 'correctly.'

Did that fit into your speadsheet?! That much power creep at once?! And you're okay with this?!?!?

One of the big quotes I saw from Brian was

Content teams have built around those standards over the years as well, to which admittedly, Subclassing and subsequent patches have disrupted a bit (and we expected some of that.) We are working to address that as well with long term plans.

Ok, so you expected Subclassing to disrupt your standards. And the only thing you did to prep for that was... to nerf DK sustain into the ground and force sorcs to use pets. And since then, nothing else has been done to mitigate the effects of Subclassing, beyond trying to nerf every source of ultigen (mostly reverted, thankfully)

Nobody believes you "are working to address that" when the U48 PTS notes come out with literally no changes. We're going to be stuck with this unbalanced mess for 9 months at minimum until U49 in March has a chance to address something... but we all know that Subclassing's balance disaster is just going to be swept under the rug because of the new stuff that we're supposed to be so excited about in 2026.

Zyaneth_Bal · September 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

It does have a place. And that place is in the “outdated” pile. The equipment bloat in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. Seriously, take the time to read through a list of every armor set in the game and tell me all of them have a place in modern ESO. Saying they still have a place just because they came first is like saying the bow and arrow still has a place in warfare.

They aren't outdated. They are pre-cursors, that are replaced later down the progression line. Not everyone chews through content, some take their time. The bow and arrow does have a place in warfare if you don't have any other weapons and only bows and arrows.

As it has been said, some sets aren’t only straight up upgrades over others but are easier to acquire at the same time, so for the most part bring up progression is irrelevant. Moreover, we know for a fact that’s not the reason as zos themselves state that sets are about horizontal progression, not vertical.

rothan117 · September 17

They got themselves on a hamster wheel of having to create new sets for every single content release. Over time the sheer number means there are going to be a large number of sets that are next to worthless. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, people expect new sets with every content release but ZOS is constrained by not wanting to create more powerful sets each time to avoid power creep. It is likely that all the likely optimal combinations of abilities and stats have already been used at this point in creating sets and new sets are just ZOS going through the motions because new sets are expected.

They should never have started with the sets concept in a game that does not have level increases with every expansion. Games like WoW that have a level increase with every expansion, old sets become obsolete. But with ESO's level system, all sets remain relevant forever, narrowing the options for making new sets with every new set that is introduced.

AngryPenguin · September 17

Why are any discussions related to ESO taking place anywhere other than the dedicated forum for such discussions?

Good grief! Were they trying to hide this discussion from us or something by putting it on reddit and not even telling people there was a discussion going on there? I'm on the list to get announcements and advertising and got no heads up about this.

Destai · September 17

rothan117 wrote: »

They got themselves on a hamster wheel of having to create new sets for every single content release. Over time the sheer number means there are going to be a large number of sets that are next to worthless. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, people expect new sets with every content release but ZOS is constrained by not wanting to create more powerful sets each time to avoid power creep. It is likely that all the likely optimal combinations of abilities and stats have already been used at this point in creating sets and new sets are just ZOS going through the motions because new sets are expected.

They should never have started with the sets concept in a game that does not have level increases with every expansion. Games like WoW that have a level increase with every expansion, old sets become obsolete. But with ESO's level system, all sets remain relevant forever, narrowing the options for making new sets with every new set that is introduced.

It's definitely unsustainable.

I think part of the problem with sets is that they're the main, easiest-to-obtain reward for a zone or dungeon. While itemization is a problem, it all goes back to the reward structure.

Mounts, skins, houses related to any piece of content is either a time-gated deal or behind some difficult achievement. Just taking dungeons for instance - the motifs are an attractive reward. But - I have to do the content on veteran, which can be pretty challenging, and hope the RNG is kind to me. Or I have to wait months for the motif book to enter the store and shell out $40. This has created an environment where sets are the only reward for many players. Because of that, creating a new zone or dungeon without new sets isn't viable.

Soarora · September 17

rothan117 wrote: »

They got themselves on a hamster wheel of having to create new sets for every single content release. Over time the sheer number means there are going to be a large number of sets that are next to worthless. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, people expect new sets with every content release but ZOS is constrained by not wanting to create more powerful sets each time to avoid power creep. It is likely that all the likely optimal combinations of abilities and stats have already been used at this point in creating sets and new sets are just ZOS going through the motions because new sets are expected.

They should never have started with the sets concept in a game that does not have level increases with every expansion. Games like WoW that have a level increase with every expansion, old sets become obsolete. But with ESO's level system, all sets remain relevant forever, narrowing the options for making new sets with every new set that is introduced.

