metheglyn wrote: »

I know his depiction differs a lot from what we read about him in lore books; I'm not saying it doesn't seem inconsistent to us. What I wonder is whether the people in charge of the lore think it fits, either because they have a broader knowledge of Sanguine's lore than we do, or because they decided to add to it, and then use that part of it for the quests. ZOS has always been pretty clear that the lore books we encounter on Nirn are from the fictional author's perspective and not necessarily the full truth. So what if the game writers/lore creators decided there was another aspect to Sanguine that isn't so dark and perverse?

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not saying I agree with a possible addition to Sanguine lore, or that it's definitely the case; I'm just wondering why a depiction of Sanguine in game at this point would look different from what the in game lore books have said about him. Do the creators of the game and the lore feel like it works?

metheglyn wrote: »

I would have preferred Clavicus Vile related shenanigans. I really don't care for Sheogorath, and I've seen enough of him in game already to last me several lifetimes.

metheglyn wrote: »

I have my ways.

metheglyn wrote: »

Murkmire did that, as did Northern Elsweyr. I can't think of any other prologues that did it. In this case, it wouldn't have been tied to a prologue, but the main body of the quest, which is usually where quests for things like Summerset's geysers come in (though that one opens up part-way through the main quest, not at the end of it). At any rate, it would have been nice to have a little something to do to bridge the time gap.

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, any future characters that run this quest arc will benefit from that, at least.

metheglyn wrote: »

Ah, so we're paragons! Not going to let that bit get spread around the gossip channels of Tamriel, though; everyone already expects too much of me. If they knew I was generated by the Heart of Nirn, they'd never stop bugging me to do this and do that! That is an interesting book--good find! Of course the paragon bit is only theoretical, even by that book, but it would explain why we don't have those weird desiccated faces and bodies that other soul-shriven do.

metheglyn wrote: »

However, my explanation is going to remain the same: my characters are in their original bodies.

metheglyn wrote: »

Or he was making the whole thing up for sympathy, and thought you might not notice he still had all his limbs.

metheglyn wrote: »

But I would know it was there...also, too much work.

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm optimistic about it, though someone once did call me a foolish optimist on the WoW forums for my failure to buy into the doom and gloom they were always going on about over there. I trust ZOS to keep releasing new content; I hope I find the content enjoyable. Sometimes I'm disappointed; sometimes I'm not.
I do understand your concerns, though. And just in case it needs to be said: no, I'm not accusing you of having a doom and gloom stance.

metheglyn wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to that in and of itself, but they'd have to work pretty hard to write it convincingly, especially if you're talking about Mannimarco. I doubt Mannimarco considers himself evil, really, but if he wanted to start doing things differently, that could be an interesting story arc for him.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I dont mind villains who are straight up just evil, but I do like nuanced ones more. Take Mankar Camoran, leader of the Order of the Mythic Dawn. Yes, he worships the Prince of Destruction, but also revolution and change. He built an order that single handedly ushered in the Oblivion Crises, one of if not the most devastating events in Nirn's history. But while he did these terrible things that we the player attempt to stop him, he is a true believer in his doctrine that Nirn belongs to Dagon and that the world will be recreated for the better.

Honestly between the Order of the Waking Flame and the Order of the Mythic Dawn, I find Dagonites really interesting villains.

(Also, RIP Terrance Stamp)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder about that sometimes, too.

If one compares the base game main quest and the current one, the old questline was certainly more gruesome in many aspects. Sure, we've only seen the first half on the island yet. I'll be patient for another 2 months until I make my judgement

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know he's quite popular, and that's fine. People like what they like. If there is a Shivering Isles dlc, though, that will be one I'll skip. I really just can't with Sheogorath anymore.

I actually liked the Shivering Isles in Oblivion. The main city looked interesting and there was an interesting variety of quests. What I don't like about ESO Sheogorath is that it's always the same jokes which turns uninteresting rather fast for me. Would a whole chapter about him rely on always the same thing? I don't know. I'd probably give it a look - not necessarily at full prize, though.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do think the gap is too long, really. I know they wanted to give people time to complete the content, and allow for people who might have picked it up a little later to still participate, but I would think early September would be long enough.

I see they had to wait a certain time between the full prize release and the sale, but now that it's on sale (It was, wasn't it?) I don't know people will need another two months to complete the content. Only 3 to 4 hours for the main questline. Plus how many more for all side quests? Although none of those need to be played for the main quest to make sense anyway, and the only completed side quest that triggered a bit of extra dialogue within the main questline was Corelanya Manor, I think. I mean, I literally played all side quests before even starting the main quest and never did anything from those came up again later except for maybe one or two extra lines (or how many it were - anyway, not much) in the Corelanya Crypt. And even for me who only played maybe 2 hours each evening, all new story content was finished within not even 2 weeks. Including clearing the whole map, all world bosses, the public dungeon, every daily quest at least once, etc.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Long waits between story beats have the tendency to make me lose interest. As of now I'm still invested in the story enough to care, but by the time it's released, who knows. If Vanny's fate weren't hanging in the balance, I might have moved on already. Of course, there's also the factor that the story itself didn't really interest me all that much from the get-go. If I had liked the story better, my interest wouldn't be waning so quickly.

I try to keep myself curious by speculating about what might happen (always aware of the risk that what we actually get could be much more superficial and formulaic). Sometimes I fear it's more my imagination about what could be than what we actually get that induces the interest.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Good question. The speculation in the book mentions the body being "flawed" and an "imperfect pattern" so I took that to mean that it forms shriveled. Then the stuff about paragons and perfect recreations of bodies. I guess I'll check on you in, what, fifty years, and see if you've shriveled.

But didn't someone in the prologue even tell us that they shrivel over time? Something like Coldharbor draining the vitality from their bodies? Anyway, in 50 years I'll certainly be shriveled, soulshriveled or not

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do consider them mortals.

I'd just go by the definition: Can a person die? No? Then it's no mortal. And if that's the official stance on our character it's even stranger that we get called mortal all the time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for Lyranth...ugh...I liked "little mortal" about as well as I liked "proxy." Just...stop it already with the weird name place-holders. Honestly. I know when npcs are talking to me. (Though, I'm sure in Lyranth's case, she was just doing it because she's a jerk like that.)

I found it annoying, too. Well, in case of Lyranth, that is. I was just wondering what term Leramil used in German... I guess the best translation would be "envoy". Slightly better, I guess, but also a bit strange if it gets repeated all the time. Like if the was trying to remind us on what we're supposed to do. Well, maybe daedra-brained people need their endless repetitions...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Throw a party; reacquaint yourself with your dwellings!

Inviting guests? To my houses? Seriously?!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They could leave the Worm Cult in the farthest reaches of the lore vault for all I care, but Mannimarco content could still be interesting. What's he even need with a cult anyway? If he needs someone to do his chores and fetch and carry for him...well, that's what great heroes are for!

I think he needs that veneration thing. Of course he could just act like a normal person and get a Bosmer, but you know he considers himself "special", so he probably thinks he deserves a whole cult.

And we know he still has his cultists in Oblivion, so: no Worm Cult - no Mannimarco story. Although I'd really like to see one that's more personal, more about him as a character, with the cult being less of interest.

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I dont mind villains who are straight up just evil, but I do like nuanced ones more. Take Mankar Camoran, leader of the Order of the Mythic Dawn. Yes, he worships the Prince of Destruction, but also revolution and change. He built an order that single handedly ushered in the Oblivion Crises, one of if not the most devastating events in Nirn's history. But while he did these terrible things that we the player attempt to stop him, he is a true believer in his doctrine that Nirn belongs to Dagon and that the world will be recreated for the better.

Honestly between the Order of the Waking Flame and the Order of the Mythic Dawn, I find Dagonites really interesting villains.

(Also, RIP Terrance Stamp)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The base idea of "tear the world down to create it in a better way" certainly is interesting. It's easy to see why the idea that fixing what's wrong won't work and we need to start from scratch can draw people in. That's one thing Dagonites have over Worm Cultists as far as beliefs go.

I mean, the Worm Cult tries to appeal to necromancers by promising them a society where they could practice the dark arts in peace and without prosecution. Which is a bit funny, since: How many necromancers are there? Is necromancy such a vital part of life that people couldn't live without it, or that changing the whole world (and destroying most in the process) is worth it just to be able to live as a necromancer openly? From my point of view, necromancy might be a useful tool for some, or a curious hobby, pastime or field of study for others. But most people would probably not have "necromancer" as their main identity in life. Well, realistically seen; not talking about necromancer npcs in a game that obviously have no real personal life and just standing around being the evil cultist baddie to be killed by the great hero.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd likely take a look at it once it was part of ESO+ (if that happened, that is) but I would not pay for it otherwise. I despise Sheogorath that much.

I'm really wondering whether the "seasons" will become a part of ESO+, but I don't think there was any official announcement on that yet? Because then, that would be another aspect where it's exactly like with the chapters, so again I'm wondering what purpose the change even served. So far, I still see the same schedules like before. Yes, I know we've been told it was a "transitional year", or how they called it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I suppose the release of the next two dungeons is meant to tide us over. Is there going to be current story in those dungeons? If so, I'll have to read up on what that is, because my interest in running dungeons is low to non-existent.

