Preserve class balance AND class identity - alter skill lines only when they are used as a subclass

PvXGamer · August 15

So...someone thought the solution is to nerf NB mains because they have a shiny toy that everyone wants to play with. That's a real quick way to irritate a lot of your playbase. Grim Focus, in its current form, has been in play for how long now? What should be happening is that the Assassination skill line, and any other skill line for that matter, has subtle and slight changes when used as a subclass to preserve balance as well as preserve class identity. When the skill line is used by the class it belongs to, in this instance referring to the Assassination skill line, it should remain unchanged. This would also provide reason/incentive to run "pure" class builds.

Erickson9610 · August 15

I think Subclass skill lines and regular skill lines should maintain parity. It's just not feasible trying to balance two separate versions of every single Class ability.

Kwik1 · August 15

That kinda defeats the entire purpose of subclassing. I get people feel subclass builds are OP, but even pure builds still perform well and are quite useable. Yes you can achieve more power using subclass, but if you NEED to be a meta player then thats a "you" problem (not referring to OP, just in general)

Play what you want and enjoy the game and stop worrying if someone else will be more powerful. Since day 1 this has existed in different classes/builds, now it is just happening again as subclass.

PvXGamer · August 15

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think Subclass skill lines and regular skill lines should maintain parity. It's just not feasible trying to balance two separate versions of every single Class ability.

This is regarding a class skill line that has been in existence for how many years now? The only issue that has come up has been because of subclassing and people 'pigeon holing' Assassination as a "must have" when they want to promote variety. Add to that, I have seen many questions here regarding what the reason to pure class is anymore. You're saying it's too difficult to have 2 separate skill lines, yet they both already exist. The current one and the one created on the PTS. And no, I don't main a NB, but I did main a necro until I came back and saw how that was mishandled. I'd rather not see another class get 'torn' up when the solution is too simple. The solution I provided would solve all their subclassing problems. Yes, it would take some effort on their part, BUT it would enable them to balance the subclassing itself without alienating their playerbase who are 'mains' of whatever class is being focused on by all the 'meta subclassers'.

Rkindaleft · August 15

Just move the W/SD to Shadow. Nobody who subclasses Nightblade takes that line for DPS and pure NBs wouldn't end up getting a nerf. According to a user poll it's the least picked subclassed line in the whole game and could use a buff anyway.

Subclassed build gets a nerf, pure build retains effectiveness.

Erickson9610 · August 15

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Just move the W/SD to Shadow. Nobody who subclasses Nightblade takes that line for DPS and pure NBs wouldn't end up getting a nerf. According to a user poll it's the least picked subclassed line in the whole game and could use a buff anyway.

Subclassed build gets a nerf, pure build retains effectiveness.

The best way to balance Subclassing vs Pureclassing is to split the buffs up between the three skill lines of a Class.

For instance, Bone Tyrant offers buffs to the summons in Grave Lord and Living Death, which you can only make use of if you're a Necromancer.

The original 4 Classes split their DD/Healing/Tanking skills between their skill lines. This is another way to balance Subclassing; the 3 DLC Classes are not the way to balance Subclassing. Winter's Embrace is both a damage dealing and a tanking line, which is the sort of direction other skill lines should take.

That is to say that we shouldn't have another Arcanist. Cleanly splitting skill lines into DD/Healing/Tanking roles is how you get people to double or triple up on a particular role.

I would much prefer if future Classes (which we will eventually get) go back to prioritizing theme, while splitting the necessary tools for DD/Healing/Tanking across the three skill lines, like how the original 4 Classes were balanced. Then overperforming skills in any individual Class skill line for any Class can be adjusted to make alternatives more viable.

Tariq9898 · August 15

Kwik1 wrote: »

That kinda defeats the entire purpose of subclassing. I get people feel subclass builds are OP, but even pure builds still perform well and are quite useable. Yes you can achieve more power using subclass, but if you NEED to be a meta player then thats a "you" problem (not referring to OP, just in general)

Play what you want and enjoy the game and stop worrying if someone else will be more powerful. Since day 1 this has existed in different classes/builds, now it is just happening again as subclass.

Pure builds need to be on par (or close to) subclassing builds. Right now, there’s a 40% more DPS output on subclass vs pure class. That is way too much. I don’t mind if there’s a bit of gap, but no more than 10%. There needs to be better balance.

I enjoy playing on my DK. And right now, people on discord are asking for X/Y/Z skill lines for even the most basic vet trial gear runs without HM or trifecta. This is because subclass just has a higher chance of success, so much so that raid leads are alienating anyone who stays pure or is even just 1 skill line off. There’s the problem.

Tariq9898 · August 15

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I think Subclass skill lines and regular skill lines should maintain parity. It's just not feasible trying to balance two separate versions of every single Class ability.

There should not be this degree of extreme chasm. I don’t mind a bit, but there needs to be more balance and this is overdone.

YandereGirlfriend · August 15

PvXGamer wrote: »

So...someone thought the solution is to nerf NB mains because they have a shiny toy that everyone wants to play with. That's a real quick way to irritate a lot of your playbase. Grim Focus, in its current form, has been in play for how long now? What should be happening is that the Assassination skill line, and any other skill line for that matter, has subtle and slight changes when used as a subclass to preserve balance as well as preserve class identity. When the skill line is used by the class it belongs to, in this instance referring to the Assassination skill line, it should remain unchanged. This would also provide reason/incentive to run "pure" class builds.

Bowproc has been wildly overpowered for literal years. Just because Assassination as a skill line gets favorable treatment does not mean that it ever deserved that sort of power to begin with. The easier and better solution is to simply shift some of the power of Assassination into the very obviously underperforming Shadow line.