At least personally, I’d rather new sets be reskins of what we already have then be dead on release. Like a shock version of Frostbite and a poison version of Pillar of Nirn.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Why are any discussions related to ESO taking place anywhere other than the dedicated forum for such discussions?

Good grief! Were they trying to hide this discussion from us or something by putting it on reddit and not even telling people there was a discussion going on there? I'm on the list to get announcements and advertising and got no heads up about this.

It was mentioned on the forums. We’ve been told they did it on reddit because reddit makes threads of conversation much easier to follow, which to be fair, is true.

AngryPenguin · September 17

Soarora wrote: »

rothan117 wrote: »

They got themselves on a hamster wheel of having to create new sets for every single content release. Over time the sheer number means there are going to be a large number of sets that are next to worthless. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place, people expect new sets with every content release but ZOS is constrained by not wanting to create more powerful sets each time to avoid power creep. It is likely that all the likely optimal combinations of abilities and stats have already been used at this point in creating sets and new sets are just ZOS going through the motions because new sets are expected.

They should never have started with the sets concept in a game that does not have level increases with every expansion. Games like WoW that have a level increase with every expansion, old sets become obsolete. But with ESO's level system, all sets remain relevant forever, narrowing the options for making new sets with every new set that is introduced.

At least personally, I’d rather new sets be reskins of what we already have then be dead on release. Like a shock version of Frostbite and a poison version of Pillar of Nirn.

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Why are any discussions related to ESO taking place anywhere other than the dedicated forum for such discussions?

Good grief! Were they trying to hide this discussion from us or something by putting it on reddit and not even telling people there was a discussion going on there? I'm on the list to get announcements and advertising and got no heads up about this.

It was mentioned on the forums. We’ve been told they did it on reddit because reddit makes threads of conversation much easier to follow, which to be fair, is true.

Seems a bit ironic that ZOS doesn't even use their own dedicated forum for ESO to me. I mean, I get nervous about every post I make on this forum because you just never know what's going to get flagged for who knows what, but I wouldn't think that ZOS employees would have to worry about that.

sleepy_worm · September 17

Delete the sheet!

BretonMage · September 17

Soarora wrote: »

It was mentioned on the forums. We’ve been told they did it on reddit because reddit makes threads of conversation much easier to follow, which to be fair, is true.

Only for popular posts, though. The others get buried.

S2RDK · September 17

I get the setup can get to overpowered, so people doesn't want to play the game.
But I don't really feel that we are close to that problem.
So many had a lot of fun with the subclass arcanist, and there has always been a favorite class in ESO (at least in the five years I have played). People really took the possibilities in subclassing and ran with them - a clear sign that this game has some very dedicated players.
That must count for something.

heaven13 · September 17

Radiate77 wrote: »

What is wrong with sets being equal but different?
Why can’t we have that?

Because ever since hybridization became a thing, there is no "different" anymore.

Stamicka · September 17

Yea whenever I see anything that Brian Wheeler, Rich Lambert, or other developers post or say, I'm reminded that I should probably let ESO go for good. They just have such different design philosophies and visions for the game than what I'm wanting out of it.

We'll see how Vengeance goes, but it's probably time to completely move on unless there's a leadership shakeup.

Gabriel_H · September 17

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wretched is a crafted set, meaning anyone looking for a recovery set will pick that up before any set that drops from a dungeon.

Only if they are doing content out of order. For those doing content chronologically AP has it's place. Not everyone has a min/max mindset. Some people play an RPG for the RP.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 17

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wretched is a crafted set, meaning anyone looking for a recovery set will pick that up before any set that drops from a dungeon.

Only if they are doing content out of order. For those doing content chronologically AP has it's place. Not everyone has a min/max mindset. Some people play an RPG for the RP.

What content are you even referring to? Crafted sets are designed to be content agnostic. It's why you can have any crafting station in your house/a guild house. They're meant to be sets accessible right from the get go by anyone.

tomofhyrule · September 17

S2RDK wrote: »

I get the setup can get to overpowered, so people doesn't want to play the game.
But I don't really feel that we are close to that problem.
So many had a lot of fun with the subclass arcanist, and there has always been a favorite class in ESO (at least in the five years I have played). People really took the possibilities in subclassing and ran with them - a clear sign that this game has some very dedicated players.
That must count for something.

Is this people all slotting Arcanist because they think it’s fun? Or because it’s strong so they’re forced to?

This is a bit of a “tail wagging the dog” situation. Yes, Subclassing allows players to slot what they want to have fun. But the balance (or lack thereof) means that anyone who is not slotting Herald, Assassination, and then either Aedric Spear, Dawn’s Wrath, or Ardent Flame as the third line is doing significantly less damage than anyone with any other setup… and that includes all players who choose not to Subclass.