I think the topics are vaguely related, but not necessary for understanding the next part of the story. It's not like in some former year (It was the Elsweyr year, I think?) where an artifact playing a role in the main story is found in one of the Q1 dungeons. Let me check... The first new dungeon is on the Western side of the island:
"The legendary Xanmeer of Naj-Caldeesh was hidden long ago. All but forgotten by the Stone-Nest Argonians of Solstice and left with few defenses, it seemed as though the Xanmeer’s secret would remain buried. However, a faction of Argonian Necromancers uncovered the entrance. Help stop the necromancers before they can corrupt the mysterious power inside and unleash Naj-Caldeesh's Voskrona Guardians on the rest of Solstice."
And the other thing is in Coldharbor:
"In one of the many twisted pathways of Coldharbour lies the freshly forged Black Gem Foundry. The cruel masters of this infernal armory are fusing black soul gems into weapons and armor, resulting in armaments that steal life essence with each attack. Dalenor the Summoner, scholar of Daedra and friend of atronachs, barely escaped with his life after discovering the Foundry's nefarious plot to send these armaments to support Coldharbour's forces along the Writhing Wall. He's located a portal that leads directly to the Black Gem Foundry, but he needs your help to shut it down."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Speculation is fun and does keep me engaged. An unfortunate side effect is that is can lead to even more disappointment. But worth it, really, when all is said and done.

The thing I generally fear most for Part 2 is that there might be, again, a bigger focus on action and effects than on actually giving us interesting new lore.

The perfect outcome for me really would be: Wormblood turns out to have been Soulshriven Mannimarco (which would also explain his ability to always resurrect, by the way, even without being a lich). Mannimarco sides with us against a bigger threat and becomes a morally grey character instead if the irredeemable baddie (to bring him closer to his role in TES2 Daggerfall). Interaction between Vanny and Mannimarco that takes into consideration the relationship they had to each other in their youth. Give me that and I'll be happy Unfortunately, I know it's possible we will see exactly nothing of that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Even as a Telvanni? You can't go fifty years without shriveling naturally? Come on, I thought you were more wizard than that!

I want to shrivel. I'm tired of being mistaken for an apprentice. It gives a face more character

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Which prologue do you mean for being told about shriveling over time? If you mean the tutorial, I don't remember any details about shriveling. I don't actually remember being told directly I was soul shriven.

I had to be clearer, didn't consider for a moment that we have specific labelled "prologues". I meant the term narratively, so the game's tutorial as the story's introduction to the main story of the base game (or the whole game, actually). And I do think there was something about the Soulshriven slowly, well, changing to the way we usually see them, after being in Coldharbor too long (it also mentioned them becoming mindless, insane or lethargic, or something like that, I think it was in a dialogue bit about Cadwell). I always attributed their looks to the daedric realm draining their vitality from them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The term 'proxy' itself wasn't the problem. It made sense for what role we were playing. It was more how often she used it. Even if someone is an envoy or a proxy for someone else, is that the only thing you ever call them? It's weird to do that, and also weird how often they do it (which we've talked about before). Then, of course, in the end she corrects herself and says something about how she should call us 'friend' instead and my character's attitude was: "Uh, no. We're not friends. I hope I never see you again."

People randomly calling us "friend" also bothers me. I think it's especially weird in main quests, since it's clear in those that we're mostly there to stop the big threat, and not because we like the involved characters much. Same goes for the random short side quest where we fetch some item for someone and get gold for it. It's something different in longer side quests where there's no world-ending threat and we might actually want to help a person. Even more so if we actually went through a lot with that character and possibly saved their life. Azandar is a friend to my character. Considering what we did for Mirri, she'd also fall into that category. When it comes to non-companions, I certainly have that feeling when it comes to Revus.

Generally I think calling us by a specific terms might not be the best decision (apart from being not really necessary anyway - if someone talks to us directly, it's clear they mean us), because it predefines for our character what relation we're supposed to have to an npc. In an rpg, I'd rather decide that for myself.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Don't you have some other Telvanni to impress? Or Bosmer to lure...er, entertain? If not, just throw a party for yourself!

You're actually right. I could invite Gothren over and serve him some cake.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I know we don't get Mannimarco without the cult. But the cultists aren't interesting, and Mannimarco is.

I think it would be great if there would be a bigger focus on the characterization of individuals. So often we have "random group whatever" and that group has a leader who is the baddie (or maybe not), but what do we actually get to know about them? We have a long list of people by now who just appear and then die again, and that's it. I'd like to have some lasting impression that still lingers a while after a story ends. And in case of Mannimarco it's even stranger we actually know so little about him while he's an absolutely central character for the whole TES series, appearing in 3 out of 6 games so far (if we only go by the main rpgs; TES 1-5 and ESO).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That is an interesting point, too, about them being a necromancer seeming to be their entire identity. Their lives seem to be nothing but necromancy, and then they're shocked when people don't want to hang out with them.

Maybe there's a certain necromancer lifestyle associated with it. We just haven't heard of it yet.

But seriously, it's not even "realistic" that so many people would get into necromancy at all. If we go by plausibility, it would probably rather be a fringe phenomenon. Most people don't want to handle corpses, for reasons of uncleanliness, infection risk, etc. Of course hygiene was different in a medieval society, and people didn't even know that germs existed (That's a rather recent thing; the first doctor who suspected that diseases could spread from one patient to another through unwashed surgical tools, and therefore proposed to clean them between uses, was ridiculed - and that was in the 1860's), but there was a belief that disease would spread through air, through fumes, and especially through bad smells. Now, rotten corpses... Well. In the real world Middle Ages in Europe, being a grave digger was seen as a dirty and honorless profession - on one level with executioners and knackers; so basically everything that had to do with interacting with corpses somehow was shunned.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Eh, there's still a bit of murkiness about this new season system.

I wish all necessary facts would have already been presented to us directly with the announcement of the new release plan.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, I did see in the patch notes that the Writhing Wall event will have a story quest in addition to the other quests/dailies. So that's nice.

Makes me wonder whether that one might remain the same for everyone, also for people who play that content later, and what we get through the event is basically some extra stuff on top of that - repeatable tasks to do, attack spawning enemy groups, whatever. Two months left!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How shriveled, though? You looking to get to Meln the Mouthless levels of shrivel (before he was murdered). Or Archcanon Tarvus? Or something a little less decrepit looking?

Nah, just a little shrivel. You know, something that tells everyone "powerful wizard in his prime". That's hard to convey if you're, uhm, tendentially younger-looking.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I'll take your word for it. I'm never going to admit my characters are soul shriven, though. Original body, original soul. I didn't spend all that time in character creator just to have Mannimarco wreck my creation the second I entered the game!

I mean, strictly seen, the character creation screen already shows Coldharbor, so we're basically already creating the daedric copy

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the Fighters Guild, they call us 'comrade' and in the Mages Guild, they call us 'adept', and those designations never bothered me, because it was our rank/standing in the guild.

I've been wondering about "adept", by the way. Is it meant as a rank? Or is it a general term for a practitioner (someone who had been initiated at some point, no matter the current rank)? If it's a (lower) rank, it also doesn't really fit if we're, factually, already a powerful mage.

Syldras wrote: »

Then again, you could join the Mages Guild and progress through the whole questline without ever using magic... It's all a bit strange. Especially the process of joining the guilds, where you'd just randomly get gold for joining, and then might never show up again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think Valaste or Merric ever dropped 'friend' on us.

Both did.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Always with Gothren. Are there no other Telvanni worth your time?

I have my reasons.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess the only way we could get to know about any of the individuals is if we do a quest for them, which would be strange, because why would we be questing for a cultist? There was that one cultist in the prologue who Merric left alive, but we don't really get to know much about him except that he's in pain and is "done with" the cult. Well, I guess we can get to know them by reading their journal after we kill them: we seem to do that quite often.
Or were you talking about getting to know more about the leaders of the various groups, and not the members of the group? Like Rada al-Saran and King Nantharion? One recent one we did get to know some about was Torvesaard. He was actually an interesting character that had some nuance. In general, yes, it would be nice to have deeper characterizations of the individuals we go up against.

I was thinking more about group leaders and other remarkable characters (although the motivations of a random cultist would also be interesting to learn about). And yes, they did that with Torvesard - and that's the reason I still remember him, even by name, while I couldn't tell you who the Ascendant Lord's little minion was, or even the name of the Bosmer spy of the current story, to be honest. I want to see more characters that matter somehow, that have aspects to them that makes you remember them. And I think it's possible to do that. Dialogues. Diaries. Learning information from other npcs that know or knew them. Or how about a little infiltration quest where you join a group just to gather info? There are so many possibilities. Yet most often we just get, more or less, some baddie to kill, that never seems to be more than "that evil guy", and that actually doesn't even really matter for the world.

Syldras wrote: »

It's interesting, by the way, that such topics come up rather rarely in ESO. Yes, of course we have lore about the Knahaten Flu and the Thrassian Plague, and we have the Llodos Plague (which is an artificial disease), but generally, the people of Tamriel seem to be a rather healthy population. Of course, healing magic has an influence, but when it comes to hygiene,... Let's say you'd expect more problems with that, if you look at how most cities are structured.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But back to the topic of necromancy, it does seem far more popular than one might expect of the society in general. Mannimarco must be happy about that.

Which leads to a different question: If it's such a common thing many people partake in in Tamriel, why is it even such a taboo? You'd expect more (and more different) groups advocating for it, and most of all not only some sinister cult with plans to destroy the whole world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As do I, but that isn't really the way ZOS does things. Why? Who knows.

I'd hope for more transparency in the future. It would certainly help to (re)build trust. I see more posts by devs and mods recently, and I think that's a good step into the right direction!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So if powerful mages can keep themselves young for longer, there should be a way for them to age themselves just a bit. Get a good illusion spell going or something.

Why would I waste my time on that if I can just wait a few years and it will happen naturally?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! Hey, stop bringing logic in to wreck my fantasy! *shakes fist*

It's a rather unique thing to not create a mortal but the daedric replacement hull of a mortal in a character creator. Well, unless you started your character while one of the other tutorials was active. It would actually be nice to be able to choose between a few backgrounds, just for roleplay reasons (not even talking about giving a character possible extra attributes or so).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, when we first join they do call us 'initiate', so I think 'adept' is as high a rank as we can get

Or that's just the difference between applicant (still on probation) and full member.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

without gaining a position like Valaste has: "Mistress of Incunabula."

