Tone-deaf AUA on Reddit

Djiku · September 16

The recent AUA on Reddit was just terrible. I can't put it any other way. How you can be so blind and defensive to reasonable feedback regarding consumables and sets is just baffling. I want to be constructive and leave it at that.
Just listen to Skinny Cheeks. He is making valid points and is a longtime standing community member and content creator, so he knows what the community is worried about.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w0BbaObAw_k&t=401s

Soarora · September 16

Yeah… I keep thinking about that… like we already know ZOS spreadsheet balances even when we keep begging them not to but to see it so plainly is bizarre.

Destai · September 16

Brian's responses were pretty discouraging; it feels pointless to provide them feedback. It's all about the spreadsheets and data for them. Nothing else really seems to sway them. If people like SkinnyCheeks can’t get through to them, then I don’t see how the average person can. And of course, the conversation between the two stops. It seems like SC landed some really good points and those points are now going unaddressed. We really need some fresh perspectives on the combat team.

As for the AUA: I'm happy it happened but it was pretty unsatisfying overall.

It seems like we're stuck in this loop:

Us: can we have more information and insight into the game's future?
Them: we don't want to share things before they're ready. Things might change.
Us: Ok, but we're fine with things changing. Our feedback needs to be considered sooner, too many controversial changes.
Them: <leaves conversation>

This is what has to change.

Treeshka · September 16

I am pretty sure nobody will outrage if they just make potions give both buffs. Major Prophecy and Savagery. Major Sorcery and Brutality.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 16

How any of the devs can, with a completely straight face, say that "every set in the game has its place" is baffling to me.

What is Amber Plasm good for? It's a straight downgrade of Wretched Vitality, as it's less recovery/less stat dense and requires that you double bar the set. It comes from a difficult dungeon (vs being a crafted set with Wretched) so you can't even use the excuses of "Oh well it's slightly worse but easier to get/better for newer players" or "Oh well it's in a more optimal armor weight", since literally anyone can ask someone to craft Wretched in any weight for them in Zone and they'd have it in 10 minutes tops for free. It's not even better uptime, as the proc condition on Wretched happens simply by existing and has no cooldown.

There are literally hundreds of sets like this that are strictly worse than other sets while also being harder to acquire. Wheeler stating that "every set has it's place" is so categorically false it's just disheartening to read that coming from a lead developer.

Editing to add: if the only reason for a set to be worse than another set is "in case the player doesn't know about the better set", that doesn't justify a set's existence; it means the set system is obtuse and confusing.

ApoAlaia · September 16

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

Orbital78 · September 16

I'd like to see a global usage stats or chart, ZoS.

Lysorris · September 16

#consumablesgate is real.

I never seen such bad responses EVER form game dev that specializes in combat for their own game.... That reddit AUA wasn't bad - unless you read replies of that one dev.

Are we going crazy? "Balancing consumables" is game breaking and adding subclasses is not? All/almost all sets usable? In what game? And clearly they don't care about any of the feedback even when someone who is VERY devoted to game and community provides it. I don't think it's okay.

I know that this year supposed to be different, transition year, a lot of big systems that people are witing for and require more time to develop. Content there was less, but it is something I would be able to live with if not for the awful combat related changes that we are given all the time that nobody asked for. It's hard to enjoy little that we got when major part of the gameplay sucks.

colossalvoids · September 16

"No ETA", but for like what, 4-5 years already? 🤣

Jaimeh · September 16

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

My guess is that they think merging stats on potions might make it possible for players to get away with different foods/potions combos that give them an extra edge, and I assume they don't want that edge (nevermind the power that subclassing gave us), and that's what they refer to in terms of then having to readjust things. Only a guess, but I think in order to be thorough after introducing such a change, they will have to go through every possible thing it might affect and they might not want to do this right now (we all know how unexpected stuff pop out down the line every single time they change stuff, so there's not a good track record anyway).

Rkindaleft · September 16

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

It makes zero sense. They dropped Subclassing with pretty much no consideration about how it would affect combat, giving everyone who uses it properly a massive power boost, but they won't hybridize potions and food because it "could" be too strong? What's the logic here?

zaria · September 16

Rkindaleft wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was mystified by the answers.

