(SORCERER) Could we please keep things simple?

CaptainVenom · July 23

The new Blood Magic buff is amazing and it makes up for the loss of magicka increase from Bound Aegis. By having the resource increase passive into two skill lines (Expert Summoner and Blood Magic) it keeps the pure class builds interesting. However, what about keeping things simple? Maintaining this new buff is gonna be a pain during long battles. What about changing it into "WITH A DARK MAGIC ABILITY SLOTTED"? Bound Aegis used to give us 8% Max Magicka, so here's the proposed change:

WITH A DARK MAGIC ABILITY SLOTTED, increases the higher of your Max Magicka or Stamina by 4/8%. When you cast a Dark Magic ability with a cost, you heal for X/X². This effect scales off your Max Health.

Feels to me this is a healthier approach to the Sorcerer class. While keeping it simple, you make its gameplay a lot more comfortable.

madmufffin · July 23

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

MincMincMinc · July 23

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

madmufffin · July 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

Yeah sorc is the only class you objectively have to have multiple of the class lines now to perform any of the roles aside from being an atro bot healer. It makes no sense for it to be singled out to be hamstrung this way aside from an obsessive need to not have storm calling be strong because of streak being so good in pvp. If atro didn't give a unique group buff, I'm quite certain sorc just straight up wouldn't be used in endgame pve, especially after needlessly gimping aegis and armaments.

katorga · July 23

All of the new changes sound non-performant to me.

If not at full health heal, if full health 10% mag or stam, whichever is higher, for 10 seconds?

Bound aegis, minor vulnerability has a duration based on every 10K resists? Am I reading that right?

Just revert everything and leave it at that.

Zyaneth_Bal · July 23

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

Even that aside, the only content where this effect can be activated reliably is group pve, anywhere else and you won't even see it, especially when you might need it most.

madmufffin · July 23

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

Even that aside, the only content where this effect can be activated reliably is group pve, anywhere else and you won't even see it, especially when you might need it most.

And that skill line is still way too bad to be usable in pve lol

Turtle_Bot · July 24

katorga wrote: »

All of the new changes sound non-performant to me.

If not at full health heal, if full health 10% mag or stam, whichever is higher, for 10 seconds?

Bound aegis, minor vulnerability has a duration based on every 10K resists? Am I reading that right?

Just revert everything and leave it at that.

The block mitigation is based on resists and it adds both spell and phys together for this calc (at least that's how it was described)

So a build with 30kphys/30kspell resists will have 60k resists for the purpose of Aegis, granting 6 seconds of +50% block mitigation.

I do agree though that ZOS should just revert all the sorc changes from U47, and go back to the drawing board once they have decided if they want the skill lines to focus on roles, themes or other and apply that to all classes.

Turtle_Bot · July 24

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

Yeah sorc is the only class you objectively have to have multiple of the class lines now to perform any of the roles aside from being an atro bot healer. It makes no sense for it to be singled out to be hamstrung this way aside from an obsessive need to not have storm calling be strong because of streak being so good in pvp. If atro didn't give a unique group buff, I'm quite certain sorc just straight up wouldn't be used in endgame pve, especially after needlessly gimping aegis and armaments.

It's not even multiple anymore, it's all Sorc lines now that are being forced to be kept (especially for Magsorc) with how spread out everything is...

Dropping Daedric Summoning means no Ward ("burst heal"), Curse (delayed burst), Armaments (prophecy/savagery), Aegis (protection), Expert Summoner (max stats) or Atro (best sorc ult for PvE)
Dropping Dark Magic means no Frags (delayed burst on proc), Exchange (sustain + heal), Exploiter (crit chance) or Blood Magic (passive healing + potentially max stats)
Dropping Storm Calling means no Streak (mobility), Lightning Form (armor buff + mobility), surge (brut/sorc + HoT), Overload (unique ultimate) or passives (most of which contribute a lot to the pets DPS)

The problem, as I see it, is not so much Streak being OP in PvP (especially now that everyone has it), it's that the Stamsorc playstyle (in PvP) has benefitted to an insane degree from Sub-classing (and Scribing too), more than most classes/playstyles have (dropping the dead weight abilities/passives for stronger and more synergistic abilities/passives), while Magsorc (even my magsorc that is just "blue resource stamsorc") has been mostly left out of that power spike and is now also getting punished for stamsorcs sub-classing gains with U47 nerfs/shuffles.