It sounds better than "head librarian", does it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know how or when one could achieve the title of Archmage.

Among Bosmer, probably if you have eaten the old one.

Nah, honestly, they have ranks. Or at at least they had in the singleplayer games. In Daggerfall and Morrowind they were related to certain skills, so you actually had to level your magic abilities to progress in the Mages Guild, and in Oblivion you just went through the ranks by completing the questline and getting promoted because you did something useful or so, I think.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But I suppose, if Vanny is any example, one can gift oneself any title one wants.

Isn't it always like that, everywhere, even in real life? You can call yourself whatever you want, the question is whether other people will call you that, too

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not to mention you're working for a ghost the whole time. Or whatever Shalidor is.

Yes, he's dead. Can't really remember what he does later. Yes, I know, I wanted to replay that questline, but I've been a bit busy the last few days driving my Dwemer boat through the canals of Vivec City.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I actually was concerned about Valaste during the course of the Mages Guild quest

Me too, although I remember that the best outcome actually wasn't that clear, from a moral perspective. I usually saved her, but one could argue which decision is more mercyful - returning someone to sanity even if that means suffering for that person, or keeping them insane, but finally happy and carefree for the first time in their life? I chose what I think Valaste would have chosen while she was still of sound mind. Which also happens to be my personal stance, but I can see how other people would go for the other one.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm sure you do. You're beginning to seem a little like the average single-minded necromancer with your focus on Gothren, but I'm sure it's fine because of those reasons you have. I'm sure it is.

I find him interesting and think he has quite a promising future ahead

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So I'm also blanking on the Ascendant Lord's little minion (which, by the way, great title for him) but I do remember Faranor. Forgot she was a Bosmer, though, and when I read "the Bosmer spy of the current story," my initial reaction was: "There was a Bosmer spy?" However, Faranor is fairly recent; I probably will forget about her sooner or later. Though I think I would call her a double-agent rather than just a spy. I don't know how she did it, but she did convince the higher ups in the Mages Guild to trust her enough to allow her to lead the portal ritual that she then sabotaged. Makes me wonder how long she had been embedded in the Mages Guild. Then again, they do let just anyone in and seem to immediately trust them, so she probably didn't need any kind of social finesse for that. For all we know, she joined just the day before she sabotaged the portal.

See, you've already forgotten her actual name: It's Farinor Almost like farina, the Latin word for flour.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe they just have really robust immune systems somehow. Trained on bacteria or something.

It might make sense for Argonians and Bosmer, but for the average Redguard city dweller...?! Or even Altmer? Altmer seem so obsessed with cleanliness, their immune system must be ruined.

It's interesting that in ESO there are no diseases (except for lycanthropy and vampirism) the player character can contract while the singleplayer games had them.

But then again, it's even stranger that while you could get infected with them in the other games, you were usually the only person that got them. It's not like you ever saw someone else, a beggar, or another adventurer, or just some commoner at their home, showing the symptoms the diseases were supposed to have.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's interesting to me how healing magic is portrayed in games like this. Obviously for player characters, it has to be really robust to keep everyone alive in the deadliest of trial fights and trifectas and such, but then for npcs it always seems rather weak. Like they couldn't find a cure for the Knahaten Flu; even the most accomplished mages were stumped by it. I know that's more akin to how it really would be, but it's just interesting to me how healing magic is powerful up until the moment it's not. Plot reasons, and so forth, I know.

Now I wonder whether the Vestige using healing magic even makes sense, considering it's not a normal mortal body made from normal flesh.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, you only ever see the evil people advocating for it. But that's this era; in Zerith-var's era, at least among the Khajiit, they understood it had more purpose. If a group similar to the Order of the Hidden Moon started advocating for it, and showing how it's not all evil rituals and thralls, I wonder what the general populace's reaction would be.

Probably depends on how much of a cultural taboo it is. Taboos and moral ideas don't always make sense logically. Sometimes no reasoning helps, it's just established rules that are followed no matter what.

Think of the food taboos in different cultures, for example. Some cultures eat insects, and it's normal for them and they find them tasty, while members of other cultures are already disgusted of the thought of eating insects. It doesn't help to tell them it's tasty and doesn't do any harm, the digust might still be too strong. It's culturally learned behavior what may be eaten and what not (well, except for obviously poisonous things). And it's the same thing with all kinds of habits and also moral ideas (not saying there aren't any cases at all where rules make sense, for example because people developed them with harm reduction in mind, but some of them are arbitrary and also vary from culture to culture).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think "head librarian" would be pretty prestigious, but she's not in charge of all the books, is she? Just the really good ones.

The first printed ones, if Tamriel's history of print production is like it was on Earth. Which would probably be about the newest ones they have. I find older ones more interesting

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Hah, yeah, that's true. I'm trying to remember if anyone else in game calls him "The Great Mage" or if he's still in the stage of trying to make it happen.

I think no one does, he only calls himself that. Oh, and quest descriptions in the quest log sometimes use that name, too. But other npcs? Not really.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wouldn't mind having a Dwemer boat.

I'd also like an actual boat, but for now, the Dwemer car is fine for that purpose, too.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It was an interesting choice we got to make. I always save her, and afterwards she always thanks me for it, which to me sounds like she was glad I made that choice.

I think some quests are actually written the way that the npcs involved will always thank you and be happy about your choice, no matter which one you chose.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know Sheogorath played up that she was always lonely and her only friends were books, but I can't take his word for it on that. She doesn't seem unhappy in her role in the Mages Guild. She's actually quite giddy about working with Shalidor. Not everyone needs to surround themselves with other people in order to be happy, and she seemed genuinely glad to have the opportunity to work on translating those books. Think how much happier she would have been doing it if Sheogorath hadn't been messing with her mind.

Actually happiness isn't even what matters to me in that regard. The question to me is her stance on truth. What does she prefer: Seeing the world how it really is but being unhappy with life, or basically living inside an endless beautiful dream and feeling happy because of that? My stance is: Truth over happiness. Even if truth hurts, it's still preferable over some nice lie (or self-deception). But the question is what Valaste would prefer.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder what he would think of your assessment of him. Something tells me he wouldn't appreciate it much.

Why does he follow my invitations, then?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I can't believe you're dinging me on a misspelling of a fantasy game name. Low blow, Telvanni. Low blow.

It's about how little memorable that character is, since otherwise, you would have remembered the name including the correct spelling.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In ESO, the only disease I ever got infected with while I was out in the wild was lycanthropy. I was fighting some werewolf mobs and afterwards noticed I had the infection on me. I hustled to the nearest priest of Arkay to have it removed. Simple and effective.

I contracted vampirism through bloodfiends on purpose on one character; and on another where I had the same plan I only found werewolves instead of bloodfiends, but then decided to just give it a go nonetheless - then saved lycanthropy on one armory slot and got cured again immediately after that. So if I ever have interest in playing a werewolf just out of curiosity (I don't think it's likely, but who knows...), I can just pick it up from my armory again. It sounds a little strange you can basically save it, but then again, it's a disease, so it's possible imagining it as keeping a vial with a virus sample for potential reinfaction.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then of course we have quests and stories about npcs who are vampires and werewolves but don't want to be, but there's no known cure, so what can they do. I realize the difference is that player characters must have the agency to decide whether or not to have either of those afflictions, but it does create a certain disconnect within the world.

It does. It would help if there were maybe some quests where you'd help someone getting cured. Or getting the gold to go to a priest or healer. I also think it's a bit too easy to get cured in ESO, for the player.

Syldras wrote: »

Generally, when it comes to diseases, we rarely see people being affected by one. Mostly in quests when it's the main topic of a quest, but we rarely see someone being sick as a normal part of life. No one staying at home with a cold, lying in bed or sitting in front of the hearth. No beggar shivering because they caught ataxia. No miner coughing because all the dust they're exposed to damaged their lung. Not even someone with a rash. And while we're at it: No one with missing or discolored teeth either, or with a wooden leg.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Same thing with Altmer and cleanliness. Supposedly they are very into it, but it's hard to see how, considering the limited hygiene options present in game.

They have real bath tubs, at least Other than that, there's only one in Dunmer style, and one big wooden tub in Orc style. Altmer also have wash basins.

But if it's such a big part of their culture, why don't we see more related to that in quests? It would probably also have a significance in their religious rites then, for example.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

From what I've seen in game, it's really only the Redguard culture that has a huge taboo about necromancy. Vanny hates it, and so the Mages Guild has to hate it/not teach it (I think in the Vulkhel Guard Mages Guild there's some voice lines from an instructor there who explains why she doesn't allow necromancy in her classroom, which makes it seem like it's not banned outright, she just doesn't want it there).

I think the cleanly Altmer would also have a problem with it

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering how often people interact with ghosts/spirits (especially in Glenumbra; seems like every third quest there is from a ghost), it's not like they're afraid of the dead.

I see a big difference between spirits and zombies or the like (but then again, for me it's not about morals, but about the fact that a spirit emits no disgusting smell ); and the question whether the spirit is somehow forced or not is also an important factor.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Considering all the books we find in dusty old Ayleid ruins, seems like printing has been around for a long time.

Are they prints, though?