The comments about the sets were perplexing enough however the comments about 'having to nerf substantially the consumables if they were to touch them'... I can't wrap my head around that.

'Have to' why? based on what logic? and who is the intended audience? more importantly who is 'making you do it'?

However it does explain why I find some changes baffling. They weren't intended for us the players. They were for whomever is 'making them do it'.

It makes zero sense. They dropped Subclassing with pretty much no consideration about how it would affect combat, giving everyone who uses it properly a massive power boost, but they won't hybridize potions and food because it "could" be too strong? What's the logic here?

Its about somehow missing the plot

In part its an skill issue
And yes this happened then playing Oblivion. Lex randomly wandered in at the end of the thief guild quest line.

Gabriel_H · September 16

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

What is Amber Plasm good for? It's a straight downgrade of Wretched Vitality, as it's less recovery/less stat dense and requires that you double bar the set. It comes from a difficult dungeon.

Progression and release date. AP is the pre-cursor to WV and pre-dates it by 5 years. LIke it or not that is a "place" in the game. As for difficulty, it drops on normal and is not hard to farm.

Gabriel_H · September 16

Jaimeh wrote: »

My guess is that they think merging stats on potions might make it possible for players to get away with different foods/potions combos that give them an extra edge, and I assume they don't want that edge (nevermind the power that subclassing gave us), and that's what they refer to in terms of then having to readjust things. Only a guess, but I think in order to be thorough after introducing such a change, they will have to go through every possible thing it might affect and they might not want to do this right now (we all know how unexpected stuff pop out down the line every single time they change stuff, so there's not a good track record anyway).

It's the opposite. Having hybrid potions would make sub-classing less required, and they seem to have bet the farm on that working out for them.

U48 Patch Notes speak volumes: "Class specific leaderboards have also been removed. We are taking a look at leaderboards to better streamline the experience overall. The goal is to make leaderboards make a little more sense in a post-subclassing world and to have a more unified and fair experience for players."

They expect everyone to sub-class, and don't seem to understand a lot of players don't/won't. I don't know how they expect a "fair experience for players" when a pure class not only struggles to compete but is also pretty much excluded (there are exceptions) from end-game.

The trial leaderboards are going to be hilarious if they still show the base class, it'll be arcanists all the way down for the DDs, with the occassional smattering of a DK tank and Warden healer.

Oblivion_Protocol · September 16

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Progression and release date. AP is the pre-cursor to WV and pre-dates it by 5 years. LIke it or not that is a "place" in the game. As for difficulty, it drops on normal and is not hard to farm.

It does have a place. And that place is in the “outdated” pile. The equipment bloat in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. Seriously, take the time to read through a list of every armor set in the game and tell me all of them have a place in modern ESO. Saying they still have a place just because they came first is like saying the bow and arrow still has a place in warfare.

Morvan · 12:00AM

Wheeler’s comments made me lose all hope of ever having our feedback properly addressed. The combat team feels completely out of touch with the game right now, which is really sad to see.

ESO_Nightingale · 12:17AM

As someone who's been here a long time I'd say that i appreciated that they did the reddit AMA and i can't fault them for trying. But reading Brian Wheeler's comments had my mouth open in literal disbelief. While I don't think it's fair to say X person should be fired, i completely understand why people are saying it.

I think it's unnacceptable that the lead combat person has seemingly no solid understanding of how the game fundamentally works at a player's level.

Techwolf_Lupindo · 12:33AM

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

As someone who's been here a long time I'd say that i appreciated that they did the reddit AMA and i can't fault them for trying. But reading Brian Wheeler's comments had my mouth open in literal disbelief. While I don't think it's fair to say X person should be fired, i completely understand why people are saying it.

I think it's unnacceptable that the lead combat person has seemingly no solid understanding of how the game fundamentally works at a player's level.

I was hopeing that the combat lead before the lay-offs and management changes would move that person to someplace where he could be of more use of his skills or just flat out layed offed. I did not know his name back then, but I do now.

fizzybeef · 1:11AM

It all started with the hybridisation, making hundred of sets useless.

Djiku wrote: »

The recent AUA on Reddit was just terrible. I can't put it any other way. How you can be so blind and defensive to reasonable feedback regarding consumables and sets is just baffling. I want to be constructive and leave it at that.
Just listen to Skinny Cheeks. He is making valid points and is a longtime standing community member and content creator, so he knows what the community is worried about.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w0BbaObAw_k&t=401s

Btw the comments under that video are destructive.