Stamsorcs basically got their own class given to them in U46, a class that also happened to be comprised entirely of the strongest individual skill lines in the game, because 90% of stamsorcs class skills were from storm calling anyway and the few remaining skills they "lose" are easily replaced and also upgraded by taking other class skill lines that also grant insane additional bonuses/effects.

Assassination easily replaces Daedric Summoning, giving a true spammable, an insane delayed burst, and crazy passives that synergize far too much with what Stamsorc uses Storm Calling for.

Storm Calling has remained as is, which was 90% of what Stamsorcs took from the Sorc class lines anyway.

This leaves what to replace Dark Magic with, there are 5 routes to go here:
1. Restoring Light - more defensive option, amazing sustain, mitigation and healing, (good option where the extra damage isn't needed).
2. Animal Companions - significantly more burst damage, crazy sustain, some healing and massive AoE delayed burst (with double breach) that stacks with Spec bow (just requires heal soul for the burst heal).
3. Ardent Flame - leans heavily into the Crit + DoT pressure playstyles of the past, abusing high crit chance with massive amounts of damage ticks to reliably proc crit surge every second for very strong healing (replicating some of the most toxic builds ever seen in the game).
4. Aedric Spear - lacks sustain but has insane pressure and a lot of nice damage + mitigation abilities/passives that work well on any build.
5. Keep Dark Magic - the things stamsorc used from this line haven't been touched, and for those skilled enough (or with low enough ping), this line is a nice mix between AC and RL.

madmufffin · July 24

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Feels like it should just be a flat bonus tbh. The line as a whole is already exceptionally weak and could use the love of a good passive. You're never gonna have a Dark Magic ability on both bars (in PVE at least), so then you end up with the annoyance of having your mag stat jump and down.

The annoying part is that sorcs only stack max stats for shields.....which isnt on dark magic lol.

Yeah sorc is the only class you objectively have to have multiple of the class lines now to perform any of the roles aside from being an atro bot healer. It makes no sense for it to be singled out to be hamstrung this way aside from an obsessive need to not have storm calling be strong because of streak being so good in pvp. If atro didn't give a unique group buff, I'm quite certain sorc just straight up wouldn't be used in endgame pve, especially after needlessly gimping aegis and armaments.

It's not even multiple anymore, it's all Sorc lines now that are being forced to be kept (especially for Magsorc) with how spread out everything is...

Dropping Daedric Summoning means no Ward ("burst heal"), Curse (delayed burst), Armaments (prophecy/savagery), Aegis (protection), Expert Summoner (max stats) or Atro (best sorc ult for PvE)
Dropping Dark Magic means no Frags (delayed burst on proc), Exchange (sustain + heal), Exploiter (crit chance) or Blood Magic (passive healing + potentially max stats)
Dropping Storm Calling means no Streak (mobility), Lightning Form (armor buff + mobility), surge (brut/sorc + HoT), Overload (unique ultimate) or passives (most of which contribute a lot to the pets DPS)

The problem, as I see it, is not so much Streak being OP in PvP (especially now that everyone has it), it's that the Stamsorc playstyle (in PvP) has benefitted to an insane degree from Sub-classing (and Scribing too), more than most classes/playstyles have (dropping the dead weight abilities/passives for stronger and more synergistic abilities/passives), while Magsorc (even my magsorc that is just "blue resource stamsorc") has been mostly left out of that power spike and is now also getting punished for stamsorcs sub-classing gains with U47 nerfs/shuffles.

Stamsorcs basically got their own class given to them in U46, a class that also happened to be comprised entirely of the strongest individual skill lines in the game, because 90% of stamsorcs class skills were from storm calling anyway and the few remaining skills they "lose" are easily replaced and also upgraded by taking other class skill lines that also grant insane additional bonuses/effects.

Assassination easily replaces Daedric Summoning, giving a true spammable, an insane delayed burst, and crazy passives that synergize far too much with what Stamsorc uses Storm Calling for.

Storm Calling has remained as is, which was 90% of what Stamsorcs took from the Sorc class lines anyway.

