The 10% max stam/mag proc condition on Blood Magic passive is a joke and needs to be removed

hoangdz · August 19

Who seriously thought it was a good idea to rework Blood Magic like that? Literally look at this CMX of a recent duel I just did for example:

3 minute duel, and Blood Magic only had a 33% up time. Granted I didn't run Cwep/Cfrag for that duel, but a 33% uptime is TOO LOW. Not only that, but if you run into someone with a lot of pressure and defile, then you're almost never going to be at full HP. How are you going to proc this 10% max stam/mag passive lol?

Please, for the love of Arkay, remove this 10s timer and just make it a permanent buff like Hemorrhage from Assassination skill line.

ZhuJiuyin · August 19

In addition, there is a problem with the new blood magic. Since the system needs to constantly monitor your health, it may cause delays when you trigger the passive frequently.

MincMincMinc · August 19

We tried, but zos only sees one thing from the pts forums each cycle. Unfortunately the bloodmagic passive thread wasn't as popular. Not everything needs to be a proc effect. I don't know how many rounds of vengeance they are going to need to understand this before they preemptively start reducing the unnecessary calcs on the server.

The ONLY reason for max stat bonus is to work with shield builds (or that extra 0.1% more damage in pve) Last I checked, and I check a lot, dark magic still doesn't have ward on it. Honestly DAEDRIC mines should be swapped with Ward. Ward makes more sense to pair with the frags traditional magsorc playstyle. Mines makes more sense pairing with the zone of control pets playstyle to give yourself a peel mechanic.

I'd also put curse on dark magic and make encase work more towards pets. Like the root on enemies does a pet damage debuff. Then the heal version does a pet heal and buff.

Arvedia · August 19

Pretty much the same thing when tanking, really really bad change, please just revert it for the love of god...

albertberku · August 19

I personally like how it is triggered in PvP. Duration may be longer, like 20s, aligning it with skills like Exchange. But i prefer it not to be a passive buff. I find the Aegis -> Blood Magic change quite good actually for the extra max stats.

Vaqual · August 19

I also don't like conditional procs a lot, but just to play devils advocate:

Duels are expected to be the form of combat with the lowest uptime on this buff. You are the main target and you receive no cross-healing, increasing the likelihood of failing the proc condition when casting a Dark Magic ability, especially when kiting/LoS is discouraged.
The offensive power was moved from the "pet"-line to a "no pet"-line and stacked onto a passive slot rather than an ability slot, giving access to a noticeable net-buff for no-pet Sorc DPS in PvE.
The buff duration is long enough to deliberately heal to full and pre-buff in many scenarios, so it can be utilized tactically if a momentary disengage is possible, which is often cited as the core playstyle for Sorc. In that sense Blood Magic fully complements Dark Deal, by improving the buffing aspect and the healing aspect when each is needed most.

Make of it what you will. Personally, it didn't make the skill line better for me, because I abhor temporary HP/Resource buffs. But in terms of power it is not without merit for Dark Magic.

Renato90085 · August 19

10% stam/mag can not worth me choose a suckest line for any pve/pvp all role...
there only a healer spam and dps spamblade is normal,other all is bad.

Erickson9610 · August 19

So it basically functions like Hircine's Rage now.

100% Health proc conditions are not fun.

albertberku · August 19

For magsorc with max magicka build, it is actually quite easy to achieve the proc with Exchange. I tested it and when you lets say get to 80% health, while shielding, you can then shield and cast an exchange. You dont have to cast it twice. If the initial healing from Exchange ups you again to 100% you still get the passive bonus, which is how this passive should work imo. So, i am really pleased that you dont have to cast the skill twice just to get the bonus.

If you are playing any other build than max magicka i dont see how 10% max stat bonus will be of any significant importance. So, this passive is being a mini game for magsorc, trying to keep shields up all the time, instead of relying to the heals, which is the original idea of magicka sorcerer in ESO. And Frags are also an important source for this passive bonus. If you lets say subclassed Assasin instead and dropped Frags for the sake of Grim Focus, or you are not using Exchange, since it is easily interruptable and using a powerful and easier instant cast burst heal instead, then this is the tradeoff.