And strictly seen, it's often recent books, sometimes from authors we know are clearly still alive - so books that actually shouldn't be there. I think it's a bit of a pity, in terms of immersion, that bookshelves in old, forgotten ruins show exactly the same documents as any bookshelf somewhere inside a normal town. And then all those fresh ingrendients inside ruins and even in daedric realms...There's no distinction in terms of location when it comes to containers. I wish they would have seperated at least two categories, so bookshelves in ruins and the like would only show old or even moldy, burnt or otherwise unreadable books, and containers would possibly only drop nonperishable objects. In TES3 Morrowind there was a clear distinction and in Dwemer ruins, for example, you'd only find Dwemer-related items in containers. You wouldn't find gold either, but old Dwemer coins you could sell to merchants.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I call him that. So maybe I can make it happen on his behalf. Every time some npc says "Vanus Galerion" I'll say, "You mean the Great Mage?" That won't irritate anyone at all, I'm sure.

I prefer to call him Vanny

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Your Dwemer boat is actually a Dwemer car? Some kind of amphibious vehicle? Truly, the wonders of the Dwemer never cease.

It's truly multifunctional. I posted pictures here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8359998/#Comment_8359998

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm sure they are. After all, they don't want to make the player feel like they chose wrongly or made a mistake or did something bad.

Then again, the base game also had a few situations where something absolutely horrible would happen if you made a certain decision. I looked up some of these on UESP once and I remember the one in the Forbidden Crypts in Deshaan was particularly bad.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think she's unhappy with the truth of her life, though. I think she has accepted it, and I never got the idea from my interactions with her that she would prefer to be mindlessly happy instead of who she actually is. Since it always seems to me like she's fine with her life, I don't send her off with Sheogorath. If she ever decides later that she wants to join him, I'm sure she could figure out how to do so.

The last part is usually my reasoning, too.

I thought this time I'd keep my eyes open in particular for what signs of unhappiness she might show, but now I'm actually stuck I could progress through the whole Fighters Guild questline on that new character without any break, but for the Mages Guild, there's a stop now.

Syldras wrote: »

And since I somehow don't want to run around searching for glowing books just for that now, I decided I might just do the Solstice prologue and Solstice Part 1 first. Other than with the Fighters Guild story, it makes no big difference in case of the Mages Guild, does it? I don't think anything from that story comes up in Solstice again, or do I remember wrong? Apart from maybe (not sure about that anymore) a minor dialogue bit where they mention the return of Eyevea - or maybe that bit will even change accordingly, I don't know. Anyway, I guess I'll just see. In case of the Fighters Guild and the whole thing about Merric I found it too jarring, so I absolutely wanted to do that in correct order.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Paranoia and plotting. Classic Telvanni machinations.

That sounds like a strange reason to visit people, and to, among other things, celebrate your birthday with them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, I almost didn't remember it. You said, "Bosmer spy" and I thought: What? Bosmer spy?
Then I thought: Oh, yeah, that person! She was a Bosmer, wasn't she? What was her name? Started with an 'N', I think. Nan...no, that was the guy from West Weald.
Then it suddenly came to me, like thoughts and memories sometimes do: Faranor!
Though, of course, it wasn't quite accurate after all.
And that's probably more discussion about her than that character has rightfully earned.

And exactly that's a pity. She does almost nothing of interest except for that thing at the very beginning of the story, and we learn nothing about her. That's hardly interesting.

Syldras wrote: »

Ah, yes: Have you seen the new necromancer horse?
https://esosslfiles-a.akamaihd.net/ape/uploads/2025/07/e62c93d94ca53d086a3fa6154623925d.jpg

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, when I realized I was infected with lycanthropy, I was kind of panicked thinking: how do I get cured? There's a cure, right? I don't have to become a werewolf, do I? But yes, the priest of Arkay just waves his hand and, boom, cured. Hypothetically waves his hand, that is. I don't recall if the npc actually did any motion. I think I had to pay for it. I mean, donate to the coffers.

I can't remember either since it's been a while. But it was rather costly, I think? I'd rather see a real quest related to it, but then again, some people would probably also complain about that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm guessing those kinds of details would require too much time and cost investment for their worth. When we do come across people who are ill or injured, they're usually in the same position: lying on the ground/bed, clutching their stomach, and kind of lifting their head now and then. Then there's the "hold the arm" posture for those who were injured in fighting or something similar.

I'd honestly think it would help with the atmosphere. A society where almost everyone is just healthy and fine, maybe save for a few war-related injuries when it comes to troops, just feels wrong somehow. It's just not realistic, especially not in a medieval-ish world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You'd think it would come up now and then, at least in idle chatter of npcs. Every now and then a quest npc will make some remark about how my character smells, usually after they've sent me off to a swamp or dank pit to get them something. One quest I did today, in the Rift, a nord spirit of one of Ysgramor's companions told me the Worm Cultists smelled worse than I did. I said, "Thanks?" Then I asked, "How can you smell anything, you're a spirit?" But I don't recall an Altmer ever commenting on my characters' cleanliness, or lack thereof.

Does Sload soap still exist?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe that's why the mages guild teacher doesn't want it in her classroom--she's an Altmer, after all.

She probably prefers the smell of old books, although that's also partly decomposition (of the paper - so basically rotting plant material; the rest is mostly ink and glue, and sometimes leather).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know the specifics of them, but they all do appear to be in book form, and since every book has the same font style, I assume they're printed. Either that, or Tamriel teachers are very strict about penmanship.

I think that might be more of a technical thing? I played a few adventure games throughout the years that had handwritten letters, but with the many thousand books ESO has, that would just not be feasible (and for all translations, these would have to be written once more). Let alone some people would probably also complain they couldn't read some of them, so using a clear and standardized font probably is "safer".

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't see any signs of it in her in the present as we go through the quest, but there are a couple of times where Sheogorath says something about it, or shows us her past where she had no friends. I think she dismissed it as part of his games.

I'll certainly keep my eyes open once I'll continue. Now I've decided to do Solstice first - after that I've probably (hopefully) leveled the Mages Guild skill line enough to do the rest of that questline.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I really don't think much of the Mages Guild comes up in Solstice. Continuity-wise, I mean. Nothing jarring if you do those quests without ever having heard of the Mages Guild, much less done their storyline in its entirety.

I've just started the Solstice prologue again, and, honestly, it's a bit weird if one pays closer attention. The prince tells me hat 4 guild halls have fallen and everyone there died - but if you'd check, you'd see that they're all fine, and all npcs that were there before are still alive. It's really not like anyone is missing.

Syldras wrote: »

Then he calls those murders the "biggest crisis since the Planemeld" which is debatable. I mean, for my character, it's more or less true - since he hasn't been through anything else yet except for the base game main quest. But normally, you'd have the dragon problem ins Elsweyr, vampires in Skyrim, and all that other stuff, so it's a bit questionable. Unless maybe you think of the guild alone, but the prince doesn't specify that.

Syldras wrote: »

I also found it a little strange that the dialogue starts with "As a (guild) member, you deserve to know...", but then the next dialogue part is "Can I hire you, wayfarer?" - ?! He has already forgotten about my guild membership within those 5 seconds? Realistically I'd expect something like "Comrade! Our guildhalls are under attack! Come with me, we need to hurry..." but not a polite question whether he could "hire" me.

Syldras wrote: »

Then that bit about his father sending him to the guild since they're neutral, so he can travel the continent with them and see the world... Yes, certainly no spy work

That part about the big mystery where the assassins came from, and how strange it was that it were surprise attacks from within and no attackers coming from outside the guild halls, was actually also a little funny. I know it wasn't that, but seriously: They hire everyone, without any background checks or without even testing whether the person has skills that would benefit them or even is reliable - under those circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised about someone within the guild hall murdering someone sooner or later, for one reason or another.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, Telvanni are strange creatures; this I have learned.

I prefer the term "remarkable".

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, she playacts (badly) as the Great Mage for a few scenes. That's...sort of amusing if not actually interesting. Otherwise she's just another throwaway character.

How many sentences did she yell there? One? Two? It was amusing, albeit unrealistic. And it told us nothing about her as a person. So, yes, just another throwaway npc, and that's a pity.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I did, and thought it looked interesting. I'm glad they didn't make it a skeletal horse; not everything about necromancers needs to be skeleton-adjacent.

Why are its legs broken, though?

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, and weren't you talking about the title of "Archmage" earlier? I got this on a loading screen earlier today:
"Shalidor may not have been the first wizard to call himself Arch-Mage, but history records him as such. When Vanus Galerion founded the Mages Guild, he declared the high guildmaster's title would be Arch-Mage to honor the memory of Shalidor."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was actually expecting a quest. Nothing too drastic. Probably the usual, "I'm all out of ingredients," style of fetch quest. I was a little relieved to be able to just throw money at the problem, however, to make it go away. I wouldn't be opposed to a quest, necessarily, but that would depend on the quest. Just fetching random ingredients that aren't even that far away always makes me want to ask the npc: Why did you let yourself run out? How lazy are you?

I mean, some individuals usually have better things to do than running around gathering mundane herbs... But of course also for the player, some simple fetch quest is rarely interesting. They could have made something about a ritual that has to be performed, for example. Or that you'd need some rare artifact, or rarer ingredient for a curing potion. That would also make it more plausible why not everyone can just get cured (since npcs who got infected against their will are part of some stories) - they might not be adventurers and not able to get to that dangerous location to fetch that thing needed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would, but I also wonder if there are technical limitations to it. The npcs in the game don't have a great range of motion or posture all told, and I don't know if that's because they didn't make more animations or couldn't. (Honestly, I know very little about such technical things.)

It would certainly be possible to use several different textures for things like missing or damaged teeth or rashes. And new animations (and things like posture while standing or walking) are added all the time through emotes, mementos and personalities that are available either as quest or event rewards or through the store. I guess they just thought that it's not really needed or people don't really care for it, so they've done nothing like that yet when it comes to diseases, disabilities or injuries.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Did it ever? Not that I would use it. Anyway, every time my characters go for a swim, I feel like they're getting rid of some of the grime.