Pure classes don't lose anything that way and balance for the rest of the game is restored. EZ.

Araneae6537 · August 15

No, we should be able to change a character to be more like different class than what we originally created them as, if desired, not a gimped version.

As it is, there are tradeoffs as many bonuses are for skills of a specific class or buff one kind of damage so you have to combine things thoughtfully to not dilute or be redundant.

@Erickson9610 I agree; I like how the original classes have skill lines that ate more thematic than role based. The only changes needed, IMHO, are making subpar skills (many of sorcerer’s, esp. Dark Magic) up to standard.

Tariq9898 · August 16

Buffing pure classes close to subclassing levels adds more build diversity and options to all players across the board… from casual to endgame.

I’m not asking ZOS to take anything away from subclassing but to simply give more to pure classes. I’d be okay if it was no more than 10% extra DPS on average.

As I said earlier, the gap (40%) is simply too large that raid leads ask for specific skill lines for even the most basic vet trial runs.

The gap should be much closer so that raid leads that ask for specific skill lines are only doing so because they’re going for trifectas or score pushing. Less alienating that way and more welcoming.

This promotes inclusivity whilst closing some of the gap between casuals and endgame players, which is a separate topic altogether.

katanagirl1 · August 16

Imagine having to take a nerf because someone thinks you don’t need it. I’d say lol but it’s not funny. I have a pure stamblade main.

YandereGirlfriend · August 16

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Imagine having to take a nerf because someone thinks you don’t need it. I’d say lol but it’s not funny. I have a pure stamblade main.

No fair-minded person would look at Bowproc (and Assassination as a whole) and think, "Yep, this is well-balanced."

Bowproc was already wildly overperforming and then they backed up the Brinks truck full of unique Crit% bonuses on the line for no discernible reason in U46.

Meanwhile the entire Shadow line goes starving.

Iriidius · August 16

They should use the passives to balance skillines.
If an active class skill after 11 years suddenly does something different like hurticane not give major resolve anymore even when (pure) sorcerer get mojor resolve on another skill it destroys the feeling of the class but when some of the class passives get moved to another class skilline that changes nothing for pure classes if the passives are not dependent on the skills. All 4 stormcalling passives are independent of active skills and could be moved to other skilline.

Iriidius · August 16

Kwik1 wrote: »

That kinda defeats the entire purpose of subclassing. I get people feel subclass builds are OP, but even pure builds still perform well and are quite useable. Yes you can achieve more power using subclass, but if you NEED to be a meta player then thats a "you" problem (not referring to OP, just in general)

Play what you want and enjoy the game and stop worrying if someone else will be more powerful. Since day 1 this has existed in different classes/builds, now it is just happening again as subclass.

Easy said and done if all you do is easy noncompetitive content like questing, openworld and dungeons that are not vet dlc.
Even when only doing quests for whitestrake mayham event tickets it still sucks getting attacked and killed by a subclasser on a pureclass build that you could have beaten before he subclassed.

Lysorris · August 16

I feel like subclassing skill lines should not provide passives for that tree. Classes would still have their identity due to this and subclassing we would move form subclassing all 2 skill lines to just one or just playing pureclass.

Subclassing would transform into what it should be - a substitute. Right now it feels like your own class is liability as you can change all the skill lines but still have to stuck with one of your original class. This system does not really make sense.

With no passives, choosing subclass skill line would still allow to make you build complete but without "making" everybody to do that. It would also make you think more about your choices over choosing overpreforming class tress.

Xarc · August 16

what class identity are you talking about ?

and, what is the point after subclassing ?

Erickson9610 · August 16

I don't want to lose the passives from Subclassed skill lines. Those were my primary reason for leveling up those skill lines in the first place.

Plus, it wouldn't make much sense to adopt only a skill line's active abilities. You'd be weaker without the passives since you'd also be giving up the passives of one of your base class skill lines.

BasP · August 16

While I do get your standpoint, I don't think class skills and subclass skills need to be balanced separately. If a skill is objectively over- or underpowered, whether it's used by a build that makes use of subclassing or not, an adjustment is warranted in my opinion.

In the case of the aforementioned Grim Focus nerf, I do think the lost Weapon/Spell Damage should've been added to the Shadow skill line however. Pure Nightblades would then still be able to deal the same DPS as before, and the Shadow skill line would maybe be used more by subclassed builds too (though it'd probably need more buffs for that to happen).

licenturion · August 17

It doesn't really matter what ZOS does. As soon as they change up some stuff, people will abandon the current meta and the new pick rate graphs will show that everyone will move to all the next OP combinations until the next patch.

Rinse and repeat. That is the nature of gaming these days. Everyone does it. I played the beta of Battlefield 6 this weekend and after a few hours almost everyone was running around with the 2 same loadouts and weapon attachments because they where the most easy to kill most stuff and to get rewards the most easy.

katanagirl1 · August 18

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Imagine having to take a nerf because someone thinks you don’t need it. I’d say lol but it’s not funny. I have a pure stamblade main.

No fair-minded person would look at Bowproc (and Assassination as a whole) and think, "Yep, this is well-balanced."

Bowproc was already wildly overperforming and then they backed up the Brinks truck full of unique Crit% bonuses on the line for no discernible reason in U46.

Meanwhile the entire Shadow line goes starving.

Well I haven’t kept up with builds on that toon in so long, but last I heard stam builds do better without actually using it, just keeping stacks up. Has that changed?

Mag versions were always better.