Reading the stickied “tell us about your experience with U46 and Subclassing” thread shows that it’s not uniformly one thought or the other. It actually seems fairly mixed between people who love it and hate it, both for their own reasons - the people who love it love the freedom, the people who hate it hate the imbalance.

Again, these are not mutually exclusive. Had Subclassing been balanced before releasing it (and balance been adjusted in later patches), then the people who dislike Subclassing would not be as put off by it and there wouldn’t be so much tension. Having balance so people truly could play the way they want instead of one setup being stupidly OP would still allow pro-Subclass people to play whatever, but then the pro-balance group would be happy as well.

Soarora · September 17

S2RDK wrote: »

I get the setup can get to overpowered, so people doesn't want to play the game.
But I don't really feel that we are close to that problem.
So many had a lot of fun with the subclass arcanist, and there has always been a favorite class in ESO (at least in the five years I have played). People really took the possibilities in subclassing and ran with them - a clear sign that this game has some very dedicated players.
That must count for something.

Say that to the people who are suddenly able to full burn through every dungeon mechanic on various HM fights. Not that the players weren’t good to begin with but the level of optimization and mechanical understanding required to burn has dropped blatantly.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wretched is a crafted set, meaning anyone looking for a recovery set will pick that up before any set that drops from a dungeon.

Only if they are doing content out of order. For those doing content chronologically AP has it's place. Not everyone has a min/max mindset. Some people play an RPG for the RP.

Even with no outside assistance and doing every single thing in some sort of order, most sets would be skipped over. Mother’s sorrow is still gonna be a better choice than Netch’s Touch. I also cannot be convinced more than a handful of people are playing that way. My casual experience was “oh this set is cool and from the place I’m in, I’m going to keep using this set” and then I never swapped the sets out (livewire x trappings of invigoration, by the way) until I got to trying to optimize and had access to every set.

ESO_Nightingale · 1:13AM

Soarora wrote: »

S2RDK wrote: »

I get the setup can get to overpowered, so people doesn't want to play the game.
But I don't really feel that we are close to that problem.
So many had a lot of fun with the subclass arcanist, and there has always been a favorite class in ESO (at least in the five years I have played). People really took the possibilities in subclassing and ran with them - a clear sign that this game has some very dedicated players.
That must count for something.

Say that to the people who are suddenly able to full burn through every dungeon mechanic on various HM fights. Not that the players weren’t good to begin with but the level of optimization and mechanical understanding required to burn has dropped blatantly.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Wretched is a crafted set, meaning anyone looking for a recovery set will pick that up before any set that drops from a dungeon.

Only if they are doing content out of order. For those doing content chronologically AP has it's place. Not everyone has a min/max mindset. Some people play an RPG for the RP.

Even with no outside assistance and doing every single thing in some sort of order, most sets would be skipped over. Mother’s sorrow is still gonna be a better choice than Netch’s Touch. I also cannot be convinced more than a handful of people are playing that way. My casual experience was “oh this set is cool and from the place I’m in, I’m going to keep using this set” and then I never swapped the sets out (livewire x trappings of invigoration, by the way) until I got to trying to optimize and had access to every set.

I would have at least expected fully unusable sets like netch's and ysgramors birthright to be reworked. They're so bad that even if 100% of your damage was of that type, there'd be better sets. Not to mention the loss youd have by restricting your build so much.

LonePirate · 2:54AM

Destai wrote: »

Brian's responses were pretty discouraging; it feels pointless to provide them feedback.

This is the key takeaway from that Reddit AUA. Feedback for ZOS has a lifespan shorter than a jar of honey sitting in front of Winnie the Pooh.

React · 1:49PM

It really was tragic reading their (mainly Brain Wheeler's) responses in that AUA.

Finishing hybridization by buffing the consumables isn't possible because the consumables would be too strong and they're worried about balance? What? You just introduced subclassing which is the most disgustingly imbalanced system ever and you haven't made any balance adjustments at all since it's introduction. To pretend that balance concerns are the reason why hybridization is unfinished (amongst many other systems they've introduced over the years) is laughable.

Further, the comments around set bloat are asinine. I have a feeling they're simply unwilling to do the work necessary to address this issue as it has been compounded by YEARS of pointless sets being added and old ones being power crept, so instead they're opting with Brian's logic of "everything has it's place". When it is obvious to casual and veteran players alike that there are genuinely HUNDREDS of sets that are not ever worth equipping in any setting whatsoever.

I don't know what to even call it at this point other than serious incompetence.

tomofhyrule · 2:14PM

I definitely think one of the best things they could do to try to restore some of the good will in the community is have Wheeler come out and give a plan for U49 as soon as possible. With specifics, not more of this “hold tight, we’re so excited to get you information when we can!” nonsense.