I am currently using mines from that skill line as the third skill. So, this is how it should be imo. You have a skill line and you should utilize its skills to get the most out of it. Not subclassing 3 Damage Skill Lines and getting every damage increase bonus in the game, how it is currently. So, imo this is a change in the correct direction. And i would love to see this approach will also be taken for some other skills/passives.

This particular change is quite cleverly done against 3 Damage lines subclassing meta in PvP, as a beginning. Because with this change, you have to rely both on sorcerer shield (which is in a different skill line) and this skill line together. So, to access the full power of sorcerer you have to actually slot all the sorcerer skill lines. And when you do, you actually can have crazy high shield tooltip. Currently i have 61k magicka and 16k shield in Cyrodill, without pets and when fully buffed.

Yudo · August 19

Realistically only way to keep this up is:

Crystal on DD
Refuge as heal on DD, healer or Tank.

Basically to get what I had previously, I had to give up a skill slot...
And no, exchange is not the right skill for this.

albertberku · August 19

I think you are talking about PvE, right? I dont know about that, i am looking from purely PvP aspect. But in PvE dont you always go high damage instead of high stats, anyway? But i have very limited experience with PvE.

Yudo · August 19

Can be both in PvE or PvP but in PvE rarely you will cast this in between rotation just to get a buff from it every 10s. The dps loss on those 2s cast time does not make up for the 10% magicka.

Even in PvP I find this a situational skill that you use when los, not on a 10s rotation. Most often it is too risky to cast this in the heat of things. Maybe depends on build also, if you are high stam regen you probably press exchange when every you have the chance.

I find refuge to work best so far, its a burst heal, and the passive will most likely always overheal.
Mini game is nice sure, but right now it feels like sorc got harder on a weak line, while other lines are still powerful for low effort. As a pure sorc, I have to work harder to stay relevant in C tier. Even if not stacking shields, 8/10% magicka did contribute to damage.

Yes they wanted to nuke the back bar slotting, I guess they managed to do that.
The skill line did not become more attractive for subclassing, and became harder to maintain/less efficient for pure.
Anyway, I like the idea, but imo wrong place wrong time in the sea of subclass balancing.

albertberku · August 19

I mean i am playing a max magicka sorcerer, it made my build definitely stronger in PvP and i dont have hard time with keeping the buff up. I am either casting frags or exchange at least once in 10 seconds. It has been always like that for me. Plus I dont have to slot Aegis anymore and instead i slotted some shield + protection buff from scribing, so that i can now stack shields up to 25k. And since ESO PvP is very situational, doesnt really matter if the buff is kept all the time or not. So, i am going to disagree for the PvP part.

Yudo · August 19

albertberku wrote: »

I mean i am playing a max magicka sorcerer, it made my build definitely stronger in PvP and i dont have hard time with keeping the buff up. I am either casting frags or exchange at least once in 10 seconds. It has been always like that for me. Plus I dont have to slot Aegis anymore and instead i slotted some shield + protection buff from scribing, so that i can now stack shields up to 25k. And since ESO PvP is very situational, doesnt really matter if the buff is kept all the time or not. So, i am going to disagree for the PvP part.

If you are running crystal and exchange you will most likely have great uptime, no doubt.
My focus is more on only using exchange on DD without crystal, or healer/tank roles.

albertberku · August 19

When you say roles (healer/tank), do you also mean PvP though? I thought PvP is all about people with 20k hp sneaking all around, trying to hit you in the middle of fights with all damage passives from 3 damage skill lines stacked. That is at least the only role i see in Cyrodiil

hoangdz · August 19

albertberku wrote: »

I mean i am playing a max magicka sorcerer, it made my build definitely stronger in PvP and i dont have hard time with keeping the buff up. I am either casting frags or exchange at least once in 10 seconds. It has been always like that for me. Plus I dont have to slot Aegis anymore and instead i slotted some shield + protection buff from scribing, so that i can now stack shields up to 25k. And since ESO PvP is very situational, doesnt really matter if the buff is kept all the time or not. So, i am going to disagree for the PvP part.