My characters usually own a bathtub. And yes, Sload soap is a thing:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Sload_Soap
Seems they also added it to Skyrim later:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sload_Soap
It's a funny thing to think people eat that stuff

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking about that series of books by Carlovac Townway about the last year of the first era, and wondering how old they're supposed to be. I know they're historical fiction, so they could have been written at any time up until whatever year we're in now, but then they show up in Skyrim, too, so by then they're pretty old. And, apparently, pretty popular to remain in print all that time. Maybe they achieved "classic literature" status, so they're always available.

I'd always assumed that's a total classic that people enjoy throughout the eras. Just like in there real world where you can still find Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy in every bigger bookstore today despite it being over 700 years old. Or the works of some Ancient Greek and Roman writers, epics like the Iliad or the Aeneid, works that are over 2000 years old.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Total side-note unrelated to anything else: did you go ahead with your NA server clone idea/experiment? I ask, because I'd also like to hear what you think of the Great Mage's appearance in the Hero's Return quest, if you ever get to see it.

Not yet, I've been so busy the past few weeks. Yes, I know, I might just create some random character and let them rest for a month, if it's just about seeing the quest once.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I assumed the halls that got attacked were in cities we (the players) don't have access to, or something. I had to make sense of it somehow; otherwise, it sounds like a con the prince is trying to pull. (...)
I figured it was his perspective from his sheltered experience. I know that's me reading into it again, but it really doesn't make sense otherwise.

So often we have to try to make sense of things somehow. I'd like to have more situations where we clearly see things and don't have to rely on things someone tells us (sometimes things that even seem rather doubtful).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's like that on Solstice with our position in the Stirk Fellowship. I'm beginning to think everyone on Tamriel suffers from some sort of memory-loss condition, perhaps brought about by the sheer number of catastrophes striking the continent.

It's a problem that could be easily avoided by, well, just not using a specific term to address us. I think that's the only reasonable solution if they don't want to make double recordings for everything (one for people who are a member of the group and one for people who do that quest without having joined beforehand).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol! After I completed the quest, I guessed the "mystery" was that Mezzama had been impersonating a known member

I'm sure that's what was intended as the "surprising" or "mysterious" thing going on, although I figured it out much earlier than when we got the official reveal. And not for the first time.

These things are often too obvious somehow. If you just pay a bit of attention to the events, you'll already know what's going on - but your character still can't say a thing, which can be a bit frustrating at times. The worst so far for me was sending those people on Galen into that cathedral I already knew was absolutely unsafe - I basically condemned these people to death by not having a dialogue option to warn them. Luckily, I didn't care much about these characters anyway, since they were only "placeholders" that had been introduced superficially just before, but still: It wasn't exactly a good experience.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

and then slaughtering everyone from within, but to what purpose? If they were after the Earth Forge, seemed like there would have been better ways to infiltrate the Fighters Guild to find it. This way, they're just drawing unwanted attention to their activities. I guess it's possible they were killing everyone to suck their souls into the soul reapers, but that would have meant transporting one into the guild hall with no one asking any questions or being suspicious of the big, scary looking skull-adorned device, killing everyone to get their souls, and then transporting it out with no sign it had ever been there.

Maybe they just teleport them. If they can teleport a huge sarcophagus, this should work, too.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, we did learn she's not a good actor.

Maybe she had only been told that he's rather dramatic and interpreted it the wrong way.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The real mystery there is why Gabrielle fell for the hammy Great Mage impression. "Gabrielle! Help! Save meeeee!"

Especially since she told us earlier that he gets himself kidnapped on purpose and everything's fine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are they broken? I thought it was just stylistic wrappings to evoke mummy/zombie wrappings. You know those crazy necromancers, always wanting to look edgy, and since they couldn't get a skeleton horse, they had to make it look as much like a mummy horse as possible.

If it was a zombie horse, I'd say the legs were broken and it died because someone decided that poor thing would serve a better purpose as a sausage dish - but luckily (although that term might be debatable), a necromancer reanimated it before that could happen. Which leads to the question: Could a sausage be a necromantic thrall?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, figures! "To honor the memory of Shalidor" sounds to me like the Great Mage saying, "I want to be called Arch-Mage, too!"

But does it sound dramatic enough to be suitable for Vanny?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It could be one of those things that would be nice to do, and they might even want to, but they don't have the time/resources for it among all the other things that take higher priority.

I think immersion, including a world that feels alive, is an aspect that might be important for a big portion of the playerbase. And I'm not only talking about coughing miners or the occasional beggar with a wooden leg, of course. It's generally nice to see things going on in cities, npcs using different animations, maybe carrying things around, and walking around in what looks at least like a rudimentary schedule. I think it was well done in Ontus, for example. In my opinion that's something they should at least keep on that level or even expand on. With background chatter, of course, and dialogue bits for everyone - but we already discussed the lack of those single random lines in Western Solstice (Still not sure whether it's a bug or not, since I unfortunately didn't get any reaction - we'll see, sooner or later, I guess; The sound when you sell items is back now, at least! So, who knows, maybe that's indeed another sound-related bug and will also be repaired at some point).

Another aspect that I find having an influence on immersion is houses - being able to enter them and look around, having them reasonably furnished, and also having a bit of clutter around so it looks like someone actually lives there. It was somehow impressive to see that in the base game and early dlcs/chapters - you could go almost everywhere in cities. Now, most doors are sealed, and it's truly a pity. I found that really extreme in the current zone where you often feel like you're just running through some movie set with nothing more but coulisses instead of real buildings.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's future lore, though. Does it exist in the time of the second era when our characters run around?

Sloads exist. Their offspring exists (obviously). The fundament is there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know, and though the books couldn't be more than several centuries old at this point, by the time of Skyrim they'd be significantly older. Anyway, that's why I'm curious about when they were written. I'm wondering if they're new books now in the second era year 582, or if they've already been around for awhile and earned that classic status. I couldn't find much about the author with a quick online search, though, much less any definitive answer as to when they were written.

We rarely know anything about authors of lorebooks, unless we meet them directly in one of the games. Sometimes I think it's a pity since it might help estimating the reliability of some accounts we've read.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be ideal. In the case of the Fighters Guild halls being "wiped out," that might also have been limited by story continuity. If a player is going through the guild quest for the first time, the guild halls have to be normal, and though that could be solved with phasing, that might be more trouble than it's worth. If they did use phasing to represent the decimated guild halls for the quest, how long would they leave them like that? I'm assuming the guild will want to rebuild their ranks and fill those halls again, so at some point we'd need to see them renewed, but it couldn't be the same people as before, so they couldn't just return us to the original state. That creates three versions of the same in-game space for admittedly very little use. I would certainly like that level of detail, but I can understand why it doesn't always make it into the game.
They also could have just had the prince name the specific guild halls that were wiped out. Seems like the kind of detail he should know anyway.

Or they could have chosen not to go for the "Several guild halls have been completely eradicated!" drama but given us a different start instead. There are so many possibilities apart from some large-scale destruction that then can't actually be found in game: Guild Master was attacked/disappeared, strange occurances in some town (possibly with Guild members somehow involved), disturbing documents were found, travellers reported sightings of groups of people using some weird new apparatus in the wilderness (Which would be something we actually can come across ourselves, even outside the quest - and someone who already saw those things while questing overland before could immediately say "Yes, I've seen that too"),...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's very hard to surprise me in any narrative form. This is mostly because I'm well-versed in literature and language (I was a writing and literature major before pivoting to teacher training), but it's also to do with the relative simplicity of the stories in games. I do still enjoy most of the stories, and on some level they've all entertained me.

It's one thing to be able to guess what might happen because one knows common narrative structures - but another if the allegedly "secret", "mysterious" turn of events was basically already explained to us very clearly if we just paid attention to all dialogues and lorebooks that we were confronted with to that point (I'm not talking about obscure background lore, but really what we get shown in game as part of that very story). And that's been the case several times through the past few years, and always made me wonder: Why? Why present it to us so clearly but then still let npcs (and the player character, through the dialogue options we get) treat it as a secret? If it's supposed to be a secret, then it should be something the player can't have learned in that story before, and the outcome could be, at most, guessed (based on other experiences), but not directly concluded from the text we already got.

Syldras wrote: »

Also, I think it's possible to be more daring instead of just using the same structures and tropes again and again. I know, one argument might be that the average customer has to be able to follow the story, and has to be able to relate to it somehow, but truly: TES3 was rather alien in some aspects, especially for a fantasy video game, and it was still a huge success. If inspiration is needed, I'd rather see some obscure Mesoamerican folk tale as a source than the seventh copy of the seventh more or less identical sequel to some current trending Hollywood movie.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, teleports for everything, but my main concern wasn't how they got the thing in; it's that it apparently raised no alarms in anyone and left no trace of its existence behind. If they even used a soul reaper, that is. We don't know much more than that everyone was killed.

Is it possible to teleport souls without the vessel? Or, what do I know, all oxygen from a room?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe. Quite possibly. However, they have had the Great Mage captive for a good bit of time. Did she never just, you know, observe him to see how he acts?

We don't know how he acts when captured. Maybe he keeps bawling all the time. Or complaining.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As to the question: sure, why not? It's all puppetry anyway. What's the animating force behind a thrall? It's not a soul, is it? Every time a necromancer summons a skeletal minion, is a soul consumed from somewhere? Or is it just necromantic magic? If the latter, then anything could be animated, couldn't it?

As far as I know, it's basically about directing life force - in that case into the dead form, where the soul might or might not still linger. So there is a restriction that the item to be animated must be able to store life force somehow. It's a good question what's needed for that. It's most probably not possible with a rock, but for a skeleton which strictly seen also isn't more than some chunks of hydroxylapatite and collagen (and traces of a few other things), is it possible, we see those getting reanimated all the time.