This leaves what to replace Dark Magic with, there are 5 routes to go here:
1. Restoring Light - more defensive option, amazing sustain, mitigation and healing, (good option where the extra damage isn't needed).
2. Animal Companions - significantly more burst damage, crazy sustain, some healing and massive AoE delayed burst (with double breach) that stacks with Spec bow (just requires heal soul for the burst heal).
3. Ardent Flame - leans heavily into the Crit + DoT pressure playstyles of the past, abusing high crit chance with massive amounts of damage ticks to reliably proc crit surge every second for very strong healing (replicating some of the most toxic builds ever seen in the game).
4. Aedric Spear - lacks sustain but has insane pressure and a lot of nice damage + mitigation abilities/passives that work well on any build.
5. Keep Dark Magic - the things stamsorc used from this line haven't been touched, and for those skilled enough (or with low enough ping), this line is a nice mix between AC and RL.

As an almost exclusive PVE player, I largely speak from that perspective. I don't play PVP aside from farming transmutes during MYM, so can't really speak to any strengths or weaknesses aside from what I see talked about here or on Discord. All I know is that Sorc has gotten kicked in the balls harder than any class from a refusal to try and properly segment the class strengths and random uncalled for nerfs with no actual buffs to anything of use.

gc0018 · July 25

Oh, please don't debunk the bubble.
Devs need sth to show that they know more than the players to maintain their superiority or how could they convince the company to pay them / convince themselves they have a meaningful career?

MashmalloMan · July 26

Just move it to Exploitation..

"When you cast a Dark Magic skill, grant Minor Prophecy to you and your allies for 20s. Additionally, you gain 10% Max Stamina or Max Magicka for 20s based on whichever max resource is higher."

Hell, if it was on Exploitation, I'd still consider 10s instead of 20s a win. This cast a Dark Magic skill at full health nonsense in combination with a low duration is the problem. Either do 20s at full health or 10s at any health if Exploitation is somehow too OP in their twisted view.

I'm not sure why they force a triple conditional bonus when you have passives from Arcanist give 284 ws damage for 10s, just for recovering stamina or magicka, when that passively happens every 2s due to mag and Stam recovery lol. A bonus which is arguably much stronger for most builds and requires 0 effort.

Honestly why is it even a duration at all? If you think about it, there could potentially be some overlap situations where you can get both buffs at the same time and I don't think that was the intention. This would mostly only happen to tanks or PvP builds where you're not stacking high resources so they're close, but imagine you have a set bonus on your front bar with Magicka, so your Stamina is higher on back bar. Cast a Dark Magic skill on back bar, get the 10%, go to front, get the 10% when your Magicka set kicks in. Why even produce a situation where this can happen?

madmufffin · July 26

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Just move it to Exploitation..

"When you cast a Dark Magic skill, grant Minor Prophecy to you and your allies for 20s. Additionally, you gain 10% Max Stamina or Max Magicka for 20s based on whichever max resource is higher."

Hell, if it was on Exploitation, I'd still consider 10s instead of 20s a win. This cast a Dark Magic skill at full health nonsense in combination with a low duration is the problem. Either do 20s at full health or 10s at any health if Exploitation is somehow too OP in their twisted view.

I'm not sure why they force a triple conditional bonus when you have passives from Arcanist give 284 ws damage for 10s, just for recovering stamina or magicka, when that passively happens every 2s due to mag and Stam recovery lol. A bonus which is arguably much stronger for most builds and requires 0 effort.

Honestly why is it even a duration at all? If you think about it, there could potentially be some overlap situations where you can get both buffs at the same time and I don't think that was the intention. This would mostly only happen to tanks or PvP builds where you're not stacking high resources so they're close, but imagine you have a set bonus on your front bar with Magicka, so your Stamina is higher on back bar. Cast a Dark Magic skill on back bar, get the 10%, go to front, get the 10% when your Magicka set kicks in. Why even produce a situation where this can happen?

I mean it's going form a passive benefit from having a skill slotted on either bar to being a proc condition with stupid conditions. There's really no reason for it not to be a static value or at the very least something very easy like cast a dark magic skill every 10s.

AtriaKhorist · July 27

Keep it simple. Static bonus. No silly condition.

But frankly, given this is moving extra stats from one weak skill line to another weak skill line without being enough to make it valuable I'm going to say to drop the idea entirely and get back to the drawing board.

Both Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic need a boost. Weakening one even further just to not boost the other enough is ridiculous.

Lebensf0rm · July 28

I'm happy with a simple, static bonus to mag and stam on Blood Magic, but Muffin is right that that still isn't going to save the line in PvE. Even a conditional bonus with much higher values probably wouldn't move the needle much.