From my PvP perspective as a brawler stamsorc, it is a downgrade. The problem I have with this 10s duration is exactly the same as Dark Deal’s 10s Minor Berserk. This is essentially just transferring buff micromanagement from 1 skill to another. This time, not only do you have to micromanage the 10% max stam buff, you’ve also lost Minor Force lol. If not for the extra Sundered proc chance and Major Prophecy on BA (which is a nice QoL change but not needed for my build since I already had Major Prophecy), this U47 version is actually weaker than my U46 build in terms of stat.

madmufffin · August 19

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

MincMincMinc · August 20

madmufffin wrote: »

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

True, how do we have half the combat team working on vengeance and proving the combat system is too bloated with sets and effects.....then the other combat team is pumping out skills/sets that have paragraphs of effects and interact with handfuls of passives?

YandereGirlfriend · August 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

True, how do we have half the combat team working on vengeance and proving the combat system is too bloated with sets and effects.....then the other combat team is pumping out skills/sets that have paragraphs of effects and interact with handfuls of passives?

Think of something like the NB flanking passive.

Every single tick of damage dealt means checking the angle of the player to the target(s), which is so very computationally wasteful. Like cool concept, sure, but just way too expensive, particularly when every player in both PvE and PvP is running that line.

Remember when the unique % buffs to like Dunmer Flame Damage were stripped away and replaced by static Weapon Damage values because it was deemed too computationally extravagant to make the % calculation for every such Flame tick? And yet that was peanuts compared to the flanking passive and similar bloated procs that are not even tied to abilities or sets or CP.

This is why we needs programmers in the metaphorical room with the designers at all times.

MincMincMinc · August 20

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

True, how do we have half the combat team working on vengeance and proving the combat system is too bloated with sets and effects.....then the other combat team is pumping out skills/sets that have paragraphs of effects and interact with handfuls of passives?

Think of something like the NB flanking passive.

Every single tick of damage dealt means checking the angle of the player to the target(s), which is so very computationally wasteful. Like cool concept, sure, but just way too expensive, particularly when every player in both PvE and PvP is running that line.

Remember when the unique % buffs to like Dunmer Flame Damage were stripped away and replaced by static Weapon Damage values because it was deemed too computationally extravagant to make the % calculation for every such Flame tick? And yet that was peanuts compared to the flanking passive and similar bloated procs that are not even tied to abilities or sets or CP.

This is why we needs programmers in the metaphorical room with the designers at all times.

I just remember when over time effects didnt stack. Remember how many years people complained that certain morphs were pointless because the other morph was 5% more efficient.......Well back in the day there players used to choose all the other morphs to ensure that they could stack skills within group play. I remember using both mutagen(now radiating regen) and rapid regen depending on the meta. Also think of the proc set metas that could have been avoidable with these rules. Remember the sloads and soul trap meta? Well suddenly you wouldnt have 10 players stacking sloads and 10 soultraps on you doing your entire healthbar in oblivion damage per second.

How many ticks and proc checks do you think they could cut out if they reverted over time stacking in pvp? Hundreds, thousands? This is the true bonus that vengeance can provide now that zos made a separation between pve and pvp.

Even just the separation alone is massive. They could just copy live and use the separation to modify game rules for performance.

Zos, just stop complicating the game. Its like you are trying to design a german car with 10 million buttons on the dash for no reason. People want a concise functional game at this point that doesnt need unnecessary maintenance.

gc0018 · August 27

I think it is on the right place. The whole dark magic line is a joke, having a joke passive inside make sense.

randconfig · August 29

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

True, how do we have half the combat team working on vengeance and proving the combat system is too bloated with sets and effects.....then the other combat team is pumping out skills/sets that have paragraphs of effects and interact with handfuls of passives?

Think of something like the NB flanking passive.