Syldras wrote: »

A different thing; I was just browsing a few screenshots I made earlier, and came across this quote from the Prophet from the main quest again:
"The God of Schemes invaded my mind many times during my imprisonment. It was a torturous experience. But by forcing his way into my mind, he inadvertently opened his own thoughts to me (...) We are connected, he and I. With concentration, I can see through his eyes. He feels my presence and it fills him with rage."
Makes me wonder whether Mannimarco might have developed the same kind of connection.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, the crafting area in Solstice is probably the most convenient one they've ever set up. It's all in a confined space, and the turn-in boxes are mere steps away. If efficient daily crafting writs is important to you, that's the best place to do them. Compare that to the earlier areas, where the crafting is set up to more or less make sense within the world and the turn-in spots are more logically located near to transport (wagons, or docks). Over the years, they've made the crafting areas smaller and more convenient, and I wonder if that's driven by player activity and feedback. Based on player behavior and feedback, active and immersive cities might seem less important.

Although I've never used that one yet, I've seen it while exploring the city, of course. And I think it's fine - it's possible that someone would arrange the whole thing like that. And I know that people wished for something like that, or at least I've seen posts complaining about the walking in crafting areas in this very forum all the time. Usually it was about efficiency - and honestly, while I understand that daily crafting isn't the most interesting thing to do, especially if you do it every day for many years, to me it feels a little strange; sometimes I read posts that feel to me like some people play this game like they're on the run or their house is going to burn down in a minute - they seem to count the seconds for everything they're doing, and if a thing takes more than 5 seconds, they want it changed to something more efficient (I've also seen people getting angry because a group dungeon boss took 8 seconds to be defeated instead of the expected 5 or so - like, how does that even matter? I don't get the need for rushing through everything as fastly as possible, unless you're actually trying to set a time record or so - but anyway, none of my business). And many seem to use a crafting mod anyway where you only have to activate a crafting table and it will automatically craft you everything that's needed to complete all crafting quests you have in your log, without clicking anything. My personal stance is: If I don't actually have the time to do something in game (or to play at all), then I don't do it (the world won't end because of that) and don't expect it to be changed so it can be completed in those few seconds of time I might be able to sacrifice. It's the same with everything in life: Either I do have the time or I don't. I don't start a chess game if I only have a spare minute; I don't go to the movie theater if I only have 5 minutes of time and then suggest the movie to be shortened accordingly. But anyway, I have no interest in telling other people what to think. And I don't mind giving people who seem to be so busy (That's usually the reasoning, that they have little time to play the game, often with an added "I'm not retired yet" - well, a friend of mine and I don't have that much time either, so we just focus on what can be done in that time we have and accept that we have to postpone or skip a few things if we can't afford taking the necessary time that these things require) that they count the seconds while playing the game one crafting area where they can complete everything in 3 seconds or so. But I really hope that being able to run through everything within a few seconds won't be the only thing that's focused on in this game's design from now on. I'd like to see immersive, "realistic" and diverse cities, and not the same "Let's clutter everything into the same corner so people don't have to walk a few seconds" design everywhere now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the Gamescom stream

I would have liked to watch that, also for the Twitch drops, but unfortunately, when I saw the announcement, it was already over. I think announcements weren't that short some years ago?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Rich and Nick spoke a bit about player feedback, and mentioned the difference between what players say, in places like the forums, and what players do in game. They have a lot of metrics they can look at, and the difficulty is figuring out how much weight to put on any data and feedback: if people are saying they want X, what percentage of the population is that and also how viable is it to put in game?

I really hope then that they are aware that people also do things in game out of curiosity and not because they actually like them the way they are. For example, I've read from a dozen of people or so that they really hated the "flirting" in the current story (from the wording and the situation where that dialogue option was available), but they used that option nonetheless out of curiosity what the npc's reply would be. So I really hope just because a lot of people might have clicked that option just to test what will happen, it's not read as "That was a huge success and people loved it - let's recreate more like that!".

Same goes for endeavours and all kinds of grind, really - people might do it because they want rewards, but they could still not enjoy it the way it is.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Are Sloads the type to use their offspring in that way?

Yes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think what you're describing as a lead-up to Solstice would be better served not in the constraints of a prologue quest, where everything has to happen in such a short amount of time. Realistically, it doesn't make sense that our investigation gallops along at a breakneck pace. The idea that scouts can zip around to all corners of Tamriel and send back reports that we can then follow up on in hours...well, it strains the bounds of credibility. (Even with mages and their insta-portals and so forth, especially since they specifically tell us we can take Prince Azah's horse.)
I really do like your outline for a story there, and I think for it to be most effective, it would benefit from being a sort of time-released quest series. I've played other games where a quest series was released one stage a week (and then when it was fully released, the entire thing was available in one go for anyone who came upon it after the initial release) and it can work if done well. That way the drama can start really small and build up over time, and any travel and investigative efforts would make more sense, and even the emotion of dramatic events (like grief over the loss of someone considered a second father, for example) could play out better. That way we could have spent a month or more investigating the Worm Cult and establishing the Stirk Fellowship rather than just doing everything in one day (one hour? I don't know; I never timed the prologue). Would people like it, though? Honestly, I don't know.

That's the problem with most prologues: Too much happening in too little time. I think it was especially extreme this time because of the death in that story, and there's just not enough time for a believable emotional reaction to that - while they seem to want to present a big emotional impact to us, and we also keep interacting with the people that should be grieving. It's not like in earlier prologues no one ever died - but usually, there wasn't that much (and long-term) interaction with the people involved, so you could just imagine they were grieving after you left. In the current prologue we're just around them all the time, and we see - nothing, emotionally. That seems to be the problem in this specific case.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the answer to that could be rather simple: they think people aren't paying attention. I don't know what that might be based on from their perspective, but it has seemed like that's the case more and more over the years.

I have the same impression, and honestly, I don't understand it - and I'd genuinely be interested in understanding the reasoning behind it. Because the impression I get is that things get simplified to cater to people who don't pay much attention because they don't care much - but I don't get why one would try to adapt the writing for specifically these people? If some people don't care for stories, they won't care either way - but the simplified writing will alienate those people who do care.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think it matters if their inspiration is a current movie or an obscure folk tale if they make it fit with the details of the world of the Elder Scrolls. Since even the most obscure folk tale was invented by humans, it will have some element to it, some basis of connection for modern day humans, just as a well-done modern movie will.

That's actually a question I wonder about quite often. I can read old Mesopotamian myths (as translations, although I once thought about learning Sumerian out of curiosity) and I will see common aspects and themes that seem to be a constant part of human nature that existed in every culture, every era and location. Some stories are more or less universal. But then I think back at the time of my university studies and remember some fellow students finding epics from the Middle Ages "weird" (I didn't only study history, but also German philology, which consisted not only of linguistics and literature of the modern period - plus general stuff about communication theory and rhetorics - , but the earlier stages of the German language were also an integral part; So you'd also have to learn Old High German, Middle High German, and even a bit of the Gothic language, the whole grammar, the whole linguistic shifts and theories about why those might have happened, and a big part of course was reading original source texts in those languages and translating and interpreting them - everything from short poems to very extensive epics, and I think we also had a few legal texts from the Middle Ages to translate).

Syldras wrote: »

Anyway, back then I already saw some people were a bit confused by those stories, not fully understanding why those people did what they did and why they were feeling a certain way - because morals and also cultural habits were different in the Middle Ages compared to what's common today, of course. What to do, how the acceptable reaction is culturally supposed to be, etc, in case of some specific event does vary a lot between different eras and also different cultures. I understand that sometimes it might be necessary to learn about cultural habits or also the circumstances of a time to fully grasp for why people did what they did or why some things are described the way they are in a historical source text. But recently, I've come across some younger people (although not even that much younger than myself) who didn't even seem to be able to understand a written account from the 1970's. The same confusion: "Why are those people doing that? It's weird." There seems to be a worrying (for me as a historian, at least) tendency for people not being able to understand anything beyond their everyday experiences anymore.

Syldras wrote: »

The way of thinking seems to get ever narrower, so different experiences can't be understood anymore, and there also doesn't seem to be that much of an interest to understand (instead it just gets labeled as "weird" and incomprehensible immediately). There also doesn't even seem to be an awareness anymore that things and cultural habits might have been different in different eras. So basically there's no way of historical thinking at all anymore. When I was a young child, my classmates and I would at least know "Okay, those people a century ago, or in the Renaissance, or in Antiquity, they believed different things and their society had different habits" (and starting from 1st grade on, we'd learn about these things, more and more each year) - but now I come across adult people online who even fail to imagine how people organized things or navigated before smartphones were common, or how people were able to find information without the internet (so basically a reality that's barely 20 or 30 years ago). They also seem to lack the creativity (or ability for abstraction?) to imagine how that might have worked, with the technical means that already were available back then. Or maybe they just lack interest altogether - interest in anything that goes beyond their daily stuff they're doing anyway. What does that mean for literature, for storytelling? I fear if it goes on with that tendency, we might not see anything non-mundane anymore soon, but only modern everyday stuff with some pseudo-historical/"exotic" coating. But not actually something that goes beyond the ordinary. And for me, that's horribly boring. I want to see things I haven't seen a thousand times already. That's also a reason I don't find most mainstream movies interesting: It's always the same. There are a few every now and then that I like, but most are, how to call it? Always the same shallow spectacle. I know the main purpose is to be entertaining, but why shouldn't entertainment have thought-provoking aspects at times? There have been stories (both books and movies or shows) that easily did both.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh, probably. If the Worm Cult needs something to happen for plot reasons, suddenly it's possible.