What is the plan for balance? You’ve admitted that it was expected that Subclassing would affect balance, and yet nothing beyond epic DK sustain nerfs was done to combat that. We now have had Subclassing in the wild for 4 months, so you definitely have your data on what is chosen and what is not… and the fact that there is a large faction of players who prefer to stay unSubclassed. Essentially, give us the combat section for the U49 patch notes so we can already start giving feedback. And yes, as has been proven time and time again, the vet players can actually (and accurately) predict player sentiment and give feedback just from patch notes, even if some devs want to believe it’s all “knee-jerk reactions.”

It’s inconceivable that the Combat team lead is saying that they know and expected balance to be awry after U46, and then decided it would be fine not to address it for 6+ months. Do you really think so little of your non-“I’m just here until TES6 releases” players that you intend to drive them off?!

ZOS_Kevin · 2:27PM

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Why are any discussions related to ESO taking place anywhere other than the dedicated forum for such discussions?

Good grief! Were they trying to hide this discussion from us or something by putting it on reddit and not even telling people there was a discussion going on there? I'm on the list to get announcements and advertising and got no heads up about this.

Wanted to clear this point up. We posted on the forum that we would be doing an AMA on Reddit, days before the AMA happened. Just to give a heads up that it was happening. So we did not attempt to hide the discussion. We wanted as many people to participate as possible.

The reason we chose to do the AMA on Reddit is because the formatting for threaded discussions is far easier to follow than in our forum threads. We have looked into how we could make the experience better on the forum, but Vanilla Forums (our provider) doesn't support threaded conversations.

ZOS_Kevin · 2:30PM

Also wanted to follow up here. Thank you for the feedback on the AUA. We are taking this feedback to the team to see how we can improve these in the future. The goal with these is to provide a pipeline for communication. Especially with recent changes to leadership, we felt it was important to have an AUA that covered a wide mount of topics. But we are taking in the feedback to improve these in the future along with some of the commentary about the game to share with our team for continued improvements.

SneaK · 2:49PM

Revert to 1.6 please

Really though, just stop dumbing the game down. The hybridization update and armor updates started the snowball, now it’s a full on aids snowman with each of the three sections being 3 of 4 subclasses.

Unless you are a solo PvEr, the subclassing update is pure garbage.

Vulkunne · 3:14PM

Djiku wrote: »

The recent AUA on Reddit was just terrible. I can't put it any other way. How you can be so blind and defensive to reasonable feedback regarding consumables and sets is just baffling. I want to be constructive and leave it at that.
Just listen to Skinny Cheeks. He is making valid points and is a longtime standing community member and content creator, so he knows what the community is worried about.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w0BbaObAw_k&t=401s

I am totally against making any adjustments to consumables. Wheeler is right to push back on this and to make a strong case for having this approached in a slower, more constructive manner. If the balance for classes is messed up already and we all know it to be true, then why rush making changes to consumables? It's a bad idea right now and Wheeler has the right of it on this one. The way players are dealing out damage in PvP, a health pot barely covers it. Just barely worth even having tbh. I can only imagine nerfring pots or food any further at this time. *Cringe*

I know there are many different influencers and people saying alot of different things right now but please remember, not all of us play this game to their expectations or their 'level' if you will. I urge restraint, continue moving forward slowly until everyone has their confidence back in what changes you're making, regardless of what anyone else is saying. Cause for some, their Guilds and Ball groups, do not represent anyone else but themselves and the things they want to serve them. Please please, don't forget about the rest of us because playing the game (if you can even call it that) with some of these jokers -for years- has proven they only care about themselves.

As far as ZOS is concerned, while I cannot and would never try to speak for them, I would think it's safe to say the ZOS we're dealing with now is not the same as before. I've gone thru similar 'events' that bring major changes within a company and um... things change. Never expect it to be exactly the same afterwards. Not necessarily for the worst but generally speaking new leadership brings new changes and this is the season for change. My recommendation is to dial back some of the grief and give them time to adjust. Remember, think about how the people who work for ZOS are feeling atm and realize that the communication and the way we thought about things from before is going to be basically starting over with potentially a different team, with different internal structure, with a newer approach. Be grateful they're only taking (1) patch cycle (so far) for catching up with things. Because realistically, it could (and probably should) take longer than that especially with the existing issues.

It's ok to have standards and try to understand things but I think we all need to consider adjusting our expectations. I'm sure ZOS will get back in the saddle when they are ready to move forward. But until then it might actually be better to leave the goal post where it is and give them time to adjust. And that could take a while, it's just how it is and none of us can change that. This horse has a new pair of shoes and a new rider. Slow down speedracers. Dodge City will still be there.