Rkindaleft · 1:30AM

This might not be the exact thread for this, but it’s so frustrating.

When people ask for greater communication, they don’t just want more developer appearances on the forum and QnAs. They want the difficult questions to be answered and they want their issues actually acknowledged. All you need to do is scroll through the pages in General, Bug Reports and the PTS section to see dozens of the same topics being brought up constantly. If you want some examples of stuff that people wanted to hear communication about, well:

Why didn’t you take into consideration the feedback about the Templar jabs rework?

Why did it take literal years to address concerns regarding the Grim Focus perma glow?

Why was the decision made to not run the U35 QnA session despite the update getting near universal negative feedback?

What are the Devs intended goal when it comes to combat and what is the thought process behind the decision you have made? (This reddit post and the point about consumables is a great example of this).

Subclassing was a pretty divisive update. Lots of people love it and lots of people dislike it. Hundreds of players left feedback about the update on social media and here on the forums and the majority of it wasn’t taken into account. Why was that the case?

How can bugs that have been in the game for years go unfixed despite hundreds or thousands of reports?

If feedback isn’t taken into account on the forums, where should we go to give it?

Each of these issues has caused problems to players in some capacity. Yet, every time anyone brings these up it’s met with crickets. When people want an increase in communication this is what they mean.

Radiate77 · 1:32AM

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

How any of the devs can, with a completely straight face, say that "every set in the game has its place" is baffling to me.

What is Amber Plasm good for? It's a straight downgrade of Wretched Vitality, as it's less recovery/less stat dense and requires that you double bar the set. It comes from a difficult dungeon (vs being a crafted set with Wretched) so you can't even use the excuses of "Oh well it's slightly worse but easier to get/better for newer players" or "Oh well it's in a more optimal armor weight", since literally anyone can ask someone to craft Wretched in any weight for them in Zone and they'd have it in 10 minutes tops for free. It's not even better uptime, as the proc condition on Wretched happens simply by existing and has no cooldown.

There are literally hundreds of sets like this that are strictly worse than other sets while also being harder to acquire. Wheeler stating that "every set has it's place" is so categorically false it's just disheartening to read that coming from a lead developer.

Editing to add: if the only reason for a set to be worse than another set is "in case the player doesn't know about the better set", that doesn't justify a set's existence; it means the set system is obtuse and confusing.

Hunt Leader vs Essence Thief

One requires you to farm an Arena, one requires you to farm a dungeon. One gives a free 10% damage for walking, the other requires you to work together with your pets to attack the same target without the 10%.

Tell me again how sets are fine, ZOS?
Don’t even get me STARTED on Beacon of Oblivion.

Radiate77 · 1:35AM

What is wrong with sets being equal but different?
Why can’t we have that?

Vaqual · 1:40AM

Underestimating the importance and necessity of balancing changes is a grave mistake. I didn't expect them to launch subclassing flawlessly, but two patches in they haven't even really started to make adjustments on the required scope. I expected little, but the number of appropriate changes we have seen in the last months has been bafflingly small. This is simply not the right time to wait and do nothing.
Even if they have further adjustments planned down the line, they need to at least show that they are able to recognize the gravest issues concretely and show that they understand what has to be done. General statements are meaningless at this point. It doesn't hurt to aim, but at some point you have to shoot.

And another thing: If Vengeance is supposed to be judged like a test, then please do not peddle it like content.

dcrush · 2:12AM

The majority of the AUA replies are just… corporate word sauce. They don’t answer anything.

“That’s a great question - we’ve been looking at this for some time now and while we cannot give a direct answer it is something we are working on and we will have some exciting news about it in the future but we cannot talk about it yet. We will be excited to talk about this another time though, especially because we are really working on this and on improving our communication with the community.”

Copy, paste, done.

Destai · 3:17AM

dcrush wrote: »

The majority of the AUA replies are just… corporate word sauce. They don’t answer anything.

“That’s a great question - we’ve been looking at this for some time now and while we cannot give a direct answer it is something we are working on and we will have some exciting news about it in the future but we cannot talk about it yet. We will be excited to talk about this another time though, especially because we are really working on this and on improving our communication with the community.”