And that's something I also don't enjoy much in writing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We kind of do--we did see him when he was captured in Coldharbour. Though he seemed to have less freedom of movement there than they permit him this time around.

I think we only saw his split aspects but the physical body was unconscious which usually prevents people from blabbering?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Though I could see him complaining to the Worm Cult about his capture, I doubt he'd cry or show fear to them. He'd be more likely to say, "You made a great mistake when you captured the Great Mage!"

Who knows. He's been captured for a long time now. In Coldharbor they only had him for a few days at most (or even just hours), since upon our arrival we're immediately hurried to go free him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I was thinking about it more and wondering the same thing. A skeleton doesn't seem like it could hold much life force on its own.

Then again: What do we know about the metaphysics of that? Maybe everything that was part of a living organism once can hold life force. And also, we're probably thinking too much again. Necromantically revived (or otherwise restless) skeletons are so much of a fantasy trope; and just a bunch of bones without any muscles and tendons shouldn't be able to move anyway, if we look at it realistically.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then I was wondering: is every skeleton thrall the complete set of bones from a single person, or do necromancers mix and match out of a general bone pile they have? Corpses might be easily come by, but full, pristine skeletons?

I think we're supposed to raise them from the ground, based on some assumption that, no matter where you go, someone must have been buried around there somewhere throughout the centuries. Which of course isn't very realistic since that certainly doesn't apply to every location on the whole continent, and of course, you'd usually not come across a complete intact skeleton if the bones were buried for a longer time (of course that could be avoided by carrying all bones you need with you - but I've never seen necromancers carrying a sack full of bones with them either - or at least not everywhere they go; they might collect corpses and bones if they have specific plans for some bigger attack or something).

Syldras wrote: »

As for mixing bones, that seems to be possible; but even with a big pile of random bones, you wouldn't necessarily be able to reconstruct something useful. If buried, smaller bones dissolve first - that includes finger bones, for example. So no fingers for the thrall And even if you could live with a skeletal minion that can't even carry a weapon since it has no fingers, the thing that would decay next would be the vertebrae - and then, it really gets complicated... What to do with a thrall without a spine?! In the end, you'd probably have a few skulls (without their lower jaw), a pelvis, and a few bigger arm and leg bones. Wonderful!

If we assume that necromancers can just magically restore a creature fully even if there's just a pile of dust left, that changes things, of course. But I think we've been told that the magical reconstruction is rather complicated and nothing the average idiot cultist is capable of.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Would Molag Bal have needed to force his way into Mannimarco's mind? What I always got from that bit of speech was that it was the invasion that created the unforeseen connection. But if the Prophet was mistaken and it wasn't the forceful entry into someone's mind that forged the connection, but just the repeated connection of mind-to-mind, then it's possible Mannimarco has something like that. There's also the possibility that Molag Bal, being who is is, did force his way into Mannimarco's mind and, if so, seems likely the same thing could happen with Mannimarco that did with the Prophet.

We know that Mannimarco was suffering from hallucinations while he was imprisoned in Coldharbor after his death, hearing horrible sounds, having the feeling to suffocate in some kind of toxic nebula, etc. I've been wondering where those hallucinations came from, whether they were directly sent into his mind by Molag Bal or not. If so, then we can say there was a mental connection, and then it's possible that Mannimarco still has lasting access to Molag Bal's mind as well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have noticed a trend here on the forums of people wanting to get through things as quickly as possible. Usually these are things like daily crafting writs or endeavors or golden pursuits, which many people seem to treat as a list of chores they have to do before they can play the game. Sometimes I wonder if people actually want to do these things, or they think they have to for (insert reason here). Well, that's the way they play the game, so if that's what they want to do, ok. I just find it unfortunate that that particular approach to the game seems to be getting catered to at the expense of other playstyles. That's how it appears to me, anyway.

I want to be honest: I do understand how these things might feel like lists of chores to many people. It might still be a little more interesting with Golden Pursuits because the tasks we get there are still new, but daily endeavours... It's always the same things, going on for over 4 years now. I guess most people do them because they need/want the currency, not because they still find them interesting. And with Golden Pursuits, there's often also the fear of missing out some special item reward.

Syldras wrote: »

I honestly don't enjoy this type of game design much - to basically keep people busy with always the same tasks over years, that they often don't even seem to enjoy anymore (otherwise they wouldn't try to get it done as fastly as possible), but still rush through because the currency is valuable or there's some special limited-time item reward they don't want to miss. I'm personally often not that interested in them, so I skip events and endeavours at times, but some people love to get complete collections of everything, so they do it even if it bores them. Same with that anniversary event grind where people (including myself) tried to get some style by grinding dolmens or world bosses for over 20 hours, which at some point also wasn't that fun anymore, but after 10 or 15 hours, you also don't want to give up in case you're lucky in the next 5 minutes and you don't want it to have all been in vain completely (and also, during the first event, it wasn't even clear whether these items were limited to this very 10th anniversary, or whether they'd ever drop again in some future event)... It was rather frustrating. And I'm not sure whether frustration is the sentiment one would want one's customers to feel, and then remember when it comes to one's game. At least I often wonder, if I read in this forum about players being really frustated about one thing or another, whether this might not be counterproductive. If I imagine I design something, I'd want to player to actually like that thing and don't end up with the sentiment "That's an annoying hassle I force myself through for the reward only". I'm aware that grinding is a typical aspect of this type of game, but I think if people get too annoyed, there's the risk they could lose their interest in the game altogether.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sloads just keep getting worse and worse.

They seem rather horrible. Then again, we rarely see them and most things we know about them are just some written accounts that don't necessarily have to be reliable - so who knows how much of that is true.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, and that's a pity, because big emotional impacts can work in a story, and I do like to see them trying for it.

I just finished the prologue on my side character earlier, and if you already know what happens, it honestly all feels even a bit stranger. The first time, I was, situatively, a bit more emotionally involved, I guess - as in wondering whether a certain someone truly died, or whether Vanny could really fall for that ruse... But if you've already seen it once and look at the dialogues in a bit more emotionally detached way, it's even weirder to observe that emotional rollercoaster the characters are going through within only a few minutes; from a dramatic/theatric "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!" and being totally distraught, to being calm and optimistic again after you said just one single sentence (it's truly just one line you say, and suddenly you're told: yeah, right, it's all fine,...), to then being distraught (every time to the point of wanting to give up) again when the next unplanned thing happens, and then being optimistic and energetic again after two minutes. It somehow doesn't feel like a consistent situation with the emotional state of the involved characters being congruent and appropriate for the situation. It would have been different if those emotional changes would have occured over several days or weeks, but there's also nothing that indicates that there's supposed to be some break or passing of time somewhere inbetween - no one telling you they'd have to investigate something first or so. The opposite, it's written as all happening in one go, basically in real time: It feels like you're hurrying from one location to the next, which is also understandable considering the urgency of the situation, but those emotional up and downs of the npcs involved just don't fit that very short period of time that the story takes place in. With some narrative breaks inbetween - the prologue consists of several seperate quests, after all - and some indicator of passing time ("We have to investigate xy, we might have the results ready tomorrow/in 3 days/in a week"), if would have probably felt a bit more plausible - even if the player can choose to pick up the next quest immediately. But you'd at least know, okay, some time is supposed to have passed now.

Syldras wrote: »

I also found it rather strange again that you can choose to insult Vanny despite him being actually really friendly in that situation. He tells you it's a pleasure you see you again, thanks you for your help, and compliments you by telling you that you've been as reliable as ever - and then you can just throw an insult at him. It feels random somehow, like it's unrelated to what's happening and like it might only based on the thought "Players don't like that guy, so give them the option to be rude, they'll find it fun". It doesn't really seem to fit the situation and the way we've been treated before - to me, it feels there's generally some incongruency between the mood of situations and the dialogues (that flirting in Part 1 - while we're in some dangerous ruin and need to hurry because everyone could die - is another such situation). Somehow makes me wonder whether different writers write the bigger story and the dialogues, so the one who writes a dialogue might not always know in detail in which overall story or type of situation the conversation takes place? Anyway, the (possible) rudeness towards Vanny also seems like it doesn't really fit the situation and the relationship to that character that the player character has up to that point. Yes, Vanny's comment that Merric shouldn't have hit that soul collector device thing might have felt a bit insensitive, but we've been through a few dire situations with Vanny up to that point, and also for the current situation it's indicated that he means well and has a friendly stance towards us. What would you do if a friend words something weirdly or might, in a stressful situation, not fully think something through? I can say that even if I might be a little appalled by some comment, I'd try to address that in a careful, friendly way, assuming he was probably just a little clumsy with his wording, or maybe he's socially a little awkward. But I certainly wouldn't yell some brash insult at him. I think that's really the crucial point: The prologue is clearly supposed to take place after the whole Coldharbor story from the base game, it's canon that we we survived that together, and all those characters involved, like Skordo and Gabrielle, are written as having become our friends in that process (whether we want it or not). Vanny was also there, all the time. Why isn't he recognized as a friend, too? Instead he's somehow presented like being some stranger we're rather sceptical of or that we even clearly dislike. And while I personally actually don't even want the game to define for us how our character feels towards some npc (I'd prefer to get different dialogue options - for everyone - to make this decision myself), it shows that Vanny is clearly being treated differently than the other people we've been in Coldharbor with here.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

On another note, what do you think of the new replay ability for quest dialogue? I thought it was going to allow us to replay the whole dialogue string over if we wanted, but from what I can tell, it's only for the current window you're on. I mean, you can't go back to a previous section of the dialogue and replay that; you can only replay it while you're on the same pane with the words. I don't have a problem with how it is; it's just different than what I thought it would be.