Every single tick of damage dealt means checking the angle of the player to the target(s), which is so very computationally wasteful. Like cool concept, sure, but just way too expensive, particularly when every player in both PvE and PvP is running that line.

Remember when the unique % buffs to like Dunmer Flame Damage were stripped away and replaced by static Weapon Damage values because it was deemed too computationally extravagant to make the % calculation for every such Flame tick? And yet that was peanuts compared to the flanking passive and similar bloated procs that are not even tied to abilities or sets or CP.

This is why we needs programmers in the metaphorical room with the designers at all times.

I think the angle between you and your target is calculated every time you attack them, since it's used to correctly place and orient projectiles, proc set animations, character models, animations, etc. So this change to the passive doesn't require additional calculations.

MincMincMinc · August 29

randconfig wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

ZOS regularly talks about making performative changes, then makes a horrible change to a class and adds in more checks for the combat system. Makes sense to me. May as well just be when you use a dark magic skill or just be a flat buff since the skill line is already dumpster tier anyways.

True, how do we have half the combat team working on vengeance and proving the combat system is too bloated with sets and effects.....then the other combat team is pumping out skills/sets that have paragraphs of effects and interact with handfuls of passives?

Think of something like the NB flanking passive.

Every single tick of damage dealt means checking the angle of the player to the target(s), which is so very computationally wasteful. Like cool concept, sure, but just way too expensive, particularly when every player in both PvE and PvP is running that line.

Remember when the unique % buffs to like Dunmer Flame Damage were stripped away and replaced by static Weapon Damage values because it was deemed too computationally extravagant to make the % calculation for every such Flame tick? And yet that was peanuts compared to the flanking passive and similar bloated procs that are not even tied to abilities or sets or CP.

This is why we needs programmers in the metaphorical room with the designers at all times.

I think the angle between you and your target is calculated every time you attack them, since it's used to correctly place and orient projectiles, proc set animations, character models, animations, etc. So this change to the passive doesn't require additional calculations.

Compared to homing projectile functions on everything its probably a drop in the ocean......but at the same time there are so many instances where zos makes choices to unnecessarily have these complicated conditions that will only keep adding to the game's performance issues.

MashmalloMan · September 1

On live, in like 6m+ BGs my cmx shows about 65% average and I would consider myself in a best case, yet realistic scenario for most players. It's a common playstyle.

I'm mostly playing from 20-28m range with a bow, so my health should be topped up more often than not.
I'm using Dark Deal, even with the 20s minor berserk, I'm casting it frequently for the 10s sustain and it's my effective burst heal.
I'm using Instant proc Crystal Frag, on average it's fired once every 4-5s because I still need to manage and rotate other skills like Vigor, Blastbones, Spammable, Streak, Ult, etc.

65% in that length of time is rather low because there is a ton of downtime between fights, as well as defensive rotations where I will no longer be casting Instant Frags from full health, and spamming Dark Deal is only necessary when I actually need to heal.

What I imagine is realistically happening is I get near 100% uptime in the situations where I'm going offensive and can pew pew from the back unbothered, maybe about 90%. Then I get 30% uptime when I actually need it on the defensive, which is much worse than when it was 100% active for the purposes of scaling Hardened Ward.

Also, Bound Armaments still sucks. Unless you're running Charged, you get maybe 1 sundered per cast, if the skill even lands with the huge delays. Haunting Curse is just an inferior Scorch/Blastbones that can be purged and provides no debuffs. Pets are useless for most builds, (Haki still makes Matriarch look nuts). Atro is meh for pvp. Daedric Summoning as a whole is severely lacking and pretty much anything I replace it with does better.

MincMincMinc · September 2

We should have pressed zos more on this during the PTS cycle, granted we were blindsided with having to defend lightning form for half the time.

With changes like this we need to press on the fact that zos only further hurt game performance. You took a beyond mediocre out of meta stat boost and turned it into another conditional proc effect. This fact alone should be reasoning to not go through with a change like this.

How do we have half of zos's team working on vengeance to trim the fat, yet the other part of the team is just slapping more and more fat on the game?