Copy, paste, done.

This.

I don't understand why they'd take time out of their busy schedules to give "answers" in the format that's been criticized for over 10 years. Where do they see this kind of verbiage working? I'm not seeing it on the forums, on reddit. Seems like most of the reception's pretty negative. I'd really love someone like @zos_kevin or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom to provide some insight here.

Gabriel_H · 4:51AM

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

It does have a place. And that place is in the “outdated” pile. The equipment bloat in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. Seriously, take the time to read through a list of every armor set in the game and tell me all of them have a place in modern ESO. Saying they still have a place just because they came first is like saying the bow and arrow still has a place in warfare.

They aren't outdated. They are pre-cursors, that are replaced later down the progression line. Not everyone chews through content, some take their time. The bow and arrow does have a place in warfare if you don't have any other weapons and only bows and arrows.

Soarora · 5:47AM

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

It does have a place. And that place is in the “outdated” pile. The equipment bloat in this game is some of the worst I’ve ever seen. Seriously, take the time to read through a list of every armor set in the game and tell me all of them have a place in modern ESO. Saying they still have a place just because they came first is like saying the bow and arrow still has a place in warfare.

They aren't outdated. They are pre-cursors, that are replaced later down the progression line. Not everyone chews through content, some take their time. The bow and arrow does have a place in warfare if you don't have any other weapons and only bows and arrows.

See, that can be a line of argument when we're talking overland/crafted vs dungeon vs trial but there's plenty of cases where crafted sets outperform dungeon sets. Those crafted sets don't need to be nerfed but the useless sets should be buffed to at least not be flat out bad. There's sets I'd love to use because they allow for thematic builds or have cool proc effects but they're just SO BAD.

PurpleScroll · 6:13AM

I couldn't read the answers without facepalming. I've been playing since summer 2016 and even back then there were sets that no one uses because they were just really bad. As some others have said, there are sets I'd love to use just to play around with as I love making unique builds for overland, but they simply don't stack up anywhere near as good as others.

Masteroshi430 · 7:09AM

Djiku wrote: »

The recent AUA on Reddit was just terrible. I can't put it any other way. How you can be so blind and defensive to reasonable feedback regarding consumables and sets is just baffling. I want to be constructive and leave it at that.
Just listen to Skinny Cheeks. He is making valid points and is a longtime standing community member and content creator, so he knows what the community is worried about.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w0BbaObAw_k&t=401s

Reddit AUA: September 9
A few topics on the matter: September 9 / September 14
Skinny Cheeks video: September 15
New topics on the matter with people very worried: September 16

... I guess ZoS is plugging their influencers with inverted phase...

colossalvoids · 8:05AM

Destai wrote: »

dcrush wrote: »

The majority of the AUA replies are just… corporate word sauce. They don’t answer anything.

“That’s a great question - we’ve been looking at this for some time now and while we cannot give a direct answer it is something we are working on and we will have some exciting news about it in the future but we cannot talk about it yet. We will be excited to talk about this another time though, especially because we are really working on this and on improving our communication with the community.”

Copy, paste, done.

This.

I don't understand why they'd take time out of their busy schedules to give "answers" in the format that's been criticized for over 10 years. Where do they see this kind of verbiage working? I'm not seeing it on the forums, on reddit. Seems like most of the reception's pretty negative. I'd really love someone like @zos_kevin or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom to provide some insight here.

The bigger they come. It reminds me Diablo 4 streams versus Path of Exile ones, a corporate stale fest praising themselves and going for hours about one insignificant change they've implemented in a year versus couple gamers being excited to show off their couple months work being loaded to the brim with qol, features and just new and reworked stuff. And ZoS aren't learning from a good party here.

flizomica · 8:05AM

It was pretty wild to read the responses/justification for the unfinished systems. Like I've been under the assumption that combat revamps (e.g. hybridization) have been left in an unfinished state due to technical difficulties with a small subset of changes and are all piled in a backlog somewhere. Now it seems more like the devs have decided that they can't change things because some spreadsheet is telling them to. What purpose does that serve if it's blocking progress with positive balance changes? How on earth is it better to leave something unfinished forever because you "can't" make any changes due to the arbitrary rules that you made up?