I suspected it to be exactly that way. Basically so you can listen to the last text bit again in case you have to leave your pc immediately because the doorbell or phone rings and you need to hurry. Or maybe that's just my interpretation and the average person might be distracted by the movie they watch on their second screen or the music they listen to while playing, or whatever (Honestly, I couldn't follow a story like that). In any way, I appreciate that a feature was added for the narrative part of the game, and I also see it as an appreciation of the wonderful work the voice actors do for ESO.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Legal texts from the Middle Ages must have been fascinating to read. The law back then must have been so different to what we're used to. Nothing to do with ESO, I know.

When it comes to the Middle Ages, I find all kinds of source texts interesting. When it comes to some other historical languages I learnt in school and at university, in particular Latin and Ancient Greek, it might have been interesting to read legal and political texts once, but I generally prefer verse (I truly don't want to read Solon's Laws ever again But reading and translating parts of Virgil's Aeneid , Ovid's Metamorphoses or Homer's Odyssey once more? I'd do that. And for some reason I now have to think of Julius Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War again; I had to translate parts of them extensively in 10th grade or so, and while it where interesting accounts of course, it wasn't that appealing as a piece of literature, or at least not for me).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Being able to step back from your own experience and look at something from someone else's perspective is very much a skill that needs to be learned. It requires critical thinking, too, and that seems to be falling by the wayside more and more. It's an odd situation where it's easier than ever to access information and broaden one's perspective, but people are seeming to become more uninformed (or misinformed) and insular.

I'm wondering all the time about the incongruence I see: On the one hand the importance of diversity, cultural sensitivity and tolerance is emphasized all the time, on the other hand there seems to be the odd expectation that everyone thinks and does the same and has the same beliefs and values (and as soon as someone doesn't think or behave like that, it immediately leads to confusion). Seems to me there's a big difference between the values officially proclaimed and the actual thinking. Even funnier if the differences in thinking are actually caused by having a different cultural background or for example by autism - because that's also something that comes up as a topic all the time (I often see statements how important "awareness" about these aspects is), but then, if they're actually confronted with it for once,... well.

Syldras wrote: »

Now, when it comes to fiction, I also have the feeling to see this tendency increasingly often: That even if a fantasy world with all kinds of different cultures is depicted, their values tend to be rather similar, with no big outliers anymore. And most of all, there's a rather strong adherence to real world modern time ideas and sentiments - that might not fit the depicted world (for example a medieval-ish one that one would expect also shows at least somewhat medieval-ish mindsets) or the lore that was already established some time ago. Of course a fantasy narration doesn't have to copy the real world era it mimics completely. It's fantasy after all. But if an elven alchemist from some remote hidden medieval village has the same world view like the neighbours' teenage punk daughter or talks like the local gas station attendant, it also feels dissonant.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We had to free his body, right? He was suspended in something, I think (not sure about that). He's definitely awake when we send the three essences back to him, because he says things like, "Ah, stamina, welcome back!" But while we didn't talk much to his captured physical form, we did chat up his three essences, and they are part of him, and therefore a clue to how he might act when imprisoned.

I just looked it up on Youtube: First, he's not visible, but the dialogue (Spoken by one of his essences, I think?) says something about a cage that needs to be unsealed (probably off-screen in that video - the player is somehow rushing through it without looking around much). Upon unsealing it, he appears floating a bit above ground in some yellow light effect, the body being completely limp, so I'd assume it's unconscious and therefore rendered completely useless for the cultists. He doesn't start speaking (or moving) before the first aspect has returned into his body.

I'm also not sure how much of his actual behaviour in captivity we see in those essences. It rather feels they're things on their own or maybe suppressed parts of him, but not necessarily a mirror to how he as a person would behave. What a person might actually feel and what public imagine they openly show to the world, can be a very different thing, after all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder how long it is canonically. How long did it take us to go through the main quest in Tamriel time?

When it comes to the question how long Vanny was imprisoned in Coldharbor during the main quest: What we can say is that upon arriving in Coldharbor, we're immediately told by Cadwell to go to the city, and there, the Groundskeeper tells us to hurry and go rescue Vanny and the Ayleid king (the daedra must have caught Vanny rather fastly ). We're not supposed to wander around somewhere, but to get those two men freed as fast as possible. So from what exactly we're doing until they're freed, if done without idling around somewhere else, I'd say it can't have been more than a few days at most (if not just hours).

Now, when it comes to the latest time Vanny got captured...

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

From what we could say to Wormblood when bargaining for the Great Mage in return for the gift of death (one of the options was something like: he must be getting on your nerves by now) and the reply Wormblood gave ("I see you know him well" or something to that effect) it certainly sounds like the Great Mage was posturing a bit for them.

We notice through his projections and reports that his situation changes a few times. At some point he has his wrists bound, later he hasn't. At the beginning he's in a small cell, later he seems to not only walk around somewhere but also has spoken to people. There's just more things happening, there are indicators of passing time (The long period between the prologue and the arrival on Solstice, most of all - in the prologue we're told it would take probably months to locate that island alone; which is also rather contradictory to the not-exactly-secluded society we see there then, but that's another topic; so I'd assume until we set our first foot on Solstice, Vanny has already been a prisoner of the Worm Cult for weeks if not months), and then, upon arriving on Solstice, we're also doing a lot of different things throughout the main quest, which would probably also take days, and at the end, Vanny still isn't free.

It's a big difference to the basegame main story where we arrive at different locations because of that teleportation mistake, he gets caught, and we're immediately told, really within minutes upon our arrival in Coldharbor, about what happened and that we need to hurry and go rescue him. Now he's imprisoned for months already, who knows how his mental state is right now (and honestly, after that long time I'd find it unrealistic if there was no change at all when we finally free him; strongwilled personality or not).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ha, yeah: realistically it doesn't make any sense at all for a skeleton to be going about anywhere. I just assume its magic keeping those bones in place and allowing them to move.

Or it's more a stylistic or graphics thing and they are supposed to still have muscles and tendons - but we don't see them because it would look "weird"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, yeah, as Mannimarco said: there are corpses everywhere. So shambling thralls in some stage of decay, yes, those should be easily come by. But a perfect, whole skeleton? Not only do bones decay at different rates, things like that do shift in the earth/soil.

A bit, but not that much. In archaeological sites it's often possible to locate singular graves and their contents; it's not like some bones end up who knows where. At least when it comes to burials. There are also cultures who did not bury their dead but had above-ground sites for them (sometimes called charnel grounds), and there, the bones would move a bit more, due to wind, rain, wild animals, etc. Same goes for cultures that returned their dead to nature by leaving them in some forest or on a mountain top, of course, or who sent them down a river.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess one could plunder a mausoleum, but it would have to be a very old one.

The best chance for a necromancer to get a more or less complete skeleton would probably be from a sarcophagus placed above ground (in a mausoleum or somewhere else). Keeps the bones at one place, and the decomposition is also a bit different than when surrounded by soil - the bones dissolve more slowly, so even smaller onces might probably still be present and intact.

An ossuary might also be a good choice, but that depends on at what point of decay and how carefully the bones are transfered to that location (because an ossuary only holds bones, it's not the original burial location). Same goes for catacombs; although there, different types exist: Some are original burial grounds, others are just places where bones get transfered to at some later point after the original burial.

As for the skeletization process: It doesn't take that long. It's, on average (it varies a bit depending on the soil, humidity and temperature, etc), just about 2 years below ground (Well, okay; tendons, fingernails and hair last a bit longer - about 4 years), in a sarcophagus above ground it takes much longer than that, but also not longer than a few decades at most. If it's not too drafty there, at least - too much draft can lead to the decomposition stopping and the body drying out instead, which then is called natural mummification. That's basically what happened to the draugr (and the lich) in ESO (upon closer look, they're not skeletal, but still have dried-up flesh - they also still have noses).

Maybe I should write a necromancer's guide to where to actually find corpses.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The standard brain is capable of producing hallucinations without outside influence (what are dreams, after all, or ghost sightings?), so it's possible those hallucinations were just the product of his super-charged supposedly Aldmer brain. But if not that, it could have been the torture causing him to hallucinate. And, yes, it also could have been Molag Bal, because that is exactly the kind of thing he would do.

His hallucinations sound rather specific to me, he can clearly destribe what he sees, hears and feels, and it also seems to affect all his senses. Usually, what you'd get from sleep deprivation, for example, is much more subtle and undefined. A friend usually heard something that reminded him of a whispery radio static noise when he was about to fall asleep in a state of overfatigue. And what I experienced after not sleeping for 6 days was just like a feeling of some moving shade or so in my peripheral vision (and only the first time, the second time there was nothing at all), but nothing clearly definable, and it was also clear to me that that's just my eyes being tired and nothing else. What does happen is that I get a little jittery after 2 days or so, senses get stronger and even a small noise can already make you jump. I think it's called hypervigilance. But that's clearly no hallucinations.

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, okay, I just read that the average person gets "mild visual disturbances after 24 hours, followed by complex hallucinations, delusions, and even psychosis-like symptoms after 48 to 72 hours" of sleeplessness. So who knows what Mannimarco was experiencing (I'm just glad right now I don't seem to be "the average person", as it would be rather inconvenient if I became psychotic whenever I decided to stay awake for just 2 days) - but from a narrative standpoint, I somehow like the idea more that Molag Bal might directly send him fake perceptions as a means of torture.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Let's say Mannimarco does have lasting access to Molag Bal's mind. What does he do with that ability? Good way to keep himself out of Bal's clutches, I would think.

If I was a megalomaniacal Altmer I'd try to find a way to manipulate Molag Bal through that. If he could send me hallucinations, who knows what I